The Astral Pulse

World Cultures, Traditions and Religions => Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! => Topic started by: Ryuji on February 07, 2006, 11:37:33



Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Ryuji on February 07, 2006, 11:37:33
Christianity...

From Leyla if person dont mind :)

Quote
WHO CARRIED THE CROSS?

-Mark 15:21 Simon of Cyrene. (Matt 27:32 and Luke 23:26 agree with Mark) Simon carried it, by himself.
-John 19:17 says "JESUS himself carried the cross."
(No where does it say the cross was carried by both men. According to the gospel, it is either one or the other.)

DID EITHER OF THE TWO THIEVES BELIEVE JESUS?

-Matt 27:44 says niether one believes
-Mark 15:32 niether one believes
-Luke 23:39-41 one does not, but one DOES
(only one gospel out of four has the famous conversion story)

HOW LONG WAS JESUS IN THE TOMB?

(remember jews count days from sundown to sundown)
-Matt 28:1 Three days and two nights
-Mark 16:2 Three days and two nights
-Luke 24:1 Three days and two nights
-John 20:1 Two days and two nights

*WHY IS HIS TIME IN THE TOMB SO IMPORTANT?*
Because it means he was not the true Messiah.

In Matt 12:38-40 he said he would remain in the tomb for THREE days and THREE nights, and that would be the sign he was the true messiah. Jesus did not fullfill his own prophecy.

IS MARY PERMITTED TO TOUCH JESUS AFTER THE RESURRECTION?

-Luke 24:39 Yes "Behold my hands and feet..handle me and see."
-John 20:17 No "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my father."

WHO WAS AT THE TOMB, AND WHAT DID THEY SEE WHEN THEY GOT THERE?

-Matt 28 Mary Magdalene and the other Mary saw one angel.
-Mark 16 Mary Magdalene, Mary mother of James, and Salome saw a young man in white.
-Luke 24 Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the other women that were with them saw two men in shining garments
-John 20 Mary Magdalene saw two angels in white.

WHERE DID THE DISCIPLES MEET THE RESURRECTED JESUS

-Matt 28:6-7 "Galilee"
-Luke 2433-36 "Jerusalem"
(They are about seventy five miles apart)

HOW MANY DISCIPLES DID JESUS HAVE?

-MARK 3:16-19 THIRTEEN
(Simon/Peter, Andreas/Nester, Iakobos bar zebedaios, Ioannes bar zebedaios, phillippos, thomas, judas the iskariot, bar Tholomaios, maththaios, lewis bar halphaios, iakobos bar halphaios, thaddaios, Simon the Kananite zealot)
-MATTHEW 10:2-4 TWELVE
(Simon/Peter, Andreas/Nester, Iakobos bar zebedaios, Ioannes bar zebedaios, phillippos, thomas, judas the iskariot, bar Tholomaios, maththaios the tax collector, iakobos bar halphaios, lebbaios thaddaios, simon the Kananite zealot)
-LUKE 6:13-16 THIRTEEN
(Simon/Peter, Andreas/Nester, Iakobos bar zebedaios, Ioannes bar zebedaios, phillippos, thomas, judas the iskariot, bar Tholomaios, maththaios, lewis the tax collector, iakobos bar halphaios, judus bar Iakobos, simon the Kananite zealot)
-JOHN only mentions NINE
(Simon/Peter, Andreas/Nester, Iakobos bar zebedaios, Ioannes bar zebedaios, phillippos, thomas the twin, judas bar simon the iskariot,
Ioudas, Nathanael of Kana)


Quote
"The MESSIAH" & CHRIST
Messiah from Hebrew Masiah & Aramaic Meshina, is literally expected king and deliverer of the Jews, not the son of Yahweh/God! Christ is from the Greek Christos. literally meaning, anointed. Every single Jewish king was a "Christ" it simply meant annointed. A new king was anointed with oil at his coronation.

It does not mean "son of God". The Messiah was NOT supposed to be God, only a really great hero-priest-King. They wanted a hero/rebel to lead the rebellion against Rome.(deleted from Bible by Roman writers, although traces remain) It should be noted that "THE Messiah" is different from "Messiah" which is the Hebrew word that we get the Greek "Christos" from. They mean the same thing. Yep, "David" was a messiah too.

JESUS WAS "VOTED" A GOD IN 325CE.
Like in most of Christianity; a bunch of old Roman politicians took votes to determine the course of the new religion. Yeshua was voted a God, rather than a prophet at the council of Nicea in 325C.E. he was de-deified and re-deified twice and was a god permanently in 380, this was about politics. Yeshua never thought he was God.

JESUS DENIES HE IS GOD
Apparently the council of Nicea missed this one. "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one and that is God." And again, "Why callest thou me good? None is good, save one, and that is God." (Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19)
When questioned on this verse, one Christian actually told me: "Jesus Lied."

BUT JESUS TALKS ABOUT BEING GOD IN THE BIBLE!
Well lets take a look, shall we?

BAR-NASHA - Jesus called himself "bar nasha" "son of man" 28 times. It means in the three Semitic languages "a human being"

BAR-DALAHA - "Son of God" (oh, oh, they got us here huh? -nah) In the Aramaic-Semitic language "bar-dalaha", "God's son", "God's child" is used many ways and may refer to an orphan, peacemaker, etc. You see it must be understood that the term "bar" does not mean "son" in a literal way it refers to a likeness, and a special relationship. Never in Hebrew scripture or in the New Testament does it refer to a physical relationship. Easterners will use the term "son" as like saying "beloved" [the very idea of a actual sonship from God was seen as blasphemy to Jews, but not to Romans, hmmm]

EHEDAYA- "the only begotten son" (lest they throw this at ya, here it is) Jesus never claimed to be God's only son, that claim was made by others, and found only in the Gospel of John. John has it as a translation of the Greek "monogenes" which is two words, singular and kind, when put together mean "one of a kind" I don't want to get into the breaking down of the Greek, suffice to say, it is an improper translation. A better rendering would be "unique son". It does not even come close to meaning what Christians think it means.



small one from me :P
Quote
NT
I Corinthians 13:4 - love is not jealous

OT
Exodus 20:5 for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God
Malachi 3:6 I the LORD do not change.


dont have on other religions as i havnt seen posts about them or read for example the quran 100x times over :/

it would be interisting to have other religions here with there contradictions
and please dont go and flame each other this for study and not anti-some-religion :)

Peace and love
Ryu


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Ryuji on February 09, 2006, 08:27:14
Quran

# What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?

   1. "Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2).
   2. "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
   3. "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59).
   4. "But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
   5. "He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).

# Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?

   1. "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256).
   2. "And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith," (9:3).
   3. "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5).
   4. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued," (9:29).

# The first Muslim was Muhammad?  Abraham?  Jacob? Moses?

   1. "And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12).
   2. "When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143).
   3. "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).

# Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?

   1. Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48).  Also 4:116
   2. The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority," (4:153).

# Are Allah's decrees changed or not?

   1. "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
   2. "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all, (6:115).
   3. None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" (2:106).
   4. When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not," (16:101).

# Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?

   1. "We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)!  This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92).
   2. Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!"  So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-103).

# Is wine consumption good or bad?

   1. O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper," (5:90).
   2. (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15).
   3. Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed," (83:22-25).


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Leyla on February 10, 2006, 08:42:54
Interesting.

I find it strange that Moslems get to "sin" in heaven.


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Leyla on February 10, 2006, 08:45:38
*double post*


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Gandalf on February 11, 2006, 15:49:54
JESUS WAS "VOTED" A GOD IN 325CE.
Like in most of Christianity; a bunch of old Roman politicians took votes to determine the course of the new religion. Yeshua was voted a God, rather than a prophet at the council of Nicea in 325C.E. he was de-deified and re-deified twice and was a god permanently in 380, this was about politics. Yeshua never thought he was God.




The council of Nicea was not 'a bunch of old roman polititians taking votes to determine the course of the new religion'.

The council of Nicea WAS convened by Emperor Constantine who had converted to christianity and once in command of the Roman world summoned all the leading figures of the Christian Church from all corners of the Empire to Nicea to hammer out with each other the finished, official 'be all and end all' doctrine of the Christian Church, which up until that time had differed in certain ways depending on where it was based.
Constantine hoped that the new religion would prove to be a powerful tool to unify the Empire and in that he was right, but the uniformity of doctrine he hoped would come out of the Council of Nicea was never completely realised and doctrinal divisions continued to rock the new Church for centuries, and still continue to this day.
The Council of Nicea was one of the most significant moments in European history and helped shape its culture and politics, paving the way for the medieval world of the future.

It is true that bishops resolved issues through the vote but this has always been the case with the Church. After all, it is a human organisation like any other, however the voters were bishops and many were the early Church Fathers whose doctrines laid the foundations of the Christian religion.

Doug


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Beth on February 12, 2006, 02:26:26
Most all of the contradictions within the Christian bible can be explained by the research that I have been working on for the past five years.  Soon to be released as an e-book, I show where the literary tool of 'proper name wordplay' was used by four different writers to ultimately come up with what we now know as 'The Four Synoptic Gospels'.  

In short, biblical proper names were created to have certain lexical meanings.  When four different writers use the same list of proper names for the characters in their stories, and each writer utilizes the lexical meanings that make certain key motifs and other narrative details possible, then what you get is four generally agreeable versions of the same story with only a few details that differ.  

As a result of this finding, biblical contradictions and inconsistencies can be easily explained as individual creative license on the part of each writer...and...when writing 'fiction' that is a totally acceptable thing to occur.

The bible was a multilingual storybook; not the word of a God, or even the 'history' of any peoples.  The biblical characters were totally fictional, from Adam and Eve, to Abraham and the Hebrews, to Jacob and the Twelve Tribes of Israel, to Jesus and the disciples.  This is why the world's desert diggers can't find anything to support the biblical accounts...it is all fiction...quite good fiction for the ancient period in which it was written, but fiction nonetheless.

~Beth

p.s. I will let everyone know when the e-book is available.  I am doing my final, final edit  :grin:


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Leyla on February 12, 2006, 10:53:18
Quote
Gandalf: The council of Nicea WAS convened by Emperor Constantine who had converted to christianity and once in command of the Roman world summoned all the leading figures of the Christian Church from all corners of the Empire to Nicea to hammer out with each other the finished, official 'be all and end all' doctrine of the Christian Church


Woah, hold on there Nelly.

There was an Evil emperor of Rome named Constantine. He killed his own wife and son by boiling them in oil. He also killed his father in law, brother in law and "many others" according to a chronicler. His first wife Minervina, a priestess of the moon goddess Minervina, mysteriously disappeared. No one knows what became of her. Soon after he killed Crispus, his son by the vanished Minervina, and also his second wife Fausta, whom he accused of having an affair with Crispus.

Finally the Priests of Rome, who worshiped the Sun God, Mithra, came to him and said, Constantine, you are such an evil man, even though you are Emperor, you cannot go to heaven. Sorry, but Mithra isn't going to forgive you your sins.

Constantine had heard of a religion going around that was started by a man named Paul. It was called "Christianity" and it taught that no matter what you had done in your life you need only be baptized and you would attain forgiveness. He threw out the Mithratic Priests at once and converted all of Rome to Christianity. He kept a Christian priest at his bedside at all times, with strict orders to baptize him upon his death bed. He happily continued upon his sinful ways.

As Roman, he did not believe that Jesus was the son of the Jewish God Yahweh. He believed that Jesus was the son of Mithra, his old God!

The Roman writers of the bible he appointed even slip this in during the crucifixion scene. The Roman that pierces his side is suddenly converted when the sun goes dark and refuses to shine. Then he cries "Truly this was she son of God!" Mithra, was the Roman Sun God.

Like most fourth Century Councils, the Council of Nicea was rigged. For 300 years previous Jesus was believed to be a human King by Christian Orthadoxy; but Constantine made sure his appointed "trinity" minority declaired Jesus God before the monotheistic majority could even reach Nicea.

Ten years later Jesus was back to human status at the Council at Tyre. He remained human for three years. Then the councils at Antioch Sardica and Sirminum restored him back to being God.

Then, The council of Rimini in 360 took away his God status and again made him human. The final dicision of Jesus-is-God took place at the council of Constantinople in 380, when he was declaired God at the same time Emperor Theodosius made it illegal to argue with the Church, and outlawed all mythologies but his own.

And there it has stayed ever since.


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Beth on February 12, 2006, 20:13:55
For the most part, Leyla, you are correct.  Constantine was NOT a Christian throughout his life, although he was baptized upon his deathbed.  His bedside conversion should be a huge clue as to the major loop-hole that Christianity contains, i.e., no matter what you do, as long as you convert, even on your deathbed, you are SAVED.

Constantine pretty much sat back during these councils and let the various Christian Bishops, representing quite a few very different positions on Christian Doctrine, hash everything out.  But he was shrewd enough to see that in order to get EVERYONE to follow HIM, he needed a religion/God that would appeal to ALL of the masses involved.  It is recorded that he did want to include Mithraism into the tenets of Christianity, such as the Dec 24 birthday of the son of the god, as well as the official day of worship to be what became 'SUN-DAY'.  There were also a few Mithraic/Roman festivals that he had worked into the scheme.  Now at some point he did tire of the never-ending debates between the Christian Bishops and did call a halt to the discussions...at that point it did concretize to a certain extent, but the other dissenting sects just went out on their own and survived as best as they could as heretics.

The ultimate development of Christianity, however, was not an overnight thing.
Quote from: Leyla
...And there it has stayed ever since.
 Only until the Reformation and the Enlightenment.  In addition to the development of Protestantism, Catholic Christianity did go through a more academic phase which revamped its spiritual tenets which we find with St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila.  These 'mystics' were sanctioned by the Church, and allowed a lot of latitude in their interpretation of scripture, albeit that they were sequestered within monestary walls, where 'biblical symbolism' was allowed to take presendence over a literal understanding. Unfortunately, most of this revamping never reached the masses on any great scale.  

Today, there are so many branches of Christianity that many Christians are totally clueless of what other Christians believe, and in order to avoid standing up against other Christians, the majority allow for fundamental extremists to speak for everyone.  We are seeing this same thing within Islam now...

IMHO, I think the biggest obstacle that Christianity is facing, because of its immature belief in fantastical fictional stories, is that Jesus was made the same as God in their doctrine.  As I introduce my research to different kinds of people, and they hear me explain how Jesus was a fictional character, the first question that some people ask me is:  "Well, do you not believe in God then?"    

The first few times this happened, I was totally taken aback!!  I always thought that my research would open Christianity up to a more spiritual way of looking at life, both mundane and divine, through the movement from a literal belief to a symbolic understanding..........but.......now I am not quite so sure, or even hopeful at this point.  As Jesus 'goes away' into the category of a fictional character, 'God' and 'divine belief' may well go to the wayside as well...

I cannot be sure of course, but if Christianity experiences a major fall, then 'anarchy' may well be 'loosed upon the earth' by those who believe the absurd idea that Jesus was actually God of the entire Universe.  The best that we can hope for is the simultaneous evolution of a more Rational World to be there to maintain rational control...

~Beth


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Ryuji on February 13, 2006, 07:57:35
beth + lelay ==  :shock:

hehehe

anywhays, where does the deciding on the selection of the bible canon then fits in and the Gnosis people ?

Blessings and Peace
Ryu


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Donal on February 13, 2006, 08:52:48
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbpointsofview/F1951566?thread=1125576

this is a good discussion on Nicea.


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Ryuji on February 13, 2006, 09:18:49
Donal. thanks was interisting from that heres something

Flat  Earth in the Bible?
http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/Flat_Earth.htm

Blessings,
ryu


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: ubiquitous on February 13, 2006, 10:51:38
I watched a program saying there was a good possibility that jesus's ma was raped.
Anyone hear of this??????

ubiqer


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Beth on February 13, 2006, 13:37:33
Just another attempt to explain one of the claims that a literal reading of the bible makes.  

My advice:  Pay no attention to that stuff...

Peace,
Beth


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Leyla on February 14, 2006, 02:31:36
Beth

When I said "And there it has stayed ever since" I specifically meant the belief that Jesus is God. The churches may disagree with one another violently, but that point they all believe.

Quote
As I introduce my research to different kinds of people, and they hear me explain how Jesus was a fictional character, the first question that some people ask me is: "Well, do you not believe in God then?"
The first few times this happened, I was totally taken aback!! I always thought that my research would open Christianity up to a more spiritual way of looking at life.


Yes, I am going through this now, with someone on this board. I was sharing my research, which I thought was interesting and would be welcomed. After all, it came from a Strongs Bible Dictionary, the same one they use in Christian Universities.  

Instead the person claimed to be "personally victimized" by the information (???) and wrote God had abandoned me and I was doomed to live a life of misery and suffering.  :roll:

I think that this comes from the belief they have the "One True Faith." All other religions are "False." If Christianity isn't real, then nothing is real.

So, when Christian beliefs are disproved (which is not hard to do) they break down in to a psychological crisis and start thinking there is no God.


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Beth on February 14, 2006, 03:47:34
Leyla,

I personally understand how difficult it is to get Christians to think outside of their well established doctrines long enough to see how irrational their beliefs are.  I also understand 'that tremendous need' to 'make people see' what is so clearly right before all our eyes.  But I am learning that humans have to learn to crawl before they can stand up on their own, and they must be able to stand up on their own before they can walk.  Extend this metaphor to 'rational thinking'.  

And you are right Leyla, it is becoming easier and easier to disassemble the biblical narratives to show that they are not what they have been held to be for so many centuries.  These proofs are coming from many different places, in many different ways, so a great deal of time and patience will be required of us all.  Personally, it has taken me many years and a great deal of academic study to figure out all that I have, and there is still a great deal that I do not as yet understand.

IMHO, every Christian should be required to own a copy of Strong's and be required to study it in detail!!! :reading:  That, in and of itself would change a lot of things, but even then it would not happen overnight.  

I am interested to know what your research entails...give me a thread and I can read up on it, or you can summarize here...

Thanks,
Beth


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Leyla on February 14, 2006, 03:56:23
Well, there are chuncks of it on the Volcano thread, which has now been locked because one person feels victimized. All I did was quote Bible verses and Strongs.  

I asked him to stop reading the thread since it was upsetting him so badly, but he would not and has ruined it for the rest of us.


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Beth on February 14, 2006, 04:09:24
Welllll....I would have to disagree with your volcano theory, on the grounds that I do not take the biblical narratives as literal accounts...of virtually all of its claims.  

I have found that the bible is full of metaphors, symbols, allegories, similies, allusions, etc., and through a study of both the Greek and Semitic languages, as well as some Latin, that the meanings of all of these things can be determined to be quite different than the narrative stories reveal; I am finding a very different understanding of scripture in doing so.  

As for the quotations you used to support your theory, several of them, I think are referring to the Logos, or 'Reason', oftentimes described as the 'element of fire' and also known as the 'Mind of God'.

But that's just my two-cents worth...

~Beth


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Beth on February 14, 2006, 04:21:14
p.s.  If it is Mustardseed that is being so offended, well, all I can say Leyla, is he can be a really 'tough nut' but he has also really come a long way over the past few years!  Like I said, it will take time Leyla...and A LOT of PATIENCE....

p.s.s. .....hey mustardseed !!! :flowers: how's it going?  Are you back to causing 'astral angst' again ????  :naughty:   :heartsmile:


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Leyla on February 14, 2006, 04:26:43
Well, I did suggest to the group to lay off of him, because I know learning new things must be very painful to him, it is flying in the face of what he has always belived.

It's clear from the text that this is a real life physical mountain they are talking about. Not a symbolic or figurative one. Bible scholars have postulated for years the location of this original "mount of god;"so we know it is not a mystical metaphor.

Borrowed from paker7 http://www.biblicalheritage.org/Archaeology/eden.htm

“The Biblical word gan (as in Gan Eden) means `walled garden,’ ” Rohl continues, "and the valley is indeed walled in by towering mountains." The highest of these is Mt. Sahand, a snow-capped extinct volcano that Rohl identifies as the Prophet Ezekiel’s Mountain of God, where the Lord resides among `red-hot coals’ (Ezekiel 28:11-19). Cascading down the once-fiery mountain, precisely echoing Ezekiel, is a small river, the Adji Chay (the name of which also translates in local dialect as ‘walled garden’). The locals still hold the mountain sacred, Rohl says, and attribute magical powers to the river’s water.

Consider the very primitive mind set of the people who wrote the Old Testamant. They were the same as the modern Fundamentalist Moslems you see on the news, shooting off guns and dancing in dirt streets.

They didn't write the Old Testamant as any kind of "mystical metaphore." In there minds these writings were "Gods Truth," the only truth, and they would have you stoned to death for suggesting otherwise.

I think the "mystical metaphore" theory is a way for modern Christians to escape all the blood, gore and clearly immoral actions attributed to God in the Bible.

It is so much easier to think it wasn't meant to be taken literally, and that none of the butchery really happened, when in fact, it was written to be taken literally, and the butchery was real.


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Leyla on February 14, 2006, 04:36:03
Also, the two chunks of Quotes at the beginning of this post were borrowed from me. (Contradictions in the ressurection/burial story, and Jesus says he wasn't God)


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Ryuji on February 14, 2006, 07:10:16
Leyla
Quote
Also, the two chunks of Quotes at the beginning of this post were borrowed from me. (Contradictions in the ressurection/burial story, and Jesus says he wasn't God)


i am sure you dont mind :))

umm just stay with contridicitons related if possible here  :cool:

apart from the Quran i havn't had the time this week to find more on other religions.

Peace and Love
Ryu

~You are your only limit.


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Leyla on February 15, 2006, 06:05:48
No I don't mind, you refrenced me and gave me credit.  I was just answering Beths question.
Quote
Beth: I am interested to know what your research entails...give me a thread and I can read up on it, or you can summarize here...


(I had already summarized here. She must have just must have missed it.)


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Ryuji on February 15, 2006, 12:31:27
Beth/Leyla is there any place where i can read up on council of Nicea the voting account and the doings of Emperor Constantine's.

did the rabi's then do magick or and kabbalah which seems very hebrewish.
 

Thanks,
Ryu


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Beth on February 15, 2006, 13:41:50
Dear Ryu,

There is a good general place you can go that you can search almost any topic pertaining to the ancient doings of Christianity:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/

You won't find everything that you may be looking for in there, but you can search by most any topic, e.g., Councils, or specifically Nicea, Church Fathers, Mithraism, Easter, or any person such as Constantine, Clement, Jerome, Augustine, Origin, etc.  

It is a very valuable resource for these topics...and be sure to follow any other links that an article may provide.

As far as magic and kaballah, yes, the ancients (not just rabbis) practiced many kinds of magic, mainly due to the fact that their belief systems were full of superstitions that allowed for that kind of thing, as well as experimenting into those powers that surround us that are not superstitious.  The formal Kabbalah did not form until the medieval period, and this was certainly within the ranks of Jewish Rabbi's by then, but the name itself means 'tradition' so they no doubt kept alive a lot things that the ancients had studied and practiced, albeit that they updated it to medieval world thought.

Go to: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/index.jsp  and again, search most any topic, e.g., magic, Kabbalah, superstition, etc.
 
And when searching for these topics, any .edu site is pretty reliable because they have been required to do their homework...

That is not to say that other sites are not informative, just be careful until you can verify certain claims with reputable back-up data or you may be lead astray. Verifiable resources are 'outside of the bible ancient written sources' so be sure to check any and all footnotes provided.  If there is no backup supporting documentation, then it may well be just a conjecture made by someone without any supporting information....and A LOT of wild conjectures are being made all the time...

Happy Hunting!!
Beth


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: CFTraveler on February 15, 2006, 14:45:15
Any good college library would have information on the Nicene(Nicean?) council, although when I was in college it was in the restricted section.  Besides the above lookups you can also look up the Arian Heresy, and Irenaus.  (He was one of the bishops involved in the forming of catholic (ancient christian) policy.


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Abraham on March 11, 2006, 06:33:46
Quote
Quran

# What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?

   1. "Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2).
   2. "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
   3. "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59).
   4. "But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
   5. "He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).


lol. That is very ignorant. Those are all stages of development. They are all mentioned in several verses(to make sense of it):


"And indeed We created man (Adam) out of an extract of clay (water and earth).

Thereafter We made him (the offspring of Adam) as a Nutfah (mixed drops of the male and female sexual discharge) (and lodged it) in a safe lodging (womb of the woman).

Then We made the Nutfah into a clot (leech-like substance), then We made the clot into a little lump of flesh, then We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators. " [Surah Mu'minoon ayaat 12-14]



O mankind! If you are in doubt about the Resurrection, then verily! We have created you (i.e. Adam) from dust, then from a Nutfah (mixed drops of male and female sexual discharge i.e. offspring of Adam), then from a clot (leech-like substance) then from a little lump of flesh, some formed and some unformed (miscarriage), that We may make (it) clear to you (i.e. to show you Our Power and Ability to do what We will)." [Surah Al-Hajj aayah 5]

Allah created the first human (Adam) out of the dust and clay, and He created his children in the wombs of the mother through the stages that were listed. Im sure if yout ry hard enough you can 'make up your own contradictions'.


 

Quote
# Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?

   1. "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256).
   2. "And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith," (9:3).
   3. "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5).
   4. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued," (9:29).


As for the fourth verse, in no way does it contradict the first verse "There is no compulsion in religion" It dose not call to force non-Muslims to Islam, but rather until they pay jizyah and feel themselves subdued(accept the authority of the Islamic state).

As for the third verse that you posted, and the second, the problem is you omitted the verse in the middle of them(they are in the same chapter), which clearly state that the 'forcing' was only to be done against those who broke a treaty.

And a declaration from Allah and His Messenger to mankind on the greatest day (the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah - the 12th month of Islamic calendar) that Allah is free from (all) obligations to the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) and so is His Messenger. So if you (pagans) repent, it is better for you, but if you turn away, then know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allah. And give tidings (O Muhammad ) of a painful torment to those who disbelieve.

Except those of the pagans with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves  the pious

So when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:3-5).

Its funny how you try to find contradictions, but twisting the text and omitting verses, but in the end it they are just lies.


Quote
# The first Muslim was Muhammad?  Abraham?  Jacob? Moses?

   1. "And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12).
   2. "When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143).
   3. "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).


The third verses makes no reference that they would be the first.

The second verse is Moses (peace be upon him) saying " I am the first to believe" in the sense that noone else will see God in this life. This is what was said regarding the verse by many commentators and companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him).

As for the first verse, Allah revealed different shareeahs(sets of laws) for different Prophets. As Allah says in another verse "To each nation We prescribe a way" . So in a lingustic sense it means that the Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) is the first to submit to the way hat Allah revealed to him for his people(that abrogated the laws that came before it). And to show you im not just making up this interpretation, then another verse of similarity can clarify it for you:

(161. Say: "Truly, my Lord has guided me to a straight path, a right religion, the religion of Abrahom, monotheism, and he was not of the pagans.") (162. Say: "Verily, my prayer, my sacrifice, my living, and my dying are for Allah, the Lord of all that exists.'') (163. "He has no partner. And of this I have been commanded, and I am the first of the Muslims."

Notice how Allah mentions Abraham and that they are upon the same message, and that they are both upon Islaam, but the Prophet Muhammad sws is the first of the Muslims of his nation.

For a fuller explanation by a classical Islamic scholar : http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=6&tid=17347

Quote
# Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?

   1. Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48).  Also 4:116
   2. The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority," (4:153).



Allah forgave them because they had repented before death, but if one die upon shirk(associating partners with Allah) then Allah will never forgive you.

"Say: "(Allah says) My Slaves who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah, verily Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

"And turn in repentance and in obedience with true Faith (Islamic Monotheism) to your Lord and submit to Him, (in Islam), before the torment comes upon you, then you will not be helped. " [Surah Az-Zumar 53-54]

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said "Whoever dies while stille invoking other than Allah will enter hellfire, and whoever dies while invoking Allah alone(and noone else) will enter paradise."
 


Quote

# Are Allah's decrees changed or not?

   1. "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
   2. "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all, (6:115).
   3. None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" (2:106).
   4. When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not," (16:101).


The issue is simply a misunderstanding of what it means when it says "none can change His words." He clears states in the other verses that it is He who substittues one revelation for another, not any human being, jinn, or creation. Likewise, It is His Decree that He should change some of the revelation and none can change that.

Quote
# Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?

   1. "We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)!  This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92).
   2. Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!"  So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-103).


The first verse is actually a miracle that testifies to the Truth of the Qur'an and in no way contradicts the second. The Pharoah who was drowned was found in the ocean by archealogists in egypt and they have his body preserved.

Quote
# Is wine consumption good or bad?

   1. O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper," (5:90).
   2. (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15).
   3. Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed," (83:22-25).[/


Another ridiculous claim. The wine in paradise is not an intoxicant.  Proof for this are in the verses:

"They will be served by immortal boys,
With cups, and jugs, and a glass from the flowing wine,
Wherefrom they will get neither any aching of the head, nor any intoxication. "
[Surah Waaqiah ayaat 17-19]


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Beth on March 11, 2006, 15:44:07
My response to this is the same as the one just posted in another thread:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=190386#190386

~Beth


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Gandalf on March 12, 2006, 01:17:16
Abraham_

Take a chill pill mate.

btw I am a pagan and i'm comin 'atcha like a wicker-man on fire!

My Neo-Platonist philosophy & theology allowed for the very development of your religion so put that in a pipe and smoke it!


 :wink:


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Abraham on March 12, 2006, 04:03:21
Quote from: Gandalf
Abraham_

Take a chill pill mate.

btw I am a pagan and i'm comin 'atcha like a wicker-man on fire!

My Neo-Platonist philosophy & theology allowed for the very development of your religion so put that in a pipe and smoke it!


 :wink:



I have seen you make that claim a few times on this forum. I'd like to see where you have got such an idea from(that platonist philosophy played any role in Islam).

Thanks,

Abraham


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Beth on March 12, 2006, 05:47:40
Abraham,

While Gandalf can certainly speak for himself, and I hope he does, I can say right now that Judaism, Christianity and Islam would not exist if not for Platonism.  In fact, unlike Judaism and Christianity, Islam is additionally dependent upon Aristotle as well.  

You want proof???....Read something besides the Quran and Surah... read something academic, like the history of religions in the western/near/middle eastern world...study some of the ancient Islamic philosophers such as Averroe:  

Averroe--1126*1198 also Ibn-Rushd Spanish-Arab philosopher & physician; wrote philosophical works (ca. 1179), especially commentaries on Aristotle, on Plato's Republic; chief reconciler of Islamic and Greek thought.

If you want proof of the things that we talk about...do your homework.   STUDY about the world that you live in...not just your religion.  

We have done our homework; it is not our job to do your homework for you.


~Beth


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Abraham on March 12, 2006, 06:52:48
Quote from: Beth
Abraham,

While Gandalf can certainly speak for himself, and I hope he does, I can say right now that Judaism, Christianity and Islam would not exist if not for Platonism.  In fact, unlike Judaism and Christianity, Islam is additionally dependent upon Aristotle as well.  

You want proof???....Read something besides the Quran and Surah... read something academic, like the history of religions in the western/near/middle eastern world...study some of the ancient Islamic philosophers such as Averroe:  

Averroe--1126*1198 also Ibn-Rushd Spanish-Arab philosopher & physician; wrote philosophical works (ca. 1179), especially commentaries on Aristotle, on Plato's Republic; chief reconciler of Islamic and Greek thought.

If you want proof of the things that we talk about...do your homework.   STUDY about the world that you live in...not just your religion.  

We have done our homework; it is not our job to do your homework for you.

~Beth


Good thing you brought up the 'Islamic philosophers and thinkers.' For in reality, these 'concilers of Islamic and Greek thought were completely refuted by scholars such as Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Qayyim(May Allah have mercy on them).  Greek thought is based upon speculation and conjecture free from any revelation. This is conisdered to be complete disbelief and blasphemuy. Islam is based upon revelation from the Lord of the Heavens and the Earth which can be applied in accordance with the intellect. The difference is our refernce point is the revelation, and their reference point is their own intellect.

Greek philosophers used to claim that universe always existed. Such claims were stated by the pagans of makkah(mecca) and are a common type of disbelief:

"And they say: "There is nothing but our life of this world, we die and we live and nothing destroys us except Ad-Dahr (the time). And they have no knowledge of it, they only conjecture. " [Surah Jathiyah verse 24]

The Qur'an is completely against these type of 'philosophies' and clearly stated that true knowledge (of reality) comes from God alone.

They (angels) said: "Glory be to You(O God), we have no knowledge except what you have taught us. Verily, it is You, the All-Knower, the All-Wise." [Surah Al-Baqarah verse 32]


The reality is, the greek works werent  translated and read by Muslims until after the Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and after the development of Islam. These 'thinkers' who tried to reconcile them did so when the dominance of Islam  became weakened and people started to deviate from the religion.

So if you want to talk about greek thought 'developed Islam' then the statements of thinkers who came hundreds of years after the 'development of Islam' cant be used as proof.


-Abraham

    Btw, when I say 'Qur'an and Sunnah', the sunnah arent the 'Surahs' surahs are chapters of the Qur'an. The Sunnah is the example of the Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) [his life, statements, actions, and other revelation that he spoke besides the Qur'an]


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: James S on March 12, 2006, 08:26:19
Ummm.... I dont have anywhere near the historical knowledge of either Beth or Gandalf, and I certainly haven't researched any of this the way that have.

But I do have Google! That pretty much points me in the right direction if I want some basic information like dates, timelines, things like that.

So, If I have a look at a statement like this:
"So if you want to talk about greek thought 'developed Islam' then the statements of thinkers who came hundreds of years after the 'development of Islam' cant be used as proof. "
I can very quickly look up info on Plato - who lived around 400 to 300 BC, and the origins of Islam, which was around 600 to 700 AD.

That all seems pretty straight forward.

I do however understand, having spent 16 years of my life well entrenched in christian dogma, that when one is to appear faithful to one's religion, one must never question the historical or factual contents of one's religious texts. They are after all the True Words of God! One's own god of course. Because the words of any other god are nothing but lies and deceipt. We all know that!

Blessings,
James.


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Gandalf on March 12, 2006, 13:48:12
The problems with all these kind of religions is that they are all very self contained with their own self justifying and internally consistent logic, so when seen from the inside looking out as it were, they are very hard to deny (from their own point of view). Unfortunately this is what actually undermines them as warning lights should start flashing once you actually start thinking outside of the box and look at other religions; you begin to see that they ALL operate this way! This is why hard-core believers of various religions can never come to terms with each other as they are all 100% convinced that theirs is the most logical and righteous 'truth', so much so, that to be perfectly honest, even attempting to have any kind debate is ultimately pointless and achieves nothing.

Abraham_ you really need to look at texts that originate OUTSIDE of the Qu'ran and other Islamic religious texts, otherwise everything you read is simply there to confirm what you already believe! Also, to be worried about doing so because such texts may be 'blasphemous' is ridiculous. Can't you see that such pronouncements are there to curb any kind of questioning on behalf of believers? You do not have a problem with this?

I would say, start reading texts that show other perspectives and don't simply disregard them as 'blasphemous' texts. You may find some of them informative. This reminds me of these pointless debates you often get when fundamentalist Christians and Muslims argue with each other about which text is the most historically accurate and factually
based, using the Bible and the Qu'ran as their sole evidence!!!

Sorry Abraham, that just isn't cutting it. You also typically refuse to see the long Hellenistic tradition out of which Islam evolved, yet you continue to tout Islam as 'the religion of proofs', an often used phrase which only serves to underline Islam's approach of utilising rational discourse and logical reasoning which is itself a direct continuation of the Hellenistic tradition!


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Beth on March 12, 2006, 16:24:21
Abraham wrote:
Quote
Islam is based upon revelation from the Lord of the Heavens and the Earth which can be applied in accordance with the intellect. The difference is our refernce point is the revelation, and their reference point is their own intellect.

What do you think 'revelation' is, if not 'apprehension by the intellect'?

And just where, Abraham, do you think the earliest Islamic writers got the ideas that there even is an intellect that can be in accordance with the earth and heavens, let alone the fact that the intellect could ever apprehend anything of a divine nature at all??

I'll answer this one for you:  Plato and Aristotle.

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the most important message that Mohammed was communciating, was to set a most excellent example of how essential it is for humanity to use its intellect?  

Somehow I don't think that Mohammed would approve of his people 'ceasing to use their own intellects' in favor of totally depending upon his.  

The Quran is an excellent example of applying the intellect to certain revelations (apprehensions by the intellect) that concerned the most pressing issues of the 6th-9th century world.  

Mohammed set an excellent example that we can learn from him:  that is, to apply 'our own intellects' to the most pressing issues concerning the 21st century world that we live in, instead of trying to keep 6th-9th century ideas alive.  

Mohammed thought for himself...Mohammed recognized the need to update the Jewish and Christian ideas that were ancient even in his day, so he took those ideas and applied them to his 6th century world.  I think he would want us to do the same for our 21st century world.  

~Beth


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Gandalf on March 12, 2006, 17:31:03
Beth_

You've basically said it all!

Doug


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Abraham on March 12, 2006, 20:27:41
Quote from: Beth
Abraham wrote:
Quote
Islam is based upon revelation from the Lord of the Heavens and the Earth which can be applied in accordance with the intellect. The difference is our refernce point is the revelation, and their reference point is their own intellect.

What do you think 'revelation' is, if not 'apprehension by the intellect'?
Quote

And just where, Abraham, do you think the earliest Islamic writers got the ideas that there even is an intellect that can be in accordance with the earth and heavens, let alone the fact that the intellect could ever apprehend anything of a divine nature at all??

I'll answer this one for you:  Plato and Aristotle.


The 'earliest Islamic writers' plainly and quite simply derived their entire thinking and basis from the Qur'an and the Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).


Quote
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the most important message that Mohammed was communciating, was to set a most excellent example of how essential it is for humanity to use its intellect?  


Somehow I don't think that Mohammed would approve of his people 'ceasing to use their own intellects' in favor of totally depending upon his.  


The reality is that nothing he said regarding the religion was from himself, but completely from God(as a revelation)

By the star when it goes down, (or vanishes).
Your companion (Muhammad ) has neither gone astray nor has erred.
Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.
It is only an Inspiration that is inspired.
He has been taught (this Qur'an) by one mighty in power [Jibrael (Gabriel)].
free from any defect in body and mind, [then he (Jibrael ­ Gabriel) rose and became stable]. [Tafsir At-Tabari].
While he [Jibrael (Gabriel)] was in the highest part of the horizon,
Then he [Jibrael (Gabriel)] approached and came closer,
And was at a distance of two bows' length or (even) nearer,
So did (Allah) convey the Inspiration to His slave [Muhammad  through Jibrael (Gabriel)].
The (Prophet's) heart lied not (in seeing) what he (Muhammad ) saw.
[Surah An-Najm verses 1-11]

Say (O Muhammad ): "I warn you only by the revelation (from Allah and not by the opinion of the religious scholars and others). But the deaf (who follow the religious scholars and others blindly) will not hear the call, (even) when they are warned "[Surah Anbiya verse 45]


I will answer the rest later i have to go.

-Abraham


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: James S on March 12, 2006, 23:39:24
Quote from: Abraham


The reality is that nothing he said regarding the religion was from himself, but completely from God(as a revelation)


Funny, isn't that exactly what the Christians say about the Bible?
So tell me... Who's right? The Christians or the Muslims?
They both have texts that are the undeniable "true" word of God.
That's why Christian's and Muslims are spending so much time hating and killing each other IN THE NAME OF GOD!!!

Both religions are so convinced that God revealed His Will, the entirety of His wisdom and knowledge, to some guy thousands of years ago, so he doesn't need to tell anyone anything else now, you can just go read it in one of his "True Word of God" books.

What if both Muhummad and Jesus were actually trying to set an example for the rest of us by telling us we don't have to remain bound by religious traditions, but can instead talk to God ourselves!

Now there's a thought! What if we did actually start talking to God ourselves? Nothing miraculous about it, we can all do it.

What if we started thinking "I'm not happy with the way all these religious books keep telling me to hate and kill other people all the time". They all do it! The Qur'an, the Bibile, the Bhagavad Gita, the Book of Mormon, etc.
They all say "ours is the only right way, you must force everyone to believe it, and you'll get big rewards if you kill or die in God's name becase he kills people all the time so it must be right."

What if God wasn't like that at all?
You know what?
Until you stop reading books telling you how to think and start thinking for yourself, start turning to inner "God Given" wisdom and knowledge, start understanding the differences between love and fear, you never will find out who God really is.
You'll only ever be stuck believing what someone else has told you to believe.

Blessings,
James.


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Beth on March 13, 2006, 00:37:05
Abraham wrote:
Quote
The reality is that nothing he said regarding the religion was from himself, but completely from God(as a revelation)
 
Yes and No.  

No, not completely. Mohammed was definately very familiar with both Jewish and Christian scripture; he obviously greatly depended upon it because he quotes it a lot, and...

Yes I agree, in that it can certainly be said that he did receive revelation.  Mohammed opened his mind and 'allowed God to give him revelations' and God did so by 'acting upon Mohammed's intellect'.  Therefore, Mohammed was able to 'receive revelations' which is the same thing as 'using one's intellect to apprehend the divine'.  

Revelation is a two-way street Abraham:  there must be a giver and a receiver.  In the case of Divine revelation, the Divine is the giver and a human intellect is the receiver.  

Mohammed was, no doubt, a very special man, but, no more special than any of the rest of us---if we are willing to live our lives in such a way that 'our intellect is open to God's'.  This is not easy at all.  To live in such a way requires a negation of many things that this physical world is made of---it is just too 'noisy' otherwise.  It is, however, possible, and there have been many 'great thinkers' that also 'received revelation' through the millennia.  Mohammed was probably one of these, but.....Not the only one.  

God Is.  And God decides who will receive revelations.  Humans do not.  

By adhering to these ancient and antiquated religions (all of which are well over 1,000 years old) we have cut our world off from the very source that these religions claim to know so much about.  

'Religion' is blocking any chance of new revelation.  'Religion' has closed the 'mouth of God'.  

I think God is stirring the waters of this world through gradually chipping away at the religions created in 'His Name' in order to allow for 'new revelations'.

~Beth


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Abraham on March 14, 2006, 00:40:18
Quote
No, not completely. Mohammed was definately very familiar with both Jewish and Christian scripture; he obviously greatly depended upon it because he quotes it a lot, and...


As for the Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) being very familar with both Jewish and Christian scripture, this impossible based upon a number of points:

1)The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) did not know how to read or write.

And thou was not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: in that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted."
[Al-Qur’an 29:48]

2) The Arabic translation of the Bible was nott present at the time of the Prophet Muhammad(peacea nd blessings of Allah be upon him). The earliest Arabic version of the Old Testament was in 900 C.E., nearly 200 years after the death of the Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). The oldest Arabic version of the New Testament was not present until 1616 C.E., nearly 1000 years afetr the death of the Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).

3) The knowledge of Jewish scripture was kept secret and hidden by the Jews in Madinah, and the only Christians who were near were in Yemen.

4) The life of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was recorded like an open book, revelation came to him sometimes immediately after someone asked hima question. He was constantly being examined and suoght after by the Pagans of Makkah. And even after all that, they could not point out any instance of secret converstaions with any Jews or Christians to help him.

The similarity of some teachings in the Qur'an and the Bible in no way proves that the Qur'an came from the Bible. But rather, it is an affirmation that the Qur'an is a continuation of God's Message to humanity.

When you come to the conclusion that the Qur'an is from God, then you'll take that above yoru own ideas, your own speculations, your own conjectures, and worship God sincerely based upon what He revealed for humanity.


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Abraham on March 14, 2006, 00:47:23
Quote from: James S
Quote from: Abraham


The reality is that nothing he said regarding the religion was from himself, but completely from God(as a revelation)

Quote

Funny, isn't that exactly what the Christians say about the Bible?
So tell me... Who's right? The Christians or the Muslims?
They both have texts that are the undeniable "true" word of God.
That's why Christian's and Muslims are spending so much time hating and killing each other IN THE NAME OF GOD!!!


Actually that is a little incorrect. I have never heard a Christian completely stand upon teh point the Bible is the undenaible 'true' word of God. In fact, the majority of the New Testament was written by men (John, Mark etc.) and their supposed 'accounts' of Jesus. Likewise, you look into any Bible and you'll find Christian commentators admitting to missing parts, inaccuracies etc. You cannot say any of this about the Qur'an.

You continue by stating 'whta if God was this' 'what if the Prophets were this'. These are your vain desirse. The Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him)'s life was clearly recorded and documented, his message was clear, and his religion was clear. Worship God alone, and Obey His Messengers. The only way we can get to know God Almighty and His Will, is by following those who he sends as Messengers, not by following our own ideas, desires, and opinions.


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Beth on March 14, 2006, 02:05:18
Abraham,

I am weary of trying to get you to use your own intellect.  An intellect, I might add, that Allah gave to you so that you may use it for discernment.  You are not using your gift from God, Abraham.  

If you think that the person who conceived the Quran could not read or write, then you believe in fairy tales.  Even if I were to allow the possibility that the author was illiterate, if you believe that he verbally quoted, verbatum in some cases, from out of both the Old and New Testaments--as a direct revelation from Allah--then, I have the unpleasant task of telling you that Allah was a lover of fiction.  

The Old and New Testaments were a collection of fictional stories put together over a long period of time, by various writers, and as you admit yourself, written by 'man'.  Since you know that at least the NT was written by man, then have you asked yourself why Allah would have given such man-made stuff in the precious task of direct divine revelation??

As to the fact that the bible had to have been consulted in the writing of the Quran, well...I am not going to go into the philological process of the development of languages with you, but I will say that just because there was not a full 'Arabic translation' of the NT during the 5th century (which I question anyway) that does not mean that Arab people of the region did not speak and read Greek and Latin--and those were the primary languages that the bible was written in at the time (and a few other languages as well.)  

During the early centuries of the first millennium, Abraham, the world was a very different place than it is today.  Multi-culturalism was the accepted norm, and most people were at least bi-lingual and some tri-lingual plus some.  I am sure that all educated Arabs knew at least all three of these languages.  

Where you say that the "The knowledge of Jewish scripture was kept secret and hidden by the Jews in Madinah" -- I must point out the Hebrew Bible itself was not compiled until the 7th-8th centuries AD, several centuries after the supposed days of Mohammed!!  Until then, 'Jewish scripture' was found in full in both the Greek Septuagint and the Latin Vulgate.  

Abraham, you are not doing your homework.  You are not even trying to see things from a wider perspective.

By the content of your posts, I must conclude that you are only here to try and convert people to Islam.  You are wasting your time....and MINE.  People that come to the this forum do not want to be converted.  Either they have their own religious beliefs, or they are trying to unwind themselves from the ones that they have been offered.

This is not a religious forum.  We have a religion section only because astral travel and other aspects of our metaphysical reality calls many religious beliefs into question.  Because the reality of astral travel is so profound in a person's life, people come here to learn more about it...and to work out those religious problems that are confounding to them.  I am here to try and help them cope with and try to understand their experiences.  They do not come here looking for a new religion. There are plenty of other forums for that.

~Beth


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Ryuji on March 14, 2006, 07:32:17
Beth
Quote
'Religion' has closed the 'mouth of God'.


exactly spot on. when i got out of the dogma of religion and started to think for myself, live life exploring it asking questions not basing each decision on a book or made up opinions - talking to God on my own and not someone Else's interpretation on what God is saying to me,  my life just get better and better.

I received 3 images when i was starting down this road was rather scary if you think of the fullest of there meanings.

in short:
God was on one side with this HUGE wall that was made out of religion blocking  him out completely with as us on the other side. there was how ever small holes starting to form which was starting to let through God to us.

There was this vast number of people walking down this broad path to the end. on the sides of the path was preachers from various beliefs who was teaching their point of view onto them. They in the end became shackled into it not able to think for themselves just going onwards. Right next to that was a smaller road that was really difficult to follow. The people on that one was very few and was struggling to get somewhere but the more they asked, the more they explored and thinked for themselves they eventually got through - they could however see how the people on the broad path was being shackled by the preachers, but they the shackled could not see that they saw the few people through that they were made to think - blasphemers and evil. In the end narrow was nirvana and the broad one was just pit full that never ended.

I saw a priest. in one hand he had a bible which he was preaching from to a few people and other hand he had a bloodied sword stabbed through the thought of a begging person. He was both preaching and killing at same time.

hmmm bit heavy :)

Blessings,
Ryu


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Beth on March 14, 2006, 23:11:11
Ryuji, since it was your post that spurred me to start the new thread on these kinds of astral experiences, I am glad to see that you reposted it there!

~Beth


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Ryuji on March 15, 2006, 11:20:19
the double post was bit queer but thank goodness for copy and paste :P

Blessings,
Ryu

 :twisted:


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Beth on March 24, 2006, 12:26:27
[This post originated in another thread but is more appropriate here I think!]

Quote from: kamals
"Sufism is experience of life through a method of dealing with life and human relations. This method is based on an understanding of man, which places at one's disposal the means to organize one's relationships and one's learning systems. So instead of saying that Sufism is a body of thought in which you believe certain things and don't believe other things, we say that the Sufi experience has to be provoked in a person. Once provoked, it becomes his own property, rather as a person masters an art." -Seyed Idries Shah, interviewed in Psychology Today, 1975.


From my studies of the earliest Christians (the very earliest Christians!) this was very much the same idea.  They were well educated in all of the philosophies that were available to them, e.g., Greek, Persian, Egyptian, etc., and also included certain eastern philosophies as well, e.g., Indian. This life path was called being a 'Son of Man'.

From what I have gathered, their overall endeavor can be rendered something like this:  learn all that can about everything that you can, and then make up your own mind as to what you think is correct.  With this broad based pedagogical discipline came prayer/meditation to 'God', a practice of good sound ethics--which included harming no one--and through this intellectual, physical, emotional and spiritual discovery, one could be blessed with a 'spiritual chrism', i.e., become a Christian.  This 'chrism' was not something brought about by the 'hand of man', but rather 'by the will/grace of God'.  An accomplishment of experiencing this 'chrism' became known as going from a 'Son of Man' to a 'Son of God'.  

This 'chrism' was definately 'spiritual'--and definately a process--which included experiences of heightened awareness, lucid dreams, OBE and the big-kuhuna...experiencing the 'blinding light' of divinity.  This was known as the 'second chrism', i.e., a baptism by fire/light.  (In some writings, the 'first baptism' was through 'water' as in coming 'through the womb'; so all of humanity had automatically received the 'first chrism'.)

 :grin: Yeppers!  These enlightened folks could actually become 'a Christ', aka, 'an anointed one' and 'their own messiah'. Many of these people became known as 'Gnostics'.

When the 'symbol' of the 'first chrism' was artificially created through 'baptism in/with water' such as the Jordan River, etc., the knowledge of experiencing the 'second chrism' or the 'metaphysical chrism' was eventually lost, and eventually too, 'Gnosticism' was branded as heretical ... and well ... the rest of the story is the sad history of 'Christianity'.  

I think that the reason there was such a dichotomy between the two, is that the 'thinker/feelers' of the period were somewhat secluded from the world at large, spending most of their time studying, and only getting together with other to discuss certain philosophical ideas.  This was actually the 'early church'!!  Get together for a meal, have a glass or two of wine, and 'philosophise'!!  I assume that these 'get-togethers' became more organized, and more people were invited to attend, and well, one thing led to another, and before you know it, the original point was lost.


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: gdo on March 25, 2006, 02:14:35
The truth does not come to earth in just one person or language.  The truth comes  to each person when they are ready.  

If one text seems to contradict another so it is in your daily life.  Things do seem to contradict each other.  

It is not the letter of what is written but the spirit of what is written that is important.  

Keep an open mind and to not attempt to limit the ALL THAT IS by time and space or culture and language.  For if you do that you limit yourself in your own understanding.


Title: contradictions in religions
Post by: Beth on March 29, 2006, 00:50:10
Hey All!

Since this thread is really large, I am going to lock it down.  

I have started a new thread to continue the discussion, titled "More Contradictions in Religion."  

If there is a post that you would like to comment on that is found in this thread, please copy and paste it in a new post on the new thread!!!

Thanks!
~Beth