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World Cultures, Traditions and Religions => Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! => Topic started by: Leyla on March 30, 2006, 09:59:00

Title: Pagan Sex Orgies
Post by: Leyla on March 30, 2006, 09:59:00
So, I'm watching Christian programming and they start talking sh*t about how the pagan Goddess worshipers were a bunch of perverts.

They explained how a man would go to the temple, find a priestess, worship her, (sexually, or course) then make a donation to the temple.

They explained how this act of homage was thought to bring him great magickal benefit and blessings. And draw down fertility upon the land and people.

True, all true. But they were acting like this was somehow a BAD thing. They cast their scorn upon the "lustful" ways of the pagan ancients.

They seemed to have no clue as to why these orgies were a very real necessity. These sexual rituals were not for entertainment.

It was a matter of life or death. Survival was of the human race.

A drought could kill crops, causing thousands to die in a famine. At any moment a disease could roll through and wipe out whole villages. The nutrition was not good. There was no modern medicine as we know it. Infant mortality was high, and the average lifespan was short. If you lived long enough to learn how to walk, you were lucky if you saw your thirtieth birthday.

The goal of all these sexual rites was not merely a good time. The goal was a successful pregnancy. We needed a work force. There were always more people needed, to build, to plant, and to bring in the harvest.

Childbirth was a very dangerous undertaking for our ancestress. Too many births, too close together, coupled with infections made childbirth the number one killer of women.  In medieval times the lifespan for a woman was twenty seven. The situation was not much better by the 1700ís, when one out of four women were still dying in childbirth.

Today, we go to the hospital come home with a new baby. Back then, the odds were high you might not make it out alive.

Participation in sexual rituals was an act of great piety and holyness. What higher calling is there than to bring forth the human race, at your own peril?
These women were not a pack of dirty sluts as the Church would have you believe. They took their life in their hands, and they knew it. Many of them made the ultimate sacrifice.

Consider that by the time you reached fifteen, your mother was already dead. A large portion of the population could not even remember what their mother looked like. Many of them carried the guilt that their mother died bringing them into the world. Is it any wonder the Mother Goddess was loved above all?

This is why temple women were held in high regard.  If it were not for the sacrifice of our foremothers, you would not be reading this now. The human race would have gone the way of the dinosaur.

To every good Christian I say this: If a natural disaster were to strike and wipe out the entire population so that only the members of your congregation were left alive, your pastor would organize the orgy himself.

Title: Pagan Sex Orgies
Post by: CFTraveler on March 30, 2006, 20:11:25
Maybe they just don't like girls.

Title: Pagan Sex Orgies
Post by: Stookie on March 31, 2006, 16:56:12
Don't you hate it when tele-evangelists give gullible christians false information about ritualistic pagan sex orgies?

Title: Pagan Sex Orgies
Post by: James S on March 31, 2006, 20:21:38
I don't know which I find more frightening -
That tele-evangelists will preach all this utter rubbish or that their audiences will believe them!

The blind leading the blind perhaps?
Or the deceiver leading the deceived?

Title: Pagan Sex Orgies
Post by: Kodemaster on March 31, 2006, 22:40:53
Quote from: James S
I don't know which I find more frightening -
That tele-evangelists will preach all this utter rubbish or that their audiences will believe them!

I put these people right up with the morons who blindly call everything "satanic" (yes, with a lower-case "s") from Halloween, to Astral Projection, to Pokemon.

Case in point:

Yes, I know this page is archived from 2001, but from what I can tell that church hasn't changed much (It's near my hometown).

Title: Pagan Sex Orgies
Post by: Beth on April 01, 2006, 00:32:12
I remember the epiphany that I had about the power of ancient female goddess worship, when I read that, in addition to the power to procreate, ancient goddess worship was also 'logical' because in the winter months, when the 'gatherings were thin', and in times of famine, women of a certain age would remain in a state of 'constant lactation' in order to feed the whole tribe.  Yes, in addition to children---adolescents and adults (both men and women) could all 'feed' off the breasts of these lactating women/priestesses.  That is also why all of the Goddess figurines that we have found were big, fat, fecund females!  They were fed well with temple fees/donations, so they could feed everyone else when the need arose!  

As far as Christianity is concerned, since "Woman"="Power" (to Procreate and Feed when times got tough,) patristic religions must come out against them (overtly or subvertly) in order to protect their "All-powerful Monotheistic Male God."

This is just one of the many issues that will have to be addressed if male dominated religions want to survive for much longer.  The 21st century world will not be able to hold these religions up for that much longer (relatively speaking of course) primarily because women (and rational men) across the globe are no longer kept in ignorance.

This is not to say, however, that we should necessarily return to female gods over male gods; I personally don't think we need to go back to the opposite extreme.  

When we stop trying to make our gods in human likenesses, then we might actually be able to better understand what the divine/astral realms are all about.  There is a power that permeates the universe, no doubt in my mind, but the chances of that power being "male or female" (as we understand the distinctions) is not even worth calculating.  
Well, that's my two cents worth...


Title: Pagan Sex Orgies
Post by: Leyla on April 01, 2006, 03:13:23
How can they not know orgies were necessary for the survival of the human race?

I'm baffled at how ignorant they are of human history and the brutal conditions our ancestors were living under. I tried explaining it to them, but all I got back was an automated e-mail.

Very interesting, Beth. It goes along with a show I saw where they explained that the reason women all menstrate at the same time was so they would have their babies at the same time. So, if one of the mothers died in childbirth one of the other mothers could nurse her baby.

Also, your theory would explain why some goddess statues are covered with many breasts.

Title: Pagan Sex Orgies
Post by: Beth on April 01, 2006, 04:16:08

I know how very frustrating it is to try and get closed minded people to think rationally, and not that I am defending these Christians....not AT ALL, but in order for you to better understand the 'why's' and 'how's' of their attitudes I will offer the following:

They cannot 'see' the need for sexual orgies, for two main reasons, the first of which is that they all believe that they were born into sin, and are sinners, period.  Second, there is one primary thing that they all have in common, and cannot resist as a usual thing, and that is the need to have 'sex'.  They do not consider this to be something that is just a natural part of their humanity, or even as 'a gift from God', it is something 'other'.

Since "Satan" makes them do things they do not want to do, especially those 'other' things they try to resist, 'sex', is oftentimes considered 'evil'.  In fact, the whole sexual act is considered taboo for the most part, UNLESS you are in a marriage sanctioned by the religion--that's where the whole idea that a marriage must be between one man and one woman came from. Then and ONLY THEN, is "sexual intercourse" okay in God's eyes. They can quote scripture to support this belief, e.g., according to St. Paul, "it is better to marry than to burn." Moreover, a lot of feelings of guilt come to those that even consider it outside of marriage, let alone to those that actually follow through on their 'urges'.  

So, as you can imagine, just the word "sex" is a 'trip-word' and lordy, well...the word "ORGIE" would throw many of them into spasms of evil suspicion.  

And yes, some of them are totally 'ignorant' of human history, and have an amazing ability to 'ignore' anything and everything that contridicts their religious beliefs, whether it be historical, scientific or even cultural. Extremists (in any religion) are very narrow-minded people.  

Narrow-minded people won't even try to understand...and you can trust me on this...I have a lot of 'first-hand experience'!!!  They won't budge.  In fact, they will fight you as if their very lives depend upon it...and in a sad sort of way...their lives DO depend upon it.  EVERYTHING that they believe is totally entangled with their religious beliefs, and without those beliefs, EVERYTHING would fall apart.  This is just not something that they can cognitively allow to happen. It would be too devastating to their psyches. So, they will fight you every step of the way.

Now, I must comment on that show that you saw: "the reason women all menstruate at the same time" has absolutely nothing to do with the timing of having babies, but rather, with the tides of the moon.  

Because most all women's bodies respond to the lunar cycle, many women would naturally have their babies around the same time, especially in ancient close-knit tribes that were on the same ritual schedule, e.g., solstices, equinoxes, beltane, etc.  The fact that other women would be available to feed an infant whose mother had died, would be a fortunate side-effect of the much larger reason for women's synchronized menses, but not the cause.

And yes, many breasts would indicate an especially fecund goddess that was also a primary tribal nurturer as well.


Title: Pagan Sex Orgies
Post by: NickJW on April 01, 2006, 09:11:24
hmmmm, Pagan orgies, unfortunitly, did not save the human race. By the time period of the beginning of Paganism, modern humans had already existed for about 100 000 years. We had already inhabited all of Africa, Australia, the various parts of Asia, including many Pacific Islands, Europe, North and South America; just about everywhere except for a small amount of the Pacific and, of course, Antarctica. All the races were already distinct by this time as we evolved slightly to suit the climate. To say that Paganism is what saved our race is just ignorance of scientific fact and way too biased of an opinion. It's all pro-paganism. I'm not saying I agree with Christians, trust me, I don't, but you should remember not to let personal biases cloud your argument, when you don't need them when dealing with pseudoscience in the first place.

Title: Pagan Sex Orgies
Post by: Van-Stolin on April 01, 2006, 11:42:50
Nick, I don't think they are saying it saved the human race.  More like it saved those tribes.  I mean, you have a tribe of about 100 people.  

Half get killed by winter and 50 left, then a plague hits and only 20 are left.  Those 20, then procreate and then we got about 30 now, isn't that just great.

See, it was either have sex or the tribe gets wiped out, it was that simple.

Title: Pagan Sex Orgies
Post by: Beth on April 01, 2006, 15:13:53

Van-Stolin is correct, for my references anyway. I was speaking of small, isolated tribes scattered throughout the globe, where the female was definately deified for her fertility and nourishing capabilities.   See what is called the "Venus of Willendorf" here, dated circa 24,000 bce:
Icons such as this one have been found scattered throughout archaeological ruins dating from at least this early date all the way through the period of the establishment of the Roman Catholic Church, where they certainly did their level best to destroy everything that even looked female in divinity.  Their attempts to do so, however, were met with such a backlash, that the divinity of Mary eventually became part of Catholic Doctrine.

Just curious: How are you defining 'paganism'?? And where do you get your date of 'paganism' beginning after 100,000 years of human population?  Are you speaking of a more organized polytheism perhaps? Also, what is your implication of that population as it regards the worship of the feminine and her role in tribal situations?

In the context that I was speaking...well I explained my context, but the same thing holds true even today.  If there was a serious natural disaster that wiped out the majority of the people and most all of the resources through which the remaining people could nourish themselves, then all fertile and lactating women would come in very handy for their survival.  SO...should you be one of these remaining people, BE VERY NICE to the women!!! :wink: Your very existence may well depend upon them!


Title: Pagan Sex Orgies
Post by: Beth on April 01, 2006, 18:25:21
p.s. For those that don't have a dictionary handy, 'to lactate' means to 'secrete milk' from the Latin 'lac' or 'lactis' meaning 'milk'.  The word 'lactation' is the formal term for 'women who are in the physical/hormonal state of making milk within their breasts'.  


Title: Pagan Sex Orgies
Post by: Leyla on April 02, 2006, 04:22:08
Nick just doesn't understand how religion develops among primitive people.

1) Something becomes a necessity. Like farming or hunting. Or pro-creating teh race.

2) This necessity become ritualized, in farming or hunting rituals.

3) Scholars agree, the first religious rituals humans ever performed were for the growth of the crops, and for the fertility of the animals and people.

4) These rituals become mankinds first religion, because their lives depend on it.

5) Paganism was mankinds first religion.

There was no "before" paganism, unless you're talking about our ape ancestors. It goes back to the caves. As evidenced by the many paintings on cave walls, of statues of fertility goddesses and such.

As for orgies saving the human race, it did. One small, isolated tribe at at time.  It's just common sense.  If your tribe couldn't figure out how to hunt, farm, and procreate, you died. Survival of the fittest.

Beth- Yes I know about womens menstral periods being controlled by phases of the moon, just like the tides are. Matter of fact I have a section of my web-site explaining just that.

I was speaking of the phenomenon, of when you get several women living together in a group, or even working together in the same office, those women will get on the same schedule and start to cycle together.

...spasms of evil suspicion.

Oh, how that phrase made me laugh!

Title: Pagan Sex Orgies
Post by: Mustardseed on April 11, 2006, 02:27:28
Interesting points. I agree with you Beth about the way that Christians in your country seem to feel about sex. It is however worth it to note that this attitude of extreme "sexual phobia" or fear of eroticism also seem to be a very cultural thing. I always find it problematic when a group of people are described like a homogeneous entity. I am as you know Christian and do not share these views as a matter of fact in my country which was the first to lift the ban on porn in the 60s, sex is seen as a gift of god. Christians speak openly about it and freely admit to and promote using toys and all sorts of things to enhance their very active sex life. You seem in my opinion to have a very limited vision of Christianity but I can assure you that we are very different all over the world.

Title: Pagan Sex Orgies
Post by: ChineseRoom on April 24, 2006, 22:07:23
Mustardseed- What country do you live in? A culture where sex isnt considered a bad or evil thing is quite a good culture to me  :razz:
And I agree with not lumping all christians together, they are all a pretty diverse group.

Title: Pagan Sex Orgies
Post by: Beth on April 25, 2006, 01:20:17
Okay ... I believe you! I capitulate!! :grin:  I overstated my sterotype of Christians in general.

I truly hope that there are many different types of Christians throughout the world, and would love to hear more about them!

For the most part, however, the ones that I am most familiar with here in this country, USA, are not very open-minded about things. Even some of the most liberal can have some very conservative ideas. And unfortunately, many of these Christians are in positions of global power and are wreaking havoc around the world by trying to impose very unpopular -- and dangerous -- ideas onto the rest of the world.  All, I should add, in the name of Christianity.


Title: Pagan Sex Orgies
Post by: Mustardseed on May 02, 2006, 02:53:43
Thanks Beth ..........well I am Danish. Also I am a Christian of  a different kind............wanna know how different ...........all you have to do is ask................We all have different lives and stories to tell.

Regards Mustardseed

Title: Pagan Sex Orgies
Post by: Leyla on May 09, 2006, 11:15:43
I can believe there are Christians somewhere who don't think of sex and go into spasms of evil suspician. It's just that I, personally, don't know of any, and have never met one.

But then, I live in America.

Do you know that there actually isn't a verse in the whole bible forbidding pre-marital sex? Only adultery.

I once knew a girl who'd been harassed by a group of anti-pre-marital-sex Christians, she ran to me right afterward, of course, for help, and wanted to see the verse. I told her there was no such verse.

Well, she ran back and pushed that in their face. They weren't happy.

Title: Pagan Sex Orgies
Post by: Mustardseed on May 11, 2006, 22:07:28
Did you know that Adultery was only considered to be adultery for the female. The Jewish scribes and priests would go see their whores for their business and then stand by saying nothing when they got stoned, probably loop a few rocks themselves

Title: Pagan Sex Orgies
Post by: Beth on May 12, 2006, 23:29:53
Did you know that adultery was not really what it has come to mean today at all?;

That the whole of the 10 commandments always loops back to the 1st one?

In other words, all of the other 9 commandments are expounding upon the main one, i.e. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

In the biblical story, God was to the Israelites both father and mother, husband and wife, as well as the source of all of their needs, i.e. thou shalt not murder (your god), thou shalt always honor (your god), thou shalt not steal (from the power of your god or any other god), thou shalt not covet (because God provides you with everything you need.)

All of the commandments are concerning their relationship with God, not with each other.

On a physical level, most of these laws already existed in the days of Hammarabi as civil laws, so the biblical writers used them to allegorically teach about the Laws of God.

Read them all with this allegorical view in mind and think "God" when you read each one of them. See if this doesn't make a lot of sense.

Exodus 20:2-17, Exodus 34:12-26, and Deuteronomy 5:6-21


Title: Pagan Sex Orgies
Post by: Beth on May 12, 2006, 23:36:36
Quote from: Mustardseed
Did you know that Adultery was only considered to be adultery for the female. The Jewish scribes and priests would go see their whores for their business and then stand by saying nothing when they got stoned, probably loop a few rocks themselves

I read this scriptural notation as being a criticism against the priesthood by the writers of the stories. In other words, the priests were the biggest hypocrits of all---they were the ones buying and selling God, killing God, betraying God and not honoring God. They were the ones that were trying to be God by attempting to "steal God's power."

"Whores" were "other religions," and "women" were humanity's "physical bodies" -- the "human senses." The human "mind" was the male part...which was the part that was created in God's image...


Title: Re: Pagan Sex Orgies
Post by: catsquotl on December 18, 2018, 09:12:38
So, I'm watching Christian programming and they start talking sh*t about how the pagan Goddess worshipers were a bunch of perverts.

They explained how a man would go to the temple, find a priestess, worship her, (sexually, or course) then make a donation to the temple.
They explained how this act of homage was thought to bring him great magickal benefit and blessings. And draw down fertility upon the land and people.
True, all true.

The most hilarious thing ever.
Is that the word venerable comes from this exact practise..
I'll spare you the whole story but I cannot now hear someone call another human being his ir her venerable (elder, sistes, brother etc) withoung changing venerable to fuckable in my mind..

With Love

Title: Re: Pagan Sex Orgies
Post by: Nameless on December 18, 2018, 21:12:40
OMG, thank you Eelco for bringing this forward. It has definitely been an interesting conversation to which I have nothing to add. But I love your last line... thanks for the best laugh of the day.