The Astral Pulse

Integral Philosophy => Welcome to Integral Philosophy! => Topic started by: majour ka on May 04, 2006, 22:05:40



Title: Before the universe was created
Post by: majour ka on May 04, 2006, 22:05:40
Hi guys and girls. If the universe was created, what was before it?, if there was nothing before the universe was here, where was the nothing?, if God created it, where was God and what or who created God?


Title: Before the universe was created
Post by: Greenrat on May 05, 2006, 00:37:54
i think there was probably another universe, everything seems to go round in cycles and for the universe itself not to- would seem like a contradiction of itself.  When this universe ends, theres probably gonna be another big bang for another great time span.
  then all the learning the one consciousness accumulates through the universal cycle adds to what it already is and will continue to do so, forever learning, forever growing.

a circle has no beggining or end, but can alter in size :D

as for what came *first* i think was a consciousness of the lowest ebb, like a plant on earth, but it grew and grew and so on... tom chalko describes it well in "the freedom of choice" http://thefreedomofchoice.com/


Title: Before the universe was created
Post by: El-Bortukali on May 05, 2006, 01:51:08
but what about the very first one? it has to have a beggining lol.


Title: Before the universe was created
Post by: Stookie on May 05, 2006, 03:54:53
But there is no beginning, because God created time as part of the universe. Take away the universe, and you take away "beginning" and "end".


Title: Before the universe was created
Post by: El-Bortukali on May 05, 2006, 14:31:48
and who created 'god'?

he just appeeared all of sudden,perfect and omnipotent?

Lucky bastard :\


Title: Before the universe was created
Post by: Stookie on May 05, 2006, 16:57:58
But to "create" is starting something, meaning it can be "un-created", which dosn't fit in with infinity. And he can't just appear, because he was already there! So maybe that's all that really exists is "God", and everything that is "created" isn't real.

It's kind of like looking at both sides of a coin at once - it's not really worth the headache. lol

Oh yeah, I think the chicken probably came first.


Title: Before the universe was created
Post by: zyzyx on May 05, 2006, 19:03:06
I'll tell you where it began when you tell me where the circle begins.

Don't you see that serpent eating it's tail?

Time and Space are only linear in perception.  Some may argue that perception is all we have and therefore should be considered as the whole of reality.  They may be right, but still I want to know what is beyond my perceptions.

-Z


Title: Before the universe was created
Post by: greatoutdoors on May 05, 2006, 19:09:49
Stookie,

Love your post! :lol: And you are right about the chicken.  :wink:

How about this:

Planaria worms are very tiny little creatures that humans can just barely see without a microscope. Scientists commonly use them in the lab. One reason is that if you cut one in half, it will grow into two separate, individual worms.

If you were such a worm in a scientific experiment, would you know it? Would you have any idea that the world you inhabit was only a slide on a scientist's microscope? Would you have any concept of the scientist, much less the world he inhabits?

What if we are in actuality on a petri dish in some laboratory somewhere with no way to know about that "real world"? (Wonder if that scientist has a belief in "God"...

And Stookie, you are right again -- it's enough to give a body a roaring headache!  :smile:


Title: Before the universe was created
Post by: majour ka on May 05, 2006, 23:32:20
Lol out loud people, now you know why ive been asking myself the same questions !!!!!! and great out doors I was going to include somthing similair in my origonal post...great minds think alike.


Title: Before the universe was created
Post by: Stookie on May 06, 2006, 14:08:08
Thanks greatoutdoors :)

major ka - I've wrapped my brain around the topic so many times, like zyzyx said, it's like the snake eating it's own tail. You go in circles forever. As if this world was purposely made so we can't figure it out using just our physical intellect.


Title: Before the universe was created
Post by: majour ka on May 06, 2006, 23:12:14
absolutly stookie ! im constantly reminding my self that we can only scratch the surface of reality, and many things are beyond our concious human understanding....its intersting though.
I often wonder how physicaly big or small we actualy are on the scale of things? lol


Title: Before the universe was created
Post by: Greenrat on May 17, 2006, 00:37:17
Quote from: majour ka
its intersting though.
I often wonder how physicaly big or small we actualy are on the scale of things? lol


were both completely irrelevant and the most important thing there is.


Title: Before the universe was created
Post by: ubiquitous on May 18, 2006, 00:35:43
I can't gather the energy tonight to postulate on such a grand question as the birth and potential after life of this universe.
But i like this quote i read somewhere goes something like:

Cosmology reminds me of love
Theres a big bang, Alot of heat
a cooling off period, then a gradual drifting apart
_____________
Make love not war, or get married and do both!


Title: Before the universe was created
Post by: Tayesin on May 18, 2006, 00:53:02
One theory suggests that there are billions of multi-verses that create new universes whenever two briefly touch. The energy of such a touch sets off a big bang, thereby creating another universe. Ours of course is only one of the many, and is probably quite young in comparison. And I tend to think that each universe has it's own unique awareness that we humans like to call god


Title: Before the universe was created
Post by: Wind Maker on May 22, 2006, 05:50:45
trying to figure out the whole nature of existence and time is like a newborn knowing calculus


Title: Before the universe was created
Post by: Stookie on May 23, 2006, 04:10:50
That's true, but I can't help but believe that pondering these things can enrich a persons perception, thinking, and consciousness. Kind of like if a tree fell in the forest... coming to a definate answer isn't really the purpose.


Title: Before the universe was created
Post by: Beth on May 28, 2006, 21:05:46
I agree Stookie.

It is the 'question' that always drives us, because even when we find an answer, there are always more questions to be asked!

Maybe "asking questions" is actually "the destination" and "finding the answers" merely "the journey."

I wonder what Socrates would say to that??  :think:


Title: Re: Before the universe was created
Post by: Beth on May 28, 2006, 21:28:13
Quote from: majour ka
Hi guys and girls. If the universe was created, what was before it?, if there was nothing before the universe was here, where was the nothing?, if God created it, where was God and what or who created God?


FYI: This topic is in the process of being addressed in the Religion Section under the thread titled: Must God be separate from creation?

Please join in with more comments!

~Beth :grin:


Title: Before the universe was created
Post by: Multihealer on June 27, 2006, 18:33:43
How about this theory?
What´s happening when a atomic bomb explodes? Well, everything in its presence annihilates. Imagine the power of a universal nuclear explosion. Do things really expand, don't everything annihilate? Isn't it strange that this assembly of energy would be able to run away from being annihilated in the big bang theory?

One of the conclusions of this logic says that this is not what really happened when our universe was created. Perhaps there are other ways of activating this fourth dimension that we are present living in?

Everything in this fourth dimension builds om duality. What is then more reasonable to assume then that also the creation of this universe originates from this mechanism. Black vs white, good vs evil, Yin vs Yang.

Have you ever seen anti materia in this universe? Would it not be reasonable to assume that anti materia exists in another dimension balancing our materiel dimension? The perfect balance between opposite but with the difference that when using our four dimensional glasses we can not see outside that perspective. Because we yet don't have the instrument to scientific prove other dimensions existence.

Love and light
Kent


Title: Before the universe was created
Post by: MisterJingo on June 27, 2006, 21:01:48
Quote

Hi guys and girls. If the universe was created, what was before it?, if there was nothing before the universe was here, where was the nothing?, if God created it, where was God and what or who created God?


 The problem with questions such as these is that they might have no meaning outside of human perception. Evolution has produced the brain we perceive the world with. We don’t see the world (universe) as it is, we see it in the only way our brain can perceive it – and this might be very far from the ‘truth’.
 So when we consider such questions, we are considering them through potentially flawed perception (which is why the answers they suggest might seem impossible).


Title: Re: Before the universe was created
Post by: Alaskans on August 10, 2006, 11:27:11
I love this question. Its so impossible :-)

If you want my crazy mad-scientist/spiritualist theory, the life cycle of a universe is: (I'll start with death, it's easier)...
Black holes consume the universe after 1 trillion years. It all merges into a single black hole, the force is so great iron converts to energy and energy itself is compressed so much, that wavelengths and all movement stop. Gravity fails and the energy, now at the most primitive state and unbound by any laws floats across the universe. The gentle bumping motion begins to form waves. From the waves forms chaos, from the chaos forms omnipresent intelligence (God). God creates molecular laws (gravity etc), which form planets, us, etc, to remove itself from 'grey'. Creating a circular universe, and therefore all there is.

I agree the way God's intelligence emerges is pretty sketchy (although Its not like I have intimite knowledge of all the 'dimensions' God inhabits). And actually all that would be needed for the birth of the universe is iron to convert into energy (scrapping the whole no wavelenght idea). But scientists now say the universe never exploded, but appeared in a condensed form and is GROWING (or stretching) NOT expanding, NOT like an explosion, thats why I thought of the failing of physical laws.

Warning: Take your Excedrin now   :|
However, the idea that God (energy) is the one and only infinite just doesn't sound right to me, reality feels too small, like there should be more. It's probably right under our nose but we just can't grasp it. In my tree reasoning all things (no matter what they are) are connected, like branches of a tree they end up at the trunk (infinity, or God). I haven't found a SINGLE thing that doesn't follow this. But what if this universe is just another branch of a much larger tree, in all logic it can't go from branches to God/infinity... the trunk (God) must reconnect to the tips of the branch in order to be infinite. Actually I thought I asked myself that before, maybe the answer is somewhere in my notes  :-P.

Since you guys love my paintshop drawings, here's a crappy paintshop drawing depicting what I think is the entire universe, all desires, everything.

(http://C:\Documents and Settings\gerrijohn\My Documents\Luke) (myspace is down atm)

The star is God, circle is infinity, the tree is the universe, and the branches the branching out of God into the 7 planes, these 7 branch out an innumberable amount of times eventually creating all you see. God is also where the roots would be, giving the branches life. There are many more meanings. And I'm pretty sure God does reconnect to the tips of the branches (wherever they end), but if not, you could see why I wonder if the whole tree of the universe isn't just a branch.


Title: Re: Before the universe was created
Post by: RealmExplorer on August 11, 2006, 16:25:39
But to "create" is starting something, meaning it can be "un-created", which dosn't fit in with infinity. And he can't just appear, because he was already there! So maybe that's all that really exists is "God", and everything that is "created" isn't real.

It's kind of like looking at both sides of a coin at once - it's not really worth the headache. lol

Oh yeah, I think the chicken probably came first.

I happen to think it's more likely that the egg came first...For the chicken to exist, there first had to be an egg. See, Chicken A, the Chicken we do not know laid the egg for Chicken B, which is the Chicken we do know. Chicken B could not have always existed by itself. The genetic makeup of Chicken A and Chicken B are different, but Chicken B exists solely as a result of the genetic recombination and mutation that occurred in the body of Chicken A, and the egg it laid, and is an entirely different entity.

The question then becomes where did Chicken A come from? My opinion is that every cause has an effect and every effect has a cause. So perhaps Chicken A can only lay one egg, and Chicken B can only lay one egg, and Chicken B's egg gives birth to Chicken A. Perhaps there's an existence far beyond these 11 dimensions, and perhaps it is the complete Inverse of this reality. 

Perhaps there is a Multiverse and an Anti-Multiverse, and the interaction between the two gives rise to the respective equivalent of Rest and Motion in each, i.e. Time, Anti-Time, Matter, Anti-Matter, etc. If in quantum mechanics every possibility can and does exist, then the inverse of THAT also has to exist, or, every non-possibility cannot and does not exist. Maybe this latter statement is its entirely own existence.