The Astral Pulse

Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences => Welcome to Astral Consciousness! => Topic started by: Gandalf on October 11, 2007, 00:13:06



Title: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Gandalf on October 11, 2007, 00:13:06
I came across this site:  http://www.eliasforum.org/introduction.html  (http://www.eliasforum.org/introduction.html)

Elias describes himself as a nonphysically focused “energy personality essence,” or what has been commonly termed a “spirit” or an “entity.” However, he defines the word “essence” as an action rather than an entity. He says that he has experienced many physical lifetimes or “focuses,” but is not physically manifest in this present time framework. Presently, he chooses to focus his awareness in nonphysical areas of consciousness in which he holds the intent of teaching, or more specifically, of offering information within the least amount of distortion.

'Elias' is a channeled source and builds upon the information provided in the past by 'Seth'. The Elias material is more recent than Jane Robert's Seth material but is very interesting. The whole 'Focus' concept is there and you will find that a lot of the information is similar to Robert Monroe's and Frank Kepple's findings, which is interesting since the Elias material was not widely available when Frank was around.

Elias has also divided consciousness into various 'regions' and many other concepts can also be recognised. Elias goes much further than Frank ever did, but this is to be expected as Frank chose only to write about what he had actually experienced himself and he was reluctant to go beyond that.

One point to be made here. The Elias material, like the earlier Seth material, explores the wider reality (ie the astral) from a psychological viewpoint (seeing how Jane Roberts originally trained as a psychologist). The Elias material continues this approach. Monroe and Frank of course, follow more of an engineering approach. Others again prefer a more traditional mystical approach. It really boils down to what approach resonates with you. However, if you keep this in mind then you will find much to interest you in this material, even if the psychological approach is not to your particular liking.

I have found that the Seth material has much in common with what Monroe has discovered, as Frank pointed out himself. The Elias material appears to build on that.

One interesting point that Elias makes is that he is not a 100% reliable source! Because of the distortion involved via him transmitting this information from where he is, to our region of consciousness, there is an inevitable degree of distortion, which is also coloured by the channeled receiver's mind as well as others present. For this reason, he warns people not to treat his every utterance as fact as he doesn't want to be 'responsible for starting another cult'.

Elias has tried his best to provide an extremely detailed guide but he says that ultimately it comes down to personal experience and exploration, pretty much what Monroe and Frank have said in the past. It is actually quite refreshing to hear this honesty from a channeled source!

Check it out and let me know what you think!


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Stookie on October 11, 2007, 17:05:11
I've read a lot of stuff there before, and your right, it is some great information. I would suggest it to others if they're looking for a good source of new-er info.


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Novice on October 11, 2007, 18:05:40
I had never heard of him/them before.

Stookie is right...good suff! Thanks for sharing!!


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Gandalf on October 11, 2007, 22:35:56
The Focus 1 to 4 model is pretty much there, although Elias doesnt spend much time on a description of the region itself, nor many of the other regions in fact. He seems more concerned with the big picture as it were.

Saying that, his description of the expanded consciousness and opportunities available in Focus 4, or what he refers to as 'Region 4'  is quite close to Frank's.


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Mez on October 16, 2007, 02:07:06
thanks for the link. I've just spent half the morning reading some of it. Its really good and enlightening. Something that stood out to me was how prophecies become actual realities... a person merely taps into focus 3 and recieves information not relavent to this dimension but they make it fit into this dimension and they make their prophecy which is then given attention making it an actual probability... people then believe it which lends great amounts of energy to it and thus it actually manifests! Thats an amazing bit of info.


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Gandalf on October 16, 2007, 13:20:54
Yeah, most of it is great stuff and seems to agree with much of the findings of monroe and frank.

The only bit I don't really agree with at the moment (but maybe only because i dont quite understand what elias is on about), is the bit about how animals dont incorporate emotions in the same way as we do.

Elias definately views them as sentient beings with their own plans and choices and they do experience what we call love/affection and can express it also.

However he says they dont incorporate emotions as we do and their *expressions* of emotions, ie excited, angry, fearful etc are actually forms of visual communication, to let others around them know what they like or do not like, or what they prefer or do not prefer. We interprete them as emotional responses but they are actually symbolic forms of communication that we interprete as emotions.

I don't buy that one.. Anyone who has observed their pets will know full well that they express a full range of emotion and they express it to each other, not just us. I have seen my dog jumping around the house, out of control and slavering just to get his teeth around an apple!  I dont believe for a moment he is just sending me a visual signal that he would 'prefer an apple'.... the reality is that he is so excited that he cannot even control himself and runs around in circles... (he's a bit manic my dog!).

It is hard to see their behaviour as anything other than the same kind of emotional expression as we would recognise in ourselves.


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Mez on October 17, 2007, 04:32:45
thats an interesting point but i think i understand where elias is coming from. Look at how humans use emotions... emotions have a huge impact on human behaviour and influence our desicions in a big way. I dont think its the same for animals...take for example a person who holds a grudge... theres a lot of emotion there now do you think animals hold grudges with emotions like we do? I dont think so... im sure animals experience emotions but like elias said they're more a form of outward visual communication... that is they dont internalize there emotions and store them like humans do.


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Gandalf on October 17, 2007, 11:21:22
Good point!


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Stookie on October 17, 2007, 17:20:44
Rudolph Steiner says that emotions come out of the astral body. Before this phase of our evolution we had only a lower, animalistic astral body that governs base emotions, mostly tied to basic socialization, food, & sex - in other words, physical survival. Animals today only have this part of the astral body (yet some are planting seeds for their next part of evolution). We still have this, but have also evolved a higher, humanistic part of the astral body where more complicated "human" emotions manifest as language, art, science, religion, etc.

Well, that accompanied with an ego.

Of course I can't confirm any of this myself, I've just studied a lot of Steiner.


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Novice on October 17, 2007, 19:15:09
Actually it's interesting even at a more fundamental level than that. If you think about it, animals seem to be focused on the present moment all the time. They don't get bogged down with thoughts of things from the past or future -- including all the worry, fear, excitement, etc that goes along with them. If they are threatened by a predator, they run as fast as possible till they're free. Then given a few minutes to calm down, they're fine. Heart rate is back to normal and they're grazing on grass or what have you. If that were to happen to a human, we remained tense/pumped for hours after we're free. And anytime we think about the incident, which we all know we'll do repeatedly, our body responds accordingly. Animals don't replay these events in their minds. What's done is done. They don't carry it with them. I think that's something we can learn from.

Also, unrelated to emotions/animals, I found the content from Elias regarding Jesus and the crucifixion/second coming interesting. Not sure I agree/believe what he describes as the Rose children, but I do believe what he says about the crucifixion not occurring. A few years ago I visited the Akashic Records and asked to see the crucifixion. The helper didn't understand what I meant. I elaborated about Jesus and then he shook his head slightly, with a strange smile, and said they didn't have it. I wasn't convinced the event took place, so was attempting to verify for myself. I hadn't posted this before, because I wasn't sure of the reason for them not having it, but I suspected it was because it never happened. So what Elias said about that event seems to be true based on what I've been able to determine....very interesting.


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Gandalf on October 17, 2007, 23:56:14
That's interesting, although for me, not very suprising. I never really took any of the biblical stories literally in any case. I see them as mythology and as with other mythology, they are infused with symbolic meaning.

I doubt there ever was one single figure called 'Jesus Christ'. I believe the figure is a composite of several figures as well as being a personification of the core values and ideology of the Christian system, I never took him as a literal figure. So much of the bible story is related to earlier pagan mythology, especially the fixation with 'dying and rising' god types, a common god motif of the ancient near east.

Anyway, without getting into a discussion on the development of Christianity, which belongs in another forum, I think its interesting how much of the Elias material gels with what else I have read, but also how some of it differs. I think that with all channeled information there is some element of doubt due to data contamination, namely the beliefs and ideas held by the channeling individual, as well as others directly involved. Elias is the first to admit this.


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Old Dood on October 21, 2007, 14:42:51
thats an interesting point but i think i understand where elias is coming from. Look at how humans use emotions... emotions have a huge impact on human behaviour and influence our desicions in a big way. I dont think its the same for animals...take for example a person who holds a grudge... theres a lot of emotion there now do you think animals hold grudges with emotions like we do? I dont think so... im sure animals experience emotions but like elias said they're more a form of outward visual communication... that is they dont internalize there emotions and store them like humans do.
I do not think animals have grudges either.  However, they do have memory.  If someone mistreats them they will NEVER forget. If someone is always kind to them they will 'worship' them.(lack of a better term)

We have a Welsh Cardigan Corgi Dog and it is fun to 'see' how he ticks so to speak.  I noticed he remembers people (and places) by name. He is quite bright and has a good sized vocabulary.  My best friend is his best friend. (it could just be he is male like me and responds to males more then the 2 women in our home)  My friend name is Mark. So if I say "mark that on the calendar" then he hears the word Mark...he is up and ready.  Many times I will pet him at the end of a day and go through the day with him. I will bring up the people he saw that day and he perks his ears up but he doesn't get excited. I always wonder if he is remembering the day as I walk him through it.  He looks at me as 'if' he does.  The very next day if I try this he will get all excited as if someone that I mentioned is coming over to the house.  Sorry, hope I didn't get to far off topic. That part 'perked my ears up'. :D  I do believe pets for example do have what I call 'Raw Emotions'.  Or...Pure Emotions.
They are straight forward emotions.  More Black and White then we tend to do with ours.  This is why you do not punish a dog for doing something that didn't happen in the NOW.  Like pooping on the carpet while you were gone.  Then again...when ours has done it (when he isn't feeling well) and I come home he will not run up to me all excited like every other day.  He will sit in 'shame' knowing he did something 'bad'.  Or he will come up to me and quietly lick me.(while I am cleaning it all up)  I have learned to simply talk to him and ask him if he is not feeling well and then take him outside.  He 'seems' to understand this tenderness I am showing him.

I went to the website that Gandalf posted.  I haven't had time to read most of it yet. However, could someone explain to me the comparison between Elias and Monroe's experience? I do not even know who Frank is.  Are you speaking of the 'rings' or focus levels?  I have read Monroe's books recently and I am still digesting them.  I guess I am asking for a more simple explanation of it all if that is possible.

Thanks...


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Novice on October 22, 2007, 15:05:25
Frank has a very good post on phasing that you can find in the Astral FAQ section, below is a link:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_the_astral_faq/what_is_phasing_and_how_can_i_do_it-t17413.0.html (http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_the_astral_faq/what_is_phasing_and_how_can_i_do_it-t17413.0.html)

Phasing is what Robert Monroe later called his process. It is a seperate method to explore expanded consciousness than an OBE, which is how he first began. Monroe categorizes consciousness into a bunch of focus levels (1-35 I think). Frank read Monroe and based on his own experiences, narrowed the categories into 4 areas instead of 35+.

The Elias material also describes areas of consciousness very similar to what Frank had -- using 4 areas at present. If memory serves, Elias calls them Regions. But if you look up that in the digest section, you'll see 4 regions. His descriptions are consistent with Frank and, once compacted, with Monroe's theory.

Hope that helps!


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Old Dood on October 22, 2007, 17:54:24
Yes...thanks.  It does help some.

I have also read Cayce's stuff too and he has it in 'Regions' for Afterlife anyways.

I just need to read and read some more. :)

EDIT:  Just wanted to add that now I know who Frank is. :)
That was driving me nuts...hehe


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: SilverSlider on October 24, 2007, 23:55:01
I really like his deliver style as well as the content...he comes across as being very sincere & helpful in the transcriptions.

One thing I've always been confused by when people judge channelings, is whether they are legit or not. I'm not sure if it really matters - if you are a discernible reader and the material is bunk, then leave it...even if it's some person completely making things up and claiming the words came from the king of Kartesus 9 circling Polaris, but the material is very very good, who cares?

The only difference I can see is that it's a little more glamorous and exotic if it's a true channeling handing down information from separate entities in other dimensions, times or galaxies.

And I beleive that his all gets at what Gandalf is referring to here: If you actually think and cross check with other sources (including yourself!), you will find out what is true and what isn't, as there probably are fluctuations in all channelings, no matter how pure they claim the contact to be.

I think that with all channeled information there is some element of doubt due to data contamination, namely the beliefs and ideas held by the channeling individual, as well as others directly involved. Elias is the first to admit this.

Though I have to disagree with your last sentence, Gandalf....as much as I hate to bring this up because this group has kind of a bad rap, Mayatnik and his Zeta channeling group as far as I remember *always* told people not to take everything they say as fact, and to check other sources. Actually, the Zeta's themselves repeatedly told readers in various channelings to check for themselves to see if something that they say is true - going as far as giving a technique to check (pendulum), though one could use any divination tool, really.

Good stuff though, I'll have to check it out more when I get back from work.

Edit: Read through some of the stuff - Whoa, so much to read! LOL but one thing that stuck out was like I mentioned before, Elias' delivery; He says "so to speak" often, which I find myself saying (or similar phrases) when explaining things like consciousness and astral projection to friends - in a way sort of validates, for me,  his understanding of these things. I say this because when I use these phrases I have to use illustrations of "basic" understanding to get more abstract ideas across.

Edit2:
"I am not attaching this to Regional Area 2, for within Regional Area 2, just as within your dreams, there are many levels or areas; your language is very limited; in which connections take different paths."

Amen!


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Gandalf on October 30, 2007, 14:36:36
I agree, but a lot of people don't realise that channelings come through a fog of distortion  and people often take them as undisputed fact.

It's more difficult because the channeling individual may have no idea what part is genuine and what part comes from their own mind or mind of others in the room. We all have our own beliefs.

The problem is obvious when Elias describes how the 'Elias' that we hear at our end is actually an amalgamation of the 'real' Elias and the channeling subject - for the duration of the communication, 'elias' is in effect a new being, made up of the two personalities.

No wonder ideas, concepts and theories get mixed up! Channeling will always suffer from these limitations, which is why i guess the best approach is Monroe's or Frank's: i.e. go there yourself and experience it directly... easier said than done though for most of us!


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Ben K on November 06, 2007, 01:43:10
Ah Elias!

I got heavily into seth and elias about time i started visiting astral pulse, when frank was still around. Id be glad to answer any questions as i've come to learn quite alot from him, and treasure his teachings. All of it is perfectly valid in my experience and it also matches quite well with what frank did and alot of the stuff monroe came across. He also says some interesting stuff about monroe and his levels that relates to franks model as well, here it is.


JENNY: We came from the Monroe Institute and we were - how do you say this? - exploring other levels of consciousness or whatever they call that, feeling other energy, feeling myself in different vibrations. I don't know what to call it.

ELIAS: Allowing yourself to explore other areas of yourself. These are not levels.

JENNY: Why do they call them levels?

ELIAS: These are expressions of your beliefs.

I may express to you, within the expressions of religious beliefs - of which your creation of metaphysics in this time framework is merely a new religion, a new persona of religious beliefs - in this, within the aspects of religious beliefs, it is expressed that there are levels of movement, higher and higher levels of achievement, of attainment, of movement. There are hierarchies.

JENNY: And higher energies and lower energies. What is that about?

ELIAS: There are no higher energies and lower energies. You ARE consciousness.

JENNY: I was thinking when I was at the Monroe Institute that none of that made sense, but somehow everything ... it's like I said, I'm rebellious about everything. It's just this part of me that is like, this doesn't...

ELIAS: Allow yourself the recognition that these are merely the expressions of beliefs. This is not to say that the concepts are not valid or that the movements are not valid, for they are. Information is communicated, and this is not necessarily invalid. All of your reality is intertwined with beliefs. The movement of this shift is merely to RECOGNIZE these beliefs, not to eliminate them, not to perpetuate them by expressing that they are good and bad, or that they are right or wrong.

JENNY: We still function under a belief system, and that's okay.

ELIAS: Correct.

JENNY: Because I used to think, "Oh, this belief system is programming me; I just wish I could take it away."

ELIAS: No. The point is to be recognizing and accepting that these are expressions of your reality in this physical dimension and (deliberately) not to allow the automatic response to them to dictate your choices.


Anyway im just stopping by at Astral Pulse and saw a thread on elias, had to chirp in. his stuff is great.  :-D

PS- gandalf alot of the information that comes out of a channel is related to their own beliefs, as well as the type of energy exchange that is happening. I think that in a light trance, where the channeler is still somewhat conscious, there is a much greater distortion level than say, how elias does it with mary ennis, which is a deep trance. it allows him to bypass alot and is a much more efficient method of getting information across...albeit a little tougher on the physical body of the channeler. another "essence personality" that does this deep-trance style channeling is Kris and i believe Ramtha as well. Theres tons of em out there and they are all valid in their own way ;)


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Ben K on November 06, 2007, 01:58:26
PSS- about the animal thing. its very complicated because you have to be familiar with the terminology that elias uses and you have to know what hes talking about when he says emotion.hes not talking about it strictly in terms of feelings, as in you feel happy or sad. his terminology of "emotion" is very different than what we have collectively come to believe about emotion. Animals possess FEELINGS, but they do not possess emotions. They can be happy and sad, but that is not an emotion in the elias terminology. Emotion is much deeper. If anyone cares to read here is a great digest with some stuff on emotion:

http://www.eliasforum.org/digests/sexuality_emotion.html


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Selski on November 06, 2007, 11:08:44
Hi Ben K

Thanks for posting the Jenny/Elias conversation - that was really interesting.

I love the fact that it's ok to function under a belief system - kind of a relief for me.  I've been so reluctant to believe in anything, thinking that I might be being "had" in some way.

I was coming to the same conclusions myself anyway, but it's nice to hear it from someone else as well.

Cheers!  :-D

Sarah


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Ben K on November 06, 2007, 20:32:02
hey selski

yes, that was quite a relief for me to find out as well. i had been practicing LDing and OBE work for awhile when i came across elias and i was unknowingly allowing all these various beliefs to affect me, and as elias says, BELIEFS CREATE REALITY. Then i found out how beliefs work, that they are more like TOOLs for CREATING reality than they are GUIDELINES on how reality ALREADY IS. When you look at it from that perspective suddenly you stop becoming victim and you can allow yourself to create your reality (physical AND non-physical) EXACTLY how you want it to be. You put yourself in the pilots seat!

Ben


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Gandalf on November 12, 2007, 14:02:17
Have any of you found any part of the elias material that goes into detail on the various regions of consciousness in the same way as Monroe/Frank et al?

I did read the sections of Elias's 'region 1 to 4 model', which pretty much tallies with Frank's system and in turn Monroe's, but I noticed Elias doesnt really spend much time describing the environments of these areas in the same detail as Frank or Monroe; I think mainly because Elias is trying to get across the big picture as it were.

However it would be nice if he provided some detail of specific regions and their workings, just so as to provide a comparison.


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Gandalf on November 14, 2007, 10:02:44
Hi Ben,

Interesting piece there about Elias and his comments about Monroe, although i disagree with Jenny talking about how she didn't like the Monroe Institute's talk of levels and heirarchies. Actually Monroe, like Elias, also does not accept the concept of heirarchies. The levels are simply labels used to define certain areas of consciousness. Monroe was quite clear about this, as is the institute imo.

Anyway, I re-read some of Elias' info on the 4 regions and they do conform quite well to Frank's description, and in turn Monroe's, although as I said, he doesn't really go into specific detail on the environments, as does Frank or Monroe, as Elias seems to be more concerned with the broader scope.

One thing that seems clear to me is that Focus 3 or 'Region 3' is *way broader* than many people may have realised until now.

Frank was more concerned with the 'transition aspect' of F3, which is important although he mentioned that there were other elements that make up the region too, although he didn't know too much about them. Elias very much expands on this.

Also, Frank's description of people in F3 describes them very much like ourselves and the environments very earth like, in fact *more earth like than earth* as he says... a kind of hyper reality.

However Elias goes on to talk about people in F3 transition engaging and becoming aware of their other selves (focuses), but clearly this must be happening at a point beyond Frank's upper F3 (F27) level, as these people he found in F3 were still very much like ourselves on earth, ie with one main focus.

What comes across to me is that Frank's and Monroe's description of F3/f27 is in reality only the early stages of F3/transition.... eventually there comes a point where you must come into full realisation of all your other focuses and this in turn prepares you for the eventual primary focus switch to F4.

Actually, I think Frank may have hit on this already, as interestingly, in his discussions about F3 and F4, he said that he had come across people who were 'kind of half in F4 and half out of it so to speak'; To me this state sounds like an even 'higher' state of F3 and possibly the state of multi-dimensional awareness that elias talks about via F3 transition (although i don't like the term 'higher' - but you know what I mean).

This means that the whole F3/F23-F27 environments that Monroe and Frank talk about, are only the tip of the iceberg of F3 and indeed the whole 'transition process'.

I also like Elias's description of how there were also those resident in R3 who, instead of being engaged in transition, have decided to become specialised in communicating and engaging with those in F1/R1. I guess this covers all the mediums and their non-physical colleagues, and perhaps related to this area, all those who engage in 'retrieval work', as this involves those who have entered into difficulty on their immediate transfer from F1 to F3.



Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Novice on November 14, 2007, 11:09:29
Gandalf-
Yeah, I had read that as well. I was a bit disappointed that he wouldn't give anything other than a cursory mention of F4 -- although his rationale made sense -- we wouldn't be able to comprehend it as we are now.

But, yes, most everything else he mentions synchs with my own experiences/views at present. Very interesting stuff...   8-)


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Ben K on December 12, 2007, 19:40:13
some cool info on F4-

http://www.eliasforum.org/digests/RA4.html


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Old Dood on December 12, 2007, 23:31:10
some cool info on F4-

http://www.eliasforum.org/digests/RA4.html
Come on....Can someone give the 'Cliff Notes' on all of that? :D
My head hurts...


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Ben K on December 13, 2007, 03:57:29
Quote
Come on....Can someone give the 'Cliff Notes' on all of that? Cheesy
My head hurts...
:lol:

dont say he didnt warn ya!

Quote
I was a bit disappointed that he wouldn't give anything other than a cursory mention of F4 -- although his rationale made sense -- we wouldn't be able to comprehend it as we are now.

 :lol: :lol:


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Novice on December 13, 2007, 13:06:25
That was excellent Ben K. I had searched around for info on that and somehow missed that page (feeling rather dumb now).   :roll:

It's amazing. That explaination/description entirely consistent with my own beliefs/experiences at present.  Very cool stuff!  8-)


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Gandalf on December 14, 2007, 14:06:10
That is amazing stuff and thanks Ben your your exhaustive PM on the matter of F3 also.

Concerning F3, we seem to be coming to the conclusion that all of Monroe's F23-F27 or Frank's F3, may only be the very early stages of the whole R3/Transition area stage. Hardly scratching the surface even, although Monroe's/Frank's work does has the added advantage of coming from people who have actually experienced these areas for themselves, rather than just listening to a lecture on the matter from a communicated source.

However, the communicated sources such as Seth and Elias are providing much needed expansion on what we have already discovered and help to put them into some context.

Elias's description  of F4/R4 is excellent!

By the way, I think it was Seth who first came up with the 4 framework model, although he only went into detail about F1 and F2. It was always assumed that Seth was coming from F4 and his piece on the 'mechanics of transition' in 'Seth Speaks' is assumed to take place in F3.

However Elias provides clarification on this matter and expands further.

I'm looking forward for more info from this source in the future... these communications are still ongoing i believe.


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: recoverer on January 25, 2008, 00:49:12
Regarding Jesus Christ not getting crucified, consider how channeled sources have contradicted themselves on this matter.

Elias said: "I understand that he (Jesus) did not die in the crucifixion, but did he go to India after that? In reply, Elias claims that Jesus moved to Macedonia and died there at age 51, apparently of natural causes."

Jane Robert's Seth on the otherhand provides a completely different version. He claimed that a hoax took place and a mentally disturbed man was drugged and crucified in his place. Shortly after the supposed hoax, Jesus used his psychic powers to end his existence as a physical being.  Clearly this contradicts Elias' claim that Jesus lived until he was 51. It is also funny that Paul had to speak to Jesus's disciples in order to learn about Jesus' teachings, if Jesus could be found in Macedonia.

In her book about Jesus, Sylvia Browne claims that Jesus made a deal with Pilate, and the men who were assigned to crucify him were experts in anatomy, and resultantly were able to place stakes through his feet and hands so an artery wouldn't be damaged. This despite the fact that other people weren't crucified with stakes, and Grey's anatomy (the book, not the TV show) hadn't come out yet. They also supposedly placed a foot stool under his feet. Somehow, nobody noticed this. Later on, when nobody was around people close to Jesus (I can't remember who Sylvia named, Mary etc.) came to rescue Jesus from his tomb. If you read Sylvia's account, she basically makes Jesus sound like a wimp who wasn't brave enough to fulfill his divine destiny.

The lady who supposedly channels her deceased son Matthew, claims that Jesus was whipped rather than crucified, and lived for a number of years afterwards.

Why the contradictory stories?

And consider Seth's version.  He uses the Gospels to make his case.  Specific verses are referenced in Jane Robert's books. Seth claims that Peter denied Jesus three times, because somebody other than Jesus was taken prisoner. The problem is that there are verses where Jesus tells Peter that he would deny him three times. Why would Jesus tell him so if somebody other than Jesus is taken prisoner?

Seth also claims that Judas made the arrangements for a hoax crucifixion to take place. If this is the case, why did Jesus tell Judas that he would betray him? There are numerous verses within the gospels which show that Jesus was well aware that he would be crucified.

If somebody suggests that there might be errors in the Gospels, then why did Seth twist them in order to make his arguments?

When it comes to the man who was supposedly crucified in Jesus' place, wasn't there anybody around who knew what Jesus looked like, and would know that somebody other than Jesus was being crucified?

Wouldn't Jesus' disciples realize that Jesus was still with him when a drugged man was supposedly crucified in his place?

The way Seth spoke of the crucifixion and other things related to Jesus gives me the impression that he was looking to tarnish his reputation. For example, in the two Seth books I have, "Seth speaks" and "a nature of a personal reality," Seth referred to three of Jesus's most famous verses and completely despiritualized them.

For example when Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself, Seth said that Jesus was just making a joke, because nobody loved their neighbor at the time. Consider the below verses from Matthew:

"5:43Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy: 5:44but I say unto you, love your enemies, and pray for them that persecute you; 5:45that ye may be sons of your Father who is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust. 5:46For if ye love them that love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 5:47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the Gentiles the same? 5:48Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

19:16And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 19:17And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. 19:18He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19:19Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 19:20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? 19:21Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. 19:22But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions.

22:34But the Pharisees, when they heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, gathered themselves together. 22:35And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, trying him: 22:36Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law? 22:37And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 22:38This is the great and first commandment. 22:39And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 22:40On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets."

Does it sound like Jesus was just making a joke when he said to love your neighbor as yourself? How about the other things he said? Thou shalt not commit murder, adultery, and should love God with all thy heart, mind and soul? Was he just making jokes? Or was he serious about those commandments, and just for the fun of it, inserted a joke about loving one's neighbor as one's self, even though he was asked what the most important commandments are?

I'm not writing what I write because I'm a fundamentalist. I went through a period where I had all kinds of doubts about Christ. Then one day I realized that I didn't really know, so I prayed and asked to find out. I have had a number of spiritual experiences (including an experience in a higher realm) and received spirit messages which told me that Jesus Christ did in fact live, is a key part of divine reality, and was crucified.

One series of symbolic visual messages was as follows: First I was shown a crucifix. I asked why. I was shown an image which is a bit complicated to explain, but basically said that "They killed him (Jesus), they put him on display, they spotted his reputation." Next I experienced myself press the high C note on my piano (not physically) which I understood to symbolically mean that he represents the highest consciousness there is. I've also received some other messages which showed that Jesus was crucified.

So what kind of shenanigans are sources such as Elias and Seth up to?



Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: Stookie on January 25, 2008, 16:41:57
recoverer - Interesting subject

What do you think about the Elias model of consciousness? Do you find any truth behind the different focuses of consciousness Elias talks about? And if so, how do you think those focuses relate with Christ and the crucifixion?


Title: Re: The Elias Material - phasing related
Post by: recoverer on January 25, 2008, 17:36:36
Hello Stookie:

I've read very little of Elias. I did read Seth for a while. Gave it a good shot. After I started having experiences and receiving messages that related to Christ, I decided to see what Seth had to say about Christ. It became clear that in an underhanded way Seth puts Christ down. When I found that people stated that Elias is similar to Seth and that he denies the crucifixion, I decided to not check him out.

This doesn't mean that none of the things Seth and Elias say are true.  I figure even misleading sources have to say a significant number of things that are true, or people won't consider them at all. Hopefully they don't say too many things that set people off course.

As far as models go, I'm a fan of Robert Monroe's Ultimate Journey and Bruce Moen's books. I can't say if they are 100% true because I haven't experienced everything they've experienced. I have had experiences and received messages that told me that the higher self/disk/I-there/oversoul viewpoint is true in some way. I haven't figured out all of the details.

P.S. I have doubts about Seth for reasons other than what he says about Christ.





recoverer - Interesting subject

What do you think about the Elias model of consciousness? Do you find any truth behind the different focuses of consciousness Elias talks about? And if so, how do you think those focuses relate with Christ and the crucifixion?