The Astral Pulse

I haven't had an OBE yet although I'm pretty close. I was wondering, for those of you who are experienced in having these, how real do they seem? When you leave your body and look around your room, fly to other dimensions etc, is it just as real as waking reality? Is it just as real and vivid as "real life", or is it more dream like?

Thanks!

 It's a real as this physical Reality is. Sometimes it seems like it's even be more real than this physical Reality is!  

 I know that likely doesn't make sense to you. Before I learned to AP, it wouldn't to me either.  :wink:

 Sometimes the colors are much brighter and it seems like you are actually seeing some through a different pair of eyes. At that point you aren't seeing things like we do here. There is an extra "dimensional" feel to everything. Especially when you experience the "Grids" and Mandalas/Portals that sometimes appear there.

Every bit as "real" as this physical reality.

Wow...just wow lol. That is incredible. You're right, I do find that hard to believe, but it definitely excites me even more to hear that. I can't imagine what a thrilling experience its going to be when I can finally get out of the body and start exploring. Thanks guys!

I wanted to add that besides the reality being even more real than what we are experiencing right now, I personally have very heightened emotions and great sense of adventures during APs. I have experienced all kinds of things that here you can only see in sci fi movies. Absolutely incredible.

Wow. Amazing. I just found out about Astral Projection a few months ago, and I can hardly believe it. I grew up Christian so this was all stuff I never even heard about or if I did I was told it was evil and of the devil. I have recently had what you might call a "spiritual awakening" and have come out of my religion and no longer consider myself a Christian (although I will always follow the way of Christ, but Christianity is quite opposite of that unfortunately), so this whole world is brand new to me and its very exciting. I can't believe that AP isn't talked about or practiced more. It's actually too good to be true. You'd think everyone would want to be trying this stuff. Needless to say, I can't wait until my first full blown OBE experience!!

Have fun :)
 Yes, very spot on about christ and christianity:
Christ: 'I am the way' = Be the way I am

I think you will Love these series (safe download): http://kickass.to/neale-donald-walsch-conversations-with-god-series-t6413031.html

Oh actually I just ordered that book the other day! I am waiting for it to come in. I've heard alot of good things about it. Lately I've been reading books such as "Christ is not a Person", many books by Alan Watts such as "Behold the Spirit", and a couple of books by liberal scholar Marcus Borg like "Meeting Jesus again for the first time". Jesus is so much more powerful and transcendent than Christianity gives him credit for. Saying that he is simply a god to be worshiped is an extremely boring and lazy way of interpreting his life and teachings.

I totally agree!  I've gone from church to church, and almost none of them come anywhere close to capturing the spirit of Christ that I experience deeply.

It's truly unbelievable. There's really nothing dream-like about it really. Dreams are more like a vapor, a fuzzy memory. AP is a solid world, one you can walk around in and stamp your feet on the solid ground. There are 3 dimensions, sharp visuals, gravity. But the rules you know can also be broken. It has to be experienced to be believed, and even then it's hard to believe. You can say that it is as real as waking life which is true, but there are really no words to describe what it's like, other than to actually be there walking around in this other world, just taking it in. Especially when you are making conscious decisions there while reminding yourself that you are not in the physical world, telling yourself what to remember. Stopping spontaneously to touch things and pick up solid objects. Thinking: I wonder what that feels like? Feeling their weight, texture, temperature wetness, etc. Testing everything. And finding that everything is there, just like you know it. Leaves you shaking your head, just thinking to yourself, WOW WHAT THE HECK WAS THAT! How can I explain to anyone what I just did? But the experiences leave such a lasting impression, you think about them all the time, they are always somewhere in the back of my mind. It really changes your perspective on reality, I can't look at things the same way any more. I'm often thinking to myself, "I've experienced something that is absolutely beyond explanation, I've been to a completely different world." In a way, you feel kind of alone when talking to people who have never been there. I wish I could take people I know with me so they understand what I'm talking about.

It's fine that your really excited now, but remember when it comes time to astral project you must be claim and relaxed. Especially if your near your body which will cause you to go right back into your physical body and wake up. So stay claim when practicing, and make it casual, especially while near your body. Perhaps like 20 feet, or so away from your body, but the farther the better.

I'm also an ex Christian BTW, I hope you will continue your research into astral projection, and other similar things on your spiritual path.

Peace.

wow...thank you so much for taking the time to explain that. I've really found this all too good to be true. When I was a Christian I would spend hours on my face crying out to God to reveal Himself to me in a tangible way, take me to a spiritual dimension, let me meet Jesus, etc. I have always been an extremely spiritual person and I LONG for a taste of what you talk about. That's why I find it hard to believe about AP. Because its everything I've always wanted but never thought I could ever experience. It is too good to be true. I am trying to be patient with this process as it is a difficult one, but I think I am going to go crazy after I have my first OBE. I will probably be an emotional wreck for the rest of the day lol. I cannot wait to experience these other dimensions, explore deep space, meet my guides/other entities. I still haven't figured out how this process is supposed to work that well yet, but I'm trying every single day until I get it. Thanks again for the descriptions!

Thanks for the advice. Nice to meet another ex-Christian. I don't meet many of us lol. One of the first things I want to do when I learn to AP is actually to talk with Jesus Christ. Or the being who was once Jesus Christ of our world. I am fascinated by Him, His super-advanced consciousness for the primitive world he lived in. And most of all I want to know what His life was REALLY like. Alot has been written about Him in an attempt to make Him appear to be God and satisfy the Jewish atonement system. But the earliest writings of Him, ie gospel of Thomas, Mary, and synoptic gospels do not have any suggestion of these things. So I'd like to know if He was REALLY crucified, resurrected, etc. Maybe even get to see scenes from His real life. That would just be amazing to have some of these burning questions answered about my favorite human being who ever lived.

I'm another ex-Christian. I recently got together with one of my friends from those days when I was really into it. We were in a weekly prayer group together, but hadn't seen each other for around 10 years. He had gotten even more into being a completely devoted Christian whereas for me, I have gone away from that belief system, and especially the fear, judgment, heaven/hell etc. I feel these beliefs are limiting to ones spiritual growth. And I can, for the first time, tell someone like him that I am no longer a Christian. It takes a lot of courage for me to do it, because there is still a little fear there.

My thinking is that people who have such strict belief systems will need to go somewhere that accommodates them in the afterlife. From my own point of view, when I was really into Christianity, there is absolutely no way I could have been able to handle what I've experienced in AP. It's already difficult for me to accept what I experience there sometimes, even without such a rigid belief system. It took me years to completely unwind my "investment" into the Christian belief system and there is no way I would have been ready back then for AP, especially with the fear of evil and demons, etc. that I had.

It's really best to go into the non-physical reality with nothing but a completely open mind, ready to just take in the experience and see the truth for yourself. And also work on overcoming as much of your fear as possible. You need to be flexible so you can bend and not break when your eyes get opened.

I'll be honest I've only astral projected twice for short times when I was sick some time ago. So I don't have much experience at all, but I have read a lot of stuff on astral projection through the years.

On another note your probably not going to find Jesus, and if you do he'll probably be just a projected entity from your subconscious. These are more common in the lower realms. You can try to tell if they are real or projected by talking to them in depth and see if they give truly unique and creative answers, but even if they do give unique and creative answers they still may be not real. There is no way to really tell sometimes. At least so I heard. Perhaps some of the advanced projectors can chime in. I hope that didn't discourage you. I have never heard of an astral projector that found Jesus. Perhaps if you run into a really advanced being, you can ask if they ever heard of Jesus, and see what kind of answer you get. But if you don't keep a neutral mind, since the answer can interpreted to fit your beliefs, especially if you have been very religious, and believing in the past. That is why you have to be very neutral. This is partially how we create our own reality. And it's also why meditation can be of help in learning to be neutral. And I now see that deepspace just commented, and talked about just going in neutral like I was saying.

I recommend you read this if you haven't already. It might take a while, but it is well worth the read. Frank talks about religion and astral projection in general.

The Frank Kepple Resource
http://www.astralpulse.com/frankkepple.html

Good luck Aaron on your spiritual journey.

No that makes perfect sense, and I was actually wondering if that's what might happen. But I just figured since people meet all kinds of spirit guides and entities that AREN'T projections of their subconscious, it might be possible for me to actually find the Spirit of Jesus of Nazareth from the first century Israel. But I would probably be just as satisfied to have some answers from my spirit guides about him. They are, after all, my guides who would know everything about me and know how important these questions are. Maybe they've been researching it for me haha. I'll probably never give up until I find some answers for sure. The other reason I have hope I can meet him is because SO many people that have NDE's (as I've read on NDERF.org) meet Jesus when they die. This would be Focus 3 so I would assume that he wouldn't be a projection but probably the real deal who is meeting them there to help ease them into the afterlife, right? Just some thoughts.

And yes I actually spent about an hour reading Frank's Resource yesterday. I found it to be extremely helpful and insightful, and I couldn't put it down until I was done. Such a fantastic resource, I'll probably read it again and again.

That is encouraging to hear, as I find myself in pretty much the same place. Only I've just come out of Christianity back in August of 2013, after 24 years of being a dedicated and devout Christian. So I am very new to all of this still and even though I am convinced almost everything about Christianity is false and warped, I still find myself missing it. I miss the comfort of it, the certainty of it, the familiarity of it. So I've wondered if certain things I might encounter in the Astral plane might shock me a bit. I do consider myself to having a completely open mind, in the sense that I'm not looking for anything specifically or for any belief to be confirmed, just to have the experience.

But out of curiosity, can you give me any examples of times you found it "difficult to accept what you experienced"?

What I find to hard accept in the Non-Physical doesn't really have anything to do with Christianity specifically, but with "belief" in general. My experiences in the Non-Physical have seriously challenged my belief in the Physical World. Belief in the Physical World is the biggest belief system of all. It's easy to look at the Physical World as this sort of absolute and concrete universe. It appears to be a completely separate entity with it's own set of fixed properties, dependable, predictable, etc. It's been taught to you all your life, you also make your own observations and develop a belief system based on that even though you don't realize it. Everyone else is doing it to so you have lots of reinforcement. But then you visit the Non-Physical and, if you can have the full experience, you find out that everything you have experienced in the physical can be replicated down to the smallest detail. After repeated visits there, you learn that you are not capable of detecting the difference. You experience that first-hand, not just listen to someone telling you that. This sets up a conflict between the reality you are experiencing and your Physical World belief system which you weren't aware that you had in the first place. You can no longer just accept that the Physical World is "real" in the way you thought. On the one hand, you start to experience an incredible freedom, one you can't even describe. On the other there is the loss of the familiar, the comfortable, the secure. I know for sure that I wasn't ready for this until recently, certainly not when I was a fundamentalist Christian.

I once knew a psychologist who talked about a concept he called the "map of reality". He explained how we create the map of reality which we use to navigate through our lives here. There is a cycle of constant evaluation and change that occurs. Often what triggers a change is what he called "life crisis" events. These are events that occur in your life that force you to "remake" your map of reality. This is kind of a more extreme example, but suppose you didn't believe in life after death. Then a relative that recently died shows up in front of you one day and talks to you. That forces you at a minimum to evaluate your map. You might just go into denial and not change your map. But of course that would become more difficult if these experiences continued to happen. It can make you confused and insecure at a minimum if you don't remake your map. This is why belief systems are detrimental. They make it hard for you to accept the reality you actually experience. Jesus talks about this in the parable of the wine and wine skins, it's right there in the bible.

So this is what I'm talking about when I say it's difficult to accept. We don't realize how much we have "invested" into our Physical World beliefs until they are seriously challenged.  My opinion is that the more you get through this now, the easier the transition will be when we leave this world and go into the next one. In reality, there is a inherent conflict between security and freedom. This is why it makes complete sense to me that in the next phase there will places set up for those who are not willing or able to give up their comfort and secure belief systems.
 

Man that does make a lot of sense. I can definitely attest to having lived that way for a long time, letting my belief system keep me from accepting the reality I experienced. Although thankfully I was never a fundamentalist type Christian (railing against homosexuality, believe in an angry God, hell, rapture, etc). I always had problems with hell, the rapture and all the other weird doctrines Christianity teaches. I never believed in them but I didn't know what I DID believe in. Before I left Christianity I was actually working at a church as a full time worship pastor, and quit because I was so tired of hearing the "us vs them" way of thinking, hell, rapture, etc. I was losing my mind. I studied so much that I was able to prove to anyone beyond doubt that hell is never taught or mentioned in the Bible. It was really fun, and I still do it from time to time lol. Now I find the conversation boring and pointless. I got tired of arguing with fundamentalists and it started to really depress me. I saw how their fundamentalism was literally rotting their brain, inhibiting them from thinking critically or intelligently, impossible to see from ANY perspective other than their own, no capacity to understand true logic, etc.

This is a short summary of the last conversation I had on facebook with a fundy a few months ago:

me: But if you have openly admitted to me that you would never send any of your kids to an eternal torture chamber, no matter what kind of evil they had done, why would God? The Bible says His ways are HIGHER than our ways. And His mercy for us is higher than the heavens are above the earth. If you are able to just FORGIVE your child, why couldn't God?

Them: God's ways are higher than our ways means that we wouldn't torture our kids cuz we're selfish. God would because he's just.

Me: but just means "fair". Finite amount of sin= infinite punishment? That's not just. We throw people in jail for hurting their kids, whether or not the kids misbehaved. You're telling me that's righteous? We should let parents abuse their children?

Them: It's unrighteous when a person does it cuz they don't know the exact amount of punishment to inflict. God does. That's why its righteous when He does it.

Me: So in your opinion its righteous to punish a 15 year old girl, who only commits a few hundred sins in her short lifetime, for a hundred trillion years?

Them: If God does it, then it is just. So yes.

Me: Is there any chance you could be wrong about this belief? Are you open to the possibility of being wrong?

Them: No. It says so in God's Word.

Me: Actually it doesn't. You've been taught how to interpret certain passages. The Word hell wasn't even translated into the Bible until the 14th century by Martin Luther. It has been falsely mistranslated by fundamentalist translators to shove their agenda into the Bible. The only words the Bible has is 1)"Sheol" = the Grave  2) "Gehenna" = A valley on the west side of Jerusalem  3) Hades = the underworld of greek mythology ruled by the greek god Hades.

Them: No, I know that hell is real because my NIV Bible has the word hell in it over 25 times. The Bible also warns of false teachers like you arising in the last days, that even the very elect would be deceived. Well you won't deceive me, false prophet. I'm standing strong on the word of God!

Me: Ok, nevermind. Have a nice day.


So yea, I see your point as well about people like this need a special place to go when they die so they can slowly phase out of their dogma's and doctrines that they've built over their whole lives. It's just sad to me because I want to help these people out of these horrifying belief systems so that they can actually live a good life free of the fear, shame and guilt. But it just seems impossible sometimes. I've had success with 3 or 4 people actually but for 90% of them, there's no chance of ever having a real open conversation about anything they believe. I'm am thankful that the Universe brought me out of that religion though in the radical way that it did. I am forever grateful :-)

You sound like me. LOL Except I don't say never mind. LOL I am almost always on a higher level in talking to christains. I have pulled a Christian out of a fundamentalist church through talking with him online, though he wasn't so fundamentalist. I did it through talking to him and debating. And most of all showing him things he never knew before. I still plan on doing that some more, going back on Christian forums, and saving a few more people from the darkness of ignorance before I die. Don't worry I'm still young and have time.

We have to save people, and bring them into the kingdom of truth and reality, and save them from the darkness of ignorance.  :-D  caugh Whenever we can. caugh

Hahaha!! I love it man, that cracks me up. Believe me, the skill of saying "ok nevermind" has been acquired after years of fierce debating. I try to take the road of peace and respect to show them which one of us has better "fruit" in that sense. But most of the time I can't keep myself from owning them in debates, because they just beg for it most of the time. Christians say some of the most ignorant things and its so easy to take apart their arguments because 1) They are built to ignore logic and only use the Bible 2) I have been a Christian all my life so I already know every argument they can make 3) I know the Bible better than most of them because I am a PK and went to Bible College.

So for those reasons it makes it extremely hard to resist a debate, but its never for the purpose of putting them down or "winning". It's for the sole purpose of getting them to question their dark, ignorant beliefs like you said. I want to set as many people free as possible. Luckily there are a growing number of people like you and I out there. We are watching the slow painful death of religion unfold a little more each year. As they lose more of their rights to be bigots, like we're seeing now with homosexuality, it starts to open more people's eyes to the truth and more people begin to step out of the religion and into spirituality.

Glad to meet someone else like me! Sometimes I feel like its me vs. the entire world of fundamentalism. So its good to know there are others out there "fighting the good fight" lol

I tried to believe in these things, because I was supposed to, but not sure I really did deep down. You try to make yourself believe it, but end up being conflicted. I was just thinking about it today. They were always saying things like "Well you can't trust your own judgement, but of course you can trust everything WE tell you and you don't question it! It's so easy, just swallow this belief system whole like a big pill. Everything you need is right in this book called the bible. It tells you exactly what to believe and think about everything. You don't have to think about anything!" 


Was on a flight recently and had a conversation similar to this with a fundy Christian couple sitting next to me. We were talking about heaven and   
hell, etc. I told them that I thought Christians would have their own version of Heaven, which would basically closed off to anyone who hadn't chosen Jesus. And they could believe anything they wanted about other people going to hell, and just assume that if you didn't make it there, you went to the "Other" place. Of course they would never really know. I told them that I had also made the same choice they did to believe in Jesus, so unless they believed you could lose your salvation, I could also show up there if I wanted. The woman said with a sad face, "But don't you want to go to our heaven?" "No" I answered, "Not really" Then I asked them. What if someone said to you "What you are believing is not true, come and I can will show you. Would you listen to them?" And they said no they wouldn't. Because they already know the truth and it's in the bible. Very sad. Made me so glad I was not into that any more.

 

Yikes, that must have been an uncomfortable conversation lol. At least for me it would be, I get so uneasy around fundy's because I know how judgmental and critical they are. But I love that you told them "no, not really" LOL that probably shocked them. But that's exactly what I tell people, "Your idea of heaven is a sick, twisted place full of people who are perfectly happy that billions of people are suffering unimaginable, ineffable torment forever. And this angry egomaniac of a God is expecting a constant stream of compliments (praise & worship) from everything from people, angels, to the blades of grass. He's an insecure sadistic tyrant with some serious anger management issues and I imagine Jesus would be leading a protest against Him to get all those poor people out of hell and just forgive them already. Your version of heaven is for mentally disturbed people".

I also love how you worded that first paragraph. Perfect description. I was forcefed all those answers although none of them ever sat right with me and I had tons of questions I would always be asking in youth group, and they were only ok with me asking those questions as long as I arrived at the answers that they approved of. And I usually didn't. Looking back I can't believe it took me 24 years to come out of it, but I guess it shows you the power of brainwashing that a community like Christianity and Church can have on people's psyche's.

It's funny to me that the church who claims to have all the answers doesn't allow for difficult questions to be asked lol.

I was a little nervous, but fairly confident mainly because I have really thought about it a lot. It's taken me many years to deprogram myself. The fear of judgment and hell really slowed down my ability to change. But getting back to the Christian heaven, talking to them made me think about it even more. With all the fear when I was into Christianity, especially about demons, evil, etc. the Christian heaven would have probably been the only place I could go and feel safe. I would expect a mono-culture there of like minded entities so no chance for any negative influences. But then they have to stay within the confines of this construct and probably would be too afraid to venture out beyond it for fear of the evil spirits lurking beyond it's borders. And everyone there would be reinforcing that idea, no dissenters. I would imagine getting out of it at that point would be pretty difficult. So there's the trade-off. They have security and safety, but they are not really free.

So I was really prepared to answer her question and explained why I wouldn't go there, although I should be able to. But this is why we really need to work through our fears in this life. Speaking from my own experience, fear is what drives a lot of people to give up their freedom and become slaves of one kind or another.

Heck if you went to bible college then you might be better at it than me. But I have been studying the other side a lot more I am sure.



Yeah, I agree.


Don't worry we have the light of reality, and truth on our side. And so it doesn't matter in the long run, since this truth and reality will eat their religion away from the inside out in time; starting with the light of science, which will pave the way for people to let go of limiting beliefs.

I suggest that you take a break from it, but if you can go back and help some more, do it. I had to take a break from the debating, since it does seem to have a negative effect if it's overly done.

I'm glad you find some comfort in knowing your not alone, as I do to.


I felt the same way for the longest especially since my parents used corporeal punishment and they didn't let me watch hardly any TV when I was young up until maybe 10 years old or more. Though we did watch the news, and sometimes things like sesame street, and kids shows. We didn't listen to music unless it was Christian. Expect they let us get by with listening to classical. They told us things like science were for secular people, and going to college was for secular people, and maybe some types of Christian gains can go to college, but not for us. Even though my mom went to college. Yeah it was terrible. We believed there was going to be a war in here in America for the longest. We even stored up food. LOL They were terribly out of touch with reality, since my dad depended on dreams from God for guidance, and the husband was always right over the wife according to their translation of the bible. It was like in a cult, probably worse than what you guys had. Luckily they stopped being so strict, and us kids got the freedom to a degree to have friends and go outside a lot, and eventually watch cable TV. So yeah their strict beliefs along with this this idea that we were the chosen ones, and we had to separated from the rest of the world was really far out there. And it took years of a terrible health condition, and my dad to die, before I finally snap out of it. The odd thing was my health condition was partially brought on by my own delusional beliefs and actions. Such as not seeing a doctor right away, believing I was strong and God would protect me. And even once I was messed up, that God was going to heal me. Which never happened. The doctors, and I healed myself. I'll just say that I lost a ton of weight over a couple of years, and lost a lot of strength in my body, especially my right foot. My progress has been very slow. So at least for me, my christian beliefs have caused more problems than helped IMO. It's been tough on me.

Luckily I am doing better mostly with my beliefs. I had actually believed in reincarnation even as a Christian years ago, along with NDE's. But I didn't grow with it. Jesus clearly says for instance that John the baptist is Elijah who was to come. And that was backed up by the angel, and an OT prophesy.

Peace.

The worst part about the brainwashing they attempt to do is scare people away from thinking for themselves. We all have a built-in ability to know the truth if we seek it, without the help of anyone telling us. So in order to get us believe these lies, they have to keep reinforcing them because if you are left on your own, your intuition will eventually let you know that they are not true. All you have to do is listen to it and stop blocking it out.

Yeah good way to put it. The reason why is that their gospel is not inherent within the boundless self, except for those that already have a lot of guilt and might feel the need for simple minded comfort from Jesus' blood. But any real discernment, without the emotions of a terrorizing God should break away from that stuff.

IDK where any of you'll have debated in the past online, but Christian forums has a formal debate section now.

Formal Debate A forum for formal debates.
http://www.christianforums.com/f1127/

This should keep things more professional and formal. So far theycallmedave seems to main Christian to use it so far.

Peace.

I try to avoid getting into debates, usually no one's mind gets changed. Besides, they are generally very negative and end up bringing down my energy level. I am of the conviction that when people are ready to see the truth, they will see it. I believe it's a Japanese saying that says: "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear".

I just try to encourage people to think for themselves and learn to trust their own judgement. That's all they need to do really. They will find the truth. For some, it may take a very long time from the short perspective of our lives here.

The thing with me is, I feel an obligation to help them as I see them as a part of myself. And I also know that I had some kind of spirit guild helping me through my life and I was so stubborn and messed up so much that I need to do this for them. Kind of like how one helps another since they were helped. Perhaps I will reach the point you are at, I am not there yet, but I'd be happy bringing just a few more over to the other side. I've thought about targeting christains that were new, and young on the forums, since the old ones with thousands of posts would have already been more likely to be set in their ways. The guy I did bring over to the other side was relatively new and young. By young I mean college age as being the best. In other words I think there are ways to narrow the search for people to help.  Also I realize debating is not for everyone. Anyway those are my thoughts.

Peace.

Challenging a person's belief system can be dangerous (research 99% of all wars) so always be respectful and leave open the possibility that you yourself may be the one who is wrong.

I am a recovering Catholic so I understand how hard it is to let go of a belief system that is sustained through fear and intimidation. I wholeheartedly believe that Jesus Christ walked this planet and should be revered but like everything else that is good in this world, someone will find a way to make a buck and corrupt the principles.

I'm pretty sure that there isn't a person in this world who has complete faith in their belief system but many will defend theirs vehemently just to put on a good show for the "almighty".

Anyways, I've read a lot of threads where ex-christians get together and bash their old beliefs but you guys have been the most respectful. That says a lot.

Your saying that 99 percent of wars are caused by debate? That makes no sense to me. That might be in third world counties where they haven't learned tolerance or critical thinking. Especially given that we are not in a dangerous place like the middle east or something. I can see challenging a persons beliefs system through laws, and people forcing their will on others but we are talking about debating online in a respectful manner. Perhaps you can explain that a bit more.

I'm a Universalist, so I can't be too wrong.  :wink:  But no, I get what you mean. BTW I don't like being labeled a Universalist, that is just the closet thing I could come to, in some way.

Hey I kind of agree with you on the idea that Jesus is real. I just don't believe it as strongly as you probably. But I have good reason to think Jesus might/probably be real. On the other hand I don't. I see it both ways.

Yeah I've used the Acronym IMHO "In my humble opinion" at times to show respect.

It seems that there are more ex-christians here than what I had thought. I know of another, but I don't want to mention his name unless he wants too.

Peace.

Well, that wasn't quite the point I was trying to make but I believe that you actually distilled it further to the truth. People disagree on something that is very important to them and people tend to get hurt.


By all means, please continue. I am enjoying your discussion and did not mean to imply that you should stop. I was merely acknowledging that it is a rare thing to see people keeping the peace while discussing topics that can be sensitive to some (I'm not a sensitive person, to be clear).


IMHO is not a necessary disclaimer here. :-)

I am struggling with this whole issue right now.  My daughter's good friend is a fundamentalist Christian, and recently she has started in on my daughter, trying every trick in the book to evangelize her.  I'm helping her with what to say, as I spent several years in this kind of church and know all their tactics.  Well, things were going pretty well along these lines.  We were able to shut the friend down without hurting the friendship...until things got worse.  Found out that not only is she literal bible, but also a historical revisionist. She believes that Jesus wasn't a Jew...he was white...  only the white race are God's chosen people...the holocaust probably didn't happen.  She's sending my daughter all this revisionist material.  It's all just so heartbreaking and infuriating.  Hard to know how to proceed.  My daughter is 15.  Still under our influence but also growing up and becoming independent.  If it's all up to me I would have her cut ties.  My daughter, unfortunately, values the friendship.  This kind of thing is such a subtle brainwashing influence.  It's one thing when it's you...so much tougher when your children are involved. This extreme right wing Christian influence is more prevalent around here than I thought.   :(

Yeah that sounds extremely fundamentalist, and narrow minded. I'm not really sure what to suggest to you other than talk to her, and maybe get her into NDEs which would help open her mind. There are Christian NDEs to draw christains into NDE's and higher truths. Hey Christian NDEs is what lead me to higher spiritual truths.

This is a tough NDE I am posting bellow, that I probably would not recommend this for her, but you can probably take this one, as christains might call it meat and not milk. If you want a good christain NDE I can get one other than this.

Note this is not a Buddhist NDE, it's just labeled that because that is probably the closet religion that westerns can put this NDE into. BTW most NDE's are not like this. This is a rare gem in the haystack. But there are plenty more NDEs that I hope can help, and challenge you and her into higher spiritual truths. Though I must admit astral projectors tend to give more stable truths about the afterlife than NDEers. But I learn from both.

Near Death Experiences - NDE - Buddhist Like NDE ( NDE accounts )
http://youtu.be/-lxJTWNy0g4

Besides this neurosurgeon Eben Alexanders NDE is a great read. He was a agnostic before his NDE, now he is a theist, but not a Christian. What makes it compelling was that he was a neurosurgeon. He's been very popular in the NDE community. I've read his book. Great read.

Though I must admit NDEs can be limiting, depending on what you can get form it all, and who you listen to on it. Since there are many types of NDEs, but they all have underlying themes and truths. I don't know if you have researched NDEs but.

Other than that, you can encourage her to go to meetup.com and meet other people other than fundamentalist christains.

Peace.

Dude I love Eben Alexander's book "Proof of Heaven". That book actually brought me into all of this. I read it in 16 hours lol. When I officially left Christianity I became really depressed after realizing everything I believed was a lie. I even questioned the existence of God altogether, and any form of life after death. I started to believe that when we die, we are simply gone forever. That was when I started researching NDE's so I could prove myself wrong. If found Eben's book and felt so liberated, it was incredible! And I've been on this path ever since and have found out that the truth is better and more beautiful than I could have imagined.

I must say that NDEs have opened my mind a lot and have had quite an influence on my spiritual life. My favorite is Nanci Danison's because she shares so many details and a lot of it I have also experienced during AP. Unlike the world's major religions, NDEs share so many common elements, yet their consistencies span the length of recorded history, all age groups, cultures, nationalities, races, religious beliefs, you name it. There is a theory that all of the major religions have gotten much of their basic theology from NDEs. That wouldn't surprise me. These are basically eye witness testimonies vs. someone's book that was written a thousand years ago. If a thousand people say, "hey I went there, and this is what happened" and then you look at their testimony, and they have 95% agreement, you have to give some credibility to what they are saying. For example, almost every NDE experiencer says there was no judgement. So you have the fundamentalist Christians saying there is judgement based on the bible, but then all of these people who went there and reported what happened. The Christians say, "Oh they were all being deceived by the devil" or whatever. But of course anyone who disagrees with them has been deceived.

I have to go to bed right now, but I just had to have seen Nanci Danison's NDE too. Though only on youtube LOL It's right up there was Ebens, I swear. So feel free to check that one out too Aaron.

Peace.

Dude that's something I've been saying to my christian friends/family for months now. I'm giving everyone the link to NDERF.org and saying "go research for yourself. Read these accounts. You'll find that 95% of them all say the EXACT same things. You cannot ignore this". Especially about the non-judgment part too. Nanci Danison was the NDE I found right after Eben Alexander, and after I watched a few videos of her I bought her book and read it as well. That book is AMAZING, you guys gotta go read it. I got it on Kindle. It's called "Backwards: Returning to our Source for answers". The craziest thing is she talks alot about our pre-incarnate state and our spirit guides, the process of how we choose to come here, etc. And I thought it sounded a bit far-fetch'd at first, but I kept reading and reading the testimonials on NDERF.org, and every once and a while I'd run into someone who confirmed what she said. One lady talks about being angry with the source and asking why he created her to have such a horrible life. And he says "don't you remember? You chose this life even though your Spirit guide advised you against it" and then her guide shows up and shows her the memory of her choosing the life against her guide's advice, and she went "wow, I remember that now". I was like "WOAH That's a real thing?!" lol

You can imagine what a roller-coaster ride it felt like to learn all of this stuff after coming out of Christianity just a few months earlier.

They get to be pretty real . For the couple random times I had an OBE occur took place in my room, very early in the morning.

I was greeted by black creatures that formed from the shapes of objects in my room. I knew I was in the midst of an OBE but I wasn't well developed enough to fully move my body.

But OBEs and Astral Projection will get to feel as real as vivid as your conscious living the more time you work on it.

Plasma--Thanks for the link on Buddhist like NDE.  I hadn't seen that one.  It was excellent!  I do collect NDEs and love Eben Alexander's book too.  If you do have that Christian one you mentioned, I'd love to take a look at it. --Thanks! 

Well I just typed out a big reply, and the computer turned off, and lost all of it, so I will try to sum this up.

I was fascinated by this christian NDE for many years, though I didn’t grow past it since I didn’t know about astral projection and other things. I didn’t even check out other religions seriously at all.

OK the christian NDE I am thinking is of Howard Storm. He was an atheist, artist, and university professor. He was the type of guy that didn’t take crap from anyone, and he was probably somewhat of a bully in school at least. He died for about 20 minutes I think it was. I hypothesized that when he initially died that he was in the real time zone. Then according to Howard he was lured into the hell realms by what he thought was hospital staff. Though their faces were plastic like, and ugly I think he said. He first though they were hospital staff. And so they lured him deep into the hell realms, and to a place where the properties of that realm was differnet than they type of suffering that is possible in the upper realms. So they had him good, really good. And they beat the living crap out of him, in the most horrible ways you can imagine. Perhaps beat is not the best word to explain hell or the astral but that is the best I could come up with right now. Then Jesus saved him, and he came back with great revelations. I have some very rare MP3’s of Howard Storm on audio too. Things that you can’t even read in his book. If you want them I will send them to you. I really hope my memory serves me correctly when I say this, but If you get his book you have to get his old one. The one that is more uncensored edition. Since his new book omits some parts that christians wouldn’t like.  It’s the 2000 edition “My Descent Into Death: And the Message of Love Which Brought Me Back”. If you want I will tell you more about the book but I want you to get the book and I don’t really want to spoil it.

I see this all the time where a Christian or especially an ex-Christian gets an NDE, and they go to hell or heaven, and they come back totally convinced the bible is real with all it’s propaganda and baggage. And they claim emphatically the bible is real. All of it. This is bad for spiritual growth. So for instance in this NDE I posted below she commits suicide, goes to hell, then this loving light comes, and then she is back in her body, and calls 911. So she survives. Then she automatically goes to the traditional religion she knows best and thinks. OMG bible is absolutely real. And then they repent and continue the narrow minded view of spirituality. Christians can’t grow fundamentally past a certain point. I recently talked about this to my friend and I pointed out that christians can only grow to a certain point, and then they get this ceiling effect in their growth. The reason is their bible can never add anything to it, or take anything out, as revelation says. And their light will become more and more dim as the light of science will continue to grow into countless mellinas to come. Science is the most stable path to God, and ending suffering on earth. Since there is no separation between the spiritual and the natural. If the spiritual exits we will find it in time. And as I have said in the past, one day we will astral project on demand with the help of science and technology. My thinking is why head of most people on this. And I can explain why this is so, but it would take a while. So check out this NDE and you will see that she never saw or talked to Jesus, and she never talked to God yet somehow now, she thinks the bible is totally real and true and her NDE.

Woman Discovers Hell is Real
http://youtu.be/EhKM37fVwOQ

So what I am really trying to point out here is that you must be very careful in reading christian NDEs. And think critically about them. All NDEs need some critical thinking. There are many NDEs that contradict each other, but from understanding astral projection you come to realize that some of these NDEs are totally created in the mind of the beholder. Or they were just made up to get money. I don’t try to totally believe in just one NDE, or a set of them, but I take a look at the whole picture, and see what are the similarities. And we learn that the type of NDE depends on the beliefs of the person. And this is confirmed with astral projection to a degree. And I have my theories about all this too, since it’s possible that DMT, and other psychedelic tryptamines are released during NDEs, which might make the NDEs more centered around their beliefs, even if they are out of their body. This is where psychedelic research is good to know. Since if you understand more fully how psychedelics work it may help in some ways in understanding the NDE.  I am not totally convinced that all NDEs have nothing to do with the brain. I know many people here don’t think psychedelics have anything to offer, but if you read the testimonies of things like DMT and Iboga and the like, its absolutely stunning what they report. We are not talking about hard drugs like heroin and crack cocaine here. We are talking about psychedelic spiritual molecules and plants, that alter reality for a short time, and at high enough doses they can show you the height of heaven, or the depths of hell. Though the hells are rare, there are ways to prevent the hellish ones, and ways to make bad trips easier. But most all experiences of bad trips and trips to hell report coming out a better person in the end. And psychedelics have been known to cause you to astral project, and talk to extraterrestrials in the heavenlies. If you read trip reports I must say that we are multidimensional beings, so any confusion about being in the body or out of the body or in two places at once is all in the realm of possibility. I’ve read of a few astral projections where the projector had astral projected into the astral yet they were totally aware of their physical body while simlutatiously totally aware of their astral body. Ex-NASA Aeronautical Engineer/scientist Albert Taylor talked about this. So it’s totally possible for one to talk about being in the body and out of the body. And certainly there is a connection. Since if one has astral sex the body cums and you immediately go back to the body. Meaning IMO the psychedelics could very well make one trip while astral journeying, since there is always some kind of connection. Sometimes I think the powerful psychedelic experiences are like a full body remote viewing, with a filter from the psychedelic which cases fractals, on the heavenly realities they go to. Anyway I rarely recommend taking psychedelics, though I do think the trip reports have a lot of valuable things to teach us. And if your a bit skeptical let me just tell you what is possible. I have read many reports by those who were very much naturalist or atheist or agnostic. And when they have a DMT trip and go into the heavenlies, and talk to extraterrestrials in an experience with a reality that is 50 times more powerful than this reality here on earth, they came back a changed person forever in one way or another. Those that are in the know know exactly what I am talking about. It’s so powerful that it’s undeniable. Many of them come back and say things like “IDK if there is a God or an afterlife, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there was.” Many of them evaluate their perspectives and are generally much more open minded. Sorry I tend to digress easy but this is just as valuable as NDEs..

In the end I have found large parts of the picture God/reality/truth is painting for us. And it keeps growing.

And somehow this post ended up bigger than the last that got lost. LOL

PS keep an open mind toward psychedelics until you read what is really possible with them from the actual users, and not the government propaganda, or even some of the people here at astral pulse. As I think cutting them out of the spiritual picture in the grand scheme of things is a big mistake. They were made for a purpose, though they are not for everyone.

Peace.

I actually just read the Howard Storm book a few months ago.  Sorry you had to write all that about it! --but actually I'm glad you did because I didn't know there was an older version.  I'd like to get a hold of that.  Mine is 2005.  I did notice that the book had left out some very key points compared to the You-tube testimony I watched of him.--the part about all the different E.T.s he saw.  Makes me wonder what else is missing! 

You definitely have to be on your guard when watching/reading NDEs.  I always discern between their actual experience and their INTERPRETATION of their experience.

Yes, it is interesting that you can be aware of your physical body while having an NDE or OBE.  I experienced that in one of my projections a few months ago.  I was flying above a soccer field watching the game when I became aware of my physical body.  I realized I could hardly breath.  I was congested and could feel myself trying to draw air in through my nose and into my lungs.  I could feel my chest rising and falling.  It was a strange feeling of being in the 2 places at the same time.  Not as amazing, I suppose as those ones where the projector is riding a motorcycle in the physical and projecting at the same time!--but a very interesting sensation all the same.

I haven't really looked into psychedelics because I can project without them, but yes they are definitely on this earth for a reason!  Thanks for the link.  I hadn't seen that one either.  I know what she means when she says she actually 'became' depression.  I've had that experience many times in my APs where I just 'become' pure love like in the NDEs.  Mind blowing experience!!!

Can't wait to experience that ^^^

I think all belief systems, not just Christianity will limit your spiritual growth at some point. I'm talking about fixed belief systems (typically they are). NDEs are another form of AP, but of course with a focus on the afterlife which makes them different from the average AP. I have experienced many elements of the typical NDE in my APs. Spirits guides, meeting relatives that have passed on, going through the void, tunnel, incredible scenery, surreal cities, etc.


A lot of the Christian NDEs tend to confirm their already established belief system so you have to take them with a grain of salt. This is why it's best to go into any Astral Projection without belief system baggage. Otherwise you just end up projecting your belief system and then reading it back to yourself. It's what you might call a self-fulfilling prophecy. Just like you are saying, you have to look at whole picture and when you do NDEs have a very common description of the after-life.  


I have been impressed with some of the DMT trip reports I've read, they definitely are projecting. But one of problems with substances like DMT is like Tom Campbell says: "You don't want to blast yourself into the non-physical reality". Especially when you can get there in a much more manageable way naturally. Judging by the experiences I've had in the non-physical with AP, I really don't see how you could add to them. They are 100% real, alternate realities that can be experienced by all of your senses without any distortion and full consciousness. How do you top that?

Psychedelics have been used since the beginning (whenever that was) so I think it is foolish and rather ignorant to discount their validity. My only issue with them is that not everyone uses them in a safe manner, especially kids ( and by kids I mean teens). It's difficult to navigate one reality safely with all your senses. Dull those senses and throw in another reality or two with some dumb advice to boot and it can get ugly.

I'm aware that there aren't many deaths attributed to kids "tripping" but it happens and there are other dangers as well. I had a friend that drove while he was on shrooms and he hit a culvert head-on at eighty miles an hour. Unfortunately for him, he lived but his sober sister died. He's had eight reconstructive surgeries to his face alone and it's still hard to look at him for more than a couple of seconds. Yeab, I know everyone has a "friend" that helps them prove a point but sometimes it happens to be true. :-(

Many teens read and use this site so I like to keep it real for them.

But yes, psychedelics do have their place.

I'm not doubting the validity of them, but having done both I can say that my experiences with Astral Projection are far superior. I don't think most people have experienced a really high-end AP/OBE. If could just take people there, we wouldn't need to have this conversation. But of course AP is more difficult to achieve and less intense. But it is a completely separate alternate reality that can be experienced without distortion in the same way you experience waking life. You are completely coherent, visuals are sharp. All your sense are sharp. You can think clearly and evaluate the experience while it's going on. You can remember the details clearly and able make decisions in real time. One problem with psychedelics is the distortions. You do LSD and you are the same room, but you see the walls melting for example. The colors are wild and swirling, but it's more like a fantasy that's out of control. With a really good AP, the walls are normal (and touchable down to the bumps in the surface), it's just that you are in a different building altogether. For me, psychedelics let me know that it was possible to experience an alternate reality, but there is better way to have the experience. After the experiences I've had so far in the Non-physical, I can't even imagine going back to using psychedelics. It would be a huge disappointment.

You say that you have done psychedelics, but I want to know if you have went to the heavenly realms with them and talked to extraterrestrials? Since I think there is a difference there versus just having a low dose trip. Meaning I think you might think a little differently of them if you didn't have such a strong experience. Also if you did have such an experience which psychedelic did you take? I am pretty knowledgeable about them.

I am questioning here whether astral projection and psychedelics should always be mutually exclusive from each other on the spiritual path? Whether it's always a good idea to not combine them. I know this is something none of us has evidence or proof of, but I like to get into tantalizing questions such as these. I mean perhaps psychedelics clears the energy body so that astral projectors can start to go higher or deeper into the astral. I am not totally convinced that they should always be mutually exclusive that is all. BTW I am not trying to get anyone here to take them at all in anyway. I am just have to be totally real here.

And to kind of support this idea I have heard that Iboga is better than DMT since it takes away more of the filter for the heavenly messages being conveyed. So if there is a way to tone down that filter then it would definitely be more appealing. I am kind of philosophizing here so.

Peace.

I've been wondering about these for a while after having watched the DMT Documentary with Joe Rogan on netflix. DMT is mostly safe since our bodies produce it, is it not? I wonder if it would help beginners get their first projection or two to get a feel for it if they only took a low dosage to help induce it. Also, what is Iboga?

Sorry, deepspace. I was not commenting on you specifically and agree with you completely. :-)

Yes DMT is made endogenously in the body, we don't know 100 percent that it's made in the pineal gland as many claim, but rather that the pineal gald is the most likely place DMT was released from what I understand. 5-MEO-DMT is also made endogenously by our bodies and per weight it's about 10 times stronger than DMT. Which is more centered around feeling rather than seeing that DMT normally gives. Anyway Joe Rogan has his own show where he talks about psychedelics at times. So he is very familiar with them it seems, and probably a good source of information on them. Though it took me a while to get use to his cursing, once you get past that you understand his underlying character and intent, which is more important that the cursing he picked up in his life. As a Christian that didn't curse, I at times have a hard time dealing with a lot of cursing, but have since looked past it if they actually have a good point to make behind their cursing.

I should mention that some people trip while not even taking psychedelics. It's like the body learns how to make it's own psychedelics. This usually only happens in people that have used a bit of psychedelics themselves in life.


No doubt it can make one astral project, but I would seriously caution against it if you can, since it might be that it lowers your ability to astral project on your own naturally. Then again they might act as training wheels, then again they a small dose slowly build up would work as training wheels, yet a high dose the first time would do more harm than good for your energy body. There is really no way to know for sure right now. Science and experimentation is the only way to know anything definitive, and that would take a very long time. That is why I say I rarely recommend using them though I think actual trip reports from actual long time users can have a lot to teach us. So again I am in no way trying to promote illegal use here, but rather I think that we can learn a lot from the people who have used them. And again they have to have a place in the grand scheme of things for the spiritual path. Many who started out with a psychedelic ended up getting into meditation, and astral projection. So at the least we know that they act as a stepping stone.

In the end mixing the two in the spiritual path may be a bumpy road that doesn't mix well, we just don't know.

Well I heard Joe Rogan mention that Iboga didn't have all the extra layers or should I say filters over the heavenly message that DMT normally has, that is all. Also I think at least that one time Rogan took Iboga, he was with fasting when he did. So the fasting might have made a difference, IDK. Also it would only make sense to me that some psychedelics would filter the spiritual messages more than other psychedelics. I generally trust Joe Rogan on psychedelics, since I know he's done them a lot.

Psychedelics like DMT, 5-MEO-DMT, ayahuasca, some types of shrooms, they are nothing to mess around with, don't expect to take them at a party and have fun all night like MDMA. They are meant for serious spiritual seekers of a certain kind. If you think your going to party with them you will have a rude awakening. Humility and respect is what they demand with any serious use. I am not talking to those of you who know this, or don't party, or who don't care about psychedelic research.

Peace.

I've only done LSD, so can't comment on others. And no, I haven't visited ETs or gone to heaven, either on LSD or in AP. From what I've read, DMT seems to be the most like Astral Projection and in fact we may be tripping on it when we are doing AP since we are probably producing it naturally. A good read on this is "The Spirit Molecule" by Rick Strassman. His theory is that our Pineal Gland produces DMT and we are tripping on it at times. Many people have disagreed with him basically calling him a quack. But last year they found DMT in the Pineal Glands of mice so he could be right.

I don't advocate using Psychedelics, but they have a place for sure. In my opinion, the value of an experience is what you can take back from it. How it helps you or someone else. I know that high doses of Psychedelics will give you a more intense experience, but I think there's a lot of value to having all your faculties perfectly intact, being in control, etc. When I visit these alternate realities, I want to make sense out of it and also to have clear memories of the experience. If I can't handle it which happens from time to time, I can come back instantly. In AP, I get the experiences I need and am ready for. That's most important to me.  

There are some beliefs that are better than others. For instance religions or should I say practices that use many hours of meditation in their practice actually attain very high states of being. With actual real life effects now, and in the afterlife. Being able to go into the heavenlies as they choose. It all comes down to practice. It requires at least 40,000 to 80,000 hours of meditation in a lifetime to make a real difference though. It's not easy but everyone can do it with real dedication. So it's not easy, but rather than singling out religions with baggage I would narrow down the search to where people in which religions actually have the ability to go higher into the astral or the heavens at death. That would be the religion to be looked at.  I know this kind of search is hard to do. But using common sense one can get a general good idea of what it takes, it doesn't take a religion, but rather the time it takes to get results with a certain practice. And when i say results, it mean spiritual results, not so much physical results. Such as number of people saved.

Lastly try researching the pinnacle of the spiritual path in all major religions. I think you will see that the pinnicple of the meditational religions is the highest practice there is. The heart of reality can be attained in this lifetime, in Buddhism it's called Shunyata or nirvana, in Taoism it's called wu chi, in Hinduism it's called the unmanifest or Brahman. The heart of reality is very much the same in all of these meditational religions. This place of pure peace, where there is no from, no sight, no sound, no emotions, no thing, there is nothing, it's absolute nothingness, yet it's full volume. The reason why is that if you go there, you become sight itself, the sound , the emotions, and the touch. It's a place of utter purity where no action can be taken. It's ineffably everything you could ever want in one. It's the heart of your being. Just like you phase to go into the astral. Well if you keep on phasing into the dimensions above you will finally reach God himself. It's a place of full volume yet, nothing is there. Your like a drop in an ocean. It is relative, yet ultimate. It is the heart of God himself, where you can God are one. There is no talking to God in this place of the holiest of the holies, but only merging with God, in utter surrender to all that is.

My point here is that I have never heard of a Christian talk about reaching such a pinnacle so high, or being so humble from the inside out. The dedication is huge but the pay off is uncountable. Thus the ceiling effect in Christianity versus a dedicated lifetime of meditational practice. Which gives actual results.

Peace.

OK well that helps. I would be curious what the opinion of one that has been to the height of the psychedelic experience, and also astral projected naturally a bit would have to say on the differences between them. I know I've heard some people say the only way to go is all in 100 percent. But that might cause a very hellish experience for some on their first, use which is not good. Meaning getting the breakthrough as they call it is what you really want in the psychedelic experience, and I don't think you reached that yet.


Lastly I think it's a little out of context to call astral projection "far superior" to psychedelics if you haven't gotten a breakthrough experience with psychedelics yet. As we need to compare apples with apples, and oranges with oranges here. To be honest even if you had a couple of breakthroughs we might still be comparing apples and oranges but it would be better than you not having any breakthrough. I'm just trying to keep things real.

Yet your experiences and opinion is adds some value here, thanks for sharing.

Peace.

How do you know if I had a "breakthrough" experience or not? Just curious. There are also what I would call "breakthrough" experiences in AP for sure. I think you have to be careful when attempting to judge the value of other people's experiences, it's best to stick with your own. I'm trying to express my opinion about psychedelics which is based on my experiences only. Other's may have different ones based on theirs.


Thanks, that's kind of you.

It's hard to get an exact definition, but if I were to take an educated guess it would be where you get out of body for your psychedelic trip. For DMT users this is called "DMT hyperspace". It's where you aren't even in your body anymore, and you often don't have any memory of your life on earth while there or any memory of who you were. And you in just utter bliss and oneness in the heavenlies, and while there you can be given messages which often help you in your spiritual path. That is what I call a breakthrough from what I kind of remember. It's been a little while, but I think I got a pretty good idea here.

BTW in talking about "how do OBE's compare to the physical reality" this is kind of related I guess. It's just under the filters of the psychedelic when talking about a breakthrough trip.

As far as attempting to interpret other experiences I don't have much of a choice as of right now. I have done very well in interpreting others experience so far generally speaking. And if I didn't do any interpreting and judging I would be even more lost on the bigger spiritual picture of what is going on in the world. In attempting to judge your psychedelic experience it's not like I am comparing apples and oranges IMO. Like comparing your psychedelic experience to that of a Christian, but rather I am comparing your psychedelic experience with other psychedelic experiences, all at face value. I am looking at what other users report too in contrast to yours. Certainly if a scientist does this type of thing there will be a need in the scientific community to keep the scientist away from experimentation, kind of like what I am doing. Though there is always the need for the Alexander Shulgin's.  :lol:  Scientist and experimenter.   :-D

Peace.

In researching a bit on what a breakthrough DMT trip is like I guess there is not set definition, kind of like I suspected. But for me anything that doesn't give you spiritual growth from either higher states of being or other intelligences wouldn't be a breakthrough. Unless one just want to use it for intelligent fun use and experimentation with a low dose of DMT, but I wouldn't call that a breakthrough.

Edit: One user reported this which is what I would go with as the most likely definition.

"There is no clear definition of the word. Experiences can vary in so many ways.

It usually means that the effects of the psychedelic you´ve taken override your normal sensory perception, wich can lead to OBE´s, experiences of other worlds that feel very real, etc.

You´re flooded with psychedelic input until you will no longer stay afloat in normal reality, but 'go under' (often it also feels that way, especially at the beginning).

Vaporised DMT also acts quickly and because of this has an extra 'stunning' dimension to it.

But oral psychedelic´s like shrooms, mescaline, ayahuasca and ibogaine can also be this intense and overpowering, though less rapid."

Peace.

I'd caution against taking people's reports at face value. I've read quite a few in various places. Not impressed by the some of the short novels certain people write which appear to be either grossly embellished or just completely invented. Looks like are trying to either get attention, impress people or establish themselves as some sort of expert. At the same time, some of the same people are constantly trying to "interpret" the experiences of the "less experienced" people where they try to come off as a teacher/guru. Their comments often look like the "teacher" trying to grade the "student's" work of with subtle slights and minimizing the value in order to make themselves look like an authority. Fortunately, I can see straight through their BS.

IMO, the real value of any experience, yours or someone else's lies in whether it produces any spiritual growth. It sounds like we agree on that which is the most important thing anyway.

When I say taking them at face value that is generally speaking of course given the assumption that most of the people posting are not going to be on BS. And by getting the general feel of what these psychedelics are capable of I can gain insight. Though IDK there that many make up trips as you are saying, to sound like an expert. Perhaps I am wrong. Maybe you can enlighten me. I would have to call many other testimonies from experimentation into question if I do that though perhaps.

In the end let me just clarify that you are not saying that I should give up on trusting psychedelic trips reports that I read in general to get a good idea about what these things are capable of right?

I'm not saying you should give up reading and evaluating the reports you read. I don't think trust is necessary if you are looking for the underlying value. The question is not whether psychedelics can take you straight into the Astral, no one is disputing that for sure. The question is, are they the best way to get there, and do the benefits outweigh the risks? Tripping and being enlightened are different things. I think you can have high value experiences without them, but I won't judge their use and/or say it's wrong or even unnecessary to use them. I apologize if I've done that.

Also when I talk about BS appearing reports, I am also referring to Astral Projection reports since they are also "trips" into the Non-Physical. But if you just look at them for their real value, it's not important if they "really" happened. It would be kind of silly to debate that anyway.

Let me just point out right now that I will be talking about some very interesting and rare information here that should be very intriguing for all serious spiritual seekers. In fact I should almost make this into it's own post.


I am sorry I don't mean to pick apart everything your saying, I just like getting down to the truth as I have learned it from others. I know this is anecdotal evidence I am pointing out here to a degree, and it's an area that is really unstudied. But to answer to the statement you said, I think the answer is yes and no. Since I have run across two people that have reached the height of reality where I mentioned before, it's a place of pure nothingness, pure silence, pure bliss, pure consciousness, there no form is there, there is nothing to behold there. It’s the height of perfection. As I already mentioned it this place of utter surrender to reality into the void of pure bliss. In Buddhism it’s called Shunyata or nirvana, in Taoism it's called wu chi or Wuji, in Hinduism it's called the unmanifest or Brahman. I like to just call it the heart of reality that is beyond description. So I have found 3 people that have reached this place of 100 percent perfection with psychedelics. One of them only told me about it in a PM. He’s did it with a high dose of a powerful strain of psilocybin mushrooms. He has done it a couple of times. Now before you like your kidding me right, trust me it's not what you think.

OK so the first is right on the internet. Right here. http://www.dmtsite.com/5-meo-dmt/experience/descriptions.html

It’s from a book Tryptamine Palace: 5-MeO-DMT and the Sonoran Desert Toad by James Oroc

In it he talks about reaching this place of absolute nothingness yet pure bliss and consciousness. Now if you actually look at the experiential experience of both states from the meditational religions, and that of the psychedelic at it’s peak, you will see that they are indistinguishable.

So if you go to the page linked right above and then type nothingness into the search bar you will see exactly where this is at. He describes it is in beauty. Now remember we are not looking for all the effects before reaching the void, but in the void of nothingness. They are two different states. We are comparing the experiential experience of nothingness here with the psychedelic, versus what the experiential experience of nothingness in meditational religions.

“Colors entered my perception in impossible layers as the rate of dissintegration increased in exponential leaps. Any concept of 'time' or relative 'space' fractured into a quadrillion holographic pixels and was carried off along with the rest of manifest existence, in impossibly fast motion by another quadrillion overly-anxious, nano-sized, carnivorous ants. 'I' seemed to travel some immense distance in an instant, or more like a non-instant. My perception at once exploded and imploded infinitely. Matrix/lattice-like color patterns gave birth in non-time to explosions of sparks which were galactic in the inward scope and scale. Simultaneously, these explosions recured, compounded, echoed, moving my consciousness inward and outward in unimaginable magnitude, 'eventually' into the yawning maw of Nothingness. All ability to fathom halted. All sense of 'I' became totally transparant, instantly g-o-n-e. No Self/Ego. Breathing, heartbeat, Earth life, past experience... never existed. Absorbed into the infinite, timeless, all permeating, Singularity; the sheer titanic bliss of the Void. This lasted forever. It was a Death, ummm... what can I possibly call 'It'?. It was a state? The anihilation of experience, actually. Infinite, unmanifest potential. Words do not really work, here...”

“Within the space of a few heartbeats, I had completely expanded into God.  Eyes open in absolute awe and wonder, the room dissolved, my ego dissolved, my entire world dissolved.  Everything I had ever known or thought or felt dissolved away into absolute pure nothingness.  There was nothing to see, nothing to experience, nothing to perceive.  Absolutely pure nothingness.  And this nothingness was pure consciousness.  And it was love.  Infinite love and infinite perfection.  Everything was in a state of divine perfection.  Nothing was out of place.  Nothing was either good or bad.  Nothing was right or wrong.  Everything was simply perfect in this pure consciousness, this pure state of being.  And this state was not a thing.  It was not an object of perception.  It was not a concept.  It was not an emotion.  It was not anything that I could describe in any way.  In fact, when asked later, I vaguely described it as “living starlight,” but even that was not accurate, for in truth, it was nothing.

 But that no-thing was everything.
 It was God.
 And it was my deepest nature.
 I was one with God.

Not my ego self.  That was pretty thoroughly obliterated through the impossibly fast 5-MeO-DMT expansion.  It was not as though I identified my personal sense of self with God.  Rather, it was that the deepest core of my being, not my ego-identity, was identical with God.  As a finite being in a body with a sense of self and identity, I was an expression of God.  At my core, at the very deepest level, my nature as an incarnated being was one with that pure consciousness, that infinite love, that infinite source of creative energy in which all things exist in absolute and unquestionable perfection.  In those few heartbeats, this beautiful and sacred medicine had opened me up to the All.  I had accepted my own divinity.

“Thank you, God!” I called out as my hands reached up towards that infinite expanse of nothingness, a few moments after the hit of psychedelic medicine flowed out of my lungs.  Eyes wide open, gaping in sheer awe at the mysterium tremendum, I embraced God, and the embrace was returned.”

Now let’s get a few words that describe what this state is like in meditational religions. I talked with a friend of mine and she confirmed with me that these people are reaching what Hinduism calls Nirvikalpa Samadhi. It is the highest possible meditational state in Hinduism.

Let’s see what wikipeda says about it.
Nirvikalpa or sanjeevan - This is the highest transcendent state of consciousness. In this state there is no longer mind, duality, a subject-object relationship or experience. Upon entering nirvikalpa samādhi, the differences we saw before have faded and we can see everything as one. In this condition nothing but pure awareness remains and nothing detracts from wholeness and perfection.

The key here in understanding the similarities is that there is nothing there. In the manifest world there is always a thing in from, for us to behold. But in this state there is nothing to behold. Since you and the object dissolve into oneness. You become one with everything in a way. THere are many that call this state a place of nothingness. This is key in understanding the similarities. This is the real dying to the world. Not the dying to the world that the christians understand.

OK so let’s look at the definition from wikipedia on Sunyata from Buddhism.
Śūnyatā, (Sanskrit, also shunyata; Pali: suññatā), in Buddhism, translated into English as emptiness, voidness, openness, spaciousness, vacuity, is a Buddhist concept which has multiple meanings depending on its doctrinal context. In Theravada Buddhism, suññatā often refers to the not-self (Pāli: anatta, Sanskrit: anātman) nature of the five aggregates of experience and the six sense spheres. Suññatā is also often used to refer to a meditative state or experience.

And lastly in taoism there is Wu Chi or Wuji for explaining this state of nothingness.

Wuji 無極 (literally "without ridgepole") originally meant "ultimateless; boundless; infinite" in Warring States period (476-221 BCE) Daoistclassics, but came to mean the "primordial universe" prior to the Taiji太極 "Supreme Ultimate" in Song Dynasty (960-1279 CE) Neo-Confucianist cosmology. Wuji is also a proper noun in Modern Standard Chinese usage, for instance, Wuji County in Hebei.
The word Wuji
Chinese wuji "limitless; infinite" is a compound of wu "without; no; not have; there is not; nothing, nothingness" and ji "ridgepole; roof ridge; highest/utmost point; extreme; earth's pole; reach the end; attain; exhaust". In analogy with the figurative meanings of English pole, Chinese ji  "ridgepole" can mean "geographical pole; direction" (e.g., siji  "four corners of the earth; world's end"), "magnetic pole" (Beiji  "North Pole" or yinji  "negative pole; anode"), or "celestial pole" (baji  "farthest points of the universe; remotest place").

Now again this seems to be the same thing. They even use the word nothingness as I said. And again any differences between the definitions here would be trivial IMO. IMO we can go to the pinnacle of all the world’s meditational religions, and we will see the same thing.

So as we can see, not only is there these similarities within these meditational traditions in talking about the source of being and reality, but also with psychedelics. You may wonder how I found this out. As I don’t think there has been any book that has covered this broad of a relationship here between not only meditational religions, but also with psychedelics. Well I have a lot of time on my hands. And I have done a lot of soul searching. This is information very few people on earth know right now. Who would have thought that you could become the Buddha for a couple of minutes if you could break that barrier with the psychedelic in order to reach the source himself. And remember here the guy that took the psychedelic, and merged into his source.

Now I also have some PM’s with another psychedelic user that talks about the same type of experience. Using words like “absolute nothingness”, “so still”, “zero thought” “infinite silence” and “absolute volume” These words totally describe the state I am talking about above. And again any differences would be trivial IMO. Particularly since there is nothing there. LOL Not even the self is there. Meaning you are not self aware in such a states. Now this guy did it from taking a strong dose of psilocybin mushrooms, and not 5-MEO-DMT like the other guy I posted above. So there is probably other psychedelics that can do this too. Also note that 5-MEO-DMT is 10 times stronger than DMT. So I think I will leave it at this, and if anyone wants me to post an edited version of our conversation I will. Excluding his name of course.

So to answer to your statement "Tripping and being enlightened are different things." I think the answer is a bit more complicated than that. So it's a yes and a no to the statement. Obviously if one takes a psychedelic and reaches nirvana they still have to deal with the an untamed mind when they come back. Now this also posses a very advanced question for future generations to answer. What if in the future, at the end of your life when you are ready to die you take a psychedelic cocktail to reach this place of perfection, but you have it timed to where once this takes full effect, then have doctor would assist you with an intravenous injection of something to end your physical life on earth. Will you be liberated into the unmanifest with perfect bliss? Very interesting question. You would have no multidimensional bodies to go back to. You would have shed every single layer of your multidimensional body. Becoming unborn as it were spiritually.

Now you can't buy 5-MEO-DMT, but you can buy frogs that have 5-MEO-DMT in it's venom. I guess the main part of the venom is 5-MEO-DMT LOL The frogs are not illegal. But I think smoking the 5-MEO-DMT venom is.

Lastly I want to point out that nobody has a monopoly on reality and truth. Not the christians, not the Muslims, not the Meditational religions, not astral projectors, not wiccans, not shamans, or dare I say scientists. [Edit: note I say scientists not science, were still fine tuning now science is done.] And I have strong reason to say that even about scientists. If you want, I can get into something really big on that one. But I will leave it at that for now.


OK well that helps me understand you position a little better. Thanks for that. And I hope you don’t take me picking apart everything your saying the wrong way.


I think when I said taking them at face value I meant that I generally don't go in with biases on what the experience should be like. I don't think I meant that I document it and don't know how to apply it to anything. Perhaps face value was not the right word.

Peace.

PlasmaAstralProjection,
Have you looked up the term "metaphor" before?  :)
That's all your describing.  Metaphors... the different ways and words people use to describe the same thing.  Understanding another persons metaphors allows you to attempt to understand what they're saying.

What you're describing in your above post is what I (and others here) call "the void"... Tom Campbell calls "point consciousness"... others yet here call it the "3D Blackness"... and there are many other terms that go beyond that.  All different metaphors to describe the same thing.  That "absolute nothingness yet pure bliss and consciousness".

You are correct that nobody has a monopoly on the truth.  Even further to the point, there are 7 billion people on Earth... there are also 7 billion truths.
There is no monopoly on the truth, because truth is unique to each individual.

LOL are you saying that the Buddha metaphorically meditated for years, only to reach a metaphorical Sunyata. LOL Perhaps I am misinterpreting what you are saying. Besides the Buddha from many years ago, we have people in this day and age that have reached enlightenment, or Sunyata, or substrate consciousness. They are rare but their are a few.

No I am interpreting an experiential experience, not a metaphor. The only way that source of consciousness is a metaphor would be in a way that it's just too abstract to put into sufficient words. Not that it doesn't literally exits.

Perhaps point of consciousness is in the unmanifest. But let me be clear. It's easy to confuse the higher Samadhi's with the unmanifest itself when talking in basic language, such as 3D blackness and point consciousness. If you can think in any of these places then it's not the source consciousness. It's impossible to think in such a state I am talking about. So let me ask, can people think in such places to any degree of a degree? An even better question is are people self aware in any of these states? Since it's not possible to be self-aware when at your source.

Let's just clarify right now that there is such a thing as ignorance for what you call peoples truths here? Certainly ignorance and it's effects are real in the world. So just because someone believes something to be true, doesn't always make it true. So in the end it's a bit out of context to say a persons truth can also be their ignorance. Truth and ignorance are two different things. Perhaps a better word for what your talking about is beliefs instead of truth. Since beliefs denotes both a persons truths/light and ignorance/darkness.

Peace.

I read through the trip report you posted and I think it is the truth, mainly because this is also the conclusion that I have come to on my own although haven't experienced at that level. On it's own, it definitely has value and IMO it is an accurate description. It confirms for me something I have concluded from my own search for the truth: The default state is nothing and that all things that are said to exist are manifestations of consciousness.

In order to be able to experience this in the absolute, you must be able to completely lose yourself, who you are, your connection with everything you know and have known. You must be prepared for this, not just a mental preparation if you know what I mean. I'm not there yet for sure. In my Astral Projections, I have experienced this only partially, going as far as I can handle, slowly moving toward the absolute as I am able. It's a slow process, step by step and I have bailed out several times. I have no doubt you can get there, the main thing for me is being ready.


It's very possible that your body releases large quantities of DMT when you die, in that case we will all have a big trip at the end.  :-) I do think we will be able to experience this absolute unmanifest void in the afterlife for sure, maybe even here too. If and when I'm ready for it here in this life, it will happen. We know this state exists and I, like you definitely want to experience it. We have no disagreement at all on that. But I think what we're really discussing is which path you take to get there. There is more than one way to get there for sure. For me, I prefer to take the slow and steady path because that way I can be prepared for the experience. There is also a lot of value in the partial experiences.

But it's also very possible that my AP trips are really DMT trips anyway since we may be producing it internally.  :-)

Wow. That was beautiful. Definitely caught a tear from reading this. That is the kind of Oneness with God I've always deeply desired since I was a young Christian. Thanks for the post :-)

Glad to see you got something out of that.

Yeah that is why I have thought about secluding myself for many hours of meditation everyday. Haven't been able to consistently do it. Though I have a pretty good idea of how to meditate, and have some good experience behind my belt. As they say meditation is the learning how to focus on everything and nothing at the same time. LOL

Yeah, though our bodies would produce other molecules in a more balanced way to make it more manageable, so that it doesn't filter out as much as a psychedelic trip.

I wouldn't be so sure about automatically becoming enlightened at the end of life. This is something meditators take a lifetime to perfect with at least 40,000 to 80,000 hours of meditation in a lifetime. Though they do say that the time, and type of death you get is very very important for making it to the upper realms. And I wouldn't could on this system to give you the comfort you need at the end of life. If you leave it up to the system your bound to be left in a nursing home for years, if your lucky you might die quickly from a heart attack. Our care of dying seniors is still very much archaic and barbaric. The Catholic Hospitals will keep you alive, and force-feed you until your last dying breath, even if you have an advanced directive saying that you don't want to be force-feed if you deny food. Get informed while you can, before you become a victim of the system. We put many of our seniors through hell at the end of life.

I doubt we make enough DMT to trip during an AP, but it seems very plausible that small amount of endogenous DMT is vital to making good AP trips, but right along with other tryptamines like 5-MEO-DMT, and serotonin and all the other things that keep us out of our body, and able to go deeper.

As far as the best path to God, our source. Well ultimately speaking I would hope that we could use a little bit of everything, to get a synergistic effect. Meaning the total effect of each, would be amplified, if we just combined all of them. Though not necessarily to combine them all at once, as this is not possible many times.

Glad you got something out of it Aaron. I was definitely in awe, and humbled when I first found this out.

Peace

Too much double-talk.

Absolute nothingness

Oneness with everything

Infinite in a single instance

disintegration  manifestation

nothing was everything

etc,etc,etc,

This is called dazzling with BS. I understand that it is extremely hard explaining such experiences in any language but all these phrases...wait, I do understand "absolute nothingness" now that I consider it in this context.

Actually the word manifestation definitely doesn't describe this state. Yet it's so close to it in a certain way. Since you must in a way become one with all manifestation in order to eventually just dissolve, and be born into God/your source/the unmanifest as it were. Or unborn into God, depending on how you want to see it. The unmanifest which is just the ground substrate where all manifestations came from.

I'm glad you found a way to see it in the way that is best for you AstralZombie, unless you were just being sarcastic. In which case I wouldn't be too surprised to have some opposition here.

Peace.

It's not that far out to think that it would be hard to explain. Even basic meditation can be hard to gasp, the idea is learn how to focus on everything and nothing at once, though it takes a lot of training to do this. Now that may sound like a contradiction. All it basically means is you train the mind to be aware of everything, yet being unattached, unbiased which only slowly leads to the ability to focus on nothing, all at the same time. So what is that like, it's consciousness, stillness, being, silence, and stillness. And if something arises you don't suppress it but become aware of it. Yet remain as unattached as you can. That is all. It can take a lifetime of meditation to get good at this. Advanced meditators can feel inside of their body, and their organs from what I've read. This is because the light of consciousness spreads throughout not only the mind, but their body, and even beyond.

Peace

PlasmaAstralProjection,
You've obviously read a lot about all of which you're posting about.
There are, however, certain aspects which you don't seem to understand yet... which, given time and experience, I have no doubt you'll figure things out.

Most notably is the concept of "metaphor", as I mentioned above.
Another concept is the one where we say that everyone has a unique perspective of reality.

You've seemingly got all the separate ideas floating around in this thread, I've read them... you've even stated the string that binds them all together, you just haven't made the connection yourself between all of these ideas.  I try not to give people answers... which is why I'm sounding rather cryptic right now.  AZ's post is actually very to the point regarding this.  It's more important for you to figure these things out on your own.  That's was takes it from the intellectual level into your very being and stays with you forever.

What I'd suggest is taking a mental step back from everything you think you know about spirituality and give a look at it from a whole.

Yes I know what you are saying. It's not a metaphor though. I have no idea how much you have read into other religions so at this point I just think that the main thing you believe in right now is astral projection, and that you haven't taken other religions as seriously as I have in understanding them. So you just think it's a metaphor. Try telling the Dali Lama that shunyata is a metaphor. Though the Dali Lama admits he isn't enlightened. That doesn't mean it's a metaphor. And if I did what your doing by speaking all that cryptically here none of us would get anywhere on this subject.

Besides the meditational religions. I just gave a crystal clear example of someone that reached a literal unmanifest. What do you think, the guy was taking a metaphorical psychedelic too? LOL Actually I pointed out 2-3 people that took a psychedelic to reach the unmanifest.

Yeah as long as I believe that I am enlightened, then I will be eternally freed from all karmic effects, and I will never have to reincarnate again. This would be funny if it wasn't so far from the truth. I know the connection here with the "your own truth" you were talking about.  

Ummm I'm just letting you know that you directly contradicted yourself here. Let me guess the connection is actually metaphorical?

It's a pride thing, I know. This happens not only with people that think they have high spiritual knowledge, that is above us knowing sometimes, or that we don't deserve it, or that we have to work for it, it also common in advanced meditators. Your not the only one. Pride is a read phenomena that is common in the spiritual path, but you must shed it to go higher into the spiritual. I also see this phenomena with psychedelic users. Especially the ones that are figuring out new things, and they have to use a lot of their time to figure things out. Now there is some truth to the use of doing this type of thing. But that is only in extreme cases, only where what you say can be used against you to hurt you. And I am not talking about losing a debate here. I am more like talking about not giving nuclear weapons technology to people that might use it against you. Pride is not for people that truly do what to know the truth, and who will not use it against those that give it to them.

In the end  to know if you should speak cryptically you should ask yourself is this actually helping the person or am I hindering that person. I don’t mind a little cryptic language here and there. But you have to be very careful here.

Lastly what if the scientific community did what you are doing, by talking cryptically. It would take forever for us to get anywhere.

:? I guess I need to buy some 5-MEO-DMT, can I pick you up some? [Edit BTW that was a joke. And i do get the part about figuring things out on my own. That is all I have been doing really. Meaning I have no physical teacher with me. Most of it has been me seeking it, both on the Internet and in practice.]

Your talking in Russian. I’ve had years to think about these things. All I can really do is..... well I have already done everything needed to prove this state literally exists. Do you want to find actual meditators that have reached a literal substrate consciousness, and they can tell you about it in plain English. I can probably do that too. I can think of a few off the bat I think.

If all your trying to do is humble me into understanding what it experientially means to go inward to the source then I think this is a terrible way to do that.

Peace.

Oh my...
Just, oh my... O_o

Well that can happen if you talk cryptically. Don't expect to put this all back on me just posting something so simple as that.

I want Szaxx to weigh in on this. And see what he says.

Peace.

It looks to me like you are the one speaking in some other language, the language of other people's theoretical accomplishments. You talk about all of these theoretical concepts which is fine, but what about YOUR experiences? That's what we are doing here in a topic called "Out of Body Experiences". Everyone here is trying to reach a higher state, we are all working on it in our own way, and there is no one path to enlightenment. Instead of talking about what other people are supposedly achieving I think you should talk about where YOU are at, what experiences YOU are having etc. I'm interested to hear them, always open to someone else's experiences shedding light on something new.

Oh, you're not talking cryptically.  I understand you perfectly.
I just don't have the time and inclination to respond to all of that.
Especially when I feel that what I write won't matter anyway.  :)

I'll just leave it at that and allow one of the other moderators to step in... Szaxx?  Care to take it?  :)

I'll need some time to read a lot of this topic. It's seemingly taking the typical religious debate route. Lol
A quick perusal shows that individualism is showing itself and a dash of fixed mind is being accepted as a postulate of total accuracy.
Keep your minds open to accept new things. The whole CAN be experienced and communicated with ease if opinions are accepted as inputted from individual PERSPECTIVES.
A thought exercise, can you say true or false to this.
Travel 1000 miles east then 1000 miles north and follow this with five mins rest then go 1000 miles south.
Question, is it now possible to end up where you started from?

True.

Peace.

And... after travelling all that way, will you be the same person?  ;)

I'll answer your question, if you answer Szaxx's question?

Peace.

Now that I have finally done what you said Xanth and took a step back I realize what went on. A lot of you (not all) either knowingly or unknowingly totally detract from my post. And whether I was staying on topic or not is irrevent. And this is for two reasons. One the original poster here Aaron liked my post, (this is his thread you know). Two, I am probably the only one that has kept this thread going for so long, and if I stopped this thread would be dying or at least wouldn’t be very active.

Also it seems that most of you were not really interested at all if peak psychedelic experiences had anything in common with the pinnacle of the worlds meditative traditions. And to post whether or not I had accomplished anything was just another distraction from what I was trying to point out. One thing at a time guys, I will answer that, but this is not the time or context for it. Lets see if we can first learn something here from this, since it must rise or fall on it's own merits, and not mine or yours specifically. A reporter doesn't have to part take of doing an act they are reporting about for them to have respect. Only if what they present is true should they be given some respect, not if they part took with the report. So then if you are curious I will tell you what I have accomplished. But not now.

And deepspace it seems like you fell for what everyone else was doing. Your first post had nothing but good to say. While or second post took a huge turn for skepticism, and over what I have accomplished, to changing the topic, to talking about “other peoples theoretical accomplishments” that is a stark contrast to what your original post talking about “We know this state exists and I, like you definitely want to experience it.“ Why the change in tone all of the sudden deepspace as soon as you heard what others had to say?

Peace.

It wasn't a question to be answered... it was an answer to Szaxx's question. 

A solid few hours of perspective gaining thought... nice.  LoL
You've got a lifetime to reflect upon it. 

What is that Russian your speaking, with a Ukrainian accent? I'm just letting you know this is not helping me, it's likely to make me think your even more out of touch than I originally thought. The people on the psychedelic forums will know what I am talking about more than you guys............... I would have expected more from this place.

Plasma it seems as though you think you are the only one with the right to be condescending. You then went on to list your reasons as to why you had a right to hijack this thread and complained that others then went on to do the same.

I can't speak for deepspace and neither can he since this thread is now locked but you constantly belittled his opinions on achieving heightened states through meditation and AP yet he continued to engage in cordial dialogue with you. That shows great character as well as a great wit when he pointed out that it was you speaking other languages albeit English but it was the language of other drug experiencers. :lol:

You should have just thanked him for being cordial and reading your mega posts.

Please have no hard feelings and feel free to continue your thoughts on the Permanent Astral topic: Drugs.

So far...
 Reply 27, superlative mindset. You remain open to all sides of debate. This allows deep discussions without the 'indoctrination runaway' starting a war.
Reply 29, good info here with understanding the indoctrination runaway
Reply 30, use of 'debate' is misinterpreted. Third world are no risk, look at the British empire a century ago to re-evaluate this. A universalist is open to everything and corruption is rife in this mindset. IMHO, indicates doubt based upon limited knowledge. (respect earned).
Reply 31, debate issue noticed, more respectful comments made.
Reply 32, ouch, niece at 15 with satanists, police involved. Another religious excuse for wackos. My sympathies soarin.
Reply 51, Any belief system will limit the truth.
Reply 52, comment made ' Yet your experiences and opinion is adds some value here, thanks for sharing.'
If everyone had this fixed in their mind would wars even start?
Reply 54, If there's a commonality it's worth investigating. DMT forces an experience, didn't Hitler use force?
Reply 55, note overpowering...
Reply 59, wirhin the quoted text of the experience, if this is the ultimate connection with God using chemicals, I'm sorry to say that it's nowhere near my personal maximum. This wonderful experience is a glimpse through the window into God. It's a far cry from the all with one true state. The information overload in a much higher state shows we as humans are like ants in the launchpad of a stellar craft. An ant may see the stars, it has no comprehension of the craft before it. Not a chance of understanding it's implications, use or design. The multi colour state is quite easy to reach. It's so difficult to leave, if you are emotionally challenged it could wreak havoc with your constitution. I have achieved this concious  state recently.
April 8
 http://www.unlimitedboundaries.ca/forums/reference-material-t92-60.html
This took a half hour to achieve from making a decision whilst brushing my teeth.
I go here to feel good when the physical is grating me emotionally.
Never used any chemicals, they may serve a purpose for those with no experience. It's like a ride in a taxi, state your destination and go. It has a cost and your not the one in the driving seat.
YOU DONT HAVE CONTROL that is paramount to any experience. Be a leader, don't be led, look at religious indoctrination, see my point?
Reply 60, individualism in a nutshell, the commonality IS the important thing to seek.
Reply 61, misinterpreted I think to start with. You said ' An even better question is are people self aware in any of these states? Since it's not possible to be self-aware when at your source.' How do you personally know this, you may need to define 'your source' as the individual comes from the whole so cannot be yours period.
Reply 62, only bail if it's too much. The source itself from experience cannot be understood. The closer you get  the faster it operates until its imprinting a continuous stream of data that the human mind is no where near ready to interpret. Interpretation itself being a necessity for understanding chops up the data and you lose it's meanings instantly. We are NOT ready by eons for this mental activity. Ants again...