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1  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Does everyone have a spirit guide? on: June 22, 2014, 22:37:23
My experience has been that guides are there when you need them which for me is quite different than when I think I need them. Every time I have contact with one, it feels so good and often for the next day too. So I could see myself easily getting addicted to that and wanting it all of the time. But we are meant to learn here on our own, it's really an individual journey. That's not to say we don't need help and shouldn't help each other, but there is a line between help and interference which be can be counterproductive to our own growth. So when it comes to my guides, they usually are just loving and supportive which is often all I need because it's important for us to learn the lessons ourselves and they can't help us with that.
2  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / Re: Souly for Retrievals! on: May 26, 2014, 10:13:50
I wish someday I am able to help some people move on too, but I may have to fight some fears first and not to mention enhancing my abilities.
I would definitely be willing, but I know I don't have the ability. I mean, I'm in no position to help anyone, but I have a desire to help people.

The first step is dealing with your own blocks, whether they are fears or other things. You first have to be able to get to that place where you can help, that's the biggest hurdle. The higher you can raise your energy level/frequency the more you can do. Many times when I am helped in the AP, the helpers just touch me and that does it. 

I have only met someone one time who I feel needed help, but he couldn't reach out. He seemed very frightened and was in a hurry to leave after I started talking to him. He was a religious man who had an accent from the southern U.S. It seemed like I had gone back in time and I explained about how we have the internet where I am from and that I would look him up when I got back. I got his name which was a very unusual name. I could only find one reference to anyone with his name when I looked him up. It was a guy who had died about 3 years ago. He was from the southern U.S. Hoping I run into him again and can offer help if he is willing. 
3  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / Re: Souly for Retrievals! on: May 26, 2014, 06:04:49
Wow retrievals are so amazing! It really all seems pretty deep, how you could help someone in that way. Must be very difficult at times, figuring out what to do, I know when your trying to help someone in the physical sometimes it seems impossible to do anything for them. Having the desire to help them, but at the same time getting dragged down with them. I can't imagine how it is in the non-physical.

I was wondering, can people ask to have soul retrievals done on themselves? Or would a person who knows about soul retrievals and know enough to to ask to have one done even need one in the first place?

The basic issue is that when anyone asks for help, it is provided. Sometimes I get help when I don;t even know I need it. There is really a variety of needs that anyone can have and also a variety of abilities that a helper could use. It's a job that is done by volunteers and so if you available, willing and have the abilities, you can do the work. That's all it takes.
4  Astral Chat / Welcome to Members Introductions! / Re: Hello! on: May 17, 2014, 09:42:01
Welcome to the group!

I can assure you that you can AP without guides or any kind of guru's teaching using fairly basic techniques. The important thing to remember is that AP is natural, but learning to be consciously aware and completely awake during it does require dedication and a strong, focused intent.

Good luck and  keep us posted on your progress.
5  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: Great succes with asking to be pulled out (by guides) on: May 16, 2014, 21:51:36
Beliefs can generate Intent.
The belief that we're "inside a body" for example, creates the Intent of going "out of body" when projecting.  It's what creates those "separation sensations".
I believe in guides, just probably not in the same way you or others do.
I don't view them as entities that are just hanging out in the non-physical waiting to help me when I ask.
Look into what Tom Campbell says about guides.  That's my opinion too.

Although, in this particular scenario, it's just an Intent-generator to assist you in getting out.  It's a guide, for all intents and purposes... just nothing active that you'd recognize as such.

I'd be interested to know what Tom Campbell says about guides since I haven't heard it. My experience with them has been only that they provide love and support when I need it most and don't actively assist me. Of course it's possible that they are providing a lot more, but I am just not aware of it. It makes sense though that our physical world life is an individual learning experience and we are here to learn to have the abilities ourselves. No one can do that for us, but sometimes we get discouraged and worn out in the process and just need some uplifting. That's what I see as the main role of guides. At some point assistance becomes interference. A good teacher is one that helps the student to figure out the answers for themselves.
6  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: Great succes with asking to be pulled out (by guides) on: May 16, 2014, 04:02:10
I've done this many times during meditation to great effect.
Now, I don't believe for a second that there is some entity/guide actually there "helping" me... but it places a strong Intent to that aim, which assists with the action.

So apparently it's not the beliefs that make it happen, it's the intent. My experience has been that beliefs can help to create intent, but the beliefs themselves don't make it manifest.
7  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / Finding and using portals for AP on: May 16, 2014, 01:09:35
Lately I have been working on finding and using what are called portals. I would define these as transition devices we can use to help us go from the physical to the non-physical. They are vehicles in a sense that help us transitions between the states and they are represented by objects we know in the physical world such as doors, mirrors, stairs, etc. When I see these, I recognize them as such and try to use them, but recently have been creating the intent to find the portals and use them. I'm doing this with just a general intention, but not trying to create a specific one. Some of the ones I've seen have really surprised me and I normally wouldn't come up with them.

This morning I had success when out of nowhere a large book appeared and the pages began turning. As pages flipped I could see that each one was a specific scene. I found the way in which was kind of like riding in on a wave or something, just using intent. The 2-D image on the page became a 3-D real world where I had joined a procession of people walking up to this building. The visuals were a little weird at first. They were sharp and colorful, but there were all of these small dark objects floating in the air. In a few seconds they went away and it all straightened out. I started floating around a little then joined the group again staring at the detail in each one of the people's faces which I just had to touch to feel how real their skin felt. One guy had a bristly stubble beard which felt exactly as it should. It was funny because they seem so perfectly real so I asked each one before I did it and they all gave me permission. Then I thought, "This is stupid, why I am asking these people?" and just went ahead and touched the last one's face without asking. Wow, did I get yelled at! Then one of the others pulled me aside and said "He always feels like a victim".

We went up to this building and went inside it looked like a monastery with all of these corridors and rooms with big old fashioned wood doors and iron hardware. Everything was painted white. I started exploring, the first room had really basic wooden shelves and benches but was otherwise empty. Before I could get further it was over.

If you have used similar portals, I'd be interested in hearing how they were found and used.
8  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / Re: walking into the NP environment on: May 09, 2014, 08:52:23
I've had a few portal transition experiences, the most recent is when I saw a door and recognized it as a portal. I created an intention to pass through it with something like "this is a portal, let me pass through it". I "opened" the door and on the other side was a ramp which went down into city. Once I passed through the door, it was the same kind of transitional point to a completely sensory world with all of the features of the physical world which are pretty much standard. Always have to to make sure that I can't tell the difference just to satisfy my curiosity. 

My thought is that portals are transition devices, used to pass from one state to another. They are symbolic as a concept and help to focus intent. They can be doors, stairways, elevators, vehicles, mirrors. A tool that provides a focus.
9  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / Re: walking into the NP environment on: May 09, 2014, 07:21:57
In my last conscious projection, when the scene opened up, I was watching it in movie form.  It occurred to me that I should join the scene, but I didn't because I was just enjoying it the way it was.  The movie was this big, continuous scrolling screen moving from right to left.  I saw a plane crash, many beautiful vistas from all over the world--deserts, planes, water scenes, lots of strange symbols... it went on for about 10 min. this way, and then I suddenly heard and felt rhythmic footsteps.  I realized that I was the one walking but I wasn't really anywhere.  I wasn't in the scene--it was only a movie.  I was confused at first and wondered if I could be walking around in the physical.  No, that couldn't be it.  I just didn't know where my 'walking self' was.  I finally realized I was being prodded (I guess by invisible guides) to join the scene.  So as soon as I intended my 'walking self' to walk into the scene, I joined it.  I guess I was being schooled.  I've only had one of these movie type projections once before so maybe my guides weren't so sure I was going to be able to enter the scene by myself so they helped me out in a creative way!

What you just described is for me the absolute best way to go into the NP. It has only happened about 3 times so far, but had pretty much the same experience. It starts as a 2D image as if it on a movie screen. Then I create an intention to pass through to the other side so to say. I pass through what seems like a transition point of some kind where it goes from a 2D screen-like image into a 3D full-sensory world with sharply defined visuals and solid, touchable surfaces. It's really the ultimate experience to step through that invisible curtain or whatever it is.  This is also similar to the portal experiences I've had where I find the portal. Right now I am working on a meditation which I call "finding the portal", looking "inside" for it. Just started it and working on the technique to make this happen more often. Hopefully will have results soon.
10  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Can someone tell me how to astral project and what dangers I could encounter? on: May 08, 2014, 22:14:44
I also experience the fear associated with separation form the physical, I think that is completely normal. OBE is a completely new sensation, and can be very dissociative. You can do some mental preparation ahead of time, that helps me. There's nothing to be afraid of really, but it's something that you have to just work on and keep trying. Remember, you can always come back if you can't handle it. I still have to do this sometimes, and don't beat yourself up about it when it happens.

As far as fears go, it's best to work those out before you go into AP. You will find them there if you don't.
11  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Can someone tell me how to astral project and what dangers I could encounter? on: May 08, 2014, 08:19:42
Would you say that this idea of your own fears is in unison with death. I know the Tibetan book of the Dead discusses how your fears will come into reality during death and the trick is to recognize them as your own creation, instead of something external. The fear that we project is simply inside of ourselves, invented by us and used by us. Would you say that this idea also relates to death or is it something exclusively connected with astral projection while we are still alive?

I think that when we pass through our physical existence, we pass into the non-physical plane into a permanent state of AP. We are are preparing for this in our physical life and that's a big part of why I do AP. I think everything that relates to our AP experiences in our physical life here also relates to the next phase. Part of our growth here is to deal with our fears and resolve them while we are here in the physical so we don't take them with us. My thinking is the same fears you manifest during this life could also be manifested in the next phase because they are part of you. Do everything you can to work through them now, if nothing else your quality of life will improve here.
12  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Can someone tell me how to astral project and what dangers I could encounter? on: May 08, 2014, 01:00:29
The main obstacle is your own fears about what you could run into there. The more able you are to let go of the physical reality you know and understand, the more potential you have to experience non-physical reality in it's entirety. This is often easier said then done.

I also think it's important to have realistic goals to start off with so you don't get frustrated. It's a slow learning process for many, including myself so take it slow and one step at a time. Focus on your objectives, but be patient with the process. The experiences you can have are well worth it.
13  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Tom Campbell, Free Will & The Afterlife on: May 05, 2014, 01:26:42
Love your thoughts here deepspace. This casts a much more positive light on the concept IMO. I think ultimately if the idea of "losing free will" as we may put it is troubling to someone, they should just stop thinking about it. Because everyone who has an NDE (and I mean everyone) is so blown away by the reality of the "Afterlife" that they do not want to come back.

I've never had an NDE, but I already know enough to understand why they don't want to come back. On some level, I think we're all aware of what we're missing and there is desire inside each one of us that can not be fulfilled here. It's to the point of physical pain at times. In a way, NDErs have it worse and I think a lot of them suffer from depression.

I think free will and choice is all part of the experience of separation we came here for. To have this experience requires subjecting ourselves to damage and we all kind of get "beat-up" here. This is something else I'm aware of, my vehicle already has high mileage. It makes sense to me that there would have to be some sort of recovery phase we go through after we leave here. I'm pretty sure that I will have to go in for some repairs after this. smiley
 

14  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Tom Campbell, Free Will & The Afterlife on: May 03, 2014, 21:22:44
Great discussion going on here and there's so much to comment on.

In this physical life we connect free will so much with our identity. Our experience here is almost purely "individual", whereas our existence in the next life IMO is much more "collective". It's easy to see the loss of freedom and individuality as the end of our true existence because these things define us here. But I also think we are making a pretty big sacrifice to have this experience of separation and individuality here in the physical. While I have no direct memory of what it was like where we came from, I am well aware of the deprivation that is part of this journey.

Who we are and what we experience here are defined to a large degree by our choices and the choices of others. Free will seems to be very important in this existence for our growth, but my guess is that we will lose at least some of it after we leave here. A lot of other people, many NDErs also think this is correct. Many think that as we reach a higher level of consciousness, we lose more and more of our individual identity and eventually merge completely into the source. Of course we will all have to find out for ourselves.

It's important to point out that free will is really a two-edged sword and there are a lot of negative consequences living here in what I would call a "choice driven reality". I think the afterlife is not individual free-will experience like here, but a level of pure shared existence (not sure I can really describe or comprehend it).

I heard Tom's views on "data" after basically coming to the same conclusion myself. I have already some exposure to this in AP and had quite a few of what I would call "experience downloads" or data dumps where I just basically absorbed every detail of an experience simultaneously. It's often conceptual knowledge or information that's just directly "ingested" for lack of a better word. Then try to sort it all out and translate it, often not even possible. My guess is that we will have full access to this in the next phase.  
15  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: Are there supplements worth doing? on: May 01, 2014, 09:22:11

Galantamine (combined with Choline and/or Lecithin and/or Vitamin Bs) seems to be relatively safe and moreover it is the craze for most lucid dreamers. I had occasional experiences with it too a while ago, but normally go without.

Galantamine is actually a herbal medicine. It is made from some plants, e.g. the spider lily plant.

It has so far not any great health dangers reported. Mostly it's gastrointestinal problems, if at all:

...If you try it, you should only use it every 2-3 days. As Wiki states (link see above):

My experiences with it are varied. I remember it gave me more 'physical' sensations sometimes. E.g. I felt more sleep paralysis which I do not feel at all with 'normal' induction. I also felt/heard 'cracks' in my brain (seriously!) once or twice. But it is said to be no problem. You also get this when you do third-eye energy work in this area (at least that is what Teal Scott tells in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDnBw7EXa3w )

My first attempts also resulted in a roller coaster ride, which means I got lucid but then often switched the scenes and phased from one place/situation to another without too many conscious control of it. Later I had more control.
I had no adverse health effects. However, if you do it wrong you might get sleepless for a while and it takes you longer to fall asleep again. You should NEVER take it before going to bed. Only take it in the middle of the night when you already slept for 3-4 hours. Also it is not good it you then stay up too long or eat sth with it. For me it was best when I got up, took it, and went to sleep again. My success rate was over 90% with this method. It is almost a guarantee for getting lucid or get into the vibrational/paralysis state. But that's just my experience, any other may vary.

I've used it quite a few times too, had some interesting experiences, but nothing even close to my experiences without it. But then I've only done it about 5 times so not fair to compare really.  My experience has been that it consistently almost works. Galantamine and Choline have helped me get to the threshold, but then I still have to enter and that is not any easier. The problem for me has been that this combination only makes it a little easier. But what happens is I always end up putting less effort into it, thinking these things will just "make it happen" Basically, the same amount of effort is required and that's really the bottom line. I can't say that I'm done trying it, but in the final analysis, there are really no shortcuts to the "full-on" AP experience. The best way is the natural way. Once you've experienced that, you're not going to be satisfied with anything else.
16  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: Change Beliefs 101 on: April 28, 2014, 20:07:28
Likewise, I'd simply say this:  stop "believing" and start experiencing.  

Personal experience trumps second hand information every time!

The two above comments are right on and I have been thinking about this exact thing lately. My thought was: "replace beliefs with experience". Beliefs are limiting for sure. Even trying to describe the really deep and profound experiences in the Astral is limiting because we have to translate them into words. Many of the experiences you can have can not really be translated because they are more "conceptual" in nature and you have to almost reduce them to put them into words. Experience is a language of it's own. Part of the problem is when we describe something in words, it has to processed by our brains which are limiting. It's necessary to get beyond all of our filtering and processing and go straight into the real deal.

Getting rid of beliefs is extremely freeing, and it allows you to go to the next level. Once you have experienced something, you no longer have to "believe" in it.

You also want to travel light in the Astral leaving behind the "excess baggage" of your beliefs behind. Otherwise you will just be "looking into a mirror", so to say: Projecting your own beliefs and then reading them back. You want to go in as an objective observer/experiencer.

Right now, I'm working on this whole issue and hope we can explore this more.
17  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Helping each others: How advanced travalers can help beginners on: April 15, 2014, 05:58:17
Beginners seem to be the only people obsessed with this idea of proving whether AP is "real". The concept of "reality" is only one of perspective.
18  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: How will I ever know the difference between a lucid dream and OBE? on: April 12, 2014, 03:40:50

Re: How will I ever know the difference between a lucid dream and OBE?

Answer: None.
19  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / Re: Could We Do An Experiment?? on: April 10, 2014, 15:22:14
I was doing some reading about the historical Jesus and found out that there is not a single eyewitness account of him. Also everything written about him was written after he died, despite the fact that there were historians at that time writing about important events and people. If the Gospel accounts are even close to the truth, surely these historians of the time would have documented something about this man. There were also a number of people crucified during that time that we're documented by the Romans, but no mention of a Jesus. Everything written about Jesus was essentially hearsay, so my question is: did he even exist? Most scholars think he probably did, but no one can say for sure. I would like to see if we can get that question answered first before I start looking for the records of his life.
20  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / Re: I DID IT....almost on: April 10, 2014, 02:46:11
I learned to let go of the physical ways and adapt to this new thought controlled way things work.

Yes, letting go of the physical is definitely a learning experience, speaking for myself. We are so used to having a physical body so when we don't it kind of messes with your head if you know what I mean. There is a comfort zone there that takes a bit to get through. A lot going on with our attachment to the physical, including our body so be patient and keep at it, sounds like you are doing well.
21  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: How do OBE's compare to physical reality? on: April 08, 2014, 21:36:49

Your talking in Russian. Iíve had years to think about these things. All I can really do is..... well I have already done everything needed to prove this state literally exists. Do you want to find actual meditators that have reached a literal substrate consciousness, and they can tell you about it in plain English. I can probably do that too. I can think of a few off the bat I think.

If all your trying to do is humble me into understanding what it experientially means to go inward to the source then I think this is a terrible way to do that.
Peace.

It looks to me like you are the one speaking in some other language, the language of other people's theoretical accomplishments. You talk about all of these theoretical concepts which is fine, but what about YOUR experiences? That's what we are doing here in a topic called "Out of Body Experiences". Everyone here is trying to reach a higher state, we are all working on it in our own way, and there is no one path to enlightenment. Instead of talking about what other people are supposedly achieving I think you should talk about where YOU are at, what experiences YOU are having etc. I'm interested to hear them, always open to someone else's experiences shedding light on something new.
22  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: How do OBE's compare to physical reality? on: April 08, 2014, 15:36:18
Let me just point out right now that I will be talking about some very interesting and rare information here that should be very intriguing for all serious spiritual seekers. In fact I should almost make this into it's own post.

I read through the trip report you posted and I think it is the truth, mainly because this is also the conclusion that I have come to on my own although haven't experienced at that level. On it's own, it definitely has value and IMO it is an accurate description. It confirms for me something I have concluded from my own search for the truth: The default state is nothing and that all things that are said to exist are manifestations of consciousness.

In order to be able to experience this in the absolute, you must be able to completely lose yourself, who you are, your connection with everything you know and have known. You must be prepared for this, not just a mental preparation if you know what I mean. I'm not there yet for sure. In my Astral Projections, I have experienced this only partially, going as far as I can handle, slowly moving toward the absolute as I am able. It's a slow process, step by step and I have bailed out several times. I have no doubt you can get there, the main thing for me is being ready.

So to answer to your statement "Tripping and being enlightened are different things." I think the answer is a bit more complicated than that. So it's a yes and a no to the statement. Obviously if one takes a psychedelic and reaches nirvana they still have to deal with the an untamed mind when they come back. Now this also posses a very advanced question for future generations to answer. What if in the future, at the end of your life when you are ready to die you take a psychedelic cocktail to reach this place of perfection, but you have it timed to where once this takes full effect, then have doctor would assist you with an intravenous injection of something to end your physical life on earth. Will you be liberated into the unmanifest with perfect bliss? Very interesting question. You would have no multidimensional bodies to go back to. You would have shed every single layer of your multidimensional body. Becoming unborn as it were spiritually.

It's very possible that your body releases large quantities of DMT when you die, in that case we will all have a big trip at the end.  smiley I do think we will be able to experience this absolute unmanifest void in the afterlife for sure, maybe even here too. If and when I'm ready for it here in this life, it will happen. We know this state exists and I, like you definitely want to experience it. We have no disagreement at all on that. But I think what we're really discussing is which path you take to get there. There is more than one way to get there for sure. For me, I prefer to take the slow and steady path because that way I can be prepared for the experience. There is also a lot of value in the partial experiences.

But it's also very possible that my AP trips are really DMT trips anyway since we may be producing it internally.  smiley

23  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Malformed double hand on: April 08, 2014, 05:46:27
The deformed hand is typical to see when you are OOB. It's actually quite useful as an indicator. I've been doing AP for 3 years and I can still use that to tell when I am out. Sounds like you are doing well at projecting, have to just keep at it and it will improve.
24  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: How do OBE's compare to physical reality? on: April 08, 2014, 02:33:06
When I say taking them at face value that is generally speaking of course given the assumption that most of the people posting are not going to be on BS. And by getting the general feel of what these psychedelics are capable of I can gain insight. Though IDK there that many make up trips as you are saying, to sound like an expert. Perhaps I am wrong. Maybe you can enlighten me. I would have to call many other testimonies from experimentation into question if I do that though perhaps.

In the end let me just clarify that you are not saying that I should give up on trusting psychedelic trips reports that I read in general to get a good idea about what these things are capable of right?

I'm not saying you should give up reading and evaluating the reports you read. I don't think trust is necessary if you are looking for the underlying value. The question is not whether psychedelics can take you straight into the Astral, no one is disputing that for sure. The question is, are they the best way to get there, and do the benefits outweigh the risks? Tripping and being enlightened are different things. I think you can have high value experiences without them, but I won't judge their use and/or say it's wrong or even unnecessary to use them. I apologize if I've done that.

Also when I talk about BS appearing reports, I am also referring to Astral Projection reports since they are also "trips" into the Non-Physical. But if you just look at them for their real value, it's not important if they "really" happened. It would be kind of silly to debate that anyway.
25  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: How do OBE's compare to physical reality? on: April 08, 2014, 01:31:57

As far as attempting to interpret other experiences I don't have much of a choice as of right now. I have done very well in interpreting others experience so far generally speaking. And if I didn't do any interpreting and judging I would be even more lost on the bigger spiritual picture of what is going on in the world. In attempting to judge your psychedelic experience it's not like I am comparing apples and oranges IMO. Like comparing your psychedelic experience to that of a Christian, but rather I am comparing your psychedelic experience with other psychedelic experiences, all at face value.
Peace.

I'd caution against taking people's reports at face value. I've read quite a few in various places. Not impressed by the some of the short novels certain people write which appear to be either grossly embellished or just completely invented. Looks like are trying to either get attention, impress people or establish themselves as some sort of expert. At the same time, some of the same people are constantly trying to "interpret" the experiences of the "less experienced" people where they try to come off as a teacher/guru. Their comments often look like the "teacher" trying to grade the "student's" work of with subtle slights and minimizing the value in order to make themselves look like an authority. Fortunately, I can see straight through their BS.

IMO, the real value of any experience, yours or someone else's lies in whether it produces any spiritual growth. It sounds like we agree on that which is the most important thing anyway.
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