A very interesting experience Selski!

I too have wondered if these seemingly earth-like environments are actually earth or an astral version of it.

I feel that that there is no definitive answer: it depends on the experience in question.

Sometimes you may go to that actual location, other times it may be a representation of it in the astral somewhere. Afterall, you are meant to find everything there that you can find here.. whole towns and cities etc.

Some of them may be based on locations here on earth, which is maybe what happened in your case, others may be wildely different. As for the inhabitants, I think in some cases they are aware of their situation, but in others they may not. Could it be that 'nationality' is somehow represented in the belief system areas, so all those who are deeply attached to particular countries can go to places that corrospond to them?

I think that's certainly possible! For some people, nationality is more powerful than religion, or indeed IS a religion!

Did anyone see the BBC Panorama Scientology documentary on tuesday night?

This is already doing the rounds on U-tube thanks to the bit where the BBC reporter cracks up and rants and slavers like a madman!

While Scientology doesnt exactly come up smelling of roses, ie how they do appear to intimidate anyone who disagrees with them, at the same time the documentary makers didnt come up top of the class either. For a start, the doc was completely biased against scientology from the outset and continually using the term 'cult' when speaking to the scientlogy boss could only have the purpose of being confrontational.

Also, the clips of families whoese children have 'disconnected' them doesnt really say very much. Yes this was a terrible thing to happen, but this kind of thing can happen to children who adopt any new religion opposed by their parents, eg islam or evangelical christianity. It is hardly fair to talk of scientology as if it is the only religion for this kind of event to occur.

Also the interviews with so called 'cult busters' was biased as there was no questioning of these people's motives. Many so called 'cult busters' have their own agendas, many of which are made up of evangelicals and others of an even more crackpot persuasion.

I found it hilarious in a way when the reporter finally cracked up!

PS need I say that all 'accepted' religions today originally started off as 'cults'. how big does a belief system have to be before it stops being a 'cult' and starts being a 'religion'? 'Established' religions obviously try to supress new belief systems from springing up, just as their own did, as it is a threat to their dominance. They should also realise that such resistance doesnt work. These people should read their own history!

I have been following this case. It certainly is tragic.

I think you would have to be a top class remote viewer to have any results, but people should have a go at it nonetheless.

I disagree.

Thats what astral exploration is all about.

It is possible to achieve a degree of experience which banishes all doubt. It takes time but you will get there IF you stick at it.

I now have absolutely no doubts about the astral world and where we are 'headed afterwards' to use a term someone used earlier. Mainly because i have already been to several of these areas and have personal experience of them. You dont need to wait 'until afterwards', you can go there now.

Once you get into the astral with 100% awareness, not just lucid... I mean 100% awareness, so that what you are experiencing is JUST AS REAL AS WHERE YOU ARE SITTING NOW READING THIS, or even more so, you will find that these areas become much more stable and you will soon be in no doubt as to the reality of your experience.

Keep practising raising your awareness each time you have an experience... that's the key.

In my opinion 'phasing' is the way forward. This approach is one of the greatest breakthroughs in the exploration and understanding of our greater reality ever to be made.

Excellent thread Andrew!

I'll add my answers shortly.

However, I would just say that I agree with Hannah that one of the biggest revelations for me has been that all astral/lucid/obe/dream experiences are all in fact the same thing - the only thing that differs is your level of conscious awareness.

ie during a standard 'dream' your conscious awareness is almost zero so you are at the mercy of what your sub-conscious mind happens to throw at you! (although this can be very useful in its own right of course - dream analysis is very useful), right through to full-on 'obes' and 'astral projections' where your conscious awareness in 100%, sometimes more so!

'Ludid dreams'  basically mean experiences where you can be anything up to 99% aware... however that missing 1% makes a huge difference!

For me, this revelation was a godsend because it made things so much easier.. everyone gets so hung up on classificatons - was this an obe? was this a dream? etc - now I don't worry about it: I just concentrate on raising awareness.

It's also encouraging for people as well - astral exploration is not an impossible task - you have 'astral' experiences every night!!! And you exist across the entire spectrum of consiousness!

ummm.... you've lost me completely now!

Unfortunately I am not actually Frank Cavernstoy! lol

As for your question, you have to remember that when we expand our consiousness to full-on F4, our 'human' experience becomes just a tiny drop in an ocean of experience, so I would not class F4 as 'human' - it is way beyond 'human'. When you engage with F4 you will become aware that you have went through a vast array of different experiences in objective reality, of which being human is the latest.

As for the process behind us getting together (in F4) and starting up this physical system - the jury is still out on how that came about, but it seems to be a 'standard' development in systems such as ours that Physical systems are created in order to experience objective reality - a physical system is THE way of experiencing objective reality -it is the 'end product' of everything started off in F4. It is likely that in all systems, this process follows the same overall format although as i said nobody really knows about them so the specifics of these other systems may be wildly different. However they will all involve the creation of a physical system of some sort in order to experience objective reality - objective reality IS the physical system.

According to Frank's findings (so far), everyone who is reading this has decided to experience that wonderful option known as 'Human existance'.

We experience a huge number of these physical human lives at the same time, and over a range of different time periods and even other physical universes.

Afterwards, when we have spent as long as we need to recovering in the 'astral' ie F3, then we will refocus back to F4  once again. There will be no need to have another human experience because we will have experienced so many human lives that we will have pretty much covered all the angles possible in a human experience.

Once we arrive back in F4, we can decide what to experience next.

The physical world systems, all of which join on to F4, are designed to allow us to directly experience all manner of experiences in objective reality, but we must remember that Human experience is only one part of this opportunity of experience.

We can experience being all different types of lifeforms that you can imagine such as insects, cats and dogs, birds etc and thats only the start - what about what we would call 'innanimate' objects - rocks, trees, clouds, pencils, an areoplane, planets and stars, or something more abstract - a musical note? a colour? a ray of light? What about experiencing at the bacterial level -or the molecular, or the sub atomic or quantum?

Indeed anything you can imagine can all be experienced, and in experiencing them it gives you ideas for further experiences.

There is actually an infinite number of experiences since the physical universe itself is constantly changing and evolving and as we bring new ideas into it, this affects the mix.

When we think of the old mystical notion of everything being alive, of a living conscious universe - this view is actually correct.

In F4 we can also engage with the 'concepts' of all these things and gain further insights into them.

Remember also that consciousness does not end in F4 - consciousness is infinite - so there are likely to be an inifinite number of other 'F4-F1' systems, perhaps similar to ours, perhaps wildly different - nobody knows too much about these others yet - we are hardly scratching the surface with our own so its best to concentrate on that first!

taking Jewish thought forms into the larger Hellenistic culture of the Roman Empire

Hi DH,

I agree. It also wasnt just one way traffic. 'Jewish thoughtforms' were themselves heavily influenced by Hellenistic philosophy. Indeed you can argue that the whole concept of 'jewish philosophy' is hellenistic, jewish hellenistic , but very much part of the hellenistic world.

The Hellenistic neo-platonic influence on christianity is huge. The concept of the trinity and the chain of being from godhead, to arch angels, to angels, to saints to humans - all this is direct influence of neo-platonic philosophy.

The Christian fathers did not dispute this. They just put the best that pagan philosophy had to offer to flesh out their own doctrines. Indeed, many of the early church fathers were converted former neo-platonists, so its no accident that there is a lot of neo-platonic concepts within the core theology of christianity.

the religion of christianity is very much a hellenistic religion, with jewish influence of course, but in the end, very hellenistic.

The most important reason why Christians made Sunday the sabbath was because 'Sunday' or 'the day of the sun' was already very popular in the Roman empire for the worship of the sun and Mithras.

Instead of competing with pagans on this, the Christians incorporated Sunday into Christianity by making sunday the day for worshipping the sOn rather than the sUn. Sunday was chosen for the sabbath as it made for a more smooth transition to the new religion for most inhabitants of the empire.

The Sabbath observance was eventually enshrined in imperial law.
In the same way, The Roman festival of Saturnalia was incorporated into Christianity as Christmas.

This was a fantastic strategy adopted by the Christian fathers and supported by Constantine and later Christian emperors: Instead of competing with the most popular pagan festivals and observances, which they knew they didn't have a hope in hell of banning, they instead decide to incorporate them into Christianity itself.

This allowed for a relatively smooth transition from a pagan empire to a Christian empire. The rest as they say, is history.

I followed this project years ago, but to my disapointment, I have checked out their site recently and nothing much has changed.. they are still pretty much where they were 4 or 5 years ago.

Last night as I was dreaming, I became lucid and from there I ended up going through a series of experiences in what I can only describe as something akin to Monroe's/Moen's 'recovery centres' and other rehabilitation areas in Monroe's F27 (or the upper areas of Frank's Focus 3).

In the first 'tour', I awoke in what appeared to be a hospital ward, but this particular room was a small adjoining room next to the main wards, where people receive specialist care. Everything was a pristine white but had all the kind of equipment you associate with a modern hospital ward.

I found myself lying on a reclining white seat that was somehow integrated into the wall. I remember next to me was another young guy, maybe around early to mid 20s. In front of us was a 'nurse' of some kind, she was administering assistance and talking things over with the guy next to me and answering questions about what he was doing there.

She told me that this is a hospital where people sometimes come in order to overcome traumas that occurred to them during their physical lives and perhaps after traumatic deaths. The hospital was like any other, except it healed psychological traumas rather than physical ones. It also dealt with people who were afflicted with emotional distortions like greed, selfishness, paranoia etc. these characterstics were all viewed as ailments.. emotional ailments, which the hopsital could also help with as part of its duty of care.

The guy next to me had apparently just died. It was not entirely clear what had happened, but I had the impression of a sudden accident, perhaps a car accident or similar event, and the nurse was explaining to him what had happened. The guy was chatting away quite happily to the nurse and it turns out he was Irish. He and the nurse both chatted about the fortunes of the Irish rugby team in its recent tournaments and he made a few lighted hearted remarks concerning the national team. The nurse conversed with him quite readily on this and I had the impression that this was all about putting him at ease as much as possible.

This guy was aware of what had happened, especially now that the nurse had explained the situation to him and that he had 'passed over' as it were.

However at this point I suddenly felt a wave of compassion for him. Here he was: he had crossed over suddenly but he remained grounded in what was going on, and he chatted about the things that were interest to him such as the rugby etc, but it suddenly came to me how this guy would never be able to go home, never be able to go back to his parents, his girlfriend, his friends and so on.

At this moment I saw the other side of the coin as far as physical death is concerned: the part that people never seem to mention. Everyone is aware of the loved ones left behind and how traumatic it is for us when someone dies, but what is not talked about nearly as much is the emotional loss of the 'deceased' individual himself/herself - the deceased is equally cut off from the family and loved ones that they knew.. for if it is difficult for us to communicate with them, it is equally difficult for them to communicate with us. The veil comes down.

I had the impression that for this young guy, although he knew the score regarding what had happened to him, he had not yet realized the full implications, but that he would in time.

Yes, there are other things to occupy you on the other side and other loved ones who will look after you when you cross over,and new friends, but that does not lesson the pain of leaving others behind and the pain of not being able to communicate with them and to be with them.

I had never really considered the emotional implications of physical death from this other perspective before, ie from the emotional perspective of the deceased. I had always viewed it from the perspective of those left behind as I guess that is the default perspective we have. Maybe it is obvious to some but I found it quite an insight and it opened my eyes.

I didn't stick around in the ward after this. The next thing I was talking with the nurse about people who have lived traumatic lives and she was talking about those afflicted by war. The next thing I remember, I was in a jungle like environment and all hell was breaking loose! Grenades flying everywhere, people in uniforms gunning each other down etc..

It was unbelievable.. the next thing i know i was in a military style camp site, somewhere else in the jungle and I was sitting at a table outside and i was chatting to a couple of guys there. They appeared to oversee this place and it turns out again, that it was some kind of rehabilitation center. What i had just experienced was the kind of thing these people had lived through, both in the physical and also in related belief center areas afterwards.
They had now been rescued or had made their own way here and in this camp they slowly learned how to let go of their old military lifestyle and obsession with death, which for them had become overwhelming. In this environment, they were aware of what they were doing and that they were in a process of rehabilitation. They made friends with others here and generally tired to build relationships had were on a more positive basis.

I was just settling in to this place, which seemed like a scout camp for grown ups, when I transitioned somewhere else again.


This time, i was in some kind of casino leisure complex and this place was mega rich..everything gold and silver plated etc and totally garish. It was populated full of mega rich people strutting their stuff and generally showing off how rich they were. It seems that everyone was checking out each other to see who had the best threads on. I felt like a tramp by comparison!

I walked through a cordon which sectioned off a VIP area and this was full of even richer people, if such a thing is possible. I found the whole environment surreal. Normally i would view this as some kind of belief system territory and it certainly sounds like one, but again, I felt the distinct impression that this was another kind of rehabilitation center. That is, these people were aware of their issues but they spent time here trying to overcome them. From what i could see, they weren't having much success!
I don't know how things operated there but perhaps helpers were there and continually worked on them and helped them to achieve a more balanced state of mind.

At this point, my 'tour' came to an end and I awoke to make notes. Even then a lot of it slipped by and I have only got the general outline of things that happened, and only some of the things said in conversation; a lot of the conversations were very detailed so this lack of total recall is irritating. Very interesting experience all the same!

I had one experience which may have been F4 related.

I often have experiences which involve a golden light, something akin to a sunset like effect.

In this instance found myself being drawn towards this golden light, but as I was drawing towards it, some part of me started to resist, most likely as a fear reaction. This resistance manifested in a pulling effect that attempted to drag me back from the golden light and back to my original suroundings. At the same time, the golden light exerted an equal pull and for a long while I was stuck in the middle with both forces trying to tug me in their respective directions.

Eventially the side trying to pull me back won over and I returned to my original location and from there to F1.

I wasnt sure what to make of this experience but I later related it to Frank and he was of the opinion that this was an objective interpretation of me partially widening my awareness to F4 but then pulling back due to fear. The golden light was actually me, but me in my F4 state and I objectively interpreted this as some kind of external force.

This is quite possible. I don't know. I do remember the fear was that of a dramatically altered state of consciousness and one that I didnt feel ready for at that moment, so it may well have been some kind of F4 experience, or more accurately, a brush with the borders of F4.

Would you mind relating your F4 experiences Novice?

Hannah:

I wonder if you are going too far with your perception of the BBC. Many Americans make this assumption also, that because the BBC is a state funded broadcasting agency, it is 'state controlled' ie a propaganda machine like you find in Russia or China.

This is simply not true. If you actually look into the set-up of the BBC you will find that it is a state *funded* broadcaster, but one of the core constitutional principles of the BBC is its freedom of expression and freedom from governmental control. This is one of its guiding principles.

For this reason, you will find that the BBC is not in any way 'the spokesman for the government'. Quite the opposite in fact:

The BBC has actually been criticised in the past for its anti-governmental bias and its lefty-liberal outlook, and it has been recently accused of being overtly biased against Blair and Bush's war in Iraq (mind you, who can blame them!).