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1  Dreams / Welcome to Dreams! / Re: Illuman's Dream Journal on: Yesterday at 23:46:35
Thank you Lumaza Smiley I appreciate the response.  As someone who has virtually no experience in any of this.  (Hell I cant recall dreaming for many many many years prior to what got me to come here a few months ago in the first place)  That leaves me having to build the foundation from the ground up and without a frame of reference.  Appreciate any and all input. 

To begin, what I had meant by not scratching is I successfully mentally blocked it out.  I knew it was to test my grit so to speak and I made it through that.  And the other various ticks so to speak.  (I had let them interrupt me too much in the past and tried to come to this realization consciously this time) The reason I thought it was counter productive in the past was because of the pull of attention from NP to P.  Of course that is just my rough interpretation based on the myriad of posts on this forum. 

Secondly, thank you very much some some clarification.  I guess I have zero idea what it is I am looking for, or attempting to accomplish because for all intents and purposes I have no framework with which to envision this.  So as I understand it that lens focusing (much like when you go to the eye Dr.  and they flick back and forth those glasses, but minus any color.  Just like (This one or this one?) but variations of dark.  So let me get this clear this is an initial point where I dont just observe?  If/when I get to that perception change of sorts I use intent to "go there"  There being the darkness?  Or the specs of light that were coming through?  Its hard to know what to focus on, especially when most places say to lose focus and just let be.

Sorry if I dont fully understand, believe me I am trying.  But its like someone trying to explain something 100% foreign to me.  Maybe no longer 100% but you get my drift.  Thank you for your time.
2  Dreams / Welcome to Dreams! / Re: Illuman's Dream Journal on: Yesterday at 22:22:01
4 pm 11-20 everyone in the house took a nap so decided to break out some binaural beats.  The 30 min om one I did also put the other one on a playlist from multidimensional man.  Got through a full hour of laying completely still. I didn't readjust for anything. Itches eyes watering outside movement. It did take my attention momentarily but of always kept on.  At various points through both tracks the darkness would begin movement.  Overlapping variations of dark.  With specs of light thrown in like something wanted to come into focus.   I also distinctly recall there being a few times when my vision would adjust like trying to focus a picture.  Like an entirely different view of the dark. Nothing much changed except my perception of that darkness.  Nothing spectacular but I fully expect it to translate tonight into dreams. Ill keep documenting.
3  Dreams / Welcome to Dreams! / Re: Illuman's Dream Journal on: Yesterday at 16:41:19
Before I forget I wanted to self access a bit.

I believe currently that one of the reasons for my lack of success (that is for lack of a better term,  it is most definitly success in terms of me thinking about this and still pursuing it, not success in the traditional sense of having an OBE or achieved the end result, however success can be measured in many ways, failures are often small successes) anyways one of the reasons is fear.  For whatever reason I think it has to do with not wanting to change so much that I become my father (IE. I leave my family and make my kids grow up without a father) however irrational this is it was a huge imprint on me growing up and it obviously built who I am today.  Everything ive done has been to not be him.  Why I didnt drink until over 21, or do drugs, or smoke for a very very long time.  Eventually I didnt let that control me and I went to experience these things,  likely to understand WHY.  Thankfully I made it out on the other side without repeating the mistakes of my parents.  IE.  neglect of my children and the seperation of my family.  (Even though I was cheated on and could have easily ran away)  Instead I had a moment of clarity where I removed myself from the situation and just contemplated MY part in it.  Anyhow that led to not placing blame, and understanding that I had a part in that event as much as she did. 

I think I am starting to break free from some of the fear blockages and I expect it will lead to more dreams, or lucid experiences.  Having never done an OBE I still have this irrational fear in the back of my head that I will chose not to come back and essentially leave my family the same way I was left as a child (like ill die or just not come back)  even though I know (KNOW) this reality is not everything I do not want to stunt the growth of those I love by selfish action.  (Something along those lines)  and not having the experience within the NP leads to an unknown,  an irrational fear.  Even though I read about all the people who have done it, explored themselves and came back I myself dont know that.  If that makes sense.  I have a very large dislike for being controlled and the fears that have been built up through my life are a control mechanism (likely a survival thing not sure)  I do know that I am sick of it and refuse to give my power to fear.  This is such an expansive new world with a cornucopia  of information it is so easy to take some new piece of information and infect it with fear. 

Okay sorry for the rant I had to put this here so I can see it and reflect on it and remember it as I document my experiences.
4  Dreams / Welcome to Dreams! / Re: 15 second lesson - Lucid Dream Experience on: Yesterday at 16:28:36
Yeah recently I have been under the impression that the reasons for our teachings are to make us DO so to speak.  Essentially training to become your own creator instead of being limited to others creations.  (Dont know if I expressed my thoughts on this properly)  Anyhow in my estimation this life is training.  The smile for me is fairly important (but obviously each experience is relevant to the individual, so take it how you will) the question for me seems to have been answered.

You seem to have gotten it exactly.  The chains themselves are questions, uncertainty, belief that the answers are outside yourself, that the guide you saw was anything but a part of yourself.  I have a feeling you are on the right path, and while the questions themselves may not be the chains it may be the manner in which you give power to outside forces rather than trust that it all comes from within and you are accessing yourself so to speak.  (Now mind you this is just a novices opinion, but I hope my reply makes something sit well with you and just reaffirm your thoughts on that you are making progress and doing exactly what you need.  Your teaching yourself in an infinite number of ways through various parts of yourself (as we all are) as you may well know each child or person learns differently than another based on experiences. 

(Dont mean to be intrusive, I am just deciding to become more active on the forums so this topic permeates my thoughts on a regular basis, I am trying not to fall into old habbits and put this by the wayside again)

Best wishes to you,  with every person who succeeds and documents or shares the ball keeps rolling. 
5  Dreams / Welcome to Dreams! / Re: Illuman's Dream Journal on: Yesterday at 15:37:29
11-20-2017

Still no dreams to report or anything unsual, however this is to get me back into the swing of intent.  I am not entirely sure why I fell out of it but it must of been necessary.  Likely to give me a different perspective.  To get an outside look first.  Anyhow now that I am doing this again I fully expect to have a dream and document it to get back on track.  One step at a time.

(note: between 9-10-2017 and now I had not had any dream experiences I can remember.)
6  Dreams / Welcome to Dreams! / Re: What's on the Menu for Tonight? on: Yesterday at 15:33:07
Before I read the rest of the comments I wanted to leave one myself before I forget.  I just wanted to point out a common theme I see, whether or not it has any meaning for you I felt the need to mention it.

From the beginning the first experience, all the way through I see the path (or paths) that are laid out for you.  Then there are snipits of you taking control instead of adhering to the scenario in front of you.  IE.  at the end you keep asking what you can do to help (IE you didnt ask which path to take, you figured it out for yourself)  Even in the second scene your the one figuring out everything yourself, taking control almost.  Where in the last one you in a way gave control up (in the sense that you weren't able to come up with a conclusion on your own)

Now I dont know what any of that means to you, if anything.  For some reason I felt the need to express that so I did. 

I really am in awe with the experiences you all have.  And I try very hard not to let "envy" come into play.  Heh.  I look forward to my own experiences that I can converse with others about.  The whole sense of community is amazing.  If we are all one like I believe most of us here understand or believe then posting a thread and having a conversation about it really is an inner dialogue with ones self.  Like asking yourself for a different perspective on something so you can condense it into a more comprehensible form for yourself.  (In turn for many other parts of yourself as you post it and share it with other selves)
7  Dreams / Welcome to Dreams! / Re: it ain't easy on: Yesterday at 15:17:48
I agree completely, after a small hiatus and re-taking in some of the information I did two years ago things are crystalizing a bit more in my head.  For this reason alone I feel is where that inception type thought comes in.  Training your brain to question reality always is key.  If you flip light switches and question whether your dreaming in your waking life that will natural transfer over to the dream state.  Once that happens things that happen in your usual reality (IE, follow the laws of physics etc) do something vastly different to "trigger" your brain or consciousness to "KNOW" that this is an alternate reality from which your consciousness normally operates.  Or maybe rather normally identifies with and recognizes. 

That being said I am rather new to all of this and my replies and comments are more to attempt to build a frame work for myself while experiencing a sense of community to reaffirm to myself that what I am doing is correct for me.  Or in fact what I want.  I wish everyone here the best and this type of community is irreplaceable.  Thanks to everyone who puts time and effort into this because it benefits all.   
8  Dreams / Welcome to Dreams! / Re: Illuman's Dream Journal on: Yesterday at 15:11:08
So I am back, not even realizing I was gone until now.  While at the time I was extremely intent on "sticking it out" I somehow let it go to the wayside.  Maybe I needed some processing time.  Maybe I am being forced into old habits in order to break them, to be honest I am not sure.  That being said after 2 months or so of falling back into old habits I caught myself not wanting to do that.  What I am realizing is that much like an infant we as humans like to think we are consciously doing things.  But to me it seems we are on auto pilot until we are able yo train enough to take control of our own being.  Like we are in a gestation period taking it all in with a blueprint that moves us along until we evolve.  Any way that is my current thinking.  As we have more intent on becoming aware or conscious we get the needed help to do so.  I am on my mobile device I'm going to post on my laptop in a bit. 

-Neil
9  Dreams / Welcome to Dreams! / Re: Illuman's Dream Journal on: September 11, 2017, 15:21:59
Night of 9-10-17

No recall.

~~~~~~~~

I already downloaded Xanth's ebook and read most of it (I only stopped because on his recommendation somewhere in there he said to practice some things before going further so I trusted that.  I have to dig back into it because somehow I got distracted, that was 2 days ago and in theory I should have been more disciplined in my practice.  Again with so much info though I find myself getting off track and moving on to another and another and another because of ALL this info.  I am positive I will get there though.  I am going to dig through the links you posted first and hit Xanth's again see where it goes.  Thanks again EV
10  Astral Chat / Welcome to Members Introductions! / Re: Introduction on: September 11, 2017, 15:17:32
I want to "Introduce" myself more.  I have a feeling as I go having the information of how I became to be who or what I am currently may ease in helping both myself and others to help me.  I will say my memory is pretty shoddy.  I seem to always retain only what I find important to myself and the rest gets pushed aside.   So while I dont have any secrets per se (as this point may come to indicate) that isnt to say I dont have things I have for some reason or another kept even from myself.  I dont think that is the case but hey.  I cant really know.

So I was born in Buffalo, NY.  (USA) 12-17-1984 (recently looked into some numerology, some unique things came out of this but I dont have a large basis for this so I dont know how seriously I took it.

I have a younger sister (3 years younger) and my dad took off with another woman when I was 3.  (maybe 4) I recall for a time my mother tried to involve him in my life but after waiting on a curb for hours for my father one to many times the thought of him having anything to do with us, or me went away.  He eventually moved and the song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkcbxjWG9Mc (Father of mine- Everclear) turned out to be an anthem sort of for me.  My mother and father were both alcoholics (Dad still is as far as I know, not really sure tbh) My mom raised us alone and had a large alcohol and drug problem, so I lived in the poorest place in Buffalo, which is the east side.  One white kid in a sea of difference.  A training grounds I suppose.  It was alot of strife.  I excelled greatly in school.  Honors all around until somewhere in middle school when I started realizing I could literally learn and do anything I wanted all of that was so easy but I had a tough time with the WHY.  WHY am I doing this,  why do I walk through my young life doing the same thing over and over because someone else says its good for me.  Why is it good for me.  etc.  I had moved pretty consistently once a year (at least) until I was 13 or so.  Keeping a ground of friends became impossible and in my younger years I pretty much stopped trying to make friends knowing they would be out of my life no more than a school year later (so I usually had one good friend and a group of HIS or HER friends I hung out with until my next move).  I did eventually stick somewhere for a 2-3 year period when my mom decided to move my sister and I out of the East Side of the hood and into the suburbs.  That was... Interesting.  Somehow I was more of an outcast there than in the hood.  I seemed to be tested often even though I was big and much bigger than most I went to school with.  But it was like them saying, your not from the city, your not tough (not sure exactly) but it led to alot of fights, suspensions, detentions, etc.  I removed myself more and more from school.  The last thing I took from school was reading,  My english teacher in 9th grade introduced me to "The Hobbit" and that began a strong love for fantasy. 

I had a rather large group of friends all outcasts to some degree.  We learned runic (JRR's language) just delved into nerdom completely.  Magic the Gathering was a stample for a good chunk of my life,  dungeons and dragons etc.  Games, mostly RPGs. That type of thing.  I had convinced my family to get a personal computer for the house when I could and have lived an alternate life online ever since.  Much of my early years I escaped into my alter ego or online avatar often.  Got into Ultima Online and then started private servers which allowed players to actively create and interact with a fantasy world, much like visualized DND.  This was before DNDs actual games.  UO was the first.  (This is all just generic info obviously there are alot of gaps in between all this)

I eventually at 15 dropped out of school, it started when I was 14 when I just stopped going to school but until they forced me to go to Job Corps because I was a minor and they told me my mother would get in trouble.  I cared enough that I agreed and finished a 1 year course in 3 months and got out.  (Computer stuff ofc,  I had taught myself how to build computers from the ground up at 13 and anything software related I could immediately pick up because I knew how the entire process worked, how that software and program even came to life. )  By the time I was 19 one of my best friends had moved to TX to meet and be with a girl he met online.  He knew the most about my background and was very similar to me.  He said just leave.  Ill buy a bus ticket,  come stay with me,  after 1 year id get in state residency and I would go to University of Texas.  It sounded like another adventure to me and I really had nothing for me at home.  So I did.  I went to college there 4 years but much like my early life the "WHY" escaped me.  What was this all for, I was just being indoctrinated it felt like, pushed in directions others thought were good for me without knowing me at all.  A generic herd mentality.  Needless to say I dropped out of college and moved back to Buffalo.   My sisters finace had died in bed next to her (drug OD) and left her and my niece alone.  And knowing she had no one and grew up the same as I in alot of ways I wanted to be there for her.  Eventually I got into her life of socializing, partying.  I wind up starting selling weed around then 23-24 or so.  Took an eigth and turned it into a half ounce, into an ounce into a quarter pound into many many many pounds and off began my drug dealing career (uhg).  I ran the streets and completely controlled the flow of drugs into the suburbs and neighboring communities for years.  I was making a good 1-2000 a week of the green stuff but for some reason I got into cocaine (You would think my mom being a crack addict all her life would have kept me from doing this but I guess not)  The money there was insane and that 1-2k a week turned into 1-2k a day.  Throw some pharmaceuticals and entheogens and I had a real addiction to money and the power that came with it.  And of course sure I eventually created a drug habbit as I become delving into the life of the people around me.  I started getting high. 

Friends of mine began dropping like flies.  Their lives also followed a trend from weed, to LSD/Ecstasy to Cocaine to eventually heroin and those who couldnt come back,  well.  The passed.  In this mess after a very good friend of mine died (And of course as im going through this and losing people I had much guilt in having a part in their deaths.  A lot of times I felt if it werent for me they wouldnt be where they were, doing what they were doing and thinking of how different things would be with me removed from the equation.  Needless to say it took a while for that type of realization to take effect in real life.  I met the mother of my children in this mess,  at a funeral party (basically debauchery in the name of remembering the one we lost) a girl and I locked eyes in a room of 40 plus people.  I felt a shiver run up my spine and right then I knew we were meant to be together.  Many things happened but she eventually did pull me from those depths and I did much damage to her along the way, mentally.  Our life together today is very peaceful but we still deal with the consequences of our actions.  Mainly me.  I see how the lying and lifestyle I led had damaged her psyche and im still working on repairing that one.  I missed the birth of my first child because I got raided while she was pregnant and thats how she woke up and changed her life.  This was 5 years or more ago now.  I want to state somewhere in all this I did much LSD but not many trips were for any other puspose but recreation,  fun.  However across the universe has always had some profound effect on me while under the influence.  I had an experience I find extremely hard to put into words but simply it was bliss.  During a song or sequence in the movie (Friends in the real world said I stooped up and stumbled into the TV like I was being sucked in)  I realize now I must have been holding on to my physical reality very hard. I was transported to what I can only describe as ultimate vibration.  I feel like I touched that place OBE, AP talks about but I cheated so to speak.  I got slammed back down to reality very soon after and when I came out I was encircled by dogs and the friend I was with had a large knife out (presumably for self defense but I do not know.)  Inside the experience though I tasted the sweetest most pleasant taste you could ever imagine.  My whole being was simply vibration.  It was sort of like the ultimate sexual experience (though that doesnt do it justice I just dont have words)  There were 5 ( think) golden beings I dont remember any difference in any of them sort of like a mix between this https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiyt4nVpp3WAhWnx4MKHXmCCsEQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fscifi.stackexchange.com%2Fquestions%2F33123%2Fdid-neo-die-in-the-end-of-the-matrix-trilogy&psig=AFQjCNFPNf_UyzRKq4dtvdp6iNhW6iTUNg&ust=1505225099458943 and this https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj64_3hpp3WAhVh6IMKHaoMBWoQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fscifi.stackexchange.com%2Fquestions%2F95787%2Fwhy-is-seraph-gold&psig=AFQjCNFPNf_UyzRKq4dtvdp6iNhW6iTUNg&ust=1505225099458943 The entire "room" I was in was golden too,  and so were the beings.  But there was variation enough I could differentiate between the two one a room the other people (sort of).  Before I smashed back to reality I could only get out only one question (I guess two technically) in my extreme Ecstasy or elation.  "We do this? (Like we willingly chose to do this?)  I might add that these 5 beings radiated so much power and I felt the fluctuations in it when I asked that question.  Like the ultimate joy from them.  If they could nod or had any movement I dont know but i just "felt" responses.  So they agreed yes that was a correct question which I clearly already knew the answer to.  They were sort of observing.  I say "We do this over and over?" and an even STRONGER feeling of joy from them I felt.  That is the limit of this experience and I almost got there a few times using drugs again but I always felt that getting there that way could either cause harm,  or it was just cheating, like I was bypassing the process for which to get there and that somehow didnt seem right to me.

Anyhow sorry to get off on a tangent I am trying to lay as much info as to how and why I came to be here as possible.  There came a point in time in my life where synchronicity was undoubtedly real to me.  Too many things had happened to reaffirm my direction in the PR through events,  Some were as simple as 11:11 me for whatever reason chosing to look at the clock at the moment my mind was expanding,  when I was feeling that tingle in the back of my skull.  Or reading about spiritual stuff getting that feeling, going outside and seeing the world move much like when I would trip.  I could see like FUZ or electromagnetic auras around things (no colors so I dont know if it has anything to do with like energy aura) Id find feathers in odd places or people who never appear would show up out of the blue talking about the same stuff I was just researching.  I mean many things began convincing me of this.  So I cut out as many addictive things as I could (am still working on cigarettes currently) just because I do believe giving my will power away even temporarily for escape or whatever else it might be seems counter productive to what I am trying to do here.  I am going to leave this post here and revisit it and maybe fill in holes and gaps but as of right now I need to make a bottle for my 5 month old. 

Thanks for reading, hope I dont scare anyone away.  Again none of this is secretive.  I feel no shame in it as I love who I am and would not be who I am were it not for this constant learning.  I will say I have ALWAYS been then type who must learn by experience.  I find it very difficult being told what to do (Daddy issues?)  so I have never been religious in any way, I have extreme problems with authority and power figures that type of things.  It comes down to that "WHY" question.  I seem to have to convince myself something is good for me so I find myself digging to the core of everything, right down to the foundation.  I did it with computers I do it with breaking games beta testing finding problems and abusing them.  I do it with everything,  my mind tries to get to the root.  Anyways,  Thanks again I am thoroughly enjoying this. 
11  Dreams / Welcome to Dreams! / Re: Illuman's Dream Journal on: September 11, 2017, 04:24:39
Thank you both very much.  I appreciate any and all advice.  I dont see like an ultra noob guide on the forums its all sort of mixed pieces.  What I did understand is for most the "advanced" stuff learning to do affirmations and programming my mind prior to bed (I didnt know through the day will begin toying with it).  But I honestly took a bit to figure out I had to even remember my dreams to aid in LD or AP etc.  So im getting there, this is one of the topics I find most interesting so I plan on sticking with it. 

9-9-17

No dream recall however I awoke several times in the night which I never do (I was attempting to practice wbtb to some extent but my newborn baby makes this kind of hard.  Im toying with it.  I did wake with vibrations ( for lack of a better term) and I am sort of suprised I didnt remember dreaming any of the times I awoke.  I am going to record every night even if I dont recall.  But as you said.  I WILL remember my dreams when I awake. 
12  Dreams / Welcome to Dreams! / Illuman's Dream Journal on: September 09, 2017, 22:37:50
9-9-17

This is my first attempt at training myself to put more energy and thought into the astral and the exploration and experience of it.  For various reasons I have put this topic aside as "real life" took me off course and I did not get far at all (unless you consider it as training for me to recognize it NOW and use it to my advantage).  I will keep this updated regularly as really it is a tool for myself and I find it easier than physically writing them down.  I imagine as I immerse myself in all things astral experiences will ramp up so I want to go through the training so to speak correctly, without jumping ahead or trying to achieve anything but inner peace.  To begin my only real purpose is communicating with my "guide" (or guides?) in hopes that I can further this training and begin adventuring.  Anyhow I want to preface this with I usually NEVER remember my dreams unless they were so forceful in that dream state it was shocking once I returned to this reality.  Even then I never documented.  Last night I told myself I would remember my dream, and I did.  So that is progress enough to keep me on this path.

Night of 9-8-17

I can not remember any specific people and the whole of where I was however there were other people in it and I seemed to be "trapped" (for lack of a better term) on one specific street.  I had an apartment or house (or rather I was in one it could have been mine or someone elses).  I recall  being in a house and for whatever reason I was forcefully kept there.  I took a weapon from someone and pointed it at him while exiting the house.  I fired a shot through the door if my memory serves. me.  When I went across the street I avoided going into a specific house a few houses diaganal from where I was, I curled up on the corner of the street and waited to see if I was being watched or followed (felt like I needed protection for some reason).  I eventually made it into the house I intentionally passed and fell asleep with a woman (not sure who, just assumed my GF as this house was VERY similar to my actual apartment) (Heavy front door to the apartment) however I was upstairs. I know this because I hid under covers while people entered and I heard the footsteps indicting for me to hide.  Someone slowly pulled the covers from my face and with glee eerily said "ohhh its you"  I remember talk of him saying he was having the utilities off and they took belongings out of the house.  I also remember this person having an omnipotent feel to them.  I could combat them using normal means,  he had friend cops outside his house coming and going and seemed to have unlimited power in that regard.  I deadbolted the door and felt safe after they took things,  Then I vaguely recall "starting a war" or just engaging in a fight or something, burning down their house with stuffed animals.  (I set fire to the animals underneath the house to start it) that was towards the end I believe or thats all I remember.  Most of it is very hazy and foggy as most of the time when I wake up in the morning its because of screaming kids that need to be fed and changed etc.  Not leaving me with much time to do anything but dive back into reality. 

13  Astral Chat / Welcome to Members Introductions! / Introduction on: September 09, 2017, 15:15:28
Hello everyone thanks for having me.  The reason I joined and essentially was led here was due to strange occurrences in my life.  To sum up though what got me the most was an extreme buildup of pressure in my body and then energy vibrating through my body forcefully.  Whirling or swooshing sounds and I was excited and frightened it was getting stronger and stronger.  It felt like my head was going to explode and like my hair looked like Albert Einstein as in my hair stood up or felt like it did.  I was crazy ancient alien guy in that moment lol thought my mind was literally being blown.  I had to force myself to lay on my bed.  My eyes were forceably being closed I guess losing control of myself was too frightening to allow anything further.

(Sorry for chunks of text I am on mobile)

So I looked all over. I would get those same vibrations on a lesser scale through these past few months ever since it happened.  Mainly we syncronicity happen or the topic I am exploring is consciousness expansion.  Some guru videos did it to me.  Some religious sort of.  Gnostic tetxs.  Uh... Reading up on meditation and eventually one. Astral projection and the like.

I then remember something similar after my last entheogen use (many years ago) I had a blissful moment before I was sucked down to reality again heh I guess I should of listened back then cause I dove into binaural beats and keeping a dream journal.  Looks like it's been leading to this.


Anyhow to avoid getting off on a tagent I want to say I rarely ever remember my dreams.  I think it is because not enough conscious effort was being put into it.  After just browsing last night I did remember a dream when I woke and wrote it down.  So... Progress lol.  Thanks again and I'd like some recommendations of where to begin.  There is so much information here it can be overwhelming at times
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