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1  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / "Demons" and "Angels": some definitions on: June 10, 2004, 16:37:04
i'm posting this in christianity cause christians seem to be the most misunderstanding of what "demon" and "angel" mean when used in the bible (and because there are a few christian references), though the entire north american society is very steeped in misunderstandings of them.

no, i'm not posting this to condemn people for using the words incorrectly because the commonly accepted meaning of the terms is much more prevalent than their actual definitions anyway, and i myself use them incorrectly at times merely to communicate with someone using their own definitions (and because i sometimes get confused and use the wrong definition at times). i'm just posting it to further "knowledge".
(as a note in case someone cares, i copied most of this post from another post i made on another forum)

demon in greek.

according to "Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament" by Joseph Henry Thayer, D.D. demon is defined as "a god, a goddess; an inferior diety, whether good or bad."

according to "The Analytical Greek Lexicon" (published by Zondervan Publishing House in Grand Rapids, Michigan. 7th Printing 1972. Catalog # 6257) demon is defined as "a god, a superior power; in N.T. a malignant demon, evil angel."

as you can see, authors of the new testament bible books/letters/etc use the term "demon" to reference evil entities, but in actual greek use it refers merely to ANY beings which are more powerful than us humans regardless of whether the being is good or bad, though it seems that the greek use of the word also relates that the being should/must be worshipped as a diety to fit this definition. ie, if angels are a race of beings, they would fit under the descriptive use of the term demon because they are (according to the bible's examples) far more powerful than humans are, and many angels are/were (wrongly, since according to christianity there is only one true God) worshipped as dieties.

and on a side note, angels. there are a few variations on the root word used in the greek which becomes denoted to "angel" in many instances in english translations.

<the a has an accent over it>
is defined as "one sent, a messenger, angel,

( <the a and the e have an accent over each>, to tell, to announce.)"

and " <the first a has an accent over it>, a message, doctrine, or precept, delivered in the name of anyone, 1 Jno 3:4"
cross reference 2 Corinthians 12:7 where is uses the former spelling of "angel/messenger" when saying "a messenger of satan" (and remember that satan means merely "an opposer"). the term used to denote "angel" in the english is a term used in the greek to denote a messenger, one who delivers a message, and the term is used of both humans and of entities which God sends and which we call angels.

so yeah. lots of words in the bible which are used as nouns should have been translated into the descriptives which they denote instead. for instance, baptism in the greek is baptizo which means strictly "to dip or immerse", no sprinkling or pouring (which are each DIFFERENT greek words). so as you can see, there are lots of terms and ideas used today by christians and anti-christians alike, to debate and argue over the validity of christianity and other such things, which are completely different from what the terms and ideas originally meant. study should always come before discussion [Smiley]


ps, the images were taken from Smiley
2  Spiritual Evolution / Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! / Stop. Think. Act. on: May 01, 2004, 20:32:07
an important lesson that my d&d gaming group had to teach one of our players once. it's very handy in the real world too ^_^

3  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / hey, everyone remember that game (edit) lullabi on: February 24, 2004, 03:21:59
posted, with the penguin? it's been UPGRADED Cheesy .

edit: i had the wrong link so i'm posting the links edi put in so that people don't have to scroll down to find them, thanks edi


(thanks for the correction sahlyn Cheesy . i had to go back five pages to find it, but you were right, it was lullabi. sorry lullabi ^_^; )
4  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / your baptism on: February 08, 2004, 19:50:54
i'm curious to know who here was baptized because they felt a strong compulsion or urge to do so, versus who was baptized because they made a definitive mental choice to do so.

i myself felt a strong urge, which was strange because i'd grown up going to church three times a week and barely cared too much about it. but one day, a few months after i turned 14, i just felt like i *HAD* to get baptized, and when the minister asked me why i wanted to get baptized i was stumped. it took me a minute or two to even come up with "because i don't want to go to hell". which was another silly thing, i'd grown up in the church and i could answer most of the questions about the doctrine my church believed in, and yet at that moment i couldn't just answer the question using their doctrine about why a person should be baptized.

but anyway ^_^ how about the rest of you? why did you get baptized?

5  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / vw00t! first ap for me ^_^ on: January 27, 2004, 17:12:24
i just had my first consciously cause astral projection experience this morning at around 7-ish am. i'm gonna write it in point format rather than paragraph format cause that's much easier for me to do:

-started off in a dream, dreaming that i was in my bed at the house i grew up in, but at one point i was dreaming that my spirit was partly out of my body but still being anchored there somewhere around my head


where the ] is my spirit (or astral/energy body or whatever you want to call it), the 0 is where my physical head is, the - is my physical body, and the = is my physical feet. i'll use a lowercase o to rep my spirit head in the next illustration

-i've been in that kind of situation before and each time i just tried parting my spirit head from my body head. it never worked, so this time i spun my spirit self so my feet were going away from my body and at the point where my spirit head hit my stomach i finally fell out of it.




-i'll try to make an animated gif and upload it later, but for now that's the best i can do ^_^;

-so anyway, i fell through my body, going down and i felt the change from dream to ap. it was kinda neat, it felt partly like i was passing through a veil of sorts, and partly like i was casting off something that once either was cloaked upon me or was kind of inside of me.

-got the dweller on the threshold kind of fear but calmed myself and decided that no matter what happened i'd keep going till i had some proof (for myself, not others) that i really was ap'ing
-also, as i was still falling, i heard my alarm clock go off and immediatly thought 2 things: 1) did i set my alarm clock? i don't remember doing so. 2) meh, it's only an alarm clock, it's not important, i'd rather be ap'ing anyway. so i ignored it and kept falling. (for later reference, my alarm clock did not go off, i was just hearing things that weren't there)

-i fell a short distance "between planes" (dreamscape and ap, if you will) i guess before ending up in a place that was large and empty. it felt like a vast plane and it felt like it was probably the astral, so that was proof enough for me that i was ap'ing, at least for this first go, so i snapped myself back to my body (the feeling of the dweller on the threshold fear was still with my but was very little, but i still didn't want to deal with anything like that just yet. i just wanted to check out the plane for the first time)
-i was only there for a brief time but it seems like the control of the astral body in the astral realm seems very intuitive

-snapped back to body, three things to note: 1) got some weird sort of half sight while my astral was trying to realign with my physical, and i saw some greyness areas about the room and upon myself, they didn't seem like they were beings, just energy/astralmatter or something like that
2) my body was starting to go into sleep paralysis mode so i broke that by forcing first my arm to move, then by sitting up
3) while the weird sight was going on it seemed like my astral body was still trying to integrate itself in my physical body, very cool feeling [Cheesy]

-as i wrote this down on paper just after i got up, i realized i was till feeing in my heart the exact fear that i was feeling regarding the dweller on the threshold (not the exact kind of fear, but the exact fear). this seems to indicate, that for me at least, the dweller on the threshold is indeed my own fears which means i'll (hopefully, if i don't spend all day on irc [:I]) be spending some time later today meditating on those fears and seeing if i can ease them here.

so, that was what i'd written (only slightly editted) when i first woke up after the ap. it was neat Smiley

thanks for listening to my ramblings ^_^


edit: nerts, well the pic was working at one point, but now i guess i have to link to a page instead :/ .

(the green is my spirit, the black is my body, the darker green flack near the end is that stuff i was talking about which i "shed off" or whatever.) thanks for pointing that out, blackstream.
6  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / HAPPY HOLIDAYS EVERYONE! on: December 23, 2003, 03:03:29
a merry christmas, happy yuletide, happy hannuka (sp?), a fun winter solstice, or a joyous whatever-special-event-you-might-be-celebrating-right-around-now to all! [8D]

7  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / predator or hoax? on: December 07, 2003, 22:16:06
i got this message in my email and i don't know whether it's true or not, but unlike the many virus warnings and whatnot i do get through my mail, this one could be potentially dangerous. does anyone else have anymore information on it (ie, is it real or just another fake warning)?

> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: [edited out]
> >To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
> >Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 9:13 PM
> >Subject: Warning From Police, Please Read!!
> >
> >
> > Subject: Warning
> >
> > From Police, Please Read!!
> >
> > Warning from Police...take time to read .
> > Please read this very carefully then send it out to all the people online
>that you know. Something like this is nothing to take casually. This is
>something you do want to pay attention to. If a person with the screen name
> > of Slavemaster contacts you, do not reply. Do not talk to this person, do
>not answer any of his/her instant messages or email.
> > Whoever this person may be is a suspect for murder in the death of 56
>women (so far) contacted through the internet.
> > Please send this to all the women on your buddy list and ask them to pass
>this on as well. This screen name was seen on Yahoo, AOL, and Excite so far.
> > This is not a joke. Please send this to men too, just in case they have
>wives, daughters, mothers, etc. Send to every one you know.
> > Ladies, this is serious. If you receive something from Slavemaster,
>contact your local police department.
> > Sue Colwell
> > Office Manager
> > Sexual Assault/Rape Crisis Centre of Peel
> > Phone: (905) 273-3337
> > Fax: (905) 273-3336
> > Email:

8  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / hey on: September 07, 2003, 21:05:25
hopefully the emotions have died down since my last "goodbye" post. i'm not here to stay, just to clear up a few things from when i left.

first off, celeste. i did not mean you when i said "for those who are just attacking me". i meant to list your name in with those who were being nice, but i forgot. however i tried to word each part so that there would be some people who would be left out of either category (i'm a firm believer in the idea that just because someone isn't with me doesn't mean they are against me). and this goes for anyone who wasn't merely attacking me but who thought i was lumping them in with that group.

secondly, since it was the topic of such hotness, the demon summoning didn't even work. i tried to sense into the astral (yes, through the physical) to try and find some demons (and i found a couple) but while i did have the strength to pass a message to them, i didn't have the strength to force either of them to come to me spiritually or physically. and neither of them seemed interested enough to try on their own.

so i then tried to summon up baal, i got a good sense of him very quickly, but after i bad mouthed him a couple of times and he got a bit angry i realized that he was stronger than i was at the time, so when he turned his ire from me (cause apparently he had something else to do) i didn't try to invoke his attention again.

there, for those who thought i was being foolish: are you happy now that i've described it for you? are you happy that i failed? i may be proud sometimes but i'm not stupid. i know my limits but i also know my strength, and i know that i was strong enough even at the time to fight a weak demon if i had to. but also like i said i REALLY just wanted to try talking to one (and yes i do also realize that that is completely contradictory to my having insulted baal. i figured if i insulted him i'd get a "finer" grasp on his being to try and pull him towards me. and it worked, except as i said he was stronger than i was at the time).

after that i tried to physically open a door to the astral (and i really don't care if anyone here thinks that's incredibly stupid) but i can't seem to sense a distinction between the border of this realm and the astral realm "close" enough (i sensed a gap between them and i didn't have anywhere near the energy it would take to force that gap to close together), so that didn't work either.

i'm just updating those who cared. and btw, i did that about a week after the final post in that thread. it's just taken this long for my own feelings to soothe enough for me to be polite. i'm sorry if i hurt any of the people who did care about what was happening.

9  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Demons for you, Demons for me, Demons for everyone on: May 30, 2003, 21:38:12
just wait and see [|)].

amazing list and descriptions of demons, for those who wish to look into it.

i'm thinking of trying my hand at summoning sometime soon, and i'd like for it to be a demon [}:)] because i hate demons [}:)]. [Cheesy] i just hope it works [|)].

10  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Hey timeless, you can come back now... on: May 24, 2003, 22:44:16
i've been talking to tom, and he said that since he's left someone should post a message saying that you could come back now.

i don't know what's happened between the two of you, and i'm not going to ask. i'm just relaying this for tom.

11  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / A New Day is Dawning on the Astral Pulse on: May 21, 2003, 01:30:55
as some of the senior members have left, and others are either about to leave or seriously thinking about leaving, it is now up to those who are coming after us to carry on the integrity and spirituality of this forum. this is a very difficult task to do, but it is none-the-less one that is very important.

i think it is important that people should read over the oldest posts, on the very last pages of each forum, because they provide much insight and knowledge that hasn't been seen by the newer users here. i read through all the oldest posts and i was amazed at the great knowledge and understanding that is being ignored by the new users who don't bother to read them. they answer many questions that many people have, and many other questions that many don't even think to have.

as well, i think it is important that the users here go out into the world and seek out other things that supply one with understanding, and then share that understanding here on these forums. and it is just as important that this understanding and wisdom be accepted and talked about by memebers rather than being rebuked or ridiculed off hand. it is much easier to live the life of ignorance, but it is beneficial to live the life of one who thinks even though there are hardships.

so it is up to those who are the next wave of senior users to remember the atmosphere of these boards, the friendship and the general helpfullness, and to continue doing these things, showing to others what this board is really about, what YOU are really about. as those who you looked up to gave you their knowledge and wisdom, now you must turn around and show wisdom and knowledge to those who look up to you.

this will be a difficult task, but a real spiritual journey is never easy because otherwise it wouldn't be worth anything.

i wish you good luck and that much grace and wisdom abound. and i leave you with a final thought, the phrase that my gaming group used to say to the new gamer who seemed to endlessly get himself killed: "Stop. Think. Act." it helped him a lot, and it helped me a lot, and so i hope it will help you all a lot as well.

12  Integral Philosophy / Welcome to Integral Philosophy! / Limited Scope on: May 13, 2003, 20:53:01
well, i guess this is as close to the right forum as i can get with this topic. (if i'm wrong, please feel free to move it  Smiley).
Another Problem with Humans: our limited scope of reality.

A "normal" person lives in a "normal" world: magic doesn't happen, God is merely a belief, and the "impossible" really is impossible.

From what i've seen on a few forums and a few sites, it would seem that many people who practice metaphysics have the same view as normal people: they seem to think that anything which is too far beyond their own abilities is impossible for anyone to achieve.

And this is a grave fault of those metaphysicists since they should know better than that. Normal people have only ever lived in a world where they have never witnessed such things, but metaphysicists have witnessed things that normal people have declared to be non-existant.

Too many times i've seen metaphysicists criticize "normal" people because the normal person won't believe what they've never witnessed, and then turn around and criticize another metaphysicist because don't believe that the other metaphysicist because they've never witnessed that which the other metaphysicist claims to be able to do. For instance, one guy might claim to be able to spin the pin-wheel and maybe even push a pencil across a desk but if someone else claims to be able to teleport, then the first person immediatly denies that such a thing is possible.

"Weaker" metaphysicists live in a world that is a step beyond what "normal" people live in, so why is it so impossible that other metaphysicists may live in a world that is a step beyond what the weaker metaphysicists do?

Now, of course there are going to be those who make stuff up or delude themself, but it is just as delusional to believe that others CAN'T do what they claim to do just because it's beyond your own abilities.

So instead it is better to be a sceptic rather than a disbeliever. a sceptic will search for the truth, even if it is not what they expect or want to believe, while disbelievers will continually offer up alternative explainations as excuses, even if such explainations are ever sillier than that which they don't want to believe.

In this way, disbelievers lie to themself and are not after any truth at all; they merely wish to continue living in their own little simple world where they don't have to do much thinking. The sceptic on the other hand, spends most of his/her life thinking, trying to discover the ever elusive truth to the world. It is much more difficult to be a sceptic than it is to be a disbeliever, but at least you won't merely be deluding yourself.
any thoughts or opinions?
13  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Talking To Americans (hosted by Rick Mercier) on: April 30, 2003, 01:49:03
anybody see it last night? it was just WAY to cool to not post about[Cheesy] (sorry to all the americans on the forums) (don't feel like you have to read it all at once)

basically Rick Mercier (of "This Hour has 22 Minutes") went around america asking americans stupid questions and getting them to say silly things about Canada. FOR INSTANCE, he convinced Govenor Tom Bilsak from Iowa that canada runs on a 20 hr clock and would soon be switching to the "american standard" 24 hr clock, and even got the govenor to say "Congradulations Canada on getting the new 24 hour clock."

Other things he's done:

He got a bunch of americans to sing Canada's National Anthem (or rather, what he SAID was Canada's national anthem)
Oh Canada, A great big empty land,
We look to america, for a helping hand,
with bannock bread, and caribou eggs,
the true north big and cold (brrr),
oh canada, we are on top,
we're close to ... the north pole,
fermez la bouche, mangez poutine,
can-a-da, a lovely winter dream,
oh canada, la la la la,

He's gotten random americans to say various "Congradulation, Canada, ..." which i'll list some of:
"for getting a McDonalds"
"for getting 800 miles of paved roads"
"on becoming a part of North America" (more on this one later)
Govenor of Arkansas: "on preserving your national igloo"
"for legalizing insulin"
"on getting FM radio"
"on getting a volunteer fire station"
"on getting grade nine"
"opening a university"
"getting a second area code"
"getting one million people"
"allowing the irish to vote"

Group of Americans: "Hello Canada! our eskimo neighbors to the south."

And now for some of those questions i mentioned: (Q - rick is talking, not neccessarily asking a question, just talking. A - answer to something rick said)
Q: You think Taft, Nixon, and Mulrooney are not prime examples of the best american presidents?
A: i think there's others that show more american spirit
(for those who don't know, mulrooney is/was a canadian politician)

Q: Do you think that america should be bombing bouchard?
a: Yes

q: Should nato be bombinb bouchard?
a: yes   (bouchard is another canadian politician)

q: do you think america should line up the ground troops and send them into gille de sep? (another politician)
a: yes, america should line up the ground troops.
q: and send them into gille de sep?
a: yes

q: do you think that america should be bombing saskatchewan? (talking about how russia had invaded chetnia and saskatchewan.)
a: absolutely

(same topic) q: what about ground forces? do you think ground forces should be sent into saskatchewan? that might be safer.
a: if that's what they're gonna have to do, then that's what they're gonna have to do.

another cool thing that rick did was to create petitions for stupid things like the following petition that he got people from Columbia University NYC to sign:
"... given that 2001 has been declared the year of the senior citizen, we demand that the government of canada discourage the tradition of placing senior citizens on northern ice flows and leaving them to perish."
q: so what are you studying again? (to a person who wrote their name on the petition)
a: history.
q: right, very good.
q: (to another person who signed the petition) and you're a prof here?
a: yes
q: how many years?
a: nine
q: you like it?
a: yeah.

q: in the year 2000, we'll (canadians) be part of North America. Is that a good idea?
a: i don't know.

at harvard university:
q: are you a student here at harvard?
a: yes i am
q: and what are you studying?
a: biology
q: well that's good, this is sort of a biological question. We're down here getting student reactions to the fact that the canadian government has decided to resume the calgary seal hunt. What's your reaction to that?
a: i'm against that. actually i'm interested in conservation biology.
q: are you a professor here at harvard?
a: yes
q: well, we're down here getting reactions to the fact that the canadian government has decided to resume the saskatchewan seal hunt (notice that before it was calgary seal hunt Tongue). What do you think of that?
a: well i think it's bad, myself. i'd like to see that stopped.
q: so we might see you up there some day visiting the seals on the ice flows?
a: who knows. good luck.

q: actually, did you hear that the prime minister Tim Horton just got a double double?
a: i don't know what a double double is.
q: that means he has the support of both sides of the congress in canada.
a: wow.
q: what are you studying?
a: politics
(for those who don't know, Tim Horton is a donut shop. i don't know what the double double REALLY is though.)
student: "I'm studying political accounting here at Princeton and cangradulations to Prime Minister Horton on his double double."

q: canada's new prime minister, Jean Chretien, is one of the few black leaders in the G7. He's canadian african.
a: finally, the industrialized nations are getting to the point where they can elect a minority and it's nice that it's happening in our hemisphere.
(prime minister jean chretien is actually french canadian, so he's white.)

q: so do you think there's any point in canada having a navy if we don't have access to an ocean?
a: i don't know. i really don't know. i'd stick to the air, then, if you didn't have water.

and finally, the best part of the whole show (in my opinion.) it starts off with rick talking to some americans, and then he gets a group of americans to all say the response at the same time.
q: as you know in the states, they're going to bring in a dollar coin. now in canada, we've had a dollar coin for about seven years, and about two years ago we brought in a two dollar coin and now we're introducing a five dollar coin. our one dollar coin is called the looney, our two dollar coin is called the toonie (it's REAL name is the dubloon, but everyone calls it a toonie anyways).... (goes to a different group of people)
... now we're about to introduce the five dollar coin, which has a maple leaf on it and a wooden texture so people have taken to calling this coind the woody.
a: Congradulations, Canada, on getting your first woody!

TOO FRIGGIN GOOD!!! the show is awesome.

if you want more i can get you more. let me know what you think Cheesy


(there, much better, eh? [8D])
14  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Well, this is it. on: April 19, 2003, 21:53:49
My last post for a while [Cheesy]. (ha, fooled some of you didn't i? you thought i meant something about a war right? [Tongue])

i purposefully held off on replying to many threads as of late, just so that i could try to make squeek's and panabelle's heads explode as they wonder why i don't go for the 1000 post mark (this should be my 999th post). [8D]

but really, i had much fun on this board. you guys have helped me out over the past year or so, helped me find a better spiritual path that i had been on, and for that i will be eternally grateful. thank you everyone (those who are here today, and those who were here when i first came here) [Smiley].

unfortunately, i feel a deep need to look within myself and begin being alone again. you have provided me with many answers to questions i had, but now i must find answers to questions that you can't provide.

so goodbye everyone, and good luck on your own paths [|)]. hopefully we will all grow to be our best [^] [|)].

(i'll still check in and read what people have posted, but i'm going to hold off on replying[Smiley])

15  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / I borrowed "The Exorcist" from the school lib... on: April 05, 2003, 02:33:45
rary, and i'm gonna watch it tonight (never seen it before) just before i go to bed [}:)]. i hope it's at least half as scary as people make it out to be [Cheesy].

i'll tell you what i think of it tommorrow. [|)]

16  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / 19 hours ago (approx.).... on: March 29, 2003, 21:22:37
i was on the net and doing stuff when all of a sudden someone/thing pushed against the back of my mind with a fairly decent amount of force. i have no idea who it was, but i'm not mad; i'm just wondering if someone here did it.  Smiley

i'll be asking on other boards too, but since i have no clue as to who did it, i thought i'd try here as well.

ok, here's what happened: i was looking at someone's profile (though not on these forums) and all of a sudden i felt a force pushing on the back of my mind so strongly that i actually moved my head forward in response - it was like someone had actually put their physical hand on the back of my head and pushed.

i was curious as to what was going on, maybe someone was using me as an experiment for pinging (Tongue) so i opened my mind to the force, which promptly enveloped my mind.

now, the strange thing about this force was that i couldn't get a feel for its origin. normally when someone or something metaphysical happens near/to me i can get a feel for whether the originator of the effect is a physical being or not, and i can usually get a sense of their being and the being's intentions. but all i felt of this force was that some one/thing was directing it (so it wasn't just some random creation doing something off the wall): no sense of who/what was behind it or what the intentions of the energy was.

but i let it enter my mind anyways (i have defenses in place to **** over any unwanted intruders, so i have nothing to worry about there. especially since i already knew how strong the "attack" was) and allowed it to do whatever it wanted, which it didn't seem to do anything. i didn't sense it trying to delve into my mind, i didn't sense it trying to set up some sort of mental program, i didn't sense it trying to attack me; it's like the purpose of it was just to get into my mind, with no real motive behind it and no purpose to it after that.

as well, even as it was just sitting in my mind i started asking it who it was, but got no answer. again, i didn't feel like it was ignoring me, but merely that the "interface" of it wouldn't allow communication through it.

so not getting a response, i took off my hat figuring that my hat might be blocking out the person's skills in using telepathy or whatever. and i did feel an immediate effect at that point - as though the hat was hindering it a bit from doing the nothing that it was doing (sounds silly, but that's what it felt like. ok, how about "from just sitting around". there, happy?  Wink).

well, soon enough i got sick of it being there and gently showed it the door even as it began dissipating.

and that's what happened. if you are the one who did it, please let me know. thanks.  Smiley . like i said i'm not mad. you didn't attack me, and if you were just using me as a "testing ground" then i guess i'm letting you know that it worked (and good job too.).  Grin

17  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Well, here's some food for thought. on: March 21, 2003, 01:58:58
i'm guessing the US wouldn't want this kinda info to get out. i'll only add the first short section on the website since i'm not totally sure if this is the only article on the site or if the other things are separate.

10th March, 2003
by Fintan Dunne, Editor

The Pentagon has threatened to fire on the satellite uplink positions of independent journalists in Iraq, according to veteran BBC war correspondent, Kate Adie. In an interview with Irish radio, Ms. Adie said that questioned about the consequences of such potentially fatal actions, a senior Pentagon officer had said: "Who cares.. ..They've been warned."

According to Ms. Adie, who twelve years ago covered the last Gulf War, the Pentagon attitude is: "entirely hostile to the the free spread of information."

"I am enormously pessimistic of the chance of decent on-the-spot reporting, as the war occurs," she told Irish national broadcaster, Tom McGurk on the RTE1 Radio "Sunday Show."

Ms. Adie made the startling revelations during a discussion of media freedom issues in the likely upcoming war in Iraq. She also warned that the Pentagon is vetting journalists according to their stance on the war, and intends to take control of US journalists' satellite equipment --in order to control access to the airwaves.

Another guest on the show, war author Phillip Knightley, reported that the Pentagon has also threatened they: "may find it necessary to bomb areas in which war correspondents are attempting to report from the Iraqi side."

Transcript follows below.

there's a lot more on the site, go check it out.

18  Metaphysics / Welcome to Metaphysics! / Yeah! I'm starting to see auras. on: March 20, 2003, 01:33:55
just the general outline beyond their bodies. at first it was meshing in with the infamous "after-image", making it an interesting viewing indeed. but i separated that out and started seeing the thing that outlined the peoples as they moved. no color yet.

getting it to work in just a few seconds too. yeah! Smiley next i'm going for energy seeing. i used to have a small bit of that, and i want it again. [|)] only better! [Cheesy]


(phfft. like any of you care. [Tongue]. j/k)
19  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Well, it looks like my training officially ... on: March 15, 2003, 21:17:36
begins today.

this morning, as i was on my way to the mall, my left shoulder started giving me the pain it used to give me while i trained. then the pain went away again when i stopped training, and now it's back: YEAH!!! [^]... oh wait. that's bad, isn't it? [Tongue]

actually i don't mind the pain so much. i use it as a sort of method to guage my progress in my training.

20  Integral Philosophy / Welcome to Integral Philosophy! / Opening Up on: March 11, 2003, 21:36:54
Well, since no one really flamed me for my last one, i guess i'll post another one. a long time ago, while i was searching for info about the metaphysical on the internet, i'd constantly come across explainations of how to achieve the abilities that said that you just have to "open up" to them.

before i started getting my own experiences, i was like "yeah, whatever, how do you open up?", but after i started having experiences, and indeed the more experiences i've had the more i realize it is true, i started to think "yeah, you do just open up. but that doesn't help other people so i'm gonna try to figure out another way of explaining it." except i hadn't been able to figure out that way before (mostly cause i'd never bothered to think about it since i wasn't exactly teaching a thousand students).

but i think i have figured out a way of describing it, so please let me know what you think:

first, go into your memory and remember a time when you had a big secret that you didn't want many people to know, but a secret that you shared with at least one person.

do you remember how closed your heart felt, how constricted and guarded, before your started revealing the secret? and then how you felt completely open with the person, or at least felt a bit more trusting of them? as though you had a wall seperating your heart from them before you shared the secret, but at the end it felt like the wall was either gone or had a hole in it? or something like that?

that's because you "opened up" to that person. see, most people instinctively defend their hearts from being hurt by other people, but let down their defenses around the people they trust.

the lowering of the defenses, and placing your trust in them, is the "opening up". and to open yourself up to your abilities (though, of course, you won't just up and become some sort of powerful wizard or something). you must "open yourself up" to the world around you, lower your defenses, and trust that the world won't hurt you.

only after your defenses have been lowered, and you've become relaxed and trusting like this, can the parts of your being really "open up" and start interacting with the world in their own manner (ie the mind interacting with mental things, the spirit with spiritual things, etc).

BUT you must NOT merely take a passive stance after you begin trusting. you must still actively seek your development; you can't just think "ok world, come and do something to me", you must think "ok world, let's work together on this. i'll do stuff to you and i'll let you do back stuff to me, and new experiences will happen from there."

and finally, you must trust your senses.

21  Integral Philosophy / Welcome to Integral Philosophy! / The "Goal" on: March 10, 2003, 18:38:31
I was thinking in bed last night, as is my custom, and as a bit of wisdom came to me, i decided to write it down. I do not normally write down what i understand, but if you guys like this one, perhaps i can write more. What do you think?
You should never reach for the goal. If your teacher tells you something that you later learn to be a bit of a lie, do not look down upon them with disrespect. It is the teacher's job to make sure the student keeps their focus on the path to the goal.

If the student's eyes are constantly focused on the goal, rather than the path, the student will take shortcuts, will hurry through lessons, and will quickly forget that which they have learned in their fanatical desire to attain the goal. The student will not be worthy of the goal.

So the student should not focus on the goal, as the wise teacher knows, but should focus on the path. Each step should be taken in turn, fully understood. Each previous step should be reflected upon, and the student must understand how the previous step led to the current step, and how the current step will lead to the next step. The next step should be carefully considered before being taken, and be taken in patience and understanding.

After every step has been taken, after every lesson has been learned, only then will you truly attain the goal that the path has led you to.
And just for you auraseer, i'll change my sig.
22  Metaphysics / Welcome to Metaphysics! / My Visions on: March 07, 2003, 21:43:29
ah, the thing that really started it all off in my life. or rather, the thingS, since there was five of them.

well, i guess i'll start of with Vision 0.5: well this one wasn't really a vision (hence the 0.5), but ... well, i'll just talk about it and you can see for yourself. i was walking home one day when i saw three kids who were riding on bicycles. now, i daydream a lot so i figured i could turn this into a daydream (yeah, i daydream a LOT). i started thinking about the future and that monsters would somehow wander the earth, with humans wanting to destroy them (yeah, my daydreams are weird too). so i started daydreaming that i could teach those kids that i just saw how to fight against them. in this daydream i was only a teacher, and though i may be powerful enough to actually fight the monsters, i left that to others. these kids to be specific. my daydream went on to do something with them saving the day (wouldn't be much of a daydream if there wasn't a day to save, right?), and so the final part of the daydream was them standing magnificently in triumph and with me standing in the background and off to the side looking at them with pride.

this is where the weird thing happens. as the kids (well, they aren't kids anymore, but you know what i mean) are standing in triumph and i'm off to the side, i lose control of my daydream. it zooms into the image of me and i become a shadow image of what i just was. then i turn and leave, just take a step and disappear, with a distinct feeling that i have to be somewhere else, somewhere important, as though my fight (the real fight) was just beginning now.

and that's when the daydream ended and i was once again in the real world. i was totally weirded out by this, so i shook my head and heaved a great sigh of confusion. i tried to make some sense of it, but i couldn't so i just stored it in my memory and ignored it.

i think it's might be important to discuss one other thing though. at the time when this "vision 0.5" occured some of my other daydreams gave me the same feeling of them being "kind of what would happen in my future". like another daydream where i imagined that i was much older and had a kid, and i trained the kid in the martial arts and in energy use, and those two things just felt so "this kind of thing is like the things that will happen in my future" that it creeped me out again.

Vision 1 (don't worry, there not all this long): a few months later, i was thinking about the future - earlier in the day i had been daydreaming about some possibilities of what the future might be like - when i suddenly looked upward into the sky (about 45 degrees up) and stopped thinking. then something like a movie started playing in my eyesight. all i could do was watch as it played out.

well i don't remember which part it started out with, but i think it started off by showing me my three possible futures. the first possibility showed the side of a building, really high up off the ground (the "camera" was high up off the ground, not the building), zooming into the building slowly while communicating to me that in this possibility i chose to disbelieve in the existance of the supernatural, in God, in the energy that i was just getting used to feeling, etc. still zooming in, a single window was highlighted, and i could just barely make out the sense that there was someone in it. at this point, the vision communicated to me that i would be very successful in my chosen career, that i would be rich, more or less happy with my life, and i may even have a girlfriend or wife; a pretty good life for anyone, really. and the vision kept zooming in and i could make out a person in that window, and i knew it was supposed to be me, and he was sitting at a desk, working at a computer, oblivious to the world around him. then, as the vision was still about 20 ft away from him, he turned and looked out the window at the same time that the vision started zooming in quicker. he looked and whatever he saw shocked him because he got a look of complete terror on his face. when the vision was only about 5 ft from the window, i got a strong sense that the zooming effect was caused because the vision was looking out of the eyes of a monster of some sort and that it was about to crash into the window. at the moment of the impact, the feeling of my life shattered along with the window, signifying to me that the vision-me just died. i, the real me, was shaken and frightened by that.

the second possibility started immediatly after the first one ended. the second one was more peaceful, more happy. it quickly erased the fear i felt and replaced it with tranquility, a sense of serenity. the vision was that of a farm. it panned across the ground and came upon a house. i didn't see anyone, nor did i feel anyone's presence, but the vision again communicated to me. this time, i would choose to believe in the things that i could have chosen to disbelieve; God, the supernatural, the energy, etc. but this time i had found love in my life, true love, and that was what i lived for, my love was who i lived for and with. my life was incredibly good, while not rich in money, i was blessed greatly by love in my life. i sensed that i might have a child or two, and that it would be a loving family too. it would be like the life that most people don't believe could happen. but then, that peace was disturbed, though not broken. i sensed things coming towards my house, my life. it's not that these "things" were coming for me, but that they were spreading out upon the entire earth and my wife and i were "just another target for their destruction". in the vision, i saw myself, finally, standing between my loved one(s) and the approaching "things", ready to fight with my life to protect my family. the vision imparted to me that the vision-me would be able to fight most of them off, but eventually my love and i would still parish. but it also imparted that we would not be heartbroken over it, after all we had found love and we truly had found the happiness that most people can only talk about.

the third possibility started now. this one was very vague and generalized, and i don't remember it very clearly. something about -> this time i chose to live for God, and to do that which He had chosen for me to do. that it wouldn't be easy, that it wouldn't be pretty, that there wouldn't be much reward in it on earth, and that i would very likely not be able to change the way things will be anyway. but i would get a great reward for it in heaven, after it was over, whatever the result. and that was it. very vague.

but the second part of "Vision 1" was about the events leading up to ... "something". according to the vision, in the future an event would occur that had never occured before. this event would take mankind by surprise, but the vision wasn't clear as to whether the event would be something like a discovery by humankind, or if it would be something like an alien invasion; just that something "new" would happen. and because of this event, society would have to make a decision as to how they would react to this event: to either accept it and its consequences and possibilites, or to reject it or fight to prevent if from occuring or from continuing to occur. if society accepted it, which the vision let me know was the most probable outcome as things are now (or rather, as things were back when the vision was imparted to me), then it would force a smaller group of people to have to make the decision again. this small group had more control over whether the event would be allowed to continue, or would be prevented or fought against. something like a group of scientists who knew the FULL ramifications, both good and bad, of the event, or like a group of politicians who had final say as to what would happen. again, the vision imparted that eventhough this decision was less "set in stone" for its outcome, it would still most likely be to accept the event. otherwise, if either group - society or the small group - rejected the event, then nothing bad would happen. and finally, the vision let me know that if the event was accepted, something bad would happen.

and that was the end of the first vision. though i still don't clearly remember which part truly came first. but anyway, this vision kind of creeped me out again (very creepy time for me). and i thought about it a lot. i tried my best to go over every detail again and again, trying to figure out exactly what each thing meant. but it didn't get me anywhere since the vision was completely self-evident; no hidden or distorted meanings. i also thought about which of those futures i would rather have. i immediately chose to never try to get the first possibility, which meant that i had to make the firm decision to believe that the supernatural, etc, was all most likely real (keeping reasonable doubt because i won't just blindly believe something without good proof). trying to decide between the second and third possible futures was a much harder decision, and i don't think i really decided at that time. i think i tentatively decided that unless i fell in love and truly wanted to give up doing God's will and just live my own life, then i would do what God wanted me to do.

Vision 2: again it was a few months until the next vision. this time, i was lost in thought about something when once again i just suddenly looked up into the sky, at the same angle (just want to point out that i wasn't looking straight up. there really is no special significance to the angle. no, really: there isn't... really.), and just stopped thinking. once again, something like a movie started playing in my eyesight. this one was something a lot more like some of my daydreams. me and some friends were out somewhere, a ways into the future. i couldn't make out the identities of any of my friends, they were more like shadow images of people, and they just felt like they were my friends. actually, i felt that i would meet most of them later in life, that i didn't know them now. also, i couldn't tell if there was four or five of them, but it certainly seemed like there were either four of five of us. well anyway, my memory of this vision is really poor, but in the vision i remember that we were fighting creatures, or rather beings since they kind of seemed sentient. but they were also really strong compared to normal humanity. but my friends and i were stronger; not a lot stronger, but enough such that we were going to easily win that fight.

actually, i think the most important things about this vision weren't what i was being shown, but rather what i could sense of the world in the vision. somehow i could sense beyond the constrictions of the scene of the movie, could feel out into the general events of the world at the time. i could sense that the fights that my friends and my vision-self were getting into were merely a forerunner to a war that was about to occur. i remember clearly that it was like we were fighting beings in pre-war times that were leading up to a war. i could sense that fights like these were taking place all over north america, i couldn't sense the rest of the world, and that normal humans were having a really hard time fighting back against them, even when using advanced technology.

and that was all that happened in that vision. it seems like the entire point of this second vision was to let me know that i wouldn't be fighting alone and to let me know that what we would be fighting would be strong.

Vision 3: a while later (i think it was a few months between each vision, but i don't remember clearly for the rest of them. probably doesn't matter though.), i had the next vision, same things happened: stopped thinking, looked up into the sky, movie playing. this one i remember very little about. more fighting, this time in the full-blown war. humanity was loosing, our group was doing fairly well. humanity had gathered itself into large armies, led by powerful leaders but were still loosing. we were growing stronger, but we fought stronger and stronger enemies. ie our enemies were becoming as strong as us. before one-on-one fights were heavily stacked in our favour, but in this vision one-on-one fights were about evenly matched. and all the while we were purposefully heading towards the "center" of the enemy, so that we could try to take out their most powerful force (forces?) soon. by the way, in the visions my friends and i have been fighting close-combat, no ranged weapons, and i don't think we even had ANY weapons actually; we may have just been fighting with only our bodies (hands, feet, etc).

but i think the importance of this vision was that humanity was loosing, even though my friends and i weren't, that time was a very small commodity at this point. as well, as the enemies we were fighting were stronger and stronger than previous ones, we had to rely more and more on fighting as a group rather than as individuals; we had to rely upon each other and help each other.

Vision 4: the main fight. This was The Vision of the series. my friends and i were flying (something we certainly hadn't been doing in the previous visions) and fighting a gigantic "thing". in the vision, it was standing beside buildings and was about the same size as them. i don't know if that was meant as something literal, or something figuritive but it is a scary example either way! in this one, it took all of us to fight it and we were on the loosing end. it was in this vision that i VERY strongly felt that the enemies were demons, whereas in the previous visions i couldn't discern what the enemies were at all. however, it still wasn't explicitly "stated" in the vision that the enemies were demons.

but anyway, while "we" were fighting the thing, i could feel that we were outmatched and that we were probably going to loose. we were giving it our all, trying out damndest to destroy this thing, not even caring if we died after this fight, as long as we destroyed it. we still couldn't possibly win. but then i felt something odd, the vision kind of centered on one of my friends: a girl, and i'm surprised i could sense her gender since i couldn't sense much of anything about my friends in any of the visions, but it was definately a girl. i somehow knew that she was the key to our victory, that somehow we had to focus our power on her and she would be used as a focal point for our combined power and that hopefully this would allow us to win.

then the vision ended. there was no ending to the fight, it was a cliff-hanger, with the vision giving me a strong indication that the ending would be decided when we got there in real life.

Vision 5: when this one came upon me it took me by surprise because i had thought that the last one was the, uh, last one. but anyway. this one started out with ... nothing. i got the impression of nothing. not that i didn't get an impression, but that i got the impression of "NOTHING". ie, nothing-ness. no image, no sensations, no communication between the vision and me, just nothing. then i saw the earth, like it was from orbit or something. i could see half of the earth, which finally brought me some relief, until i tried sensing what was happening on the earth. nothing. nothing was happening. nothing moved, nothing fought, nothing celebrated, nothing mourned, just nothing. as though all were dead.

this was because all WERE dead; i sensed no life on the planet. none. this scared me greatly, and i started begging God, whom i was sure was giving me these visions, to let someone live, to let someone survive, to let humanity win, to just please do something so that not everyone was dead. i was begging God out of fear, out of shear terror that humanity would be entirely obliterated.

and i guess He heard me, because i felt a slight "twitch" in the vision (which i don't recall having told the people whom i've previously told about these visions), and suddenly someone stood up on the planet. i sensed life. oh, you so wouldn't believe the relief that i felt upon sensing that person stand up, upon sensing that someone lived. i started thanking God for changing such a frightening vision and then others, too, started standing up. i was even more relieved, filled with hope. and i waited, watched to see how many would stand up, hoping that many would. it turned out that only a small amount stood up; the size of a small city. but they were still something, someone lived, and for that, even only that, it would be worth fighting for. the people who stood up started doing things, things that contributed to their chances of survival. like building homes from the destruction, gathering everyone together so they could all help each other out, gathering food and water, scavenging whatever they could that would help them survive, etc. it would not be an easy life for them, but at least they lived.

i couldn't possibly tell if myself or any of my friends were in there but it didn't matter, even if we died it would be ok since that was what we had expected, but at least someone lived; our efforts were not in vain.

at the end of this vision, i clearly heard something tell me that the outcome of the war depended solely upon who won, and that if i wanted people to live, then i would have to fight as hard as i possibly could to make sure it happens.

and that was the last vision i had. again, i was shaken, and as i put them all together, rerunning them through my head from first to last, it only shook my up more and more. i couldn't possibly know whether this war would ever come to pass, but i did realize that if it did, i would need to be ready for it. even if it didn't come to pass the things that i would get out of being ready for a war, all the skills, the strenght, and the abilities, would be extremely helpful in letting me live an easy life.

so that is what i decided to do. i decided to train as if the war was coming, to do that which God obviously wanted me to do. i thought it would be nice to fall in love and live such a great life, but i also wouldn't want it to end in such a bad way, so i couldn't possibly choose that life.

and so i trained. it was a mistake of mine, however, to allow myself to become fanatical in my training, for being that fanatic about it caused a lot of problems for me. i allowed my goal to become different from what God wanted me to do; my goal became to gather as much power as i possibly could, so that i could do my absolute best to win. such foolishness (even with good intentions) took me close to death and insanity on many occasions, so i am very glad that God has opened my eyes to it and allowed me to try again, from the beginning. and i'm glad that i can start all over again while keeping the lessons i've learned so that i hope i can do a better job this time around.

"It is important to remember, that when fighting monsters, one does not become a monster themself." -(i forget who wrote this quote)


(wow, it's one-thirty in the morning. this only took me two-and-a-half hours straight to write)
23  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / I've started my journal... on: February 22, 2003, 02:09:02
on astral society's journal page:

i have posted three things so far: an introduction into how I got started in the metaphysical, a bit more about how i got more into learning how to feel and use chi, and finally one about chi itself. the third one is really long and isn't done yet (because i'm getting brain burn), but i'll get back to it within the next few days.

in the future i am planning on posting stuff about all the nifty things i can do, that i have experienced, or that i have theorized on. energy combat is going to be a main one, cause i just LOVE combat so much. won't go into why though. but i will also post on other topics like cloaking, the fine art of manipulating people, uncommon uses for energy that i've gotten so used to doing that i don't even think of it anymore (like using energy to allow me to fine-tune my physical movements to an almost supernatural ability), and even in-depth looks behind how most energy systems work (as far as i have figured out).

and if you want, please suggest something you'd like to hear about and i'll see if i can make a post on it. i'd rather not do anything on religion or beliefs, but if you can convince me to then i'll try my best to put down on paper everything i know about it: but i can't promise you'll like it.

oh, and uh... i go by the psuedonym b0b on the as forums, so find me there if you want to  Smiley (that's also why you'll be looking at "b0b's journals" (b-ZERO-b))  Smiley

24  Metaphysics / Welcome to Metaphysics! / We need volunteers to conduct a test, please. on: February 13, 2003, 18:04:15
in the ki ball pictures thread, hashpuppet said that he the only way for auraseer to prove that he could use ki was for auraseer to send him energy over aim.

of course, a skeptic can deny even reality if they truly wanted to, so i have come up with an experiment to reduce the ability of anyone to be able to say that something was faked. below is a copy and paste of the experiment from the ki ball pictures thread, where i first posted it:

perfect experiment.

first, auraseer (first party) can send people (second party) energy. the exact time of the sending would be known to the first party and to third party (such as myself, or someone not involved in the experiment in any other way) but not to the second. the second party would be told an approximate time in between which the energy would be sent, ie between 5pm and 6pm at the first party's timezone.

the second party can respond to the third party and tell the third party what they, the second party, felt or experienced at the time of sending energy and the exact time the second party felt the energy being sent.

then, a more experienced energy sender, such as tom or another volunteer, (fourth party) would send energy to the second party. the exact time of the second sending would be known only to the fourth party and the third party. an approximate time where the second party could expect the second sending to occur would be told to the second party. at such a time that the second party feels the energy being sent they record the time, experience, and feelings and send them to the third party.

it is important that there be no communication between the first party or the fourth party and the second party. this would ensure, to a reasonable faith, the integrity of the experiment. the third party would then post the results in the board, without consulting any other parties beforehand, for all to read and judge for themselves.

it is also important that the fourth party be approved by the majority of the people interested in the experiment, and that the fourth party have a good deal of experience in sending energy. how much experience should be decided by the majority of the people interested in the experiment.

however, in order to conduct this experiment, we need a few volunteers. the first party is going to be auraseer, since he has agreed to it. the second party will first be either hashpuppet or panabelle; hashpuppet wanted the proof, but panabelle claimed the right to be the first to recieve. the decision should be up to the two of them.

next, we also need a third party, who needs no energy experience what-so-ever, but needs to be fair and impartial. as i said in the ki ball pictures thread, i am unavailable for this part, so could someone else please volunteer for this? thanks.

then we need a fourth party (for now, the applicant), who needs to be experienced in energy sending. the applicant should be someone who has sent a minimum amount, that would be decided by the majority of the people who are interested in this experiment, or sendings, and i suggest the minimum amount should be around 15. the sendings of the applicant must also have been recieved clearly by the intended reciever, so that the experience of the sender can be verified.

then a vote to decide who should be the fourth party, out of all possible applicants, would be made by the people on this board. the voting should be open for a set amount of time, such as a day or two, and each person who wishes to vote can only post up to one (1) vote.

if there are other details that may need to be addressed, please post them, along with any possible solutions if you can figure out any possible solutions.

thank you to everyone.

25  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / hey! guess what i did... on: February 12, 2003, 01:07:04
yes this is in the astral chat room because... I'm posting it: it's gonna get off topic [Wink].

i was just up in the photocopy room at the school photocopying stuff for the registrar's office (i work at the school as well as attend it) and i figured i could spend a bit of time trying to oobp.

so i sat down in a chair, made my back straight, took off my hat (does anyone else find that wearing a ball cap inhibits the range on their mental perceptions?) and took off my glasses (for comfort) and tried to retreat into my mind for a bit. i retreated fairly well. so eventually (well, within a minute anyway) i started pushing my energy around my body and then i formed a ball of energy at my base chakra (the groin) and opened up my spirit to complete energy usage, then pushed energy from my base all the way to my head without stopping at any chakras or doing anything else. it took like 2 seconds for me to get the energy all the way up and i felt my self becoming far more in touch with my spirit.

but my energy kinda started going above my skull a bit so, remembering an old topic where people were talking about a chakra above the head, i decided to see what would happen if i pushed my energy upward, so i did. i started feeling "light headed" and i started percieving the room about me in a different way than normal (i couldn't actually see things, but i could still kinda feel them vaguely).

so i pushed my energy even further up, until it was stretching into the vast unknown. then i felt my spirit starting to rise a bit out of my head, but my continual perception of my hands being in contact with one another kept me "grounded" in my body. i eventually pulled myself back in completely and forced any side effects (such as disorientation) out of my mind, spirit, and body, and i made my spirit and my energy come completely back in synch with my body and mind.

then i thought, hm.... i should go post this and see if others could use this method, maybe, to oobp or to see what people's comments would be. so here i am [Cheesy] posting my story.

"What do you think, sirs?" -Joel from Mystery Science Theater 3000

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