I hit reply, and then sat here thinking of what to say... 

First off, I don't approve of physical abuse -- whether it's committed by a man or woman. As greggkroodsma (I'll call you gregg for short) posted, we are only hearing one side of the story. And recounting these experiences are NEVER unbiased, no matter how much we try to make them. This isn't a slam to you Zarklon -- this is purely a human fact. We can only relate what we perceive to have happened.

However, with that said, I have no issue with a man restraining a woman who is being physically violent with him (and I'm a woman). As far as I'm concerned, if you are going to hit, don't be surprised if someone hits back. Of course, the stronger the individual, the more restraint they need to learn in responding. (Always a catch, isn't there.) But this isn't the key issue. You're question is basically about how to love again.

This scares me because I know I love this girl

With all due respect, I read that part of your post and went "huh?"

You are out of 2-year, tenuous relationship for only 3 weeks and you *know* you are in love again?!

Maybe the first thing to do is evaluate your definition of love. My sense is what you are feeling is the combination of joy and tenderness you didn't have in your last relationship. This new person is nice and good, as far as you're concerned, and you can't think of why you shouldn't lover her, yet you don't have this energy you equate with love surrounding her. Maybe it's because you aren't in love with her?

I'm not trying to sound trite or blaise, but I don't see how anyone can establish a deep, soul reaching feeling of love for someone else in 3 weeks time. Especially if they are just out of a long-term, bad relationship. And this appears to be your dilemma. Why aren't you feeling the love your head tells you you should feel? The problem is your head doesn't determine love, that's all done by your heart. It tells your brain what's what in this area.

Personally, I think you're moving way too fast. I wouldn't even be dating again for at least 6 months if it were me (actually if it were me, it would probably be more like a year). I think you've been hurt on a number of levels in your last relationship. Before you are capable of feeling that kind of love for someone else, you need to find it within yourself. Only then can you share that with others. And 3 weeks is a blink of the eye when it comes to time. Of course, this could also be a generational difference. The word 'love' doesn't appear to mean the same thing to younger people as it does to me and a lot of my friend.

Of course, this suggestion comes from a much older person (  ), but I simply don't think you are ready to make any decision like this right now. Regardless of how wonderful this new girl is, tell her the truth -- You aren't ready for another relationship right now. If she's 'the one', she'll understand and wait for you. If not, then you have your answer. It may sound harsh, but it's the truth -- or I should say it's the truth based on what I've seen over the years.

Hope this helps!

Sometimes you will get dream overlays. This happens when your awareness during the experience isn't clear and sharp. Then images from your imagination start to creep in. Another possibility is that you were actually talking to your friend while he was OBE as well. If he was aware at the time, he may recall the incident. Depending on his views, you may want to ask him the next time you see him OBE if he knows he's OBE and his body is asleep elsewhere. If he does, chances are he'll remember the experience upon waking and the two of you can share your experiences. However, if he seems confused by what you are saying, he's probably not aware enough to carry the experience back to waking consciousness.

One of the things I've noticed in these instances is what the person looks like. When I'm OBE, my surroundings always appear to be semi-translucent shades of white, even the people. However, with the people, most of them tend to look light grey, like cigarette smoke. They can carry on a conversation at the time, but they aren't conscious of what they are doing at the time. And they have no memory of the experience upon waking. Other times, the people look bright and clear. And this, it would seem, is also a reflection of their awareness. Because these people tend to be aware, at least to some extant, of the experience and can carry it back to waking consciousness. So next time you're 'out' and see your friend. See what he looks like (dull and grey or bright and clear). Also ask him specifically about OBE and see what his response is.

You forgot the most common option to do this: suicide.

What you are asking is how to die, which is what leaving your body permanently would be. Why do you want to do this?

As for your 3 ideas, I don't think any of them will work -- of course, I've never tried it nor do I have any desire to do so. However, I think 1 & 3 are essentially the same thing. My understanding from many theories I've read is that your subconscious is your link to your higher self. And your higher self knows why you are here at this time. Given that, unless you opted to a physical act to end your life, I don't think your higher self will intervene to help you with this. I also have never heard of a spirit taking over a body and essentially 'booting out' the individual born with it. So I don't think that will work either.

Perhaps, instead of looking at ways to leave permanently, you focus on experiencing an OBE and then, while out, ask for a spirit guide. When they come, you can ask them these questions. But I would expect their answers would be to turn the tables on you and ask why you want to do that. My experience with guides is that they know more than they tell, and that you tend to be on the 'need to know' side of the equation. Meaning they may not give you the answers you want, but they may help you identify your need to do so and work through that so that you can live the life you came here to do. I liken them to spiritual psychologosts in some aspects. 

These are just my thoughts, and I don't necessarily subscribe to some of the definitions, however they are common so I used them. However, I would urge you to look deeply at what you want to do and why.   

Welcome to the Pulse!

I THINK that the way it works is basically that when you sleep, your logic-ness also sleeps. I'm not quite sure why. Somehow, during those experiments, my logic side was kept more awake, so it didn't fall asleep so easily.

Excellent observation!! And you're quite right. This is called MA/BA -- Mind Awake/Body Asleep. You essentially want to get to the point, as you've concluded, where you are fully conscious, but your body is asleep. This 'frees your mind' so to speak. You are then able to to have an OBE. This is what you've described above, the feeling of leaving your body and walking through walls. And yes, you are right about fear. Actually fear and excitement are both the most common reasons people are abruptly pulled back. Any type of strong emotion will do that, but those two are the most common.

Different techniquest work for different people. I would suggest checking out the Astral FAQ  and Permanent Astral Topics sections of this forum. You can find a bunch of posts on definitions, theories and techniques in both of those sections.

Another technique you may want to try is phasing. Given your ability to reach certain states while awake, you may find that easier. It's the method I personally prefer, but everyone's different. In this approach, you don't feel any bodily seperation. It's purely a seperation/expansion/re-focus of consciousness. Below is a link to Frank's post on phasing in the Astral FAQ section. This is one of the best intro's to this approach:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_the_astral_faq/what_is_phasing_and_how_can_i_do_it-t17413.0.html

Also, I think your inability to reach this state without using the machines is simply a mental block. It's something that you can overcome, you just need to realize (and fully believe) that you could do it before the machines and you can certainly do it now, without them. And you can.

Let us know if you have any questions, we're happy to help!

Can you give me any tips on how to leave this imagery and explore elsewhere?

Remember, this is all thought-driven. When I phase to other areas from within a dream, I simply think of it. So if I wanted to visit a friend, I focus solely on them. After a few moments, I perceive the surroundings dropping away from me slightly and everything whizzing past in a blur. Then a few moments later everything stabilizes. When I look around the person on whom I was focusing is nearby.

If it's a place you want to visit, it's the same procedure. Just focus on the place to the exclusion of all else.

The last part of the process is critical however -- "focus to the exclusion of all else." When the surroundings start whipping past, it's not uncommon to glance at them to see what it is. As soon as you do, you've lost your focus and you'll 'drop' wherever it was you looked at. This is where concentration is critical. It's not a big deal if it happens. Simply re-focus your thoughts and do it  again. But sometimes when it happens, especially if you're just starting out, you can get frustrated or confused by what happened and then you wake up. So, I find it's best to avoid that if possible.

This is just how I do it, I'm sure there are many other methods out there.

The problem with drugs is abuse, not the drug itself. The reason we blame the drug is because we're too immature to accept responsibility for our own self-inflicted bad habits.

I agree. Our society has pathetically become an enabler. Nothing is ever your fault. The blame always lay somewhere else. Self-control is a serious issue today. I think a large part of that is the sensory-overloaded environment in which we live, bundled with the lack of responsibility inherent in our culture.  What happened to the days when people held to the saying "the buck stops here?"

Of course, all of this exists in our current age of 'immediate gratification'. People have become so used to getting what they want, when they want it, they don't have an appreciation for patience and waiting. They don't really understand what it means to work at something to achieve it. There's a sense of satisfaction in doing something well and worthwhile that is lacking in most people's lives.

Sorry, I digress a bit off-topic. Many will probably take issue with this, and that's fine.These are only my opinions so you are free to agree or disagree.

As for alcohol and tobacoo, I actually consider then to be drugs as well. For the most part, I simply don't take anything. I've never done drugs, never smoked and my alcohol intake is limited to a glass of wine with dinner a few times/year. If I need anything, I use vitamins and herbs (feverfew is wonderful for migraines by the way, and a bunch of vitamin C taken at the first signs of a cold tend to eliminate the cold).

I think natural substances need the most attention. I suppose the radical idea I'm advocating here is that these plants haven't simply evolved to keep the soil from eroding.

As I mentioned in my last post, I think 'serious-minded' individuals who need to 'jump-start' their experiences turn to drugs. And I can understand their rationale. Some people need that bit of help. I only caution on becoming reliant on the help, because I think that road leads to dependence and abuse. If you need to use it, do it once or twice, but then work on achieving results without them. I, personally, value independence. Anytime I feel the need to say or think "man, I need..." whatever it is, that raises a flag in my mind. At that point, I simply stop using whatever it is. Hence, I haven't had any caffeine in over 4 years.

Regardless, as I've mentioned, you are not alone here on this viewpoint. Many people advocate the use of drugs for these purposes. I don't chime in vary often because I think I tend to be in the minority, but as we came to the topic in a round-about way, I went ahead with my views on this topic.

If you take drugs and they work for you, that's great (and I mean that). Just make sure they don't ruin what you've accomplished would be my only warning.

Correct. Awareness isn't a linear progression. It fluctuates randomly in stops and starts. One can have a fully lucid experience, wake up and then try again only to flail in a dream unable to 'wake up' mentally.

The only consistent thing I've noticed is that the quality, quantity and duration of these experiences improves greatly not only with meditation, but with a continual practice of mindfullness. Even if you only try it once/day, this effort pays off when phasing or OBE'ing.

Years of meditation and spiritual development seem a big ask for something that's supposed to be 'natural'.

Ah, but isn't that exactly what we as a society have done to make it unnatural? We spend most, if not all, of our lives so engrossed in the outside world and the immediate gratification that's available to us everywhere we turn, that we lose our ability to do this one simple thing. In that case, is it really so much to ask for a few measly years to de-program ourselves? 

hehe....I used the word 'drugs' because I got tired of writing out psychodelics and hallucinegens. But I agree that I don't like it for ambiguity reasons. I had a fleeting thought that would cause problems, but was tired and wanted to get my thoughts down quickly. So concede everything related to that word! 

Well aware of the history of peyote and other similar substances used the world over. I think there are several differences between what was used and the way it was used by these people and what happened in the 60's and 70's. I think the native people use the drug (using the word purely for brevity here, nothing more) in a structured, disciplined setting. There is guidance in it's use. Their are precautions to make sure it is done safely. Again, I've never done this, it's just what I understand based on what I've read.

The hippies, however, used it more as a form of escapism. Yes, there was interest in 'freeing the mind' but it was done in conditions that were more geared to physical/instant gratification. I think it was a situation of the blind leading the blind. I think that's when the abuse of the drugs became mainstream, but this is just a thought of mine -- nothing I read about.

Regardless of the history of these uses throughout history, I have always been of the opinion that they not only are not necessary to achieve the goals for which they are used, but I think they are counterproductive to it. I think anything that muddles the mind makes it difficult to impossible to experience things with a clear awareness. And that, for me, is the goal of all of this. Again, these are just my thoughts on it and many here disagree. I know many use/have used drugs to 'jump start' their experiences. I simply think that this is a short-cut to take along the path and dependending upon how much 'jump-starting' you do, could actually hamper your ability to do this without drugs.  All of this is my opinion, of course.   

I don't know if I like all these percentages of consciousness 

How can it be quantified?

-AM

That's just it. You can't scientifically quantify it like this. However, the concept, based on my experience, is correct. The 'concept' being that the awareness you achieve during these experiences is a variable. And that you can usually categorize each experiences based on the level of lucidity you achieve within each one.

Their relationship with the plants and unique knowledge or understanding of nature stemmed down from visions. The visionary experiences were provided by natural hallucinegens. This is where the religion began.

I had to do some research on this for a school project years and years ago, so it is quite possible I've forgotten this. But I honestly don't remember ever reading a link between witchcraft and hallucinegens. My understanding is that witchcraft was formed from pagan beliefs worshipping the earth and nature. I'll concede that hallucinegens were probably used to some extent. Many native peoples the world over have done similar things. However, I've never read that as being the core of their practice or that it was done with any type of regularity.

I did a few quick searches this morning after reading your post (several on Encyclopedia Brittanica's site) and not a single mention was made regarding drugs. Quite a bit was written about herbs, potions, amulets, etc, which most people associate to it.

As for gaining their knowledge, I would expect that they learned what the herbs did through trial and error as well as learning from others. Just like scientists create new medicines through trial and error. They build on what they know and try new stuff out to see what works and how it works. Again, I could be wrong, but that was what I understood.

Can you tell me where you read this? I'm a bit curious now.

[Awakened_Mind wrote:]

My original post was a brief one-liner, and obviously wasn't very clear. Now that I read what Awakened_Mind and MS wrote, we are all saying the same thing (I think), but simply getting hung up on word definitions (fact vs truth).

Awakened_Mind wrote:

'Truth' is synonymus with 'real'. We don't necessarily know what is true and/or real. So begins how subjectivity. What we consider to be real and/or true.

Musterseed wrote:

There is such a thing as truth. The universe is made or evolved or a bit of both, but it is here so it came to be by some process.....that is the truth, even if it is only a fiction in our mind.......still that then is the truth.

If I understand you both, we are saying the same thing. Let me give you 'my' definitions (this will illustrate where I'm coming from, I think). Truth and reality are individual perceptions. Thus they vary with the individual. A fact is an objective, concrete thing or idea that truths and realities are molded around.

I'll try and give a religous example since this post is about religion.

We are all having experiences in a world in which we interact with one another. I consider that a fact. Surrounding this fact are many theories. And to MS's point, many people consider their theories to be truth.

To some, the truth is that this world is all that there is. This, to them, is beyond belief because they cannot 'prove' anything else exists. And what scientific proof does exist, implies that anything beyond physical experiences (those occurring in this world) are illusions fabricated by the mind and thus not real. So their truth is that we have one life and that is all that exists. That is the 'truth.'

Others have experiences beyond physical reality and know that it is real. They know the truth of what they experience. This is not belief, this is a deep knowing. To them it is clearly true. I lump a majority of the new age books into this category. People do some reading/research into metaphysics, form some concepts around something and then have experiences that they see as justifiying those concepts. They have now discovered The Truth.

Others find truth in words spoken or written by other people and belief so deeply that it becomes true for them. A good example would be to look at any radical fundamentalist, regardless of religion. They know the truth, beyond a shadow of a doubt. They can prove their truth, even if most people disagree with their proof.

Awakened_Mind wrote:

I've always liked the idea that truth is not something that evades, but which we are evolving toward.

Exactly. That's what I meant when I said "It becomes valid if you 'outgrow' that truth." I meant that as we evolve, our perception of what is true/real changes. I do agree that I think at the core, there is one truth. And that is the one to which we gravitate as we cast aside the old truths that no longer fit us. Whether that 'core truth' is even remotely close to any theories currently floating around is a seperate issue altogether. For this reason, I interpret the word 'truth' as it is used today to be a variable that changes with each person's perception. 

Does that make sense? 

Witchcraft was actually women practicing with the use of psychedelic substances.

Umm..not quite. Witchcraft is typically lumped into two categories, polarities of each other. It was a practice of using/worshipping nature in terms of herbs and plants as well as astronomical/seasonal changes.

The one group practiced for the benefit of others (as in midwives, healers, etc). The other group was supposed to use their knowledge for malevent ends (demons, hexes and so forth). Energy use was also attributed to their practices if I remember correctly, albeit not to the extent that yoga, tai chi or other energy based systems use.

The use of psychedelic substances may have been among their practice, but that was only one small aspect of it.

What if you discard a truth because you don't like it?

It becomes valid if you 'outgrown' that truth. Truth and fact are different. I think truth is subjective and therefore open to change depending upon the individual.

I moved this topic here, as it didn't really fit in Astral Consciousness.

This topic has been moved to Welcome to Astral Chat!.

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/index.php?topic=26815.0