There is the argument that sending anything to europe to drill through the ice may be unwise as it could dirty those alien waters with earthling microbes.
So maybe its a good thing, for now. Same thing going on in aahh around the arctic I think, there is a big underwater lake which has not seen normal atmosphere for hundreds of thousands of years, and people are still scratching their heads as to how to get into it without taking modern organisms with them. Tricky problem.
Although I doubt very much that this was on Georgy-boys mind when he decided we need to get (back?) to the moon....he just wants another big thing to distract the american people to try and recover his disastrous image and poll ratings. Trying to show he has vision and intelligence <chuckle-chuckle..>

I have seen some strange town names - Pratts Bottom stands out quite vividly in my memory  

Wow, cool.
I am curious, how do these visions differ from normal mental imagery? Is it their clarity, or do they also have a different "feel" to them?

Rob

Quickly

This in no way means it was seeded by intelligent life. And it no way explains how such intelligent life was first created. Was their planet seeded too? And the aliens which seeded their planet had their planet seeded who had their planet seeded etc? This simply moves the creation of life to another location with and throws no life on the creation process what so ever. Pye seems to argue because he thinks early earth was a pretty inhospitable place, he finds it hard to believe anything could develop there. Then he questions why the things which were the precursors of life were so tough (because they evolved in an extremely hostile environment perhaps?)

I agree with all this completely. However, it is still useful to consider these things, since the question of how life started on earth may be different to the question of how life started in the universe as a whole - they dont have to have the same answer. And for now, the only one we have any hope at all of addressing is the former - how here?
And yes, of course the first life on earth will have been tough, but thats no reason to think it could and indeed should not have evolved by now. But yeah, it being tough is no reason to promote ID.
Honestly, I dont put any more credit in ID theory than others. Pyes article was simply useful to me as it provided an alternative viewpoint, and some good attacks on evolutionary theory.

Will read your articles when I too have more time.

Rob

MJ, I finally got round to reading that discussion you linked to. Sorry but I really dont see how it "debunks" Pye at all - basically, all they say is that evolutionary theory has extended beyond Darwinism and into contemplating new interesting models. As well as giving him credit on the genetic point Pye makes, at the start of their discussion. If the points Pye makes are facts, then they still stand strong. Like pointing out the cambrian explosion (why so much life appearing so suddenly?), the other explosions of life after major disasters, the extra chromosone pair in human DNA compared with other primates, the fact that the same extremophile organisms exist today (sure there are more and different ones, but that we have exactly the same one today as well which have not evolved?) etc etc. I dont think the article you posted addresses any of these or other points Pye made. Would you mind filling me in on what arguments have been placed against these facts, if thats what they are?
And, errr, do me a favour and dont use the word "debunked". I hate that word!!!  


Just another point u made:

There is a very big difference in moving a few hundred miles and then producing a machine which can travel trillions of trillions of miles through a hostile environment.
There is also the question of why they found Earth, the amount of estimated planets, and the amount of stars in our galaxy alone is simply staggering. The amount of galaxies is simply impossible to comprehend.
Unless space is literally overflowing with space faring races (which we would have seen evidence of now), how (in the fifteen billion years of this universes age – although we should take 5-10 billion years off to give stars time to form, nova and produce the materials needed for planets, then the time for intelligence to develop and then produce space faring vehicles) in such a short space of time, and a window of literally a hundred thousand years or so, did these aliens find our planet out of the countless others, in countless solar systems, in countless galaxies?
I just think the chances of such a thing, out of so many potential exploration targets, in such a minutely narrow window of time is too staggeringly remote to even contemplate. Add to this we see no evidence of terraforming machines, no radio waves from alien civilisations polluting space, no DNA evidence for them having tampered with us, no evidence in all the samples we’ve taken to gauge the atmosphere though earths history.
While there could be aliens out there, I just don’t see anything which could remotely suggest they’ve been here, let alone tampered with us.

Ok lets see:
-The earth is estimated to be 4 billion years old, and the universe 15 billion (though I believe this figure is being pushed further back all the time). Now, life on earth appeared 2 billion years ago, and humans are supposed to have evolved primarily in the last 1 million years (generous). So, from primate to us, in 1/2000'th the time since life appeared. And we have come up with our major technological advances, again to be generous, in the last 1000 years, which is again 1/1000th the time of the evolutionary period. Thats TINY!! And 1000 years is only 1/2,000,000th of the evolutionary time scale since life first appeared. Give our civilisation another 1000 years (another irrelvantly small fraction) and I see no reason why we could not become an inter-galactic civilisation. Looking at these sort of numbers, there is no reason another intelligent civilisation could have appeared, been given a few tens of thousands of years to complete advanced technology, and be flying around the galaxy today. They only need the slightest edge, in evolutionary timescale terms, to get ahead of us. Infact, there is no reason to think that another planet could not have formed and evolved a couple of billions of years before us - our estimates for the universe forming at at best weak estimates, 2 billion in 15 billion IMO is a realistic error, even given our currently knowledge which is changing all the time (as you said "give 5-10 bilions years for the stars to form - but 5 billions years is quite a lot of error!!!!!!!! More than enough for out purposes). However, IMO its not really necessary to argue this point:
- From that point to the greater timescale of the universe, bing bang theory is increasingly getting into seriously hot water. Red shift, if you consider the evidence coming in (well, evidence which has in actuality been around years and years now, just mainstream doesnt like considering it, big bang is taught in schools, and the former ideas are not being allowed an easy death due to how much science has invested in them, but now we have better telescopes, which are showing some rather telling anomalies which are becoming increasingly hard to ignore), has been well shown to be caused by something other than relative velocities, and indeed all our models for how space works are coming under heavy heavy strain. Gravity is looker weirder and weirder by the day, for instance, and the electric theory of the universe is gaining more and more ground - either of which would, in themselves, necessitate some redical re-evaluations of current theories. Erm I am sure there are other direct reasons to take big bang theory from its current dogmatic-truth status, but cant remember them. So anyway our age of the universe is based on red shift, which many forward thinking scientists realise is plain dodgy (red shifts occuring in discrete jumps, rather than continuous scales, finding heavily red shifted stars in binary systems with non-red shifted stars, quasars being right next to stars and galaxies with no red shift in them, there's more I cant remember but thats a taster). Given that, our timescale for the universe is thus entirely fallacious. Again, there is therefore no reason why another civilisation could have got ahead of us by billions of years, not just thousands.
- Imagine, your civilisation has reached a technological peak. You have had aeons to perfect technology that allows you to completely master the physical universe. You have perfected your own physical form to give yourself effective immortality, and have thousand even millions of years to play with. What is there to do next? The only thing left, create!! You start creating myriads of new life forms, on new planets - life is, after all, the most complex mechanism in the known universe, and certainly one of the most interesting to study. And heck, sure there are a lot of planets in the sky, but you have an eternity to play with, and your civilisation is already vast, probably spread over many times many solar systems. You keep monitoring there planets you've seeded, probably leaving equipment behind to keep a watch over your creations, maybe returning every few thousands or millions of years to see whats going on and make tweaks here and there.
- The technological barriers. Every time a scientists says something is impossible, new inventions and experiments prove these silly statements wrong. If you'd have described to the average joe one or a few hundred years ago the state of technology today, they would have laughed at you. If you'd described it to the intelligencia of those times, they'd have declared you insane. This is just one reason I have no doubt that we will become an inter-stellar civilisation, if we survive long enough without killing ourselves first. I mean, look at what we have done in the last 100, or even last 50 years!! We've come so far. Antigravity is in the works, zero point is waiting in the wings, there is so much more for us to explore.
- UFO's - if you havent thoroughly researched this field, you really should!! Since you say you dont think there are aliens here now, my guess is you have not looked into this too deeply, you might even rely on societal opinions to come to your conclusions on this. But the evidence that there are advanced craft around is utterly mountainous! Society is in denial of this at the moment, for the most part, which is a real real shame. I have videos stored on my computer and have seen many more, police videos, military videos, civilian videos, nasa videos, photos, descriptions from credible witnesses, books by highly credible people, government documents by the truckload and we know there's much more they keep hidden. Aye, I am in no doubt about UFO's, which display very advanced technology, and even sometimes more life like characteristics.

So yeah, I dont think we should discount any theory yet, not even ID

 

Rob

He is trying to understand the world, therefore he'll be fine! As for the girl, I dunno about that. Either way, he'll learn something, so it's all good. I cant comment any further than that since I have never seen them together. Instincts are usually right, but he will find out in good time one way or another.
Good film  

Rob

Eh, dont worry yourself about it. Most people would probably say I think too much, but look at me I'm normal! <twitches>
Anyway, seriously, the example you gave  - how do you know he is not right? Thinking a lot can give you more insight, which is what will probably happen to him more and more in the long run, and eventually, if he does think too much, this is something he will notice.
Otherwise, maybe get him to be more introspective, perhaps by telling him to watch himself to see if he thinks that he is thinking too much.
My opinions, anyhow.

When you can see your own self clearly, you see its unfathomably vast. And then after a while you realise it this way because we are all part of the cosmic consciousness (God). This source is the stream that powers life, that makes us alive, but the "we" we see in every day life is usually just the tiniest tip of our true selves, boxed into personality, habits, and other learned processes, all supported by/supporting the unconscious mind
IMO
 
ps in other news, I am reading a book called "Strangers to Ourselves" at the moment and highly recommend it to anyone who wants to know more about the unconscious and conscious. Very good!

Interesting point Stookie, the media rarely covers all the necessary sides of an issue as important as this, although if their stats are right they speak for themselves

Leilah:

Better yet, Don't be a soldier untill youv'e read "Civil Disobedience" by Henry David Thoreau.

Dont know that one, will try to get a copy. Also good is "War is a Racket" by Brigadier General Smedley D. Butler.

Lol, no idea about the music, but that was cool!!!!!!!  :thumbsup:

Anyway, I was very relaxed, I say my body could have been alsleep, do you reckon I could have been in delta? How can you tell which state you are in?

A little unlikely!! Delta trance is very deep, and hard to get into. I am not sure I have ever been there, maybe bordering it a few times though..
More likely you were in alpha or theta. Each has its own characteristic symptoms with onset which you will learn to recognise. For instance, alpha your body might feel slightly heavy, but it wont be so so different to normal consciousness. Theta if feels much heavier, and you will notice other effects too. Such as the mind clearing even more of surface thoughts and kinda expanding, perhaps some visual type stuff (for me, its like my vision opens up behind closed eyelids, its weird), and you will be less aware of your body, its position, and sensation.
There is a lot of info on trance states on the net, suggest reading up on them in you want a better idea.

hope this helps

NickJW: Sleep paralysis and trance are different things.

Rob

MJ

I do not particularly subscribe to any theory of how life came to being, I dont think anyone has properly nailed the question yet, although I kinda see an alternative little known about explanation, involving the work of Reich, but wont go into that here. I could give some info if you like but thats not really why I am posting.

I really can't see how people can turn their backs on some of the greatest discoveries in our history of a species because it doesn't fit with their world view.

Such as?

I used to believe in evolution theory because that what I was taught and it seemed reasonable. But then I read just one article that made me change my mind on this, I think I found the right one, I strongly recommend you take a look it:

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/darwinism.1.html

Rob

[two of you]

Okey I is back. Quick comments:

Souljah: You have spoken of krishnamurti in a very positive light a few times now. Gotta say my opinion on his work differs somewhat - I bought one of his books ("The Book of Life") out of curiosity, but couldnt read it because I disagreed with so much.
(picks up book and opens at random - first thing I just read is "conflict of any kind - physical, psychological, intellectual - is a waste of energy". Good example. My own exporation of my own mind, psychology and, to no small extent, spirituality was kick started by my intense insecurities when I was younger (ie internal conflict), which it taught me sooo much. Then there are the technological advances, human closeness, and determination after the fact to make a better world and to not allow it to happen again that came from the World Wars. So my opinion is that you can often learn often at least as much from conflict as from its opposite   )
I am reminded of something I read once that said that as you progress up the spiritual levels, the Truth of things changes, so that at each level it looks completely different to the last. Maybe its just each to their own level and zone on that level. If so, then krishnamurti is much closed to yours and a long way from mine!!

Next thing to you:

just a little wider...just one more time.

You say you are an intuitive practitioner. Do you intuitively think that comments like this are going to help lead to a productive and positive outcome?
(btw I admit many of Nays comments to you have been far from perfect, but please try to refrain from using this as an excuse. And yes, I am far from perfect as well, and more than happy to admit it. I also usually try to clear up any mess this imperfection may cause).
Infact, I would like to ask the two of you to stop these vicious comments you are aiming at eachother. Nay, yes, getting things "off your chest" may help, but in the long run, those "things" will cause more "things" to be piled on souljahs chest, which she will then unload into these forums, and you both perpetuate a very nasty argument with eachother. So! I might suggest that in the short term holding back the angry and superior comments (which you *BOTH* are making) might, at least in Nays case, make you want to explode (which you can do, but try to aim the flak at a pillow or something similar!), but being polite and courteous will take the discussion in an upwards direction and, in the long term, stop you from getting so angry or whatever to begin with.
I mean, there are obviously things you can agree upon, is there no way you can focus on this and allow these agreements to lead to an agreeable tone, instead of getting emotional over what you disagree about and letting this dominate your posts? I'm not saying dont disagree, because I think its valuable to do so, just asking you to not take it so personally when you do so.
Take MJ for instance. He could have responded to my sharp pokey and, lets face it, somewhat odd, post to him, with something similar, angry or insulting, and it may be argued that he would have had a right to have done so. But he didn't, and we are now having a good positive discussion which, I think, we are both learning from - right MJ?


Anyhow...

MJ (lol, I called u MH before, oops):
I have enormous issues with the rejection of science by much of the spiritual community too.

Just a quick question really, and this has been something troubling me more than a lot of other stuff of late. If science isn’t adequately equipped to deal with much (which I can fully believe in its current state), why is a belief system bourn on nothing but personal belief equipped to do such a thing?

I am not sure it is entirely fair to reduce everything to personal belief, without understanding the reasons for holding those beliefs. For instance, your experiences of astral projection, you believe you can astral project, and to the average scientist this is all it would be, a deluded belief. But this is something you know science has difficulty even verifying the existence of at all (so far, although there have been some good experiments - you probably know them better than me since they involved monroe). So the issue becomes how spiritual belief is rooted in experience (1st, 2nd or 3rd hand, as you well pointed out), which is often of an intensely personal kind and/or non-repeatable, whereas scientific verification requires repeatable and measurable results. I also share your opinion that science will eventually explore other realms such as astral, and verify the existence of entities/spirits and etc, just that new instrumentation and approaches will have to be evolved first.
Its nice to see that this has already started, although that it has is a fact mostly unknown to people involved in spiritual pursuits. There have been some very good advances. From China, where they take investigating these things much more seriously, I have a lot of very good experiments saved on my computer done with a Qui-Gong master, in a Chinese university, showing the effect of his projecting Chi with intent onto various measuring apparatus. Very positive results on that theme.

Moving from this to a point you raised to me before:

The problem with parapsychological research to date is that it is very hard to produce under laboratory settings, and even hard to produce reliably. I agree there is masses of data there which suggest some amazing things are going on, but until it can be put into some form of objective framework it will remain on the fringes of science.

Do you mean by framework, an experimental framework (ie how to conduct experiments), or an intellectual framework of understanding (ie whats going on)?
As my above bit indicates, there are some good experimental frameworks evolving already. Added to this, are you familiar with the work of Rupert Sheldrake, or William Tiller and his IIED's I think he calls them? Some very good stuff there.
But as for an intellectual framework to put it in....tricky!! People relate it to quantum effects and etc, but you probably know this and the issues it runs into.

This in itself makes me questions such things i.e. similar experiences but very different view points, what part does belief play in this?

Yes, you are making me wonder too  

I used to be very much led by belief, and I went through a pretty traumatic time when I looked at my beliefs under a critical light and dropped a lot of them. I didn’t discount these beliefs totally, but I moved them from where I had stored them as ‘knowns’ to just possibilities.

Wow, gotta respect you for that!! Nice one.

Friends generally have similar view points, and if you discuss such matters, that could be a link to why your experiences are similar.
During these times with fear, did you have any other paralysis or projection episodes at all? And if so did they have neg elements or not?

Hmmm, first point, not really. I only really started discussing this with friends who had experiences of this kind, after I had been through everything I have been discussing with you here, and by that point they had also had "untainted" experiences from before we had even met, and continuing beyond this time. For instance, two friends, one had "night terrors" when much younger involving him becoming totally obsessively demented, and seeing snakes and spiders falling from the ceiling, writhing over the floor, etc (btw this obsessive quality of what I think are neg attacks like this leads me into the OCD type complex I think we can grow up with). Another friend has often woken up to see spiders crawling around his room. And you have had the spiders thing too. Which reminds me, I once had an experience where in a dream there was a nasty red and white snake in my lap, hissing at me. I was terrified and could barely move, then it bit me in the thigh, and I woke up with a stabbing pain where I had been "dream bitten" (to me, indicating more than a creation of the mind). So why snakes and spiders so much? My friend isnt scared of spiders, he is more the type who would carelessly pick them up, and there is a definite link to people seeing both these things at all ages, which kinda indicates my other friend when he was young was not just hallucinating spiders and snakes because he was afraid of them too. I am not afraid of snakes, either. I mean, there could be some "archetypal fears", but again, why only manifest visions of what the collective mind is afraid of? Why not the other archetypal stuff, negative or positive? And why such an overwhelming emphasis on snakes and spiders? To me, it indicates some level of objective reality, but if you have any other suggestions we have not covered yet I would love to hear them.
Second question you asked: When I was going to bed at night more afraid, I did not have any other paralysis, projection experiences, or shadow sightings.

When I started to consciously attempt to project (I would go to bed early and spend a few hours each night trying) my brother who slept on a bunk bed above me started to have paralysis and energy episodes and also some pretty scary projection experiences (things pulling his legs and he’d have to hold onto the ground to stop being pulled into the sky).
My brother has no interest with anything one could term spiritual or religious; he’s the archetypal sports buff who likes a drink. Before my projection attempts he never experienced anything like this to his memory, and since I moved out of home, he hasn’t experienced anything since.
One occasion he was in Cyprus, and he was continuing to have paralysis episodes which seemed to link up to times when I was either projecting or attempting to project.

That is really really REAALLY interesting!!!
I wonder, would you be prepared to try covering your body in scared symbols like I did, to see if it does anything? Let me know if you are interested and I will dig out the precise details.

Perhaps your Dads nightmare precipitated your neg experience, or your seeming neg experience caused your dads nightmare. I really don’t know.

Ooooh now I really had not considered the first option. Yup, loosens my beliefs a bit   .
I think it was the Celts who did not believe in the concepts of "right or wrong" like we do today, but instead saw everything on a line between "probably correct/yes" and "probably incorrect/no". I suppose this is true in life and even more so with respect to spiritual experiences. I mean, even if we have experienced something we may be able to say "I remember experiencing that" but drawing definite, absolute, conclusions from there is probably a bad idea, even if IMO it still is one of the most solid starting points.
I will endeavour to take this point of view more in the future.

I worry about saying too much or the wrong thing when I get carried away in a post. I’m not really out to disprove anything; I’ve had strange experiences too and am looking for answers. I think discussion from all view points is valuable and helpful .

You and me both......and on the final comment there <looks at shoes> you are entirely right.

And I take back what I said about nothing constructive coming from this, thanks for proving me wrong

 :hippy3:

Hahahahahaha!  damn!  You're good!  I feel guilty already..hehehehe.

Bwahahahahahaha I win!!  :woot:
Lol, it was not my intention to make u feel guilty though.

All kidding aside.. it is not healthy to hold in emotions that need to get out.  Yeah, yeah, I'm not saying it's a free for all and for you to cuss out every person that ticks you off....oh, wait, maybe I am..LOL!

LOL!!!
But hey, you are right. Although I dont always hold them in, I just release them in a way nobody else can see  :ninjahide: .

Before I even finished reading this I thought you were "thinking too much" about it.  So why is it a bad thing if others find your words worth hanging on?

Hey, that I can cope with - although the ego boost it gives does make me uncomfortable. Its more when I make neg suggestions and scare the living hell out of them that I feel bad for it!!!!!!

About reading my past posts... I was referring to two and half years ago..LOL.  I was a fountain that just wouldn't stop..  Oh, god...it's embarrassing now..all those personal details.  I've learned to hold my cards a little closer to my chest, well...as close as I can get to my ample bosom.  :peace:

TEEEeehehehehe I remember well!!!! But hey, you said it yourself, better out than in right?? And it was all good stuff, people are here are, in the vast majority of cases, mature enuff to handle it.....maybe even the stuff you told me in private (um, well maybe anyway         ).
And ample busoms....I like it  :yippee: Yey Nay has large breasts! I like you even more ROFL!!!

Rob

And now I really really REEEAAALLY have to go to bed!!!

Oh what the heck, its a good post u made and bearing a nice tone (thanks for that), I will answer a few of your direct q's  and some other points:

SO the above could have been dream images, hallucinations and a coincidence. How many times has your Dad had a bad dream he couldn’t remember? He could have bad dreams most nights, but forgot them (as you said he rarely remembers his dreams, and waking someone during REM does help recall), on the night in question he was awoken by you with the dream occurring so it stuck fresh in his mind. That is not outside the realms of plausibility surely?
 

But in that dream I was possessed - thats just too odd. And he was waking and going back to sleep all that night, not just when I had my experience, which is most unusual for it. Combined with the fact that my other experiences have knock on effects to him - I think its well beyond the realm of coincidence.

The reason the scientific community are incapable of considering the other options we are discussion is because there is not a single empirical fact to suggest such things are real. If there was, science would consider them.

...really? It took something like 7 years before the scientific community and free press accepted reality of manned flight, even with thousand of people witnessing the Wright brothers and their planes. I could give many times many examples of this, its something I have explored extensively, and the same attitudes are in place today as there were then. Eg huge amounts of data exist in the realms of parapsychology (psychism etc), sometimes with some very noteable figures championing it, yet this is not commonly accepted or discussed material.
Btw reams of data proving the existance of spirits and etc exists, although I admit its hard to find it sometimes.

Now your second use of logic, you now state most instances of night terrors are neg attacks. This is once again a belief and nothing more. If you have empirical evidence which can be verified independently and reproduced, please supply it, because we need things like that to prove either way the existence of negs.

OOhh that would take a while. Maybe some other time. But its more the collection of linking data that does it for me, rather than any one thing. Its not a firm belief of mine, more a working hypothesis.

I have talked many times on this forum about a form of sleep paralysis I have experienced hundreds of times.....Why add negs?

Curious I admit. IMO its again a logical link between interrelated sets of data. We will agree to differ. I might come back to this in a few days tho.

I was making a drink and all of a sudden I was hit by vibrations and very noticeable change in consciousness.

Bizzarre!! Very odd I admit. Except like I said, for me it was definately a different feeling/energy signature/etc to normal vibrations, and occured when I was searching for neg realted stuff. And while you might get vibrations and etc hitting regularly, for me its not common at all and takes a long time to get to an appropriate state for them.
Good points though.

I read scientific journals frequently,

Cool, same.

My sister is a trained Doctor, my girlfriend works in medicine and I have friends who are doctors too.
Are you trying to say that you cannot make yourself ill through belief or suggestion?

LOL OK, fair. I knew it was weak when I posted it, I really shouldn't have. Again though, to come back to the main point, its the fact that I was not expecting this and had no (conscious) knowledge of these symptoms thats the clincher for me, so I dont see how I could have induced them myself. Combined with the fact the syptoms were spot on with those prescribed in said article. There is more to this, again unrelated and half related topics I have read up on over the years, about energy links to events and things to physical traumas and injuries, but I wont go into all that here.

I agree it’s interesting that your Dad got ill at the same time. Where was he on holiday? Is it totally outside the realms of possibility it could have been a bug or something?
Even if there is no explanation (and you fail to use coincidence), the point I was making was that I see no need to attribute this to negs what-so-ever.

Yes, IMO its just too much for coincidence. Consider: Same symptoms, same timing, no bugs/etc came up in the tests done on him. Combined with the incident of his dream when I had that experience than night, and the totally unexpected rashes which happened that other time. The links between whats going on with me and happening with him are just too strong to be coincidence. And that this was a neg-links-removing exercise, as were the protective warding symbols I drew on myself, and the dream he had (neg related remember) were when I saw what I thought was a neg. Again, too many links drawing parellels to neg activity. Further, about the sympathetic response he had, I can only place my finger on one other incident even slightly like these three, which happened in my early childhood. So! The only times it has happened were when there were strong neg indicators. Too strong to dismiss, IMO.
Hmm, I am sure the above could be much clearer, but you get the idea.

Please quote where I said "oh well, you obviously remember it differently to what actually happened" because I have scanned my reply and can find nothing which even alludes to that. Putting words in my mouth and arguing with them is simply arguing with yourself.

hahaha funny! First post dude, near the start:

I’m not saying you lied, just that our beliefs colour our perceptions and memories – and strong beliefs affect our perception strongly.

My whole point in this is we either adhere to science or we throw it out of the window. If we adhere to it, and try and discover the reasons behind this phenomenon using its principles, we have a direction to go in.

Hhhmm, I adhere to scientific principles wherever possible but I am always on the lookout for other people (and yes myself) allowing belief etc etc filters to get in the way of this process, or just making bad science.

By attributing everything to negs, and denying scientific explanations for such phenomena, we are throwing science out of the window.

Science should include everything, the failure I see in this regard is its materialistic physical approach and belief of the vast majority of scientists to get in the way of applying scientific principles to otherworldly issues. So I dont think invoking negs necessarily means abandoning science, but more extending it in a way that most scientists cannot.

I have projected since childhood

Nice! I am jealous  

For example, I could ask you what the subconscious is, no doubt you can give me a dictionary definition or similar, but that is just words.

oOOoooh no I wouldn't dare! I would make suggestons of what I know through experience, then shrug and say "so much I dont know". "Man who believed his wife was a hat" book etc (sure u have read, great book!!).

Please point to the reasoning you mean. I’m not even going to reiterate my point again.
Where have I stated that a belief in negs makes one have daily or nightly neg attacks? I don’t see what this has to do with anything.

You implied my imagination created the experience. Yet it has only ever created neg like experiences, nothing else, nor has dream bleed created anything else. The same can be said of experiences by friends of mine. And if it was fear driven imagination created, then why when I was actually afraid did I not see more? For you to consider more than a question btw.
IMO even invoking archetypes about spiders in this area of discussion leaves big holes here.

To use your logic, if you went as far to sleep over running water (which implies you neg belief is much bigger than you are letting on) and you still saw a ‘green thing’. Surlely that proves it couldn’t have been a neg in your belief system (ie the running water should have stopped it). The fact you are willing to still believe it’s a neg, when belief defences you hold should have stopped it, says more about where you are coming from than I.

It was the similarity to other experiences I have mentioned that made me come to this conclusion, combined with the other things that happened at the time. Voices leading to green vision thing leading to paralysis/fear whacker.

I didn’t want to make this reply but you goaded me into it with attacks.

Oops, sorry! Seriously, I guess I was being out of line, sorry about that.

Anyway, your last post was of a high quality, thanks.

Rob