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Welcome, Guest. Please login or register. December 07, 2016, 12:35:32


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1  Astral Chat / Welcome to Members Introductions! / Re: Hello everyone from a physicist! on: November 30, 2016, 18:26:58
Good to see you made it on after the registration mixup! It is always nice having people of different viewpoints and background around.
2  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Re: Is there such a thing as a non-physical world? on: October 22, 2016, 04:38:25
Well, if a character has negative destructive thoughts they cant tune into a reality that has a "higher" if you will energy quality. That is the simplest example I can think of.

This does seem to happen. It is the old "like-states attract like-states" argument of metaphysics. But I guess the question I was asking earlier, is if there is some way to pin this effect to the concept of vibration (I don't think there is), or if the connection is mainly a constant metaphor in common use.
3  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Re: Is there such a thing as a non-physical world? on: October 22, 2016, 04:35:06
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My current understanding is that physical and non-physical is all one thing.

I think so too. It is all likely to be material in some form, or immaterial in some form. It is hard to explain how immaterial and material things would interact, in fact famously so.

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With respect to science, our society is very dependent (e.g., because everyone has a biological brain) upon the materialist arguments, so I quietly disengage those that are grounded to the physical earth when debate arises (e.g., those of us that know from experience will understand).

Yeah, the mind very much appears to be an immaterial thing, because from the vantage point of this world only, there is no explaining why it can exist. There is no obvious way to cross the ontological gap of the material world, with a known set of properties, and first person awareness, which doesn't seem in any way related to any of those known properties. But interestingly, even if the mind is immaterial from the vantage point of this world, it may be material from the vantage point of another, as other worlds are not bound necessarily by these same material laws and properties!

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I would not be too quick to draw up a bunch of laws or rules about the relationship between the physical and non-physical. The Universe has a lot of mystery built in purposely.

I agree, that from this vantage, very little can with certainty be learned about the other realities. But the question is, are there any self-evident truths, or very easily derived arguments about something we could deduce to be true of these other realities?
4  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Re: Is there such a thing as a non-physical world? on: October 22, 2016, 04:23:14
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If we forget about the terms "physical" and "non-physical" and call them all realities, things will get much simpler. Realities differ from one another by frequencies, thought responsiveness, stability, density,

I am familiar with the concepts of metaphysical "vibrating frequencies", and "density". I can't really make sense of them though... I wish I knew who originated these terms, since it would be easier to investigate the history of their usage. The concept of vibration of course applies fully to this physical existence, as everything is in constant pulsing motion, of some grade. But I am not convinced that frequency of motion corresponds to other realities... I have run into many assertsions that this is true, but haven't run into an argument for how we can know it to be true.

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The multiverse is very complex, and with our limitations here we can only speculate.

For sure. And isn't it a grand time speculating!  wink
5  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Re: Is there such a thing as a non-physical world? on: October 22, 2016, 04:13:55
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THis topic seems to reflect the philosophical discussion we know for ages, e.g. Descartes and his 'duality' (here's the material world - here's the spirit world and only few connections) vs. the ideas of idealism or monism.

Very much so. I tend to think one of the monisms is likely to be true. Either everything is immaterial, and materiality is an illusion, or everything is material. It is hard to grasp why there would be two cartesian substances.

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I do not think that what we call non-physical does have to have the same rules or any rules we know.


I would tend to agree. I think the laws of this physical are determined from above, and the next existence it is nested inside is not at all bound to those laws (but probably its own set).

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Our minds cannot grasp the higher reality rulesets as long as we are here because according to this ruleset here we are not meant to have this capability.

I agree, their rules could probably not be learned from this vantage point. But I am pressing a different question here- can we reason the fact that they must have rules at all? I am supposing we might do this, with my instability argument above.



6  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Is there such a thing as a non-physical world? on: October 21, 2016, 21:29:37
Careful with this question, it may mean something different than you might suppose!

This is a question relating to the philosophy of cosmology I have been considering lately.

Why this question arises becomes more clear when we consider the root meaning of the world physical: a physical system is a system with physics- a system who's behavior can be understood as being governed by laws, be they known or unknown.

So with this definition in mind, let's approach metaphysics. Now most of us here seem to agree that the reality we are experiencing does not appear to be base reality, but rather that this reality is "grounded" in something else. In this tradition, this reality is called "physical", and the reality it is grounded in is called "nonphysical". But is this right? For instance, wouldn't we expect this grounding world to behave by discernable laws? If it in fact did behave by laws, it would in effect be physical. And if it did not behave by laws? That is something of an alarming concept. What would an existence which was not governed by any laws be like? I would expect such a reality to be incredibly unstable; if there are no laws of any kind, you basically have bedlam... it would be impossible to predict what would happen, because there would be no causes. Even contradictions could be true, because the rejection of contradictions is itself a law. Now because our physical world is dependent on this grounding world, if that world were to be random, then this physical world would also be unstable, by consequence.

But this is not what is observed. So the very fact that we live in a world with fairly regular and dependable laws seems to indicate that this world is itself grounded in another world governed by laws (and thus physical). The same logic would apply to any world that other world was grounded into, ad infinitum. A possible conclusion then, seems to be that either there is no non-physical world, or else that world is entirely separate from anything even related in any metaphysical way to this world, since its instability would consequently spill into any world it had a relation to.

Since the subject of physical laws is matter / material, a consequence of this line of thinking would be that we are in fact material beings afterall (just not in the sense that mundane materialists might suppose) !

I have known several metaphysicians to personally hold this view, and I don't think I understood it until just recently, having stumbled onto it by accident.

What do all of you think of this concept?
7  Spiritual Evolution / Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! / Re: Reincarnation on: October 21, 2016, 01:19:01
I get the distinct impression that a lot of what you are asking about is less about metaphysics here, and more about your current situation. Something is bothering you in the here and now, that you want to know about other times and places open to you...
8  Spiritual Evolution / Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! / Re: I believe on: October 19, 2016, 05:56:43
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I believe I know.

That can be very dangerous!
9  Spiritual Evolution / Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! / Re: I believe on: October 15, 2016, 05:26:43
Reminds me a lot of listening to Alan Watts.

I very much enjoy listening to the thoughts of people from the 1950s-mid 60's. The people closest to the present day, but still partially unshackled by most of the modern institutions of popular culture, and steeped in the traditions of philosophy. There is a certain clarity of those perspectives. Eisenhower sounds like a scholar alongside today's pandering politicians.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O17gYJH0xn4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW97Rmw-IFQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoysvD5wCRs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIy8v0LBF0I

10  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Can astral projection be used to kill people? on: October 04, 2016, 21:30:15
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LOL, of course. I see people being referred to old topics all the time.

Nothing against our users, but a lot of them do some iffy things  cheesy

No strictly express reason not to... just that when you bring up a topic this old, it generally merits an increasingly better reason or finding, the older it is.
11  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Can astral projection be used to kill people? on: October 04, 2016, 21:10:06
For a moment, I thought Zorgblar was back, and shuddered.

Did you really need to respond to a decade-old question, lol?
12  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Re: Masculine Energy on: September 05, 2016, 00:44:01
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Not only does the universe "definitely contain polarities" but it absolutely depends on it. There would be no physical universe without it. Also calling creativity "feminine" is, imho, more fundamental than calling a particle's charge negative (which truly is completely arbitrary). Electrons and protons carry opposite charge but which one we choose to call positive (and the other negative) is strictly convention.

We need to make the distinction between the name and the essence here though. Sure, the positive/ negative names are convention. They could be easily reversed. But that is not what I am talking about. There is a fundamental bi-polarity in these particles which is one of the most basic of all things in our universe. What you call each one doesn't change that. A very small number of things are this fundamental here... biological sex is several orders of magnitude less fundamental. It is tied to our reproductive approach, which while common, is not the only means. Many forms of life are not broken down into sexes, and reproduce by either sharing genetic material in an equal way (called conjugation in bacteria), reproducing a clone of the self, or re-arranging one's own genetic material. I think if we encountered alien species, we would see something similar. Some of them would be divided into sexes, and others of them would have singles sexes, and some of them might have 3 or more sexes with different roles (such as one to provide eggs and gestate, one to fertilize, one to care for new children, etc).

I think there is a degree of anthropomorphization going on here... we are applying the human experience to life and the universe as a whole. I think we would find some parts of it would resemble us, and other parts would bear no similarity. We are one form of many.
13  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Re: Masculine Energy on: September 04, 2016, 08:33:00
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Gosh Stillwater, I am going to try to reply to your politically leaning comments as best I can without sounding political....

Not sure I follow. I agree there is a lot of discussion of gender in a political context lately, and it is very overdone.

But I don't see what agenda there is in discussing the accepted definitions of words. It helps to define terms when two parties are using the terms differently, and that difference can cause difficulty in understanding one another properly.

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In my experience there is a realm of universal undifferentiated energy that exists as potential with respect to this universe of duality where positive energy exists in relation to its opposite, negative energy. In Hindu terms we are talking about Shiva, Vishnu and Brahm.
Within the Hindu trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, Brahma is the creator, Vishnu the preserver and Shiva the destroyer. The destructive element is generally identified with the Left.
(Ya gotta pick one...)

Right?

That much is fundamental. Otherwise we don't even have a physical universe to operate in.

This world we live in definitely contains polarities. Obvious ones are the charge of "particles", and spin of particles. But when we are talking about things like male or female "energy", I guess it matters if we are talking about loose figurative terms, or literal fundamental ones. In a figurative sense, sure there are the ideas of creation and destruction, assertion and passivity, and it makes sense to associate them with the different sexes. But are we talking about fundamental structure of the universe at that point? Clearly calling creativity "feminine" is not as fundamental as calling a particle's charge negative?

I think this may be what is tripping people up here. It may not be clear whether we are talking about a figurative myth, or a base fundamental.


14  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Re: Masculine Energy on: September 04, 2016, 07:01:23
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When a human is born with male genitalia he is male.
When a human is born with female genitalia she is female.
[queue the almost totally irrelevant nitpik about hermaphrodites that occur in infinitesimally small numbers]

When they get older and get confused about what they really are it is called "Gender Identity Disorder".

We have to make a bit of distinction here.

The medical definitions of "sex" and gender" are different and distinct.

Sex refers to physiology. Male and female physiologies are unquestionably different. They are physically and chemically different.

Gender refers specifically to social roles that are associated with each biological sex.

Sex is biology, and gender is psychology/ sociology.

Sex is an unchangeable reality. Gender is a combination of evolutionary psychology, and arbitrary social rules which are unique to the society the individual finds them self in, such as roles relating to childrearing, or social interactions. I think there is value in questioning the norms related to gender, insofar as they are not common across different societies, which is proof they are partially arbitrary.

15  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Re: Masculine Energy on: September 03, 2016, 11:48:45
Genders are distinct, no denying it. But you don't have to fit one or the other. Why force yourself to fit an arbitrary standard?

There are aspects of gender that are easier to adhere to, because they make social interaction easier. For instance, men and women wear distinct kinds of clothing, and most people use this to understand one another in social situations. But they are all constructs ultimately, and I think when you realize this, you will be less concerned with meeting a standard.

For instance, I am biologically male, and I present as male in public because it is socially simpler to do so.  But I don't really think of myself as gendered. It doesn't inform my notion of self in any way that is useful to me.
16  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Astral World on: September 03, 2016, 11:25:25
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Does the astral world look like the physical one?

Does the world you see on your computer screen look like the physical world? Sometimes it does, but it has no obligation to. Sometimes you see shots of South America, sometimes you see computer-generated fractals.

Same with a projection space.

It is also worth pointing out that the word "physical" is a bit tricky... it literally means that whatever it is concerned with is a system governed by laws. In this sense, the majority of realities may well be called physical.

But I know what you mean when you talk about the physical / nonphysical distinction- you mean realities which are not continuous with this particular world's projection, or necessarily governed by the same set of laws this one is.
17  2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Welcome to 2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Re: Star Seeds and ETs ? on: August 30, 2016, 10:52:52
It does!
18  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Re: What do christians think about this stuff? on: August 20, 2016, 04:40:58
There are reprehensible things to be found in the holy books of all religions. Some more than others, but if we are talking the Semitic / Abrahamic religions, you don't have to look very hard.

No one belonging to these religions could really follow all of the commandments of their own religion without being a monster. That goes without saying. So it is important to realize that every practitioner is in some manor of dissonance with them. Based on which verses they choose to follow, and which they choose to dismiss, you can actually learn about their personal values. People will take the parts of their faiths that resonate with them.

So while you can call the values of a certain group Christian, or Muslim, or Zoroasterian values, what it really comes down to is the values of their community or family being passed on to them, but being justified as those of their religious tradition.

That is part of why it doesn't help us to say "Christian values" without speaking about the geographic region in question. Are we talking about the Philippines or Alabama? I think if you consider what each group has common to it, the concept would make sense. One of these groups is more concerned with the social justice passages and the Sermon on the Mount, and one of them is more concerned with the Book of Revelations. Islam is much the same. At various times in its history, it has been both the most progressive, and the most regressive faith in the world, based solely on which of the Surahs and Hadiths were held in various readings. It can be both the religion of service, and the religion of war, depending on who is pulling verses.

It is important to realize that religion is at times an instrument of self-expression, I think.
19  Spiritual Evolution / Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! / Re: I believe on: August 12, 2016, 18:00:20
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I believe I can be wrong.

Of those you posted, I like this one best of all. The start of wisdom... admitting we may be wrong about what we thought, and that we know far less than we told our self we did.
20  Spiritual Evolution / Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! / Re: I believe on: August 03, 2016, 04:52:09
I believe we can see ourselves in others, and work to serve their needs as we would our own.

I believe that if you listen to someone long and intently enough, you can understand how they see the world, and they will make more sense to you as a person.

I believe very few people like to be demonstrated to be wrong in public or private, but that if you provide enough information, and understand the limits of the person, you can change their mind over time.

I believe deeds carry more weight than thoughts or words.

I believe we should work to repay those who have served us, whether we were aware of it or not.

I believe we should rely on logic, evidence, experience, and compassion to show us what is true and what isn't.

I believe we should honor our ideals of virtue through art.

I believe, as Kant did, that we should ask ourselves whether the action we are about to take would be more beneficial for everyone to take, or no one to take.
21  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: Nihilism on: August 02, 2016, 02:59:10
Because "nihil" means "nothing".

So "nihilsm" is lacking beliefs, or positively asserting there is nothing to believe in.

"Annihilate" comes from Latin "ad" for "to, and "nihil" for nothing; annihilate literally means to reduce to nothing.

The two words share a root, but annihilate is not the parent word for nihilism; they are instead sister words, so "nihilism" has nothing direct to do with destruction.
22  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: Nihilism on: August 01, 2016, 22:27:50
Why an "Impulse to destroy"? that just sounds silly.

I feel like they are trying to make something dramatic out of something that really isn't.
23  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: Nihilism on: July 31, 2016, 20:28:00
What do you think about outer space?
24  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Re: What are the top most damaging things for the soul? on: July 27, 2016, 03:06:21
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But I think one of the most really damaging things that is pervasive and insidious beyond measure would be Lying.


Hard to really say.

I think it is worth noting that this idea isn't culturally universal. Some cultures consider lying to be a major problem, others much less so.

To me, it isn't outwardly obvious that the isolated act of telling a lie is a negative, rather than merely a neutral.

I think there are many factors that have obvious ethical weights that come into play in the context of the act of lying though.

For instance, if a person tells a lie with the intent to cause harm, that seems like a major negative (but the negative is being applied from the intent here, it seems to me).

If a person is telling a lie in order to obtain something that isn't rightfully theirs, that seems like a major negative (for the same reason as above).

But if a person is telling a lie in order to benefit others? That may possibly be a positive.

Let's say there was a poison gas with a long and unpronouncable name, who's major effects were not apparent to the senses, but would render a person dead 20 hours after exposure, and this gas had been released for an unknown reason in a certain region. Would a person stationed there, telling people who approached that they had to stay away, because there was a dangerous mother bear in the area really be doing something negative? It is much harder to explain to people that something they can't see or sense, and there is no way to prove its existence quickly, will do them lethal harm, than to use the standin of a dangerous animal they will surely easily understand. Was this the best way to keep the people safe? Hard to say. Did the people stationed there do harm? I think probably not.

This may seem like a silly technicality, but I think it gets to the heart of the matter. The thing about lying that seems to carry ethical weight is the intent behind the lie.

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Pretty straightforward question?

Thinking back to Dante's Inferno, the most serious of all sins his Catholic theology could provide him with was betrayal.

Hard to say it is the worst, but betrayal is something most people universally seem to feel is an especially tragic form of terrible evil.

It consists of willfully harming others which are our family, friends, or allies (in other words, the people who we should most protect from harm, and who love and count on us).

To me, it is profound evil the enormity of which is hard to convey in words.
25  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: Need your help on: July 27, 2016, 02:32:33
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i will keep thinking stillwater thanks for an amazing push lets say so i would like to hear your opinion but not like which will answer my question but will be more likely a little hint because i am stuck : D


It is the kind of question you can progress on, in the sense that you know more than you did when you started, but possibly not fully settle. And that is all I can offer... a few tugs further down the rabbit hole.

Perhaps "god" is asking them self if they actually have free will, or just think they do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dqNiSGo9yU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIXGxRZk3G4

These two presentations can help bring you deeper into the question if you are new to the academics of it.

There is this idea of "free won't" described in the first presentation (and touched on in the second):

Basically it goes like this:

When humans act quickly, and even with conscious intent, often the action will happen even before the awareness that there is a choice to be made even happens for the person. This is tested with a reflex experiment described in that presentation. So already, we have fairly strong evidence that our bodies are employing our limbs to do things that we didn't consciously choose for them to do.

A model of the relationship of the conscious mind to our actions is theorized by some neurologists that says our unconscious is making most of our decisions for us, and then sending its decisions to the conscious mind later, in some cases. The conscious mind is given time to "veto" the choice the rest of the brain made, and choose not to do the thing. So in effect our minds are choosing which of our actions not to do, instead of taking an actual positive initiative. This mainly applies to things which happen in the space of seconds; more involved decisions, like who to date, or when to walk to the fridge, seem like they may have larger conscious components.

So that is a good introduction to the kind of issues there are, taking the situation from a purely physical vantage.

Further along, we have to define what we actually mean by free will.

1) Does it mean that our conscious mind is making decisions based on information it receives?

2) Does it mean that we could have made other choices to the ones we made? (this has consequences on what the metaphysical structure of the universe is like)

3) Does it mean that we humans have or are some sort of immaterial being separate from what appears to be a deterministic universe? (obvious strong metaphysical consequences)

Most people seem to think that the question of free will necessitates more than 1, up to 2, but not necessarily 3; but it is important to know which question you are actually asking too.

If the universe is a self-contained materialist system (which I don't think it is), the question of free will is probably easily answered. Questions of spooky quantum events aside, since there is no obvious answer for how a materialist consciousness would actively cause a particle to take one possible quantum outcome over another (and everything that consciousness would do would have predictable material causes as well), it really seems like there is no place for it in such a world.

So let's say that we accept either monism of mind, or dualism (meaning respectively that only mind exists, or that mind and matter exist separately). We are basically in the dark. If we are describing a physical system, we can explain why things happen, using macro physics, chemistry, and micro physics. If we are talking about an immaterial being, there are no cogs turning we can see! We can't point at atoms to explain things. Does the immaterial being have any kind of structure? If it does, what describes the relationship its parts have between one another? If there are laws governing these parts, then we have a physics of the immaterial! Which is an absurdity... since a non-physical thing by its very definition doesn't have physics.

If, true to form, the immaterial beings have no parts which operate on one another according to laws... then it is truly anyone's guess, since there is almost no way to study it or understand its workings!
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