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1076  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Re: Trippy-ass videos on: December 13, 2010, 09:55:19
it is off-topic but yes - i agree that evil can be quite fascinating at times to explore.

It is interesting how psychopaths are often very kind persons outside their "work".

Yes. People like to dramatize the extreme differences they see between themselves, as "normal people", and people deemed psychotic, and profoundly departed from any reasonable sensibility. In truth, I think there is oftentimes only the subtlest difference in thought or manner in those who commit "evil" acts; just one peculiar thought or belief may motivate a person to quite audacious actions. People are fast to condemn, and declare others abberrant monsters, perhaps to distance themselves from the idea that they are not so different.

Hitler was actually lauded for his kindness and gentle ways, while he was not focused on his visions.
1077  2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Welcome to 2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Re: 2012 swag on: December 10, 2010, 05:13:41
Yeah, I would not be surprised if there were eventually a second American revolution, but that the revolutionaries will be too busy plotting the war, and don't spend any time considering what will come after, and a brutal fascist state rises afterward.
1078  Spiritual Evolution / Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! / Re: Life, Death and Paperclips on: December 09, 2010, 18:48:20
I guess we both agree then that those practicing science in large part suffer from a paradigm bias. This is generally referred to as "Scientism". wink

It seemed to me that you were making a much more radical claim then you might have meant.
1079  Spiritual Evolution / Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! / Re: Life, Death and Paperclips on: December 09, 2010, 01:56:36
I agree that there are some concepts that can only be understood from an experential, first-person perspective, put that does not mean that all of those you have mentioned don't also have "logical" meanings or definitions. To say that something is outside of the constraints of what mainstream science currently accepts is not to say it has no scientific explanation at all.

Speaking of acupuncture, as you mentioned, if it really is the case that it is an "etheric" phenomenon, then it is possible that a newer scientific model which acknowledges an etheric spectrum of existence can describe the phenomena of how it functions. Just because the current practitioners of science are biased in some way or another, does not mean the concept cannot be understood from a rational perspective at all.
1080  Spiritual Evolution / Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! / Re: Life, Death and Paperclips on: December 08, 2010, 19:34:01
People try to understand such concepts with their scientific/logical brain and this is the mistake. Only by meditating upon such things can you understand them.

Hi Taoist,

Can you elaborate a bit, and explain what you intend by "such concepts", and where exactly you feel the mistake lies?
1081  2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Welcome to 2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Re: 2012 swag on: December 07, 2010, 17:17:35
I think you're overestimating the muslim growth factor. This can be due to the psychological and xenophobic paranoia promoted by the media.

Oh, I don't deny that there is a massive onslaught of negative media reflection on the idea, and tons of ignorance being propogated.

But I still believe this is a reality. Over half of europe has declining birthrates below replacement levels among its natives in any individual country, and the Immigrants coming in from the Middle east, Turkey, and North Africa are all having large families several times replacement.  I am not saying this trend will continue indefinitely, but if it should continue over a couple generations, Europe will begin to look 25-40% Muslim. There are already places in Sweden and Denmark where these percentages have actualized.

In order to deny the idea of this growth, you would have to deny those statistics about birth rates.

In all honesty, and I don't mean this in any derogatory way, I think the coming century belongs to China and Islam, in the same way that the past half-century or so belonged to the U.S. and its interests.
1082  Spiritual Evolution / Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! / Re: Life, Death and Paperclips on: December 07, 2010, 04:12:23
If we assume there is nothing before life, (simply because our brain doesn't remember anything) once the individual knows something exists, that part of the paperclip will always be bent because why would you go back to nothingness when you could exist in somethingness.

It is really hard for someone to concieve of non-existence, since from the earliest anyone can think of, they have existed; it is thusly difficult, because an intrinsic first property of our minds is that they at the very least exist. The problem comes because we try to imagine non-existence from a perspective- the perspective of what it would be "like" to not exist, for instance; but this is a contradiction- the best way to imagine non-existence would be total lack of a perspective.

And it seems difficult to imagine it... but think of yourself when you are in a deep, dreamless sleep. I am not talking about REM, or when you are in a hazy reverie, but when you have pretty much no frontal lobe activity at all, deep in delta state. In a sense, there is a time when we are asleep that we are basically dead, as dark as that seems. And then... you begin to wake again, and it is almost like you came back into existence from nothingness, like you were created anew again. If you want to imagine non-existence, imagine that.

I am not saying that is final reality, mind you, but that is how you would conceive of the concept, as it really isn't the alien thing you might think.
1083  2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Welcome to 2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Re: 2012 swag on: December 07, 2010, 03:57:34
agreed.  however, religion will always be mainstream, and i definitely think we are about to witness a new age religion "win out" over Islam/Christianity.  one that is more compatible with science.  the truth is ever changing and i don't see us all becoming astrological gurus by 2012, but i do see a smarter religion coming along that is associated with the occult and metaphysics, and perhaps this is why our entertainers have gone bat excrement insane.  not just in music either.

But religion usually only generally keeps a portion of the original founder's message, and surrounds it in a web of superstition, ritual, and mis-interpretations. It is definitely right to say religion is mainstream, and it inherits all the same flaws as mainstream thinking.

You might be right about the religious revolution, but I think that if any great change is coming, it will be an enormous wave of Islam. Islamic immigrants in Europe are far outpacing native birth rates in their respective new homes, and many have projected the Islamic sector to be the overwhelming wing of growth. The same is also true in Southeast Asia, where Islam is replacing Hinduism and Buddhism over time. At the rate we are going, Muslims will be a majority far more powerful than the Catholic church was in its heyday.
1084  2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Welcome to 2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Re: how many of you belive? on: December 07, 2010, 00:42:29
I used to have the same mindset. But truth is you either BELIEVE in a Metaphysical Reality, or you dont. Your going to put yourself through hell pondering in between. I really cant do that any longer though.

Well, you could also take the stance that there is not enough information to make a final conclusion. Most of the philosophers I know don't have too many concrete beliefs, because they have been exposed to too much plurality, and have heard the counterargument to every metaphysical assertion.

It will really only bother you if you let it... and on some levels, regardless of the metaphysical reality, the way you live your life will be the same. If you believe in compassion and helping others, you will likely do so whether you believe in a god, some other metaphysical substrate, or neither of these; the same goes for seeking new or transcendent experiences, or for meditative practices. Many spiritual ways of life, such as some forms of Buddhism, are remarkably independent of any metaphysical framework that they might associate with.

 If you are unsure, you will find out soon enough (or you won't!  cool ). If you live without expectations, you will always be surprised!
1085  Metaphysics / Welcome to Metaphysics! / Re: Chee Soo - Taoist Master on: December 06, 2010, 20:33:46
You must return to the state of the unhewn log.
1086  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: Determinism vs Freewill on: December 06, 2010, 19:24:11

An "immaterial mind" is not a good explanation for the free will question. Try explaining the concept of an immaterial mind to someone who's suffered a stroke and now has a completely different personality because of physical changes to their brain.

The stroke example is a strong argument for materialism, but still not a disproof of other suggested solutions to the mind-body problem. A proponent of mind-monism, for instance, could retort that perhaps the person's mind was participating in a physical simulation-type reality, in which the the mind and brain are intimately tied, but still not insepparable in the greater paradigm.

if we are really matter reacting to stimuli, no matter how complicated those stimuli/reactions are, then those criminals were destined to commit their crimes at their moment of conception. Should they go free because they didn't choose to be born criminals? Absolutely not. Personally I think we can accept that free will is an illusion but still behave as if it exists.

Yes, I have often said this too. One of the reasons I don't believe in concept of punishment qua punishement is that there is no way to be certain that people are infact responsible for their actions, and capable of having done otherwise. I am okay with people being isolated for a time to protect other potential victims, but not in a harsh manner, or as punishment. More like quarantine, I guess, and only for the length of time necessary to know that they are not a likely danger.

I guess it depends on what spiritual beliefs you subscribe to. If you're dead set on believing in a conscious soul that is somehow thinking thoughts separately from your physical mind, you're forced to believe in free will. There's no way to prove or disprove this theory so it's somewhat of a show-stopper if you're trying to have a discussion.

This is not true, since as I have pointed out, immaterialists are also subject to the same problems the materialist faced, just one level of reality higher. They still need to explain how immaterial substance is capable of making choices, since how would they justify the reason for one choice being made, and not another, if there was a possiblity for each to be made?

There's some wiggle room if you think about quantum physics. I hate to bring up a topic I know so little about, but if there is true randomness at the atomic level then there's are possibly true undetermined outcomes in your brain matter, and thus your decision-making process. Whether this rolling of the dice equates to free will is another question altogether.

Yeah, that is a big grey area. I think my reason wants to side with the idea of "Bohmian mechanics", which states that quantum events only seem to have the appearance of randomacity because we do not fully understand all the forces, effects, and phenomena that happen at that level. For instance, say that there are vastly small sub-sub-atomic particles that are always coming into existence from the quantum vacuum, to fulfill some need of equilibrium in mass-energy topography, but then immediately self-annihilating with their anti-particles. This would saturate the sub-atomic landscape with unpredictable amounts of raw energy to be absorbed, and perhaps explain why those quantum events seemed to be occuring seemingly at random. I don't think quantum mechanics has found the finger of God, but rather just stumbled into a realm where our theory is jumping too far ahead of the ability of our current instruments to measure.

But perhaps these events truly are "random", and an insertion point for metaphysical influences. Who knows.
1087  Metaphysics / Welcome to Metaphysics! / Re: Frequency 528 Hz on: December 06, 2010, 18:58:31

Take a look at what these people are doing for the polluted Gulf of Mexico... They have a lot of equipment that powerfully blasts out frequencies.

Hutchison Effect Cleans Gulf
Hutchison Effect Cleans Gulf Waters
Scientist John Hutchison Uses Frequency Healing to Restore The Gulf After BP Oil Spill
(at 7:14 she says "528"; at 13:36 the Solfeggio frequencies circle is shown)

Apparently it is working, based on all the sample reports.


Yeah, but going back to the idea about making hard empirical claims, there is no way to test a conclusion like that. There are not two planet earths, each with an identical gulf spill, where they can experiment on the one, and leave the other untouched as a control. There is no way to say that any improvemnt being made was not something simply caused by geological processes over time, or by the actions of some other party using some other means at the same time.

1088  2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Welcome to 2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Re: LA Incident "movie"? on: December 05, 2010, 04:37:11
I was always entertained by Hollywood movies that depict battles between humanity and aliens. If aliens came, they would take what they want, period. And I suspect that perhaps they do. I have a feeling that despite what new-agers would tell you, aliens are likely to have radically different conceptions of ethics than we do, and they might easily condone doing things we would cringe at, and vice-versa. There are perhaps some entities with what we would think of as our best interest at heart, but also exceedingly likely are those who do as they please.

Assuming alien species exist, as I believe they do, we are still here, mostly unmolested, because

1) We are protected by some force or interest, or
2) We have nothing of value to take
1089  2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Welcome to 2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Re: 2012 swag on: December 04, 2010, 14:56:22
I think the direction in which our hip hop/rock/pop stars have gone towards is most definitive of a hidden scheme to plant the seeds of truth within the minds of our youth.

The truth has never been mainstream. Kongzi (Confucious), Zhuangzi and Laozi (The two great Daoists) were all pretty much near enemies of the state, living on the fringe. Very little art or meaning comes from the accepted or popularly sanctioned channels.
1090  2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Welcome to 2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Re: 2012 Is So Silly on: December 04, 2010, 14:46:38

I like the second one best... and it actually describes my belief on the subject. LOL

Well, the Mayan calender is not based on nothing, lol- you should give them much more credit than that. It is based on the precession of the equinoxes. So.... in 2012..... the equinoxes will have precessed.
1091  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: Determinism vs Freewill on: December 04, 2010, 14:27:23
Yeah, that is a common approach to the problem- saying we can still have determinism, but the thing making determinations in the case of rational creatures is an immaterial mind. But that, in a way, might be begging the question, since the problem simply rises to the next level, and we then have to consider if these immaterial minds or substances are free or pre-determined; because if they are pre-determined, the answer is simple, they just do what they do because their actions are shaped by immaterial laws; but if they are free and able to make multiple choices, then the problem is back, and just as massive. If immaterial minds were free and able to make choices, then what would cause them to make one choice over another? If nothing was forcing them to, how would you justify what happened?
1092  Astral Chat / Welcome to News and Media! / Re: MUST READ Baba Vanga predictions! on: November 30, 2010, 20:03:06
I think I read someplace that these particular predictions ( the predictions going 3000 years into the future ) were forged by some random Russian source, and ascribed to Vanga. Don't know who to believe with this stuff... so much heresay.

But I agree, tofu, that this stuff is good to post, to get out there for discussion.
1093  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Re: Members' Artwork on: November 25, 2010, 13:20:48
Maya, Rhino, or viz/3ds max?

Looks like street building is photoshopped in, near alley rendered (has no watertable base, or cross-wythe bonds), directional spotlight directly above.

Haha... look at everything like an architect, lol.  Nice figure!
1094  Astral Chat / Welcome to News and Media! / Re: MUST READ Baba Vanga predictions! on: November 25, 2010, 01:14:02
He looks like something Tim Burton cooked up.

Haha, that is what I thought too. I was actually corrected in thinking this, when it was pointed out to me that "The Nightmare Before Christmas" characters and other Burtonisms were in reality derived from the Slenderman, who lives as a primal archetype in our subconscious.

lmao, what about candlejack stillwater, why didn

Exactly  wink


But on topic, while I find Baba Vanga's case interesting, what bothers me is how they ascribe so many "correct" predictions, but never seem to list what the exact statement was, or when it was made. For instance, they say that she predicted Diana's death, but they never provide the exact statement to let people judge for themselves. It just has too much of a heresay and pop-folksy hero character to it to seem credible. And she does have some wild predictions coming down the pike, lol. I know there is probably a language gap working against her here, but....

2088 A new disease aging for a few seconds!

2097 The rapid aging defeated.
What could that even mean?

2164 Animals turn half-human.

? ? ?

4304 Found a way to win any disease.

Care to elaborate?

4674 The development of civilization has reached its peak. The number of people living on different planets is about 340 billion. Assimilation begins with aliens.

5076 A boundary universe. With it, no one knows.

5078 The decision to leave the boundaries of the universe. While about 40 percent of the population is against it.

5079 End of the World.

I can understand what "end of the world" means now-just some bad event happening to the earth or its people. What could the end of the world mean in the context of a galactic empire stretched across innumerable planets?

I am not saying Vanga is wrong by any means, but there does not seem to be enough information readily avaible on her to validate the claims made of her authenticity. It is always a bad sign when sources are oft cited, but never presented.
1095  Astral Chat / Welcome to News and Media! / Re: MUST READ Baba Vanga predictions! on: November 24, 2010, 20:13:29
Stillwater, what is the slenderman?  Is it supposed to be like the Christians Satan coming to earth or something?

The slenderman is an idea that is basically a synthesis of all the creatures and shades that result from subconscious fears, combined with the echatological prophecies of the western religions. He is like a crooked patchwork of all these ideas and fears stitched together in one figure.

His myth has been described many ways, but his essential features are that he is impossibly tall and spindly, dressed in dark clothing, somtimes a suit, and is without face. He stalks through the woods, perhaps hunting children, where his dark silohette causes him to be confused with tree limbs and trunks.

It is a sort of running internet joke that he can be mentioned with other, more accepted ideas of creatures or prophecies, and be given immediate and unquestioned acceptance, since he seems to be directly made from elements that seem so subconsciously familiar. Plus his very name, in a queer way, sounds like he should be something terrible, without knowing a single other thing about him.
1096  Astral Chat / Welcome to News and Media! / Re: MUST READ Baba Vanga predictions! on: November 24, 2010, 13:46:06
Don't be silly, lol. Lots of people claimed to know about 911.

And plus, we all know the apocalypse will not happen before the coming of the slenderman. It is one of the predicted forerunners, he is in all the prophecies.


But on another note, I feel terrible for the Korean people. They have to put up with madmen like Kim Jong Il running the show, and a very real possibility of war that will likely claim millions of Korean lives. At least the U.S. soldiers who die chose to become involved in the army, but I can tell you that Korea, even South Korea, practices mandatory military service for all male citizens. It really is a no win situation for anyone, and it is the people of Korea that will suffer.
1097  2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Welcome to 2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Re: how many of you belive? on: November 22, 2010, 20:12:00
My husband used to say to me 'we'll all find out soon enough, why worry about it now?' when I would ask him how he felt about life after death and it used to get me a bit angry.  I mean, here I was with this urgent need to know if what I was experiencing was part of the answer and he could give nothing more than a shoulder shrug. 

I'm pleased to say, I get it now.  Proof or no proof, it doesn't matter.  Believing or not will not change what really happens, so why worry?

Sometimes I think that if there is indeed a metaphysical reality, as I think there likely is, that maybe we are just not supposed to know about it, or at least have certainty.

I mean, part of the human experience is having doubt about the fate of human consciousness, and that tends to make our present lives more precious. Since we mostly all have doubt about what is beyond our scope, we are better allowed to live in the present moment, and immerse ourselves in the experience of this reality and its dramas. I mean, sure lots of people want more knowledge, but there are some things you can only experience through ignorance. I mean, can a being that has lived for the equivalent of millions of years of awareness really feel the same joy sitting at a piano, or feel same thankfulness toward elders protecting us as children? How can a million year-old being feel even feel vulnerable?

It is like our lives are the most immersive play possible. In a normal play, you merely watch a recreation of the action, and need exposition to surmise what the actors are thinking and feeling. In this one, you actually get to be the actor themself, and get immersed in their world and emotions, feel their limitations and their joys.
1098  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: Determinism vs Freewill on: November 19, 2010, 19:54:31
Philosophy is fun  Haha. but usually ultimately pointless.

I would say that this is very far from the truth. Probably the greatest fruit of philosophy in history has been to disabuse people of the notion that they know particular things for certain. When certain ideas, particularly religious ones take hold of a society, they can direct the course of its history, as the Abrahamic ones have done for more than 2000 years. Philosophy gives the tools for showing people they cannot conclusively prove things they thought they knew, and would have acted on. Descartes, Hume, and others provided ideas about uncertainty regarding the senses as a source of information, and the innability to use induction as valid tool for argument, and these ideas led directly into the scientific enlightenment.

I am not at all saying that this religion or that is untrue, but I am saying that holding the conviction that what you believe is proven beyond doubt is a dangerous notion, and philosphy has helped us break free of that position.

I disagree.  I'd say 'as they grow older', because the dance between the rational mind and the emotional mind are not linear and progressive- I'd say it's more like a curve.  In your twenties you become 'more rational' but in your forties the trend starts go go a different way.  I can say that in my case I have become more dream-driven and emotional after I hit my forties, and in my family at least, old people are not rational at all.  In both good and bad ways, old people overcome the lessons learned and go back to not caring that much about consequences, which are a function of the 'rational' mind.

I agree with this CFT, I have observed this to be the case too. Old people and children have much in common- children live in a word before ration, and older people have sometimes, with effort or experience, learned to look past ration the guiding principle of the world. I guess a few dreamy artist-types may maintain this position all along.
1099  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: Determinism vs Freewill on: November 19, 2010, 05:34:23
Many contemporary philosophers think free will and determinism might be compatible, so they are not necessarily mutually-exclusive. The reason for this comes from a common reading of the concept of determinism to read as, "Everything happens for a reason" ie., a determination. So if you viewed most of nature to be inanimate, and mechanical, under this view of determinism, there could only be one possible outcome for any given event that does not have conscious agency involved in it. But any event involving conscious agency would also be determined, but determined by the choice of those making decisions, and furthermore, it would not have been a necessary choice, unlike the necessary results of mechanical events in nature. I don't necessarily agree with this viewpoint, but it is one that several notables hold.

The major problem people trying to defend free-will outside a determinist framework face is explaining why things involving choice happen at all. It is simple when you are dealing with a pre-determined event, as under most deterministic theories, since the reasons are all spelled out, they are the laws of nature and the current state of the universe. But when you are dealing with choice... why did one thing happen, and not another? What caused you to make that particular choice? There could be no cause, or you would be back to determinism. But if there was no cause, then why did it happen?

The thing is, once you have been in philosophy long enough, you start to lose your own views, lol. You just start to think of possibilities, and alternatives. You favor some, and shy away from others, but never really have definitive veiws. This was true of most of the philosophers I have known, at least.
1100  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: What happened to (and how is) Frank Kepple? on: November 18, 2010, 08:16:28
Some people have suggested that he got into a bind when he took orders for a book he could never get printed, and did not want to deal with giving all the refunds, lol, so just "disappeared. 

I guess that is the alternative.

Who knows... I tend to think it was the health thing, but have no authority to say.
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