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1076  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / Re: Does Religon Play a Part in Astral Travel on: December 23, 2010, 11:17:48
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I, and I assume you and many others here, have experienced the vibrations and we are still here, we are not smouldering in some hellfire on the whim of a great evil being. Therefore, the vibrations are not Satan whisking you away to hell for being a sinner.

This does not constitute proof. It is quite possible that Satan's charms work in a protean fashion, and massage away one's resistance slowly over time. Perhaps it takes thousands of projections for it to happen, but maybe it will overtime, given enough progress. Maybe that is what happened to Frank kepple.

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I don't see at all what the point is in belief of complete and total subjectivity in everything.

Well, what is it about the physical world that you could claim to know? You don't know what matter looks like... it is colorless, and probably formless as well, despite the many levels of organization binding it into particular patterns. We never get to see this matter, though, only the interpretations our brains make about photons sent and reflected from it, processed several times over. Nor do we ever get to contact the matter with our minds, but merely receive signals that our body tells us originated from a point of touch or pressure. And so with all of our senses or means of gathering information about the world.

Ultimately, if you really think about it, since all we have are our sense perceptions and our self-originating ideas, there is really no ultimate proof that there even is a physical world to begin with, in the Cartesian sense. It very well may be the case, although I am not arguing that here, that we are merely minds being fed perceptions which suggest the existence of an outside world in which we all live and interact; and there is no way to know for sure whether this reality is true, or if the mundane accepted view is true; odder still, perhaps they are both true simaltaneously, in different senses.

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I know for sure that pouring gasoline on a fire will provoke the fire.

Only if there is air present. Otherwise the gasoline will just put the fire out  wink
1077  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / Re: Does Religon Play a Part in Astral Travel on: December 22, 2010, 23:13:27
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If a Christian woman interprets the vibrations and the split as Satan coming to reap her soul for being a naughty meditation-practising witch, then she is interpreting her experience wrongly, incorrectly, badly, whatever you want to call it. No matter how you look at it through that "you create your reality" lens, it is completely and 100% false and an absurd conclusion on her part which she wouldn't have arrived at had she been a mentally capable human being. This is a real life example I've used, by the way.

Well, it was true to her, and she was the one experiencing it. Ultimately, all we have are our own personal experiences, and how we interpret them. We don't even have actual contact with the phsyical world, since everything comes to us through the port of our senses, and is transformed and interpreted many times over by our brain processes, before we directly experience them. We all exist in our own personal consciousness, and have no direct contact with anything outside.

A Don Quioxte is no less heroic merely because others do not seem to share his sense of reality. The giants he overcomes and the selfless acts he commits are every bit as laudable.
1078  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / Re: Does Religon Play a Part in Astral Travel on: December 22, 2010, 21:04:47
Well... I think the reason why people who are fervently religious may have mystic / projection type experiences is because they will, in the case of the east, meditate for absurdly long times, or in the case of the Abrahamic religions, will pray in a repetitive and devotional manner for so long that it often amounts to meditation as well.

When you meditate for that long, you can begin to have your focus shift from your physical existence entirely, and that opens the door to all sorts of interesting, mystical-type experiences, projection and otherwise.

It is about the state of mind that these religious devotions procure, more than anything I would suspect.
1079  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Re: Astral Projecting and mainstream media on: December 22, 2010, 11:14:37
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Yeah, once you find out what it is you slowly come to realise that everyone knows what it is on some level, and references to it are everywhere in our media and culture. The only reason it's more well "known (understood)" is that people simply don't care about it. "Out of body experience" and "astral" are both common concepts which any person will immediately understand, but somehow people have developed the uncanny ability to push these huge significant references to the back of their minds and file it under "non-interesting".

Yeah, I had seen images from when I was very young that depicted astral projection. When I was maybe 7 or 8, I saw a movie scene where a yogi was sitting in meditation on a Himalayan mountain, and his "astral awareness" went floating off, a shadowing double, still in lotus position, lol. I had the idea planted in my head that projection was at least a concept, perhaps a religious one. It was not until about 13-14 that I actually found all this literature, and found out it was something I myself could do, give enough time.

I think many of the people I have known in my adult time have known what projection was, in synopsis, but never developed an interest; perhaps it was because they too viewed it as some branch of spooky mysticism having no bearing on their lives. I think most of them would have wanted to do it themselves, if they could be convinced it was possible.
1080  2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Welcome to 2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Re: Earth changes and 2012 on: December 21, 2010, 17:20:47
                                                                       
1081  2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Welcome to 2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Re: Earth changes and 2012 on: December 21, 2010, 09:14:15
No one really ever seems to agree where the photon belt is. Whenever someone wants to get people hyped up or freaked out, they always say, "Lo! The photon belt, a mere two years away!" It is always two years away. Just enough time to do meaningful things in your life before it happens, but not enough time to change things or avoid it, before we all bake/ ascend/ are invaded/ bake and ascend/ or we get the next prediction about how it is really coming 2 years later. Really, I have been hearing about it since mid-90s. I would not be surprised if people were talking about it in the 70s.
1082  Integral Philosophy / Welcome to Integral Philosophy! / Re: the universe is it infinite? on: December 16, 2010, 07:15:33

I could not find material dealing directly with the theory I spoke of, but here is an excerpt from "Scientific American" dealing with the possible physical reasons for a uiverse with finite space.

http://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/~zirbel/ast21/sciam/IsSpaceFinite.pdf

I recommend reading it; they provide arguements for the universe possibly being a projection of a "hypersphere" that curves back into itself, or a representation of other closed contiguous surface geometries. One interesting concept that is mentioned in the article is that the idea that there are billions of other galaxies may be an illusion, and it may actually be the same handfull of a few thousand galaxies that we are seeing over and over, from different angles, as spacetime bends around to show us these same galaxies at different positions and times in their spacetime history.

But there are also two scientific lines of argument
that favor finitude. The first involves a thought experiment
devised by Isaac Newton and revisited by
George Berkeley and Ernst Mach. Grappling with the
causes of inertia, Newton imagined two buckets partially
filled with water. The first bucket is left still, and the
surface of the water is flat. The second bucket is spun
rapidly, and the surface of the water is concave. Why?
The naive answer is centrifugal force. But how does
the second bucket know it is spinning? In particular,
what defines the inertial reference frame relative to
which the second bucket spins and the first does not?
Berkeley and Mach’s answer was that all the matter in
the universe collectively provides the reference frame.
The first bucket is at rest relative to distant galaxies, so
its surface remains flat. The second bucket spins relative
to those galaxies, so its surface is concave. If there were
no distant galaxies, there would be no reason to prefer
one reference frame over the other. The surface in both
buckets would have to remain flat, and therefore the
water would require no centripetal force to keep it rotating.
In short, it would have no inertia. Mach inferred
that the amount of inertia a body experiences is proportional
to the total amount of matter in the universe. An
infinite universe would cause infinite inertia. Nothing
could ever move.
In addition to Mach’s argument, there is preliminary
work in quantum cosmology, which attempts to describe
how the universe emerged spontaneously from
the void. Some such theories predict that a low-volume
universe is more probable than a high-volume one. An
infinite universe would have zero probability of coming
into existence [see “Quantum Cosmology and the Creation
of the Universe,” by Jonathan J. Halliwell; Scientific
American, December 1991]. Loosely speaking,
its energy would be infinite, and no quantum fluctuation
could muster such a sum.
Historically, the idea of a finite universe ran into its
own obstacle: the apparent need for an edge. Aristotle
argued that the universe is finite on the grounds that a
boundary was necessary to fix an absolute reference
frame, which was important to his worldview. But his
critics wondered what happened at the edge. Every

edge has another side. So why not redefine the “universe”
to include that other side? German mathematician
Georg F. B. Riemann solved the riddle in the mid-
19th century. As a model for the cosmos, he proposed
the hypersphere—the three-dimensional surface of a
four-dimensional ball, just as an ordinary sphere is the
two-dimensional surface of a three-dimensional ball. It
was the first example of a space that is finite yet has no
problematic boundary.
One might still ask what is outside the universe. But
this question supposes that the ultimate physical reality
must be a Euclidean space of some dimension. That is, it
presumes that if space is a hypersphere, then that hypersphere
must sit in a four-dimensional Euclidean space,
allowing us to view it from the outside. Nature, however,
need not cling to this notion. It would be perfectly acceptable
for the universe to be a hypersphere and not be
embedded in any higher-dimensional space. Such an object
may be difficult to visualize, because we are used to
viewing shapes from the outside. But there need not be
an “outside.”
By the end of the 19th century, mathematicians had
discovered a variety of finite spaces without boundaries.
German astronomer Karl Schwarzschild brought this
work to the attention of his colleagues in 1900. In a
postscript to an article in Vierteljahrschrift der Astronomischen
Gesellschaft, he challenged his readers:
Imagine that as a result of enormously extended
astronomical experience, the entire universe consists
of countless identical copies of our Milky
Way, that the infinite space can be partitioned
into cubes each containing an exactly identical
copy of our Milky Way. Would we really
cling on to the assumption of infinitely many
identical repetitions of the same world?. . .
We would be much happier with the view that
these repetitions are illusory, that in reality space
has peculiar connection properties so that if we
leave any one cube through a side, then we immediately
reenter it through the opposite side.
Schwarzschild’s example illustrates how one can mentally
construct a torus from Euclidean space. In two dimensions,
begin with a square and identify opposite
sides as the same—as is done in many video games, such
as the venerable Asteroids, in which a spaceship going
off the right side of the screen reappears on the left side.
Apart from the interconnections between sides, the
space is as it was before. Triangles span 180 degrees,
parallel laser beams never meet and so on—all the familiar
rules of Euclidean geometry hold. At first glance, the
space looks infinite to those who live within it, because
there is no limit to how far they can see. Without traveling
around the universe and reencountering the same
objects, the ship could not tell that it is in a torus [see illustration
below]. In three dimensions, one begins with
a cubical block of space and glues together opposite
faces to produce a 3-torus.

When Albert Einstein published the first relativistic
model of the universe in 1917, he chose Riemann’s hypersphere
as the overall shape. At that time, the topology
of space was an active topic of discussion. Russian
mathematician Aleksander Friedmann soon generalized
Einstein’s model to permit an expanding universe and a
hyperbolic space. His equations are still routinely used
by cosmologists. He emphasized that the equations of
his hyperbolic model applied to finite universes as well
as to the standard infinite one—an observation all the
more remarkable because, at the time, no examples of
finite hyperbolic spaces were known.
1083  Integral Philosophy / Welcome to Integral Philosophy! / Re: the universe is it infinite? on: December 16, 2010, 03:34:05
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Stillwater, is it just that or do they think it reverts back unto itself because their own logic and reasoning had limits?


The people who theorize that the amount of space in the universe is finite don't postulate that because they want an explanation to the question of endlessness or finitude, but rather because they think that space "costs" the universe something to provide, and the idea that the bounds of the universe have no space beyond them follows from that reasoning.

I will try to find a source for this, so I am not pulling this out of the air.

1084  Metaphysics / Welcome to Metaphysics! / Re: Channeling God!! on: December 15, 2010, 14:08:50
Not sure if he speaks Arabic... or whatever that Cyrilic one (Russian?) was.

When you use alternate languages, you should post translations, since it is against forum policy.
1085  Integral Philosophy / Welcome to Integral Philosophy! / Re: the universe is it infinite? on: December 15, 2010, 08:36:43
Some Physcists think that not only is the matter and energy in the universe finite, but also the space. Like past a certain point, there is no more capacity to support mass or energy being there, and space just curves back around into itself again past that point. I don't know why they think this, but I think they were reasoning along the lines that space does not exist  be default, but rather must be supported by the existence of energy within it. An interesting idea; it basically amounts to saying that try as you might, you could never fly away from the universe (at least in a physical sense).
1086  2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Welcome to 2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Re: how many of you belive? on: December 14, 2010, 22:19:18
It does. By definition  wink
1087  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Re: Trippy-ass videos on: December 13, 2010, 09:55:19
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it is off-topic but yes - i agree that evil can be quite fascinating at times to explore.

It is interesting how psychopaths are often very kind persons outside their "work".


Yes. People like to dramatize the extreme differences they see between themselves, as "normal people", and people deemed psychotic, and profoundly departed from any reasonable sensibility. In truth, I think there is oftentimes only the subtlest difference in thought or manner in those who commit "evil" acts; just one peculiar thought or belief may motivate a person to quite audacious actions. People are fast to condemn, and declare others abberrant monsters, perhaps to distance themselves from the idea that they are not so different.

Hitler was actually lauded for his kindness and gentle ways, while he was not focused on his visions.
1088  2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Welcome to 2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Re: 2012 swag on: December 10, 2010, 05:13:41
Yeah, I would not be surprised if there were eventually a second American revolution, but that the revolutionaries will be too busy plotting the war, and don't spend any time considering what will come after, and a brutal fascist state rises afterward.
1089  Spiritual Evolution / Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! / Re: Life, Death and Paperclips on: December 09, 2010, 18:48:20
I guess we both agree then that those practicing science in large part suffer from a paradigm bias. This is generally referred to as "Scientism". wink

It seemed to me that you were making a much more radical claim then you might have meant.
1090  Spiritual Evolution / Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! / Re: Life, Death and Paperclips on: December 09, 2010, 01:56:36
I agree that there are some concepts that can only be understood from an experential, first-person perspective, put that does not mean that all of those you have mentioned don't also have "logical" meanings or definitions. To say that something is outside of the constraints of what mainstream science currently accepts is not to say it has no scientific explanation at all.

Speaking of acupuncture, as you mentioned, if it really is the case that it is an "etheric" phenomenon, then it is possible that a newer scientific model which acknowledges an etheric spectrum of existence can describe the phenomena of how it functions. Just because the current practitioners of science are biased in some way or another, does not mean the concept cannot be understood from a rational perspective at all.
1091  Spiritual Evolution / Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! / Re: Life, Death and Paperclips on: December 08, 2010, 19:34:01
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People try to understand such concepts with their scientific/logical brain and this is the mistake. Only by meditating upon such things can you understand them.

Hi Taoist,

Can you elaborate a bit, and explain what you intend by "such concepts", and where exactly you feel the mistake lies?
1092  2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Welcome to 2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Re: 2012 swag on: December 07, 2010, 17:17:35
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I think you're overestimating the muslim growth factor. This can be due to the psychological and xenophobic paranoia promoted by the media.

Oh, I don't deny that there is a massive onslaught of negative media reflection on the idea, and tons of ignorance being propogated.

But I still believe this is a reality. Over half of europe has declining birthrates below replacement levels among its natives in any individual country, and the Immigrants coming in from the Middle east, Turkey, and North Africa are all having large families several times replacement.  I am not saying this trend will continue indefinitely, but if it should continue over a couple generations, Europe will begin to look 25-40% Muslim. There are already places in Sweden and Denmark where these percentages have actualized.

In order to deny the idea of this growth, you would have to deny those statistics about birth rates.

In all honesty, and I don't mean this in any derogatory way, I think the coming century belongs to China and Islam, in the same way that the past half-century or so belonged to the U.S. and its interests.
1093  Spiritual Evolution / Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! / Re: Life, Death and Paperclips on: December 07, 2010, 04:12:23
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If we assume there is nothing before life, (simply because our brain doesn't remember anything) once the individual knows something exists, that part of the paperclip will always be bent because why would you go back to nothingness when you could exist in somethingness.

It is really hard for someone to concieve of non-existence, since from the earliest anyone can think of, they have existed; it is thusly difficult, because an intrinsic first property of our minds is that they at the very least exist. The problem comes because we try to imagine non-existence from a perspective- the perspective of what it would be "like" to not exist, for instance; but this is a contradiction- the best way to imagine non-existence would be total lack of a perspective.

And it seems difficult to imagine it... but think of yourself when you are in a deep, dreamless sleep. I am not talking about REM, or when you are in a hazy reverie, but when you have pretty much no frontal lobe activity at all, deep in delta state. In a sense, there is a time when we are asleep that we are basically dead, as dark as that seems. And then... you begin to wake again, and it is almost like you came back into existence from nothingness, like you were created anew again. If you want to imagine non-existence, imagine that.

I am not saying that is final reality, mind you, but that is how you would conceive of the concept, as it really isn't the alien thing you might think.
1094  2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Welcome to 2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Re: 2012 swag on: December 07, 2010, 03:57:34
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agreed.  however, religion will always be mainstream, and i definitely think we are about to witness a new age religion "win out" over Islam/Christianity.  one that is more compatible with science.  the truth is ever changing and i don't see us all becoming astrological gurus by 2012, but i do see a smarter religion coming along that is associated with the occult and metaphysics, and perhaps this is why our entertainers have gone bat excrement insane.  not just in music either.

But religion usually only generally keeps a portion of the original founder's message, and surrounds it in a web of superstition, ritual, and mis-interpretations. It is definitely right to say religion is mainstream, and it inherits all the same flaws as mainstream thinking.


You might be right about the religious revolution, but I think that if any great change is coming, it will be an enormous wave of Islam. Islamic immigrants in Europe are far outpacing native birth rates in their respective new homes, and many have projected the Islamic sector to be the overwhelming wing of growth. The same is also true in Southeast Asia, where Islam is replacing Hinduism and Buddhism over time. At the rate we are going, Muslims will be a majority far more powerful than the Catholic church was in its heyday.
1095  2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Welcome to 2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Re: how many of you belive? on: December 07, 2010, 00:42:29
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I used to have the same mindset. But truth is you either BELIEVE in a Metaphysical Reality, or you dont. Your going to put yourself through hell pondering in between. I really cant do that any longer though.

Well, you could also take the stance that there is not enough information to make a final conclusion. Most of the philosophers I know don't have too many concrete beliefs, because they have been exposed to too much plurality, and have heard the counterargument to every metaphysical assertion.

It will really only bother you if you let it... and on some levels, regardless of the metaphysical reality, the way you live your life will be the same. If you believe in compassion and helping others, you will likely do so whether you believe in a god, some other metaphysical substrate, or neither of these; the same goes for seeking new or transcendent experiences, or for meditative practices. Many spiritual ways of life, such as some forms of Buddhism, are remarkably independent of any metaphysical framework that they might associate with.

 If you are unsure, you will find out soon enough (or you won't!  cool ). If you live without expectations, you will always be surprised!
1096  Metaphysics / Welcome to Metaphysics! / Re: Chee Soo - Taoist Master on: December 06, 2010, 20:33:46
You must return to the state of the unhewn log.
1097  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: Determinism vs Freewill on: December 06, 2010, 19:24:11


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An "immaterial mind" is not a good explanation for the free will question. Try explaining the concept of an immaterial mind to someone who's suffered a stroke and now has a completely different personality because of physical changes to their brain.

The stroke example is a strong argument for materialism, but still not a disproof of other suggested solutions to the mind-body problem. A proponent of mind-monism, for instance, could retort that perhaps the person's mind was participating in a physical simulation-type reality, in which the the mind and brain are intimately tied, but still not insepparable in the greater paradigm.

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if we are really matter reacting to stimuli, no matter how complicated those stimuli/reactions are, then those criminals were destined to commit their crimes at their moment of conception. Should they go free because they didn't choose to be born criminals? Absolutely not. Personally I think we can accept that free will is an illusion but still behave as if it exists.

Yes, I have often said this too. One of the reasons I don't believe in concept of punishment qua punishement is that there is no way to be certain that people are infact responsible for their actions, and capable of having done otherwise. I am okay with people being isolated for a time to protect other potential victims, but not in a harsh manner, or as punishment. More like quarantine, I guess, and only for the length of time necessary to know that they are not a likely danger.


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I guess it depends on what spiritual beliefs you subscribe to. If you're dead set on believing in a conscious soul that is somehow thinking thoughts separately from your physical mind, you're forced to believe in free will. There's no way to prove or disprove this theory so it's somewhat of a show-stopper if you're trying to have a discussion.

This is not true, since as I have pointed out, immaterialists are also subject to the same problems the materialist faced, just one level of reality higher. They still need to explain how immaterial substance is capable of making choices, since how would they justify the reason for one choice being made, and not another, if there was a possiblity for each to be made?

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There's some wiggle room if you think about quantum physics. I hate to bring up a topic I know so little about, but if there is true randomness at the atomic level then there's are possibly true undetermined outcomes in your brain matter, and thus your decision-making process. Whether this rolling of the dice equates to free will is another question altogether.

Yeah, that is a big grey area. I think my reason wants to side with the idea of "Bohmian mechanics", which states that quantum events only seem to have the appearance of randomacity because we do not fully understand all the forces, effects, and phenomena that happen at that level. For instance, say that there are vastly small sub-sub-atomic particles that are always coming into existence from the quantum vacuum, to fulfill some need of equilibrium in mass-energy topography, but then immediately self-annihilating with their anti-particles. This would saturate the sub-atomic landscape with unpredictable amounts of raw energy to be absorbed, and perhaps explain why those quantum events seemed to be occuring seemingly at random. I don't think quantum mechanics has found the finger of God, but rather just stumbled into a realm where our theory is jumping too far ahead of the ability of our current instruments to measure.

But perhaps these events truly are "random", and an insertion point for metaphysical influences. Who knows.
1098  Metaphysics / Welcome to Metaphysics! / Re: Frequency 528 Hz on: December 06, 2010, 18:58:31

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Take a look at what these people are doing for the polluted Gulf of Mexico... They have a lot of equipment that powerfully blasts out frequencies.

Hutchison Effect Cleans Gulf
Hutchison Effect Cleans Gulf Waters
Scientist John Hutchison Uses Frequency Healing to Restore The Gulf After BP Oil Spill
(at 7:14 she says "528"; at 13:36 the Solfeggio frequencies circle is shown)

Apparently it is working, based on all the sample reports.

Interesting. 
 
   

Yeah, but going back to the idea about making hard empirical claims, there is no way to test a conclusion like that. There are not two planet earths, each with an identical gulf spill, where they can experiment on the one, and leave the other untouched as a control. There is no way to say that any improvemnt being made was not something simply caused by geological processes over time, or by the actions of some other party using some other means at the same time.

 
1099  2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Welcome to 2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Re: LA Incident "movie"? on: December 05, 2010, 04:37:11
I was always entertained by Hollywood movies that depict battles between humanity and aliens. If aliens came, they would take what they want, period. And I suspect that perhaps they do. I have a feeling that despite what new-agers would tell you, aliens are likely to have radically different conceptions of ethics than we do, and they might easily condone doing things we would cringe at, and vice-versa. There are perhaps some entities with what we would think of as our best interest at heart, but also exceedingly likely are those who do as they please.

Assuming alien species exist, as I believe they do, we are still here, mostly unmolested, because

1) We are protected by some force or interest, or
2) We have nothing of value to take
1100  2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Welcome to 2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Re: 2012 swag on: December 04, 2010, 14:56:22
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I think the direction in which our hip hop/rock/pop stars have gone towards is most definitive of a hidden scheme to plant the seeds of truth within the minds of our youth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0iuQicb95g



The truth has never been mainstream. Kongzi (Confucious), Zhuangzi and Laozi (The two great Daoists) were all pretty much near enemies of the state, living on the fringe. Very little art or meaning comes from the accepted or popularly sanctioned channels.
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