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1151  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Re: Example of institution Norwegian gunman destined for exposes fallacy of Justice on: July 29, 2011, 03:04:50
I can. Income and property tax. Pure tyranny

Property taxes are indeed out of hand. It is difficult to argue against income taxes though; the government does need revenue afterall, to carry out all the programs that are necessary for the safety and productivity of society. I am far from saying everything the government does makes sense, is cost effective, or is necessary. But very much of what it does IS necessary, and it needs funding to do that. But then if you were against income taxes, why would it not be a big deal to you that corporate interests are lobbying to fill their prisons, which will be funded with tax money?

The prison system problem could have been solved overnight had the Democrat controlled House, Senate and White House simply legalized marijuana...

... but they didn't.

They didn't even try.

Yeah, the whole "war on drugs" thing is rather silly. The government should stay away from controlling substances which do not pose a danger to society if used moderately, and whose very prohibition directly generates other, far more serious crimes. Your argument there makes undeniable sense to me.
1152  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Re: Example of institution Norwegian gunman destined for exposes fallacy of Justice on: July 29, 2011, 01:17:13

Here's the first one, it didn't take me long.
Although I'm sure you'll argue that NPR is not a credible source, even though it 'names names'.  Whatever, what you believe is not my concern.
Here are more excerpts from various sources:
"SB 1070 was drafted with help from the American Legislative Exchange Council, which helps the private sector write legislation for states. CCA, which is slated to receive $74 million for immigration detention centers in the 2010 fiscal year, helps fund the group.

CCA also has close, direct ties with Arizona lawmakers. Gov. Jan Brewer’s deputy chief of staff formerly worked as a lobbyist for CCA — his wife still works as a lobbyist there — and Brewer’s campaign chairman runs a lobbying firm that represents the prison corporation."

"As for Arizona Governor Jan Brewer, who signed the bill into law on April 23, her spokesman, Paul Senseman, and her campaign manager, Chuck Coughlin, are both former lobbyists for private prison companies."

Sure, it's a coicidence.  I mean, why would anyone think that a private corporations group actually care for their own profits over anyone else's rights?

I have to agree, CFT. The primary problem is clear to see: when private companies are running the prisons, you now have corporate groups which have a vested interest in having as many people in their prison system, for as long as possible. I think it should be obvious why that is a conflict of interests. You now motivate companies to lobby for unecessarily harsh and lengthy punishments. I could not think of many things more costly and detrimental to society as a whole, and to the rights of individuals.
1153  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Re: Example of institution Norwegian gunman destined for exposes fallacy of Justice on: July 28, 2011, 07:12:24
If there are no consequences what is to stop others from committing the same crimes?

The best way to deter people from commiting crimes is to instill in them a disgust for causing harm at all. If rather than being attracted to carrying out violent acts, people were repulsed at the very thought, then you have far less to worry about.  Don't merely prevent through fear- that is weak.

Although I don't agree with Kongzi (Confucious) on everything, I think he is very wise about this point: he said something along the lines that if you need laws to guide the behavior of your citizens, in the most dire sense, you have already lost the fight. An honor-worthy society teaches its citizens to love and aspire to virtue; if you need to resort to law for control, you have already let animal motives run wild, and you have far more to worry about than what to prohibit- you will have a society of murders and thieves only kept in temporary check for as long as law can maintain it.

From another angle, I think it is also worth noting that punishments have proven to be ineffective deterrants to violent action. States with a death penalty don't generally have lower rates of violent crime. I think that it should be clear why that is- violent offenders don't operate on the principles of logic- the consequences that they will visit onto themselves are not relavent to them; and not caring about future consequences is one of the universal signs of mental illness, which violent offenders have been so often identified with. I think we need to understand that people who commit terrible acts are quite often lacking of some common decent quality. Merely condemning them I think is a lazy approach; I think it is braver to pity them, and give them a path for bettering themselves.
1154  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Re: Example of institution Norwegian gunman destined for exposes fallacy of Justice on: July 27, 2011, 22:54:34
I really don't care what his mental state is or will be. He took peoples lives, he should face consequences for that.

I appreciate what you are saying, but I guess what my thesis here is saying is that the fundamental concept of punishment and consequences in general may be at fault.

What is your argument for why there should be consequences? I mean that sincerely.

1155  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Re: Example of institution Norwegian gunman destined for exposes fallacy of Justice on: July 27, 2011, 22:16:08
Don't get me wrong, I think it is entirely possible that he may never develop far enough to be safe in public. But I think it is meaningless to make that judgement now.

I do think, as was said, that to suggest that some iron edict be laid now and forever that he shall never at any time be released is an emotional reaction. I think every case is circumstantial, and that people are capable of change over time. He may be a different person in 15 years, or maybe he won't be. I think at every moment in the game you can look the situation and make a judgement that is relavent to that time, and reflects his mental state then.

I don't see this as an issue of pacifism though; it is more about developing a society where law seeks the best interests of all people involved, and supports those who need support, and protects the safety of all, regardless of their condition.
1156  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Re: Example of institution Norwegian gunman destined for exposes fallacy of Justice on: July 27, 2011, 21:02:51
I agree that a superior society acts out of logic instead of emotion/vengeance towards its criminals. However, logic dictates that a government place the protection of the society above the quality of life of a criminal. Determinism really makes no difference here... criminals will be criminals, law enforcement will be law enforcement. Stiff consequences are as much about safety for the majority as it is punishment for the criminal. Eliminating the latter should not effect a proper legal/prison system. I think the guy should be kept away from society for longer than 21 years... more like the rest of his natural life. How he's handled during that period is another matter.

In the article they mentioned that under the Norwegian system they run screenings, and it is possible to extend the sentence of a person longer than the 21 years by 4-year increments if the person is still deemed to be a threat to society.

I assume from how it is descibed that there are careful psychological screenings to evaluate whether the individual is likely to commit further acts of violence, and that release is contingent on passing these screenings.

I don't think it is a question of needing a longer sentence in this case or any case, I think it is a question of treating and analyzing the individual in a conscientious enough manner that it can be determined when the person has grown past the original state they were in at the time of the crime. I think if the course of therapy is dedicated enough, it would take far less than 20 years.

Thus his release to me would depend not so much on years, but on when he was deemed to have grasped the meaning of his actions, and was taught to approach his emotions in a less destructve manner, and when qualified screeners were able to determine he ran little risk of repeating similar behaviors.
1157  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Example of institution Norwegian gunman destined for exposes fallacy of Justice on: July 27, 2011, 19:16:36

When I first read of the story of the Norwegian tragedy, I think the most important thing for me in the whole article I read was the minor detail that if convicted, the gunman would face a maximum sentence of 21 years.

Let's step back a moment. If the same incident occurred in the US., with a single gunman bombing an executive government building, and murdering 100 children, an American Jury would be likely to vote to unanimously execute the individual. In fact, you can get a 20-year sentence merely for possessing enough marijuanna or other scheduled substance.

I was thinking this about a week ago, and about the implications of the approach of these two countries, and their mindsets; then today, I found this wonderful story. This story pleased me very much, in that classic "shock the bourgeoisie" line of humor that challenges middle-class value systems.:,0

The intent of the article is pretty clear- it seems targeted to generate a sense of "moral outrage" at the ammenities which are provided to the prisoners- jogging track in a park setting, pesonl trainers, flat-screen televisions in cell, encouragement to pursue creative activities and music, a recording studio for musicians, a rock-climbing wall, private bathrooms, etc.

I think what this article hammers home though, is the fact that the Norwegian legal system has lost faith in the idea of "justice".

In the US., it is believed that in order to provide a sense of "just fairness", it is necessary to visit the wrongdoings and sufferings criminals cause back onto themselves; people who cause harm should be harmed. Let's look at some of the realities, however. People who commit violent crimes, in nearly every case, fit into three categories: those who are mentally ill, those who were themselves victims of terrible acts in their childhood, and those called by poverty or socially traumatic environments into a mindset that one must steal or fight in order to make it in their situation.

The first set is curious in a way, since our legal system is lenient on the mentally ill, understanding that if a person is not in full control of their faculties, they cannot be counted on to act in a way that makes sense from our view of reality; oddly enough, however, I think our system tends to ignore this mitigating circumstance in violent crimes, and punishes people for merely being mentally ill. Likewise, I think our system tends to ignore the violent past many of these people have, that helps to shape them into becoming the person who commited the crime. And finally, not only does our mindset not make allowance for the fact that some feel forced into the lifestyle by circumstances they can't control, it is actually considered an aggravating factor to commit an act in a gang setting, when the reality is that gang members view their peers as their final social support group.

Going further, let's see what the fruits of this system of punishments is: rather than being counseled and treated for mental conditions, and helped to address their problems and deal with them internally, our system in the US. produces people who have been forced to live in a dangerous and hostile environment for decades, suffering rape and being forced to participate in racial-violence, and learning that the only way for them to be safe on a day-to-day basis is to show violent aggression to any who would challenge them. We take traumatized criminals who have committed violent acts in society, and we place them in a hyper-traumatic, hyper-violent environment for countless years, and then marvel that they come out even more violent and desperate.

And the premise that all of this is built on is the idea that people are responsible for their actions- we feel it is just to punish someone for doing ill if they had the ability to make another choice, and still chose to do wrong. But then, are we entirely sure people are even making choices, and are capable of more than one action in any situation? The prevailing scientific paradigm is materialism, and materialism overwhelmingly implies philosophical determinism. If determinism is true, then no one is truly "responsible" for anything they ever do, good or bad. They did not make the choice to act in the way they did- the universe and the conditions and physical laws governing them produced the outcome, not any illusion of choice a person made. So there is clearly a cognitive dissonance in what we believe about the universe (scientific materialism, which implies determinism), and what we think about people and their actions (that people are responsible for what they do and think, even though determinism would forbid this).

So if all of this is true so far, we have a legal system which visits vengence upon criminals, and for actions they may not even be technically responsible for according to our science, and which produces individuals who are rendered even more dangerous to society by their sufferings. Rather than allow them to explore their mental issues, and to work through their problems and become stable individuals who are far less likely to commit desperate acts of harm against others, we allow quasi-religious fallacies about "justice" to prevent us from doing what is best for the criminals and the society they must later interact with.

So oddly enough, rather than being morally outraged about the treatment the Norwegian gunman may receive, I would go so far as to say it is the laudable example of a superior society of people who have had the mental discipline to see through ideas like social vengence, and the foolishness of the idea of punishment, and to take the course of action which rather than vicitimize criminals themselves, is able to see them as victims of their own past and situation, and to help they become greater than they were.
1158  Metaphysics / Welcome to Quantum Physics! / Re: Theory - We are one with everything on an Atomic level.[not correct] on: July 25, 2011, 19:03:26
Honestly, I doubt science will ever explain anything like this.  We'll need to move beyond science eventually.

Whatever that next step is, who knows.  lol

I don't think it is a question of moving beyond science- it is not that the answers live in some magical realm not accessible to scientific discourse; I think it is more a question of gradually broadening science to encompass these new areas in its consideration.

Scientists practicing today are definitely acting under confirmation bias towards materialist answers, and are committing the unscientific error of looking for positive reinforcement, while ignoring the possibility of the cases that disprove materialism as a direct answer; but it is not a flaw with science per se, but rather those who practice science today; they can be prey to accidental dogmas and presumptions, and artificially constrict the set of what is discussed, but the flaw lies in humans, not in the concept of science.

But I think maybe that is what you mean, in a more literal sense- you feel it is time to move beyond conventional assumptions, I am guessing.
1159  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Have anyone tried OBE with DMT? on: July 23, 2011, 21:50:22
So did I.

dot dot dot

1160  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Have anyone tried OBE with DMT? on: July 23, 2011, 11:41:38
I just today watched a fascinating youtube video named The 2012 Enigma by David Wilcock. He speaks of DMT and Pineal Gland in a very informative way. He has truly put a lifes research into this subject. A must see for all the great science minds of this site. The presentation goes into Astral Travel as well. The presentation has 10 nine minute plus parts to it. He is also about to release a brand new video on youtube named Convergence sometime this month.

You have to be really careful with people like Wilcock. He throws pretty much everything out there at once into the hall, free-for-all fashion; he also has a very bad habit of presenting suppositions and leaps of faith as facts. I am not saying some of the things he says are not true, but I think it is damn-near impossible that everything he says at once could be possibly all be true; therefore, every element of what he says must be suspect, and so I would only use him as a source of awareness of ideas, not support of any idea.
1161  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Has anyone seen this shadow creature too ? (i made a painting) on: July 22, 2011, 21:25:37
Literally, it could have been just about anything.

Haha, yeah, this.


Going a little further though, seeing "shadow people" seems to be a common thing in communities like this. I myself have never seen them, but I feel like I must have read something on the order of 50 instances of such accounts over the years. Usually when this topic comes up, there are like 5 other people saying... "Yeah, I saw those guys too! No idea what they are"...

If I had to lend a guess, I would maybe say that they are an archetype buried in our genetically shared subconscious; they may represent some deep-seated fear, which in a state of OBE or similar can gain personification.
1162  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Have anyone tried OBE with DMT? on: July 22, 2011, 21:18:38
From my research, people seem to get a lot more out of Ayahuasca than smoked DMT.

I also have found that seems to be the case.

Which is part of why I suggest that if you are someone who wants to get involved with that stuff, and accept the risks, you do it within the context of one of the South American traditions, and their offshoots; they know the territory, and have a better idea about precautions and safety than random folk on the street, since they have codefied their techniques over centuries.
1163  2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Welcome to 2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Re: Mars plus 2012-2013 on: July 21, 2011, 22:33:46
That is a rather remarkable lecture session.

I have seen enough of remote viewing to know that it seems to produce verfiable results in many cases, by who-knows-what mechanism.

I am genuinely intrigued to see followups on this series of trials, and explorations into what the structures might be.

The idea that humans from earth might even now be on mars... that is a notion with impact.
1164  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Have anyone tried OBE with DMT? on: July 21, 2011, 11:06:02
Call it a "drug" or whatever you want, we release a certain amount of DMT every day of our lives during sleep.

But calling it a substance endogenous to the human body does nothing to alter the claim that it is unsafe under some conditions.

We all have reasonable amounts of adrenaline from time to time, but a not-so-very-large injection of it will give you a heart attack.

The same with acetylcholine and other neurotransmitters... flooding them into the body may create temporary catatonic states or worse.

So to say that DMT is released naturally does not really say much in this context.
1165  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: AP and shamanic journey on: July 19, 2011, 15:18:27
As someone who is starting this type of pathworking, I think that they are generally similar to what can be considered the planes- I think for example, that Middle Earth is the Real Time Zone and the lower and upper worlds are regions in the astral

Middle Earth... Middle Earth... you mean... where these guys live...?

Sorry, carry on!
1166  Astral Chat / Welcome to News and Media! / Re: China passed law forbidding the Dalai Lama from reincarnating on: July 19, 2011, 15:10:25
It is hard to say. The Chinese are on a decisive economic upswing, and are biding their time well, waiting for the proper time to come into full influence reflective of their material and martial strength.

On the other hand, the future of the Chinese government is uncertain. Great sentiments for change have been coming from the the people for decades now. No one is satisfied with the iron rule that has been the example of late. I think as China rises, there will in parallel be a massive social revolution, similar in scope to the one Maozedong led that brought the Communist party into power. Let's hope for the sake of the Chinese people and the people who will feel China's influence that it is a change for the better.
1167  Astral Chat / Welcome to News and Media! / China passed law forbidding the Dalai Lama from reincarnating on: July 19, 2011, 08:56:54

This was a funny one to me. Apparently the Chinese government, in order to further its claim on Tibet, has signed into effect a law that forbids the Dalai Lama and other Tibettan clerial dignitaries such as the Panchen Lama (whom the Chinese government abducted when he was a child, and holds captive) from returning to Tibet in their next incarnation.

As usual, I think it is safe to say the Chinese government is out of touch with reality again.

The Dalai Lama himself has recently denied his own relavence in Tibet's struggle for independence, and has said the movement will continue regardless of whether he is present or not.
1168  2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Welcome to 2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Re: Possible variation of Bitcoin to unify stock market & collective consciousness on: July 19, 2011, 05:24:45

Point 2. is off a little (competition did not create wealth)

It is not the only factor, but it is still an important one. Competition ensures that if there are enough potential companies with the knowledge and resources to produce a significantly superior product (a computer with 4 times the capability of the model 3 years back; a new industrial robot with astronomically higher efficiency rating; a safer water filtration filter system; greater agricultural output, etc), then a single company cannot easily deny the market that improved product without collusion among the total industry to prevent progress.

There are two main ways you can increase wealth of an individual- you can provide the ability to procure a greater volume of aquistions, or the ability to procure aquisitions of better quality. What I am describing as wealth here is a mixture of value (the value of what labor can purchase) and quality which is thought to translate into quality of life.

The competition inherent to the system, when it is not artificially supressed by powerful monopolies, or by industry-wide collusion, will allow a common person to purchase more with their labor, and better quality than their counterpart 100 years back- that equates to wealth creation to me.

Were it not for the idiot toys, more car and house than is needed, absurd vacations, maxed out credit card debt at 15% or higher, nonstop flow of mood altering substances... etc.

This is true to an extent- the American lifestyle can be condemned on some levels; there are all kinds of ways, however, to end up pennyless without commiting a fault or an excess. If someone in your family gets a serious form of cancer, for instance, even if you have fairly good health-insurance, you can expect to be drained of savings, and lose your home and all of your assets, potentially. It is obviously not like that in every case, but our country makes it far too easy for medical debts to impoverish anyone.

The problem isn't the Presidents... the problem is Congress.


I think your claim about corporate wealth being concentrated in the hands of the Board is simply false.

It wasn't so much a claim, but rather part of a conditional statement. ("if" being key here- if that condition were to be met, then "x" would be implied.) It was stated as the necessary prerequisite to the effect that I suggested (the "phoenix" idea), not necessarily that it was a common condition.
1169  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Have anyone tried OBE with DMT? on: July 19, 2011, 04:49:24
As far as mushrooms go, you can be smart about it and follow proper identification procedures, or better yet grow them yourself.

That is hard too, however. There are so many variants and look-alikes among mushroom species, and they can all look so very similar, morphologically identical in fact, that even highly trained mycologists cannot identify a mushroom on sight with any sureness (they have a few guesses usually, but nothing definitive)- they often need to rely on chemical analysis.

So if you are thinking of looking for them in the woods, you are playing with fire, based on the number of highly toxic look-alikes. Cultivating a positively identified species is probably the only way to be sure.
1170  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Have anyone tried OBE with DMT? on: July 18, 2011, 20:01:15
That said, you still run risks. You need responsible "spotters" around you, since you will not maintain control, and will potentially become a danger to yourself or others in possible delusional states.

The same thing can be said about cigarettes and alcohol.  The best thing to do is to take these substances moderately or not at all.  I'm pretty sure that if I overindulge in other things like bacon sandwiches, there will be repercussions.

But then, I am not advocating cigarrettes or alcohol. Alcohol is a terribly dangerous substance regardless of what box our society places it in. I never said either of those were without risks, or that a person would be wise to use either, so they are beyond the the scope of the idea here.

I agree that moderation is key, but with hallucinogens, which are such a taboo in our culture that no one has any experience with them to guage, and with other complicating factors, such as the fact that most of them are derived from plants and fungi (allowing the concentration of psychoactive agents to vary wildly from specimen to specimen), there is often no way for an initiate to know exactly what dosage is "moderate", or what effects they should expect at what point per dosage level. It is damn obvious how to you when you have eaten 5 too many bacon sandwhiches, but how many mushrooms are too many? How much do you weigh? How big are they? How "ripe" are they? What strain are they? Are they psilocybin-based, or something else? You see, there is really no way to account for all the factors at once- there is only so much control you can have. It is good to advocate moderation, but there needs to be an index to go by. With hallucinogens, you are generally in the dark about that, and don't really know what level you have ingested except in retrospect. That is why it is essential for those who engage in these activities to absolutely respect the substances they are dealing with, and to practice within a seasoned and responsible support group.

I think there are contexts in which a person can practice the meaningful spiritual use of psychoactives, and be surrounded by people who know the territory, but you cannot separate the act from the inherent risks. I am not saying don't do it, but I am saying know what you are getting into, and consider your reasons.
1171  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Have anyone tried OBE with DMT? on: July 18, 2011, 17:15:40
Most psychodelics tend to be among the "safer" drugs, since you can't generally overdose or be poisoned (you need to ingest literally impossible quanties of LSD to overdose from it- no one has managed 1/100th the amount).

That said, you still run risks. You need responsible "spotters" around you, since you will not maintain control, and will potentially become a danger to yourself or others in possible delusional states.

Beyond that, the long-term consequences of hallucinogens are not known at all, really, and are incredibly diffcult to isolate and study. There are many cases of pscychotic episodes after "bad trips" or particularly high dosages- DMT trippers included.

If you really insist on proceding however, DMT is one of the the more accepted shamanistic rites, with a traditional support system. Ayahuasca rituals still occur in Brazil and some exported groups in the U.S., if that is within your reach.

DMT is powerful tool, but perhaps you are also underestimating what can be achieved merely with long-session meditations. I would say that is the safest and most fool-proof method for naturally exploring your consciousness.

1172  Integral Philosophy / Welcome to Integral Philosophy! / Re: Pay To Not Save A Life - I Am Planning A Legal Murder on: July 18, 2011, 15:16:53
Giving charitable donations to humanitarian causes is important, worthy, and meaningful.

That said, most of the regions of the world where people are in constant risk of starvation are like that for social reasons, rather than any lack of wealth. Places where you see children starving in commercials are generally being run by paramilitary groups which are creating artificial scarcity and selectively oppressing segments of their population, or where powerful indsustries have seized control of all the raw materials and amenities in order to use the natives as slave labor for exporting their own resources.

Giving money to causes like Oxfam does save lives, but it is also important to notice that it also tends to build a culture of dependancy- in the best cases, the people being served have no other means to support themselves, and become reliant on charity as a stable way of living; in the worst cases, the supplies see their way back to the same paramilitary groups who were the source of the suffering to begin with, and end up feeding armies. In order to truly save lives on a grand scale in these situations, what must be done is literal social revolution: regimes must topple, armies must be routed, predatory industries must be exposed, and people's belief about the structure of their societies must change.

So saving lives is in a narrower sense about money, yes, but to free people from the conditions that brough them to the brink to begin with, we need to recognize that it is social institutions that are the real source of the suffering, and set our sights accordingly.
1173  2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Welcome to 2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Re: Possible variation of Bitcoin to unify stock market & collective consciousness on: July 18, 2011, 14:21:09
Quote from: Stillwater on Yesterday at 05:56:32
Free market capitalism and factional reserve banking have indeed produced vast sums of wealth through competition and expansion of availible capital. I do think it is more than fair though to point out that several evils have also arisen in parallel; it is quite utopian to think that an unregulated free-market is either the absolute best system that could exist, or that we have access to developing.

Indeed? Indeed what? No one has made this claim. Again I want to point out this trick of replying to something that was not said in order to pretend that a refutation of a threatening truth has been made.
[note: I am simply pointing out a mostly Leftist self-deceptive weakness here and I am not trying to make an outright accusation of overt dishonesty.]

No one made any claim to, "the absolute best system that could exist, or that we have access to developing"

The statement connected to yours, to which the "indeed" was attached, was idea of wealth creation, which you brought up earlier:

Free market Capitalism and the Central Banking system did more to increase the wealth of the common man than any other system in the history of mankind.

The latter part of the statement was not directed at any previous argument, but rather was an introduction to the rest of the post- it was not intended as a refutation.

My statements are not meant to support a "leftist" agenda, however. I don't support either side of our false political dichotomy, if you connect that to the parties. I am ashamed of pretty much every president since Eisenhower and Kennedy.

My claim was that Free Market capitalism along with "Central Banking" (not 'factional reserve banking'... why did you alter the claim in that manner?)

They are of course not identical, but I chose to look at central banking through the lens of fractional reserve as this is the main mechanism that has allowed the banking system to make so much capital availible from so little.

The evils that have arisen at the same time are not a reflection of any characteristic inherent in that economic system but an expression of the creative capacity of the Souls that now are empowered, through monetary wealth, to generate positive or negative outcomes consistent with their level of Conscious Awareness and Spiritual Development.

The problem is NOT capitalism.

The problem is people.

(Lazy, dishonest, thieving people to be more exact.)

Human nature is, as you say, a massive part of the issue, but with this understanding (that the systems in question will be run by humans), we have to see our economic systems in the real-world contexts that they must function in. Capitalism itself may not be inherently flawed, but a capitalist system run by present-day humans will almost of necessity develop these same problems described. We don't need to drop capitalism per se, but rather guide the system with preventitive and protective measures which compensate for what is lacking in human nature. We don't need the govnernment running the show- we all know how inefficient that is-but there do need to be checks in place that prevent corporate interests from serving their own needs at the expense of society.

But let us be clear about this and understand - the USA is not run by a democratic system. It is a Representative Republic. Though, those Representatives *are* democratically elected. It might seem like a nit-pik but the distinction becomes critical down the road a bit. (As the Citizens of Athens discovered, "any democracy is doomed as soon as the electorate discovers that they can vote themselves benefits from the public coffers"... true and pure Democracies are a very bad idea -- the Founding Fathers rejected "Democracy" in order to avoid the "Tyranny of the masses").

Yes, quite correct. That is why I say "democracy" (as in, democracy in name only).

All Corporations must dissolve and liquidate all assets and distribute those assets to the shareholders at the age of 75 years ... or some other number roughly equivalent to the average lifespan of a normal human being.

This is an interesting concept. It looks like you are connecting the idea of a corporation as personification of a company as it is understood today to the other typical features a person has. I can't accept or dismiss the idea... I would have to think about it, as this is the first I have encountered it, but it is novel. It seems like it might have some drawbacks though, since if the majority shareholders are simply the board of directors, they retain the the lion's share of the wealth of the company at the dissolution point, and can recreate a nearly identical company from that liquidated capital. But I am sure the idea also has some merits.

1174  2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Welcome to 2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Re: Possible variation of Bitcoin to unify stock market & collective consciousness on: July 17, 2011, 03:56:32

Free market capitalism and factional reserve banking have indeed produced vast sums of wealth through competition and expansion of availible capital. I do think it is more than fair though to point out that several evils have also arisen in parallel; it is quite utopian to think that an unregulated free-market is either the absolute best system that could exist, or that we have access to developing.

It is fair to speak of the benefits, but let's also take inventory of the faults:

1) Since the U.S. runs by a "democratic" system, influencing public opinion will directly control who is elected and what policies they bring; control of media is in the hands of monied interests who finance them; therefore, having the ability to amass large sums of capital directly translates into ability to controll public opinion, and to partially dictate policy as a result. Add to this the fact that monied interests have been shown time and time again to have even more direct and powerful effect on policy through lobbyists, and it begins to seem like it is money righting the laws, not the public interest.

2) The profit motive which guides any and all possible successful companies under such a system generally leads to safe and clean products and procedures, but these are also not top priority- obviously profit is. We can't depend on corporations to regulate their own practices to benefit the whole of humanity's life safety, it is just not in their gameplan. Multi-nationals have proven time and time again they will dump carcinogens into the environment, release sub-standard and dangerous drugs, destroy necessary genetic diversity in agriculture (I'm looking in your direction, Monsanto), and buy-out more progressive and efficient products to continue to profit in the market they have come to dominate. In other words, corporations have given us some good things, but we need to understand that they are entities who are driven by profit above all else.

3) It is generally in the interest of companies to develop more advanced and efficient products and techniques, but as mentioned previously, if they are incapable of expanding into these progressive niches, they will actually block the progress of others as well, to continue to sell outdated and destructive products. For instance, are you telling me the country who figured out how to get the moon using slide-rulers in the 60's can't develop more efficient means of travel than hydracarbon-burning engines, or even advance these more than 30% or so over the course of more than half a century? It is quite hard to argue with artificial delay of progress in cases like these, and it is easy to see in who's interest such delays are occurring.

4) Corporate interest is dictated by short-term gains and quarterly profits. Solutions to our primary problems in society must be conceived of and implemented over the course of a decade or more sometimes. Thus, companies lack the motivation to advance forward-thinking strategies that require time and capital investments, since they cannot glean immediate profits from them. They are forced by the lean necessities of present competition to forgo developing solutions that would not only benefit their own coffers in the long-run, but also all of mankind. Case in point- the Japanese model: the Japanese government plays a far more active role in control of and planning of business efforts (some would so oppressively so, but let's put that aside for now); companies are actually expected to have 50-year plans for growth and development, rather than merely quarterly ones. The result: The Japanse infrastructure, despite economic troubles they faced in the 80's and elsewhere, is enviable by any standards; they have one of if not the most advanced rail-systems for transporting people and freight efficiently at extrememly low cost; they have some of the newest and most well-serviced factory equipment anywhere, and they have an unprecedented amount of automation multiplying production-rates- the Japanese alonea re in possession of about half of the world's industrial robots. So in short, a small island country who was among the losers of a world-war has potentially the greatest infrastructure per-capita of any country in the world.

5) By nature of the "interest" system which dominates our banking structure, wealth is guaranteed to flow out of the hands who possess the least of it, and even money which is saved is guaranteed to deflate in value over-time. When the government prints more currency to pay its debts, it is essentially imposing a from of indirect tax which is invisible to most, but incredibly powerful, as it saps the value directly out of all the U.S. currency anyone who possesses it, including U.S. citizens, and other comapines possessing U.S. debt money, and U.S. currency to trade for oil. Interest also facilitates this kind of tax, but in a more direct way, and as a way of taxing poor people for being poor. Bankining interests can sometimes obtain 2-3 times the value of a real-estate loan merely by interest; and add to this the fact that the fractional reserve system allows them to loan the same money to 10 or so different parties, means that they can multiply the same money in their hands 2000-3000%. This is another way that wealth is guaranteed to leave the hands of the lower class and concentrate into the hands of those who already possess all the capital. Add to this yet another form of taxation interest introduces: since the amount of money is equivalent to all principle possessed, any interest which is due based on that principle is money in excess of what exists. Since now more money is owed than exists, the amount of money needs to grow to compensate, and must deflate in value all the money that existed previously.

Now asking for solutions to these problems is not the same as Communism, which has been demonstrated to be a poltical accident. It is clear that very much good comes from market competition, and that a healthy society needs it to function and grow. This does not mean, however, that companies can be trusted to have everyone's best interests at heart, and will swiftly advance society in an 18th-century magical invisbile air-fairy-hand sort of way (why are we trusting people who never traveled faster than a horse can run, or lived in a world not controlled by state churches with our economic advice?).

It is grossly obvious to any observer that companies can be counted on to place profit above any other goal; this is okay, since once we understand what kind of animals they are, and what their place in society is, we can put in place regulation to use their productive abilities in a contructive manner which can be controlled for the good of all. When we allow corporations to run out of controll, and to amass so much wealth they actually begin to write laws into effect to further their own goals by virtue of the leverage their current wealth already possesses, we clearly have a monster on the loose. I don't care if you call it socialism or bearcloudfoolery, we need a harmony between private interests and companies, and government interests which have a view of the bigger picture in mind, which can regulate companies into producing solutions which make sense in the long term. It is not about a giant shadowy government that controlls everything (eveyrone knows the government is too damn big, and has too many powers), it is about understanding what rights and powers the government needs, and which ones it doesn't. The same people who are angry about the government getting larger and more powerful always somehow seem okay with laws being passed which limit the righst of individuals, and which expand the rights of corporations; so it is not about how big government is- it is about what needs controlling and what doesn't, and how govnerment can work in harmony with coporate interest, without allowing it to run amok.

1175  2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Welcome to 2012 and The Transition of the Ages / Re: What will REALLY happen in 2012 on: July 17, 2011, 02:39:34
In 2012 it is predicted that earth will leave the current elemental stage and enter spirit.

Predicted by who? This is a crucial detail, haha  wink
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