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26  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: Best guide for meditations for adhd? on: March 01, 2018, 07:47:34
You do realize that the person that you are replying to, in this case Xanth, didn't have any success for 10 years, yet he still kept practicing. That's determination in my books. That rises above and beyond the call of duty and I sincerely applaud that!  cool

I didn't know. It is determination, but you still need to be making some measurable progress to continue active practice for that long. If one does the same thing for 10 years and expects different results, we call the condition insanity. Maybe that's where I will find myself in 8 more years if I'm still practicing.

I'll just be up front and say astral projection might not be worth 10 years of practice to me if that is really what it takes to achieve it. As Xanth often points out today, it isn't necessarily very beneficial for spiritual growth or our purpose here to astral project. I have come to that conclusion early.

If those conclusions are really correct, wouldn't we be better served putting those 10 years directly in spiritual growth or some other PMR goal like helping people?

That line of thinking is why I ramped down the number of hours per week I practice projection. I was spending 10's of hours per week initially but that came at the cost of progressing my other projects, so I had to find a balance and put AP on the slow grind track.
27  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: Best guide for meditations for adhd? on: March 01, 2018, 06:36:16
The problem isn't in the program or implementation... the problem is that most people don't REALLY want to learn.
They want something fast... the "NOW" generation, they want everything now but don't want to put in the time and energy to learn it.

I'm part of that generation group in my opinion. I arrived here looking for a way to achieve astral projection fast and I believed it would work within a handful of attempts too. It didn't, yet some of those early attempts got closer or as close as I have subsequently, if you exclude the rare spontaneous conscious projections.

I wanted it fast and now, but I was willing to learn, put in time and energy. I have a high tolerance for failure though and I'm tenacious, so here I am still talking about astral projection 2 years or more later, despite limited success.

Truthfully I think the time and energy required to learn projection is not the issue. The issue is that the learning experience is far more difficult than anything we are normally exposed to in life. I completed a honors degree in engineering and that was easy compared to astral projection, yet one of those things takes 4 years, whereas the other can be achieved in 4 minutes or might require unbounded time and energy.

Engineering was relatively easy because its one year at a time, one paper at a time. The progress is measurable, you don't slip backwards. There is a logical path from A to B that is tangible, process driven, and almost guaranteed to work if you simply follow the steps.

Astral projection is more like walking out into the dark with a general direction. If you trip over a log that was a sign post towards success. I feel people give up on the time and energy because they can't measure their progress and there is no guaranteed process to improve your results. Those latter two conditions are actually something that is considered to be required for someone to enter the flow state (immersion in a given focus).

Once you have seen the entire process unfold once or twice I imagine it becomes much easier to measure your progress and know when you are being successful, in turn entering the flow state becomes possible. I have done a lot of experiments on e-sports with flow state and I find that the ability to enter flow is coupled to how good your process is, not the effort put in to playing well.
28  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: The Drayton Manifest Technique (My New Method) on: February 28, 2018, 07:04:49
This is how some projectors mess up their practice; they'll change their breathing pattern abruptly after becoming aware of breathing automatically which causes you to dip in and out of the mind awake body asleep state. (because you keep refocusing on the physical instead of the nonphysical, which anchors you from separating so to fix this simply keep doing the 4-7-8 breathing until you breathe normal naturally.)

For me this problem is the most difficult part of conscious projection. The trouble is that changing the pattern abruptly is something that just happens rather than being deliberate. The way I experience it is essentially the not thinking about elephants problem. Becoming aware of breathing automatically is logically coupled to refocusing on the physical. Sometimes I feel like the realization that breathing has changed wasn't even possible without physical focus as a pre-requisite.

I have only ever found two routes to follow upon realizing breathing has changed. The first route is do nothing, and it results in a breath hold that messes up the state. The second being do something which is also a change in the breathing pattern that messes up the state. Just going back to automatic breathing is not something I can do in that moment, it isn't something I can do in normal waking life either. Any tips?
29  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: Best guide for meditations for adhd? on: February 27, 2018, 08:20:16
I don't have hyperactivity but I do have attention deficit and obsessive compulsive negative thoughts. Its a problem no doubt but it can be worked around with some understanding. Although I am yet to fulfill it I believe it can even be an asset for this art, my most impressive precognitions that came true dramatically and within seconds were obtained through the day dreams that are typical of attention deficit.

People with these conditions are good natural projectors and tend to do it accidentally to a lesser extent several times a day. It becomes a liability when we try to brute force our focus on a particular objective like phasing or empty minded meditation. My experience can be easily summarized as No Fun = No Focus.

Wrestlers say that self control and disciple is a muscle that can be made strong or weak. It actually relates in some ways to our evolutionary biology and the circuitry that governs risk taking. A tempting new thought when you need to focus, is like a tempting new partner with a husband. If you take the risk and are not punished we are more likely to repeat that choice without resistance. We can end up with no self control or even semblance of resistance when it comes to abandoning the current thought for one with a more promising dopamine output.

I haven't been able to beat this trap yet, it requires rewiring of the brain through diligent thought control, but what I have recognized is that people with attention deficit tend to hyper focus well when having fun. My suggestion is to re-frame your approach on the basis of making it truly fun. If there is a more attractive concept available you will keep jumping to that.
30  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Ayahuasca on: February 22, 2018, 13:08:10
-The idea of altered states of consciousness as a tool to fix your life

I don't disagree with what you said about taking personal responsibility.

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It will not fix you by itself.

That's not a rule, some people have been "fixed" to a significant degree with a single experience at both ends of the "broken" spectrum. It really depends on what the individual's issue is and how easy it is to learn from the experience.

I can see why you were concerned by Bloodshadow's initial post in this thread though. Sometimes we write in a way to convey an emotion or experience to the reader, but what is written isn't necessarily literally true, writing what was really true wouldn't get the message across. I think that might be what is happening here.

I have gone through periods of desperation to access NPR too. It's been a life long dream for me. Maybe it reaches a point where you just have to know or its your time to know, but for whatever reason its difficult naturally. I see taking the drug like the red pill - blue pill scene in the matrix. Its a physical version of the same point of no return we face when projecting naturally. My friend that is also an AP enthusiast often suggests that we do Ayahausca. My intuition says that the knowing experience will probably be natural for me in this lifetime.
31  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Ayahuasca on: February 22, 2018, 04:24:44
Haha, I don't mind if you jump on my back. It is laminated from the heat and pressure of hundreds of forum debates, I live in that fire lol. Not seeking to lead anyone anywhere, I'm just going to represent DMT with my best understanding.

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You can use it for that one time "sneak peek". But you will have limited or no control over your environment or many times even yourself.

Partially true, with the trip reports in the book The Spirit Molecule most people felt in control of themselves with a familiar and somewhat sober mindset. Control of the environment is less common, not unheard of, but usually the value in the trips comes from the interaction you have with other entities in their environment, its alright to be out of control a little. We aren't talking about anything resembling catapulting through the universe in the vast majority of these trips, although that was my preconception.

I got my sneak peeks into the astral without drugs, however, it is interesting to note that those peeks and all my subsequent experiences have left me unconvinced at a core being level that anything exists outside of myself and 3d reality. On the other hand, interaction with the machine elves in their own environment is an undeniable shock to the core being. As much as I logically believe in these entities, I think experiencing them first hand would be life changing for me. I don't know if I have a point here, maybe its that I can imagine a DMT sneak peek having a greater long term impact than my sneak peeks did.

It is correct to say that DMT trips are not necessarily consistent or repeatable, and my impression is that they are not a long term or regular use tool. There are actually cases of the machine elves asking people not to return if they use DMT too much. I respect the mission to find "some kind of process that brings consistent results". I've been on that game plan since I joined too.

32  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Ayahuasca on: February 21, 2018, 03:18:22
I think you guys might be underestimating the potency of a DMT experience. I have never done Ayahuasca but I have read a lot about it in various trip reports and anecdotes from people I know, in addition to reading DMT the spirit molecule.

When I look back at the astral projection experiences I have had, dream based or conscious exits, the most significant life changing moments; DMT truly is a magic pill by comparison and a gateway to higher astral dimensions that most of us have never accessed before.

I think our conventional wisdom is that the clearer and more focused our minds are, the higher the dimensions we are able to reach and the more tangible and intense the experiences become.

This principle is taken nigh to the utmost with DMT because you truly are wide awake, even hyper awake during the transition to a new reality. It is common to immediately enter into the societies of other conscious beings that are not only capable of high level communication, but are aware of the fact you are coming and are expecting you.

The dimensional heights it is possible to reach and the sheer intensity of the experience blow most astral projections out the water. I'm sure that you can match and exceed these experiences without DMT too. My point is simply that DMT should not be underestimated in terms of intensity or long term benefits.
33  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Willpower's role in AP on: January 30, 2018, 09:05:20
Well, I'm a compulsive can opener grin, but I am not certain I understand the topic correctly.

Maybe the statement could be rephrased as "It doesn't matter what one intends to do when attempting Astral Projection as far as success goes, the aptitude is in the genetics of the projector."

I can definitely think of examples of genetic conditions that could hamper one's ability to project, but then it is difficult not to spiral off into nature vs nurture discussions. Many of the aspects pertinent to projection are mental and feel more learned than intrinsic to me.
34  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Re: New Insidious movie Creature on: January 26, 2018, 02:35:10
To speak generally, lots of Hollywood movies contain easter eggs or pieces of secret information. Suppose you had insider knowledge of suppressed technology such as teleportation machines. You can't make an announcement about it and be safe, or taken seriously. Instead you put the technology in a movie like The Prestige as a "fictitious" invention by Tesla. We don't give it a second thought necessarily, yet it subliminally enters the consciousness of the public and primes us to learn about these things.

It doesn't just apply to science fiction inventions. It is common for paranormal entities to be portrayed in movies that are based on true myths or experiences. The old Star Trek series depicted many entities like this and sometimes exploited alleged real weaknesses of these entities, such as EMP blasts and AI.

The witch from the scene looks like a generic horror entity, maybe there is a real family of bad entities out there which we tend to perceive like a witch. There are entities that we tend to perceive as jesters or similar on a consistent basis such as the machine elves, so why not. So, I don't think the movie and the experience you had necessarily depict the same being, but it could depict a family of common entities and the construct experiences people have with them.
35  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Willpower's role in AP on: January 22, 2018, 03:17:11
Brilliant replies guys, I think I can let go of this belief trap now.

@Nameless - What do you mean when you say you think it is genetics?
36  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Willpower's role in AP on: January 20, 2018, 04:51:02
Yesterday I read the repost of Tisha's essay and was interested in the section on willpower. I always wondered why some people I know in real life that meditate for long periods never have OBEs or even signposts.

In the past I have absorbed material, possibly from Tom Campbell, suggesting that we are banned from the astral by default and require a good reason to have that lifted.

I have come to believe, perhaps in a sense my mind is poisoned, to think that my reasons for pursuing astral projection aren't good enough to make the cut.

This undermines my willpower and I feel like it is a belief trap. What do you think, friends?
37  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Re: Original Thought on: January 20, 2018, 03:23:50
Haha, will do. I think you'd dig it based on that avatar - it's a strategist's game that was originally inspired by an old Naruto forum game named the Konoha Colosseum.
38  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Re: Original Thought on: January 19, 2018, 05:50:25
I think I have original thoughts every day. Sometimes multiple per day. In some ways I cheat and or have special advantages though.

I have been developing a video game for 5 years that is a new genre so much of the development involves new ideas. One example is using non-linear time progression in turn based strategy games.

I spend a decent amount of time each day communing with my higher self. It's rare to not have original messages coming down that pipeline.

The final stop is that I do enjoy using cannabis and original ideas is the biggest appeal in that experience for me. It always blows me away how many new and original ideas can come from say watching an episode on TV that you have seen 10 times before.
39  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / Re: How do you remember not to move when waking up? on: January 15, 2018, 04:49:27
I think its just a habit that is built with repetition and the momentum of consecutive mornings attempting it. You might start the ritual by making remembering your dreams the first thing you do each morning. As you get into that habit you will find you not only remember the dreams more easily but will become aware at the ends of them more often. As the "earlyness" of your awareness is moved back further you might reach the point of being able to control wakeup without opening your eyes.
40  Spiritual Evolution / Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! / Re: The ethical dilemma of eating to live on: December 20, 2017, 05:26:08
I think it doesn't matter. Meat or vegetables it really doesn't matter.
We consume to survive everyday.
Everyone has his reasons to eat something specific.

(and no I'm not talking about cannibalism or mental issues here[I'm talking about normal stuff])

If you think eating only vegetables can make you progress spiritually faster be my guest.
But to me, once we cease to be alive here it wont matter because we wont need to eat.
Questioning basic needs is just a distraction from the real spiritual questions.
Your physical body is just a proxy for your consciousness to ask questions.
Physical body needs food, water, shelter, etc...
It's just the fuel to your personal progress, nothing more.

Reminds me of the Buddhist view, I like it. Does eating vegetables really make us progress faster spiritually and why? I am skeptical that this is really the case.
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Ethical questions are based on current ethics. They are almost like trends, they always change based on society.
All I'm thinking is, why would I change my eating habits for something that wouldn't have any impact.
Why would I change my eating habits, when up there, they are probably not even eating because they don't have a physical body.
Why would I change something that I never felt guilty about? <- this is important
If you change to vegetarian and you get distracted, or you start questioning yourself again on the whole meat/vegetarian thing to me you're not making spiritual progress.
Same goes for vegetarians that are insanely offended when we eat meat. If you are angry then somewhere you're can't control yourself.
If I am to keep being distracted because I crave a good steak while I'm trying to think about spirituality, I become inefficient, my train of thought gets interrupted.
If my train of thought is interrupted then so does my spiritual progress.
I can see it being a problem to flip flop between various ethical diet programs. That is why it is probably foolish to dogmatize the beliefs of the various diet camps with broad stroke rules. You need to be committed to the principle rather than the act in my view.

There are many normal people that require a high animal fat diet to perform well at a range of tasks, physical and mental. On the other hand it was pointed out earlier in this thread that eating for performance can become a vampirism.
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Thinking logically, in a survival situation, if you were a vegetarian and were stuck on an isle and died because you decided you would not eat a chicken do you really think it would boost your karma? I think that following human behavioral ways even god would not understand why you chose to not eat the chicken to survive a little longer.

If I had plenty of time to plan every meal I cook, every ingredients I choose, every week,
 if I had plenty of money to hire a nutritionist that could tell me what ever works best for a vegetarian,
 and whatever taste better without having to touch meat again for the rest of my life, then sure! I would do it, I'd switch to vegetarian.

I'm not rich, I don't have time, and neither does society.
And no, my brain filled enough as it is with existential questions, I'm not gonna add "learning to cook vegetarian 101" to it.

That sums pretty much sums it up for me.

P.S.: I know this is long but here another thought: Do you think we would have decided to eat meat while we were kids if our parents never told us what it tasted like? I'm pretty sure we would've went straight for the fruits and vegetables just because of their colors. Things that you do all your life are hard to change, even if it would be spiritually beneficial.
I mean, I feel sorry for the animals that died to feed me, but honestly every time I eat meat, I hope the animal died fast and that they're good wherever they are now. That's my only way to be grateful. May they rest in peace. I can't do much more than that unfortunately.

In a survival situation I think you have to treat yourself with the same respect you would give to another human. It is kind of ridiculous to suicide so a rabbit can live. We have little logical choice other than to value our own existence in terms of both the suffering impact and the potential constructive impact.

Some people theorize that humans seek energy from food but don't really have a taste for anything except what is learned. They just have a suckling reflex that begins the sugar addiction. I heard that most babies will reject vegetables until they are conditioned to eating them. The flavor of fats and sugars are appealing energy sources.

I think the best thing we can do for farmed animals is support the businesses that treat them best. It usually means paying more but the real effect is to boycott unethical production of meat. Co-ordinated people have crazy power to immediately withdraw the demand for something and make it non-profitable. Look at Sea World and the documentary Black Fish.
41  Spiritual Evolution / Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! / Re: The ethical dilemma of eating to live on: December 20, 2017, 01:55:05
Ha, at least you embrace the logical consequences! I can appreciate that.

But by using the word converse, it indicates you are probably aware that conditionals don't imply their own converses except under special situations.
It is an interesting predicament really. I have recently heard a lot about Reptilian beings that eat humans on Earth. Supposedly the fact that we eat animals enables them to eat us. They say that if we stopped eating meat the Reptilian would somehow become spiritually bound to not eat us either. Who knows if Reptilians are real but it is a useful thought experiment to pretend that there are animals that may kill and eat humans now.

The "converse" phrase I fabricated reads very stupid, that was sort of the point to illustrate that the original phrase was also unclear. You are right that you can't just flip the words around in these statements and maintain the logic.

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But from what we can tell of plants, they don't suffer in the ways animals can. If it turned out they could, then the ethical reasoning changes. It is mostly moot from the state of current knowledge. Sort of like saying, "if it turned out toys were alive, you would feel sorry for how you treated your dolls."

If my toys actually were alive, I would apologize to them when I found out. But is it that likely?

I think we do have to use our best judgement to figure out what causes the least suffering or we flap around in uncertainty, however, capacity for suffering is just one metric. Brightness of consciousness is another; some plants can demonstrate very complex conscious properties. Clam versus Cannabis plant. Venus fly trap versus fly. Cannabis is a particularly interesting example because people often sense that the plants are "hyper alive" unlike other plants when in their presence. Plant brews like Ayahausca are even known to literally communicate with the consumer.

Isn't there a breakpoint at which suffering is no longer the primary concern?


42  Spiritual Evolution / Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! / Re: The ethical dilemma of eating to live on: December 16, 2017, 21:04:38
I could not eat something that I could not kill. I always hear people saying how gross it is to kill an animal yet they are eating that animal, it makes no sense to me. Do you not realize what you are eating or how it got on your plate? I know many don't care, they just love the taste.

I can remember thinking that butchering an animal was kind of gross when I was about 5 years old hunting with my Father. Most people would experience butchering an animal as gross even after doing it several times, I still think it feels gross to reach inside a warm slippery carcass and separate the skin from the meat.

Using the converse argument, one can eat things they can kill, I see flaws. If there was an organism on this planet that looked and tasted like a giant walking Snickers Bar that is secretly intelligent but shows no signs of pain or suffering, it would be a free for all to eat that being.

The above scenario is basically the way we treat plant based food. The reason I gave that example is to point out that people only care about the wellbeing of the things they eat to the extent of their limited perception. To flip the whole thing upside down I could say "I always hear people saying how gross it is to kill a living being yet they are eating plants, it makes no sense to me".

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Don't make excuses about why you are still eating it. If there is some reason lurking in the back of your head that it is wrong to eat meat, you are setting yourself up. Just own it & eat your bloody meat.

There will always be reasons lurking around to not eat meat, such as attempting to rank the value of beings by intelligence or more accurately, how similar they look and behave to a human. If one can't make an excuse for why they are eating meat or plants they probably shouldn't be doing it? Excuse might be the wrong connotation, I think of it as a rationale to live by.

 
43  Metaphysics / Welcome to Metaphysics! / Re: By choice I can turn my arm/hand purple??! on: December 15, 2017, 00:49:49
If that's it, how would I control it better.

Mastering the inner fire is very challenging to explain because it is something you feel from personal experience typically. The best way I can explain it is to think about the urge to sneeze and how you can resist that urge. Sneezing is an autonomic function that we possess limited control over.

By resisting the autonomic function, some of that function is ceded to the conscious mind's control - that is easier to understand in the context of holding your breath. It is possible to "teach" your brain that you can last longer holding your breath than the body would typically like, pushing it further moves the "panic line" for your brain.

This barrier that you place on the autonomic function we refer to as the "wedge" and you train it through extended breath holds, and more effectively through resisting the urge to shiver in the extreme cold. Somehow when you do these extreme feats you gain a sense of awareness over your body. Those that really master it remember the feeling of their veins shrinking in the cold and can then cause their veins to shrink like that just by thinking it.

----

If the answer is actually related to illusions and alien DNA I don't know much about it honestly. You need to try and connect with the strand of DNA that you resonate with most. Some suggest visualizing standing on a hill in the sunlight and saying "I am ready to come home". You may need to accept your nature as a 12 strand DNA being. They say that shapeshifting typically takes place when a person loses emotional control and connects with their other DNA more readily.
44  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / Re: Question: Would it be possible to astral project into a a novel's story? on: December 15, 2017, 00:37:21
My intuition says that I would be able to have an experience like so: carefully set the intent to live out the plot to a particular episode of a TV show. You review the episode and make sure it is clear you aren't going to wander away with it - then project in.

Has anyone ever tried to what I described? Any luck?
45  Metaphysics / Welcome to Metaphysics! / Re: By choice I can turn my arm/hand purple??! on: December 14, 2017, 02:36:18
As it stands, I'm the only one I know personally who can do this. Everyone else I ask can replicate the feeling but not the visual effects of the task. Infact there is a bigger group of unhelpful people who want to tell me what I'm doing and they aren't even capable of replicating the feeling (according to what they tell me). Essentially what I can do is turn my arm/hand purple by choice. While nothing is actively cutting off circulation. I do this by deciding that's what will happen and it does. I do not know why I can, nor how I can. Infact I'm posting on here to find out if anyone else can do this or has any idea what this may be a door to? If anyone has any idea I would appreciate the input.

There is an ancient technique that wild humans knew which allowed them to have mastery of their biology. When you learn this technique you can use willpower to influence your autonomic nervous system and cause circulation in a part of the body to stop or increase. I have practiced the techniques to access this ability discovered by Wim Hof, it is a real thing but it also has a secretive aspect. At the pinnacle of the method the focus on the body to make it perform physical feats becomes an altered state of consciousness.

Are you cutting of the circulation to your arm or modifying the vessels somehow using the inner fire or is this an energy illusion type deal. Maybe you are connecting with some of our alien DNA strands on an energetic level, I have heard it can cause shape shifting to occur like a holographic illusion.
46  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / Re: Question: Would it be possible to astral project into a a novel's story? on: December 13, 2017, 18:31:35
Is it possible to astral project or remote view into a novel and to experience ''life'' as a character, like watching a movie from within the book itself?

It should be possible do basically anything you imagine - that is the fundamental limitation. It has always been a goal of mine to enjoy some favorite fictional works as a participate or virtual reality observer.

On the other hand I have never read or heard about someone having the level of control to actually carry out an authentic and consistent experience like that.
47  Spiritual Evolution / Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! / Re: Meditation's direct link to OBE/LD on: December 12, 2017, 05:09:10
Bummer about the Kasina, if you had the option to return the Laxman instead would you have still done away with the Kasina? I would love to try one before buying but its a pretty obscure technology in New Zealand, I don't think there is a place you can try them. I may have to take a leap of faith.

What is the key to beating the hypnic jerk? My experience has always been that once the jerk occurs I am awake and back to the body. If I try to ignore and sink back in, sometimes I would have sequences of jerks and waking up rather than ever getting past it so to speak. The times that I have projected consciously there was no jerk at all, due to wake and back to bed priming possibly.
48  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: New Challenge: Focus on: December 12, 2017, 05:04:06
Nice timeline, some useful tidbits in there I haven't seen before.
49  Spiritual Evolution / Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! / Re: The ethical dilemma of eating to live on: December 12, 2017, 04:25:12
And many people are willing to kill and eat other people if they are hungry enough. If we applied similar logic to what it seems like you may be using here, the conclusion would be that farming humans for meat was also valid:

I see your point, maybe it is valid to farm humans, if it is valid to farm any conscious unit.

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Some humans will harvest meat in times of need
____________

Therefore, harvesting meat in all times is justified


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Some humans will eat other humans in times of need
____________

Therefore, eating other humans in all times is justified


------------------

The difference is that the "push comes to shove" part is invoking an extreme. At the extremes, all sorts of things go that wouldn't normally fly. So unless you want to also argue for canibalism in parallel as a bi-product of the argument, we have to be talking about everyday life not in a situation of need... meaning, all things being equal, if you could eat anything, what things would it be best to eat, and why?

The every day need to eat is a different kind of extreme than needing to eat a human like in the movie Alive. My example was designed to say that maybe some people prefer not to personally kill an animal, but would be willing to do so to eat on a daily basis. That is different from someone that lives under some kind of delusion where they eat meat but would be unwilling to ever kill to survive.

At some point the ethical argument has to consider health and wellbeing of the individual doing the eating too. Suppose I have a pet dog, do I feed it a natural diet like meat, or do I feed it manufactured carbohydrate biscuits that have strong links to cancer? We don't judge animals for killing each other in the wild so even vegans feed their pets meat.

In a way we all have a pet human here in this body; if a hypothetical carnivore diet become endorsed as a cure-all for Western illnesses and athletic performance, we wouldn't continue to give ourselves the cancer biscuits surely?

I think the breakpoint to this logic is that the health of the being has to have more value than the cost of keeping it alive for it to be in the realm of an ethical choice.

My personal answer to "all things being equal, if you could eat anything, what things would it be best to eat, and why?" is that we should consider a meat based diet for two reasons. Despite conventional wisdom, meat based diets might be healthier than balanced or vegan diets. We have to kill a conscious being to eat, but we can live in synergy with animals like cows by treating them right and giving them the gift of not extinction. That might sound facetious, but the likes of Buffalo exist in Australia and have gone extinct in native areas because they were not preserved as a food source, or humans took up all of the land they need.
50  Spiritual Evolution / Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! / Re: Meditation's direct link to OBE/LD on: December 10, 2017, 19:23:28
True, I have always meant to get into light and sound machines, thanks for reminding me Lumaza. Might look into getting one for Christmas this year, I like the sound of the Kasina machine.

The theta state sounds a bit like "the void". It sticks out to me that you mentioned the physical jolt as beta waves start to form. I often get physical jolts when trying conscious projections. I wonder if that can be explained by a sudden emergence of beta waves as a response to exit symptoms or realizing that a dream transition is occurring or has just occurred.
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