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51  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: New Challenge: Focus on: December 12, 2017, 05:04:06
Nice timeline, some useful tidbits in there I haven't seen before.
52  Spiritual Evolution / Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! / Re: The ethical dilemma of eating to live on: December 12, 2017, 04:25:12
And many people are willing to kill and eat other people if they are hungry enough. If we applied similar logic to what it seems like you may be using here, the conclusion would be that farming humans for meat was also valid:

I see your point, maybe it is valid to farm humans, if it is valid to farm any conscious unit.

Some humans will harvest meat in times of need

Therefore, harvesting meat in all times is justified


Some humans will eat other humans in times of need

Therefore, eating other humans in all times is justified


The difference is that the "push comes to shove" part is invoking an extreme. At the extremes, all sorts of things go that wouldn't normally fly. So unless you want to also argue for canibalism in parallel as a bi-product of the argument, we have to be talking about everyday life not in a situation of need... meaning, all things being equal, if you could eat anything, what things would it be best to eat, and why?

The every day need to eat is a different kind of extreme than needing to eat a human like in the movie Alive. My example was designed to say that maybe some people prefer not to personally kill an animal, but would be willing to do so to eat on a daily basis. That is different from someone that lives under some kind of delusion where they eat meat but would be unwilling to ever kill to survive.

At some point the ethical argument has to consider health and wellbeing of the individual doing the eating too. Suppose I have a pet dog, do I feed it a natural diet like meat, or do I feed it manufactured carbohydrate biscuits that have strong links to cancer? We don't judge animals for killing each other in the wild so even vegans feed their pets meat.

In a way we all have a pet human here in this body; if a hypothetical carnivore diet become endorsed as a cure-all for Western illnesses and athletic performance, we wouldn't continue to give ourselves the cancer biscuits surely?

I think the breakpoint to this logic is that the health of the being has to have more value than the cost of keeping it alive for it to be in the realm of an ethical choice.

My personal answer to "all things being equal, if you could eat anything, what things would it be best to eat, and why?" is that we should consider a meat based diet for two reasons. Despite conventional wisdom, meat based diets might be healthier than balanced or vegan diets. We have to kill a conscious being to eat, but we can live in synergy with animals like cows by treating them right and giving them the gift of not extinction. That might sound facetious, but the likes of Buffalo exist in Australia and have gone extinct in native areas because they were not preserved as a food source, or humans took up all of the land they need.
53  Spiritual Evolution / Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! / Re: Meditation's direct link to OBE/LD on: December 10, 2017, 19:23:28
True, I have always meant to get into light and sound machines, thanks for reminding me Lumaza. Might look into getting one for Christmas this year, I like the sound of the Kasina machine.

The theta state sounds a bit like "the void". It sticks out to me that you mentioned the physical jolt as beta waves start to form. I often get physical jolts when trying conscious projections. I wonder if that can be explained by a sudden emergence of beta waves as a response to exit symptoms or realizing that a dream transition is occurring or has just occurred.
54  Spiritual Evolution / Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! / Re: The ethical dilemma of eating to live on: December 10, 2017, 19:01:36
If I couldn't kill it myself, I wouldn't eat it.

That is a pretty cryptic statement. What do you really mean?

I have gone out into the bush in Western Australia or New Zealand and hunted Kangaroo, Emu, Goat, Rabbit, Turkey, Boar, Duck etc. We most definitely can go out and kill animals ourselves but what does that have to do with the ethical dilemma.

I think what you are trying to say is that if you are unwilling to get your hands dirty you shouldn't be eating meat but that is a pretty flimsy argument. Most people are willing to kill an animal to feed their family or themselves when push comes to shove.
55  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: New Challenge: Focus on: December 08, 2017, 04:25:09
I have been trying out the focus challenge for a couple of weeks now. I think my longest run was around fifty five seconds. I learned that length of the run may not be important though, better twenty second runs have resulted in exit symptoms. The best runs seemed to involve a combination of a nearly forgotten background activity (the counting), and flow state engagement with a particular thought pattern or visualization.

Difficulties encountered include sudden and dramatic exit symptoms. From nothing to roller coaster style, so shocking that there is no chance to think. Inability to get into the flow or hold the focus is another problem. I am coming to understand this one might be significantly influenced by chemical imbalances in the brain.
56  Spiritual Evolution / Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! / Re: Meditation's direct link to OBE/LD on: December 08, 2017, 00:00:16
Sweet post Madmagus. I have done a bit of research into the way brain waves affect these states too, it's a topic I want to learn more about.

Perhaps you would be willing to share your interpretation of a classic Theta meditation experience and what it is like.

I have had meditation sessions where time seems to fly by in a semi-blank mind state that can easily span 1-2 hours. Is this what a theta experience is like?
57  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Paddle to the Sea - 1 Week Challenge on: November 08, 2017, 07:04:42
Still unable to access the forums on my normal machine. Been super busy but I did my final session on schedule.

Session 7:

I started on the deck in the sun. Relaxing the mind was easy and before long I was in the mindless state mostly. I didn't fall asleep and develop any mini dreams. After 30 minutes or so I went to the visualizations still on the movie in the mind approach. It got a little easier but was still difficult. I would imagine things like pirates and war on the river in bursts. The difficulty is in allowing the scene to unfold for longer than a few moments before becoming too self aware. I am allowing myself to leave the river scenario to seek interesting scenarios. Interestingly the process unfolds naturally on mundane trains of thought which I easily become immersed in, forgetting the visualizations.

After 50 minutes I go inside and lay on the couch for round 2. This time I allow myself to go into a deeper meditation bordering on the timeless state. Early on I caught myself entering dreams in the stage where the it is still a conceptual train of thought that has yet to render visual information. The glimpse I get at this phase of the mini dream initiation has been witnessed many times but it reminds me that it is similar to the mundane train of thought experience. I think this type of entry could be a kind of focus that is effective for projection. I fly by the next 2.5 hours in the timeless zone. I fell into the mini dreams again 4 or 5 times, each ended as soon as I became self aware, which has become the norm. The scenario aborts so fast it feels like I don't have a chance. This problem slowly faded away in fully lucid dreams over time.

Session X:

I had another session that was a bit different but worth sharing. I have decided to try a fast of a kind after learning about the mythology around the Oil of Christos / Sacred Oil. My inner fire was way more prominent than usual and I was enjoying the healing energy in my stomach. I let my mind wander and reflected on some recent sadness with life. I discovered a source of inspirational energy and my core felt lit up with the energy levels. The experience was so strong that the energy feelings were body wide and I could feel my brain being filled with happiness hormones. Muscle tension was going and my spine clicked several times. I just basked in the energy and imagined it like a healing force.

Along with the thoughts of healing I started to spontaneously visualize trees of lightning coursing throughout my body. It was very natural and easy somehow unlike any of my other sessions. When my energy levels are this high I often get offered the chance to project in a way. Its a strange feeling of energy rising like the coiling of a spring about to fire you into the sky. In the end I was afraid to accept the offer, in the moment I knew what the source of the fear was but it escapes me now like a dream. After this my energy levels plummeted to zero and I had to slowly summon it back over the course of 30 seconds or so.

The experience comes full circle if I integrate the data with my initial suspicions. There is some kind of hidden fear or block that wants to be overcome. It isn't a problem when I am already asleep or if I coincidently get past some critical point in a conscious projection. I am not sure if this aspect plays a part in the troubles with visualizations. I learned that I can get some success by leading the visualization by something non visual.
58  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Paddle to the Sea - 1 Week Challenge on: October 31, 2017, 20:20:20
Session 3:

Went with the 10 minutes of noticing. Really easy to fall into the meditation zone now. After the 10 minutes I start the visualizations. This session was just a constant struggle to keep with the boat. My max focus time might have been around 5 seconds and I probably reset the visual on the boat 100 times. This was the least successful of the sessions so far, really frustrating experience.

Session 4:

Started with 30 minutes at least meditation in the sun. No mini dreams this time but a number of deep trains of thought without visuals. This time when I start the visualizations I decide to alter the approach, remembering struggling too much with the boat in session 3. The new approach involved filling the scenario with far more activity and things I find interesting, mostly fantasy characters and locations for the boat to pass through. The focus is a bit easier to hold this way, I can maintain the visuals for maybe 10 seconds. The scenario was very transient, skipping from thing to thing in a fairly chaotic procession. I learn that I struggle to connect one scene to another without jumping and resetting focus.

I read other accounts of the sessions and get a bit confused. When I read the description of another experience and compare it to my own the story looks the same on paper - the actual experience is far less remarkable than the recollection of the fleeting images and scenarios.

Session 5:

This time I skip the meditation and go straight into another new approach to visualization because what I was doing isn't working and I have some ideas from reading other posts. The new tactic is basically the opposite of the last one, instead of filling the scenario with more interesting things I try doing as little as possible. The visualizations don't come very well, when they do it is more vivid than the forced imagery but most of the time I am just bound to a sense of motion on the boat waiting for a visual that never comes. Still the best session to date, the new technique has some promise.

Session 6:

Now I come in with the mindset of watching a movie in my mind. I try to let a scenario unfold and become immersed in it. It works in 2-3 seconds bursts before I have to restart. I feel this is on the right track conceptually and yielded some of the more vivid visuals. The rest of the session was just more of the same, trying to stay with the scenario but having it die out really fast.
59  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Paddle to the Sea - 1 Week Challenge on: October 28, 2017, 07:52:04
Forums have been down for me for last few days. I have been doing the sessions though. I'll post about them when I have more time on my hands, hopefully tomorrow afternoon.
60  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Paddle to the Sea - 1 Week Challenge on: October 24, 2017, 05:36:56
Sleep isn't a part of this process. A 30 minute meditative session is. How did you associate "sleep" with this?  huh

 I figured the instruction of a couple minute "sneak peek" many times throughout the day would have drove that point home.

My big response for the other post is at work as I mentioned, but it didn't address this. I have come to consider these astral levels:

1) The sleep level - we stay completely still and try to make our bodies fall asleep. The moment it happens our brains are allowed to move into the correct brain wave state, DMT is possibly released and the experience rapidly escalates.

2) The meditation level - by developing some special neural pathways and entering a trance or flow state we are able to change brain wave states and have some experiences without completely falling asleep.

3) The ascended level - with some kind of 3rd eye activation we achieve synchronization of the regular and sleeping brain wave states, allowing for open eye visuals and dual reality experiences while walking around.

I think all of these states are physical conditions, by default the average person gets the sleep level, but for some reason we can't get beyond that without training. It might be because of social conditioning or things like calcification of glands in the brain. The meditation level is like a short-cut and stabilization of the necessary brain wave state achieved through repeated carving out of the neural paths involved. The ascended level happens for people spontaneously sometimes in extreme stress, but usually requires enlightenment and or peak physical health.

I know it is possible to train the enlightened state for example through extreme physical feats that require full mental coordination to not die in the act. Athletes like Michael Jordan, but far more predominantly extreme snowboarders get this. Once it has been experienced enough times they can enter this flow state at will right before the sports event.

I suspect that at the current level I am at the only way to experience a full blown OBE is to fall asleep.
61  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Paddle to the Sea - 1 Week Challenge on: October 24, 2017, 05:06:21
I had a response typed up for Round 1 but the forums were down for a period and it is on my work computer. I'm going to skip to logging Session 2 and post the other reply tomorrow morning.

Session 2:

I laid down on my deck in the sun and began noticing. I didn't have many thoughts going on this time and I got deep fairly quickly. It was nice so I just allowed this part to extend significantly longer than 10 minutes, it might have been more like 30. I had a couple of quiet rambling thoughts but no mini dreams. At some point an insect landed on my face and disturbed me so I was brought up from the deep trance.

I resumed noticing for a while and after I felt I was deep enough I decided it was time to do the visualizations. I started by seeing where my boat was on the river and was met by stringent resistance. The visualization just really did not want to be at all. It was as if the deep mindset couldn't cope with the brain activity or energy levels required to do it. I kept trying to bring it back anyway, discovering what kind of river it was and trying to follow behind the boat from a distance.

Ultimately the boat was proving too problematic so I decided to let it go and try a different visualization to see if the topic was somehow the problem. This time I decided to pretend I was playing a video game and it was lot a easier. After around 20 seconds of seeing myself play I fell into a deep train of thought regarding gaming in general. I noticed this had happened after a short time and brought myself back.

By this point I had been laying down for maybe around 40 minutes and my arms had gone numb from the lack of blood circulation. I shifted them and resumed a mindful meditation, allowing another insect to traverse my hand for a while. I messed with some more visualizations but I had become too roused and decided to end the session there.

Overall the points at which I was closest to an OBE was the deep train of thought that spawned off my video game simulation, and the rambling thoughts on the brink of mini dreams before I started any visualization.
62  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Paddle to the Sea - 1 Week Challenge on: October 23, 2017, 19:59:31
Thanks Selski, this will help keep me motivated to provide the entertainment, haha.

I have been querying NPR on the truth behind the lack of success yesterday and have been given two answers. The first is that at no point was I close to sleep or a trance mindset, hence the visualizations were a struggle and didn't take on a life of their own. The second fact that was pointed out to me is that I have never been able to sleep during the day due to my energy and extreme mental activity levels - relying on falling asleep during the day to project is going to be additionally challenging by default.
63  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: Paddle to the Sea - 1 Week Challenge on: October 23, 2017, 06:12:17
Session 1:

I began by noticing. Nothing much happened for a while but I was pretty calm minded. Around 5 minutes in I started to perceive the colorful clouds and sparkles that often appear when putting pressure on the closed eyes.

Around 7 minutes in I started receiving information that this session would not succeed. I pushed those thoughts away, although they were quite persistent. I didn't feel any attachment to them, need for success or expectations, yet I felt a deep knowing that they were correct, much like precognition.

By the time 10 minutes came around I had not begun to perceive any kind of depth in the darkness. I decided to move on with the exercise anyway and begin the visualization part.

I started by imagining a native American canoe with a small paddler inside. The launch site was a boat ramp in my home town. The canoe was put into the water and it just floated there doing nothing in particular. After a short while the scenario seemed to become restless and start to teleport the canoe from one location to another, right out to the middle of the ocean then back again.

I did as little as possible to drive scenario, simply returning the attention to it if it wavered, which wasn't a huge issue but did occur a few times. Overall the scenario remained fairly bland with the canoe just floating around, something different happened briefly 3 or 4 times but it was short lived and felt a bit forced somehow. The highlight of the simulation was when some sharks showed up for a few seconds and ate the man from the canoe.

64  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Paddle to the Sea - 1 Week Challenge on: October 23, 2017, 05:55:54
This first post will describe the challenge:

We will call this practice "Paddle to the Sea". The premise and reason it made me feel old is that I had watched this short film in School as a young lad. I don't remember much of my past, so I was shocked that the "Paddle to Sea" theme would come up to me. Here's a short quip on that film.
 I don't want you to go watch the film though. That would cause you to have prior expectations.
 Now to the exercise. The duration of the exercise for now is one week. Every day you will do a sit down for at least 30 minute session and on top of that, whenever you find a spar moment during the day, I want you to take a few seconds/minutes to do some quick "searching". Periodically that is.

 The exercise starts with your closed eyes. You will do what ever it takes to get relaxed first, then just put in about 10 minutes of "noticing" in he darkness before your eyes.
 When you feel "depth" approaching, I want you to mentally walk down that road ahead of you until you get to that bridge. Don't look for the road, just know it's there. This is where you will either get a quick visual or feel your first "etheric" movement. When you get to the bridge ahead, reach down and release that toy boat beside you into the flowing water. The boat can be a replica Canoe, Sailboat, Ocean-liner, Battleship, it doesn't matter right now. Don't choose the "Titanic/Poseidon" or any other failed ship, lol.  Watch it take off.

 Now you are going to just observe. Visually/mentally follow it wherever it goes. Don't lead it. I won't give you any examples or ideas of destination because once again, that would cause "expectations". Stay with it. When it fades, bring it back. If you can't see it, feel it or hear it's path or smell the air around it, feel the motion of it. Stay at least 20 feet behind it though. You are pure conscious energy at this point, so you can go anywhere it can and more. It's kind of like a "pace car" scenario where you start feeling the bends and curves of the path ahead.

 If at any time something else starts to happen, a new morphed scene, allow that new focus to take over and lock on to that new target.

 Whenever you get a chance during the day, "briefly" close your eyes and see what your ship/vessel is doing. Do it often. This entire practice is all about "repetition" and "entrainment". It can be like a new version of "Where's Waldo", lol. You don't need to put time into these little peeks.

 The next day when you go to do your 30 minute session, you don't need to start from the beginning of the scenario again. Get relaxed, in the zone, then see if you can see where your ship is and what it's doing. Follow it for awhile, through whatever environment you find it in. Be aware of your other senses as well. When it fades, bring it back.

 I guarantee you "something" will happen. Don't stop doing it until the entire week is done. It doesn't matter how bad your ability to visualize or sense in the NP is. You will have a "experience".
65  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: Being able to project only by focusing on breathing. How is that possible? on: October 23, 2017, 01:23:26
Alright, I'll accept the mission. My first session will be today, I will open the thread later and begin logging the results.
66  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: Being able to project only by focusing on breathing. How is that possible? on: October 22, 2017, 09:01:44
I want to say one thing here Thaomas and this isn't ego talking, this is truth and I don't want to sound pompous or crass. If I began to believe any excuse or reason that I can come up with for not being successful at something, I would never be able to do that something again. That goes especially for this practice. Any "doubt" will knock you out.
My philosophy is Win or Learn. I use the term apparent might not to wallow in excuses but rather to understand the enemy and illustrate it for the benefit of other readers. It's also a talent though, ADD has actually allowed me to experience precognition a few times. It is a powerful weapon but uncontrollable for me at this point. The point about doubt is received, I think that is important.

You did nothing wrong there. Phasing, then going back to internal monologue makes no difference, unless of course that makes you start makes you focus on this physical reality here. It's only wrong if "you" think it is.
 The only thing you need to acquire a shift in consciousness is to completely lose your focus on this physical realm here, unless you wish to practice "dual" awareness and then you need to be able to hold a steady even balance to do that
Are you sure that is all it takes? I feel like losing focus on the physical reality is easy, it happens to me spontaneously many times a day even. Its a different experience to the OBE, more like complete sensory deprivation from all realities. I'll even admit to one drug experience that created a stronger "thought train" experience - but it still wouldn't convert to an OBE despite total sensory deprivation. Some authors labor on the necessity of achieving mind awake body asleep. Some of my spontaneous OBEs have come from passing out due to yogic breathing routines as evidence. Is your experience that you are definitely going into a fully blown OBE without being asleep?

I think it takes that long because we make it take that long. We begin the process. Then we play some weird game of yo-yo between our current NP focus and our waking conscious mind. That game keeps going until we find ourselves too tired to play anymore. Then the shift occurs. In other words, once you give up fighting it, the shift occurs naturally.
 Ask yourself this. How long does it take to shut off your mind when you go to sleep. You put your head down and 5-10 minutes later your gone. You have programmed yourself all your life to do that. Well acquiring a totally consciously aware shift takes the same "programming'.

Hmm, this adds evidence to my suspicion that the "beta" waves of our conscious thoughts can prevent the "gamma" state necessary for a full shift. Maybe it literally is the sleeping process rather than our actively making the process take longer. I say that because we don't necessarily resist going to sleep but it still takes a while for the brain to physically calm. I have never heard of anyone switch flipping into an OBE or going to sleep excluding rare events like near death experience.

Today, I don't need those things. Once in awhile I will shoot some hoops, row a boat, etc. just to get some motion going. Then I sit back and notice or if that visual of rowing began to take on a life of it's own, I would allow the scenario to form, then join it. Now it takes anywhere from 10 minutes - 30 minutes before the shift occurs, depending on my mood, pain level, etc.. Not always are you going to just be able to shut everything off. The bath water is very good for relaxation though. That seems to speed everything up. But when I talk about "Entrainment", just closing my eyes while lying in the water, puts me in the zone. That daily "brain entrainment" really pays off. That's why I am such a fan on repetition.

 When I used my Happy Place visual, I would start by lying on the each and first grabbing a handful of sand or attempt to smell the ocean or hear the waves. From there I would then turn my head left and right and look at my surroundings. There was normally something out of place there and that became my target of interest or focus. I always let my curiosity take me deeper.
 When I read my Journals yesterday, I saw that that is where my "Guide" Charlie showed up too and most of my first successful APs occurred on that "Island" as well. If I needed to see something else, the scene would change and I would find myself elsewhere, like in some kind of "school"/learning situation.

10-30 minutes is an insanely long time to maintain a visualization. Is this really such a long simulation or is it more like 10-30 second bursts with rests and distraction interludes? I have witnessed a scenario take on a life of its own a handful of times that were somewhat out of the blue, all of them involved falling asleep once again. My other visualizations always have to be desperately maintained for some reason.
67  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: Being able to project only by focusing on breathing. How is that possible? on: October 22, 2017, 06:40:43
Here is a brief 5 year time-line of things I experienced and when.

Thanks for taking the time to write that up. I read it all and I'm sure it will be useful for many of us.

One thing that strikes me is that you seem to have succeeded really early on in the process, which is rare. I think it took me over a year to consciously exit for even 20 seconds. Others I know haven't had any success in over 2 years. You may have a special aptitude for it.

I have started to wonder if the increasing prevalence of attention deficit disorders in the digital generation play a part in the difficulty. I have recently read that this condition is less "mental disorder" and more "default depression" induced by lowered base lines of happiness hormones in the body. It leads us to give up the existing thought, or reality itself, in favor of the next thought with no apparent resistance. Flipping through pictures on Facebook for example conditions us to this disorder.

In the context of phasing, the likes of the island paradise is almost hopeless before the apparent might of attention deficit I have learned. I had a rare opportunity this morning to sleep in and spent a fair amount of time practicing phasing techniques. Mind's eye is a strength of mine but I can only stick phasing scenario for a few moments before unconsciously changing to internal monologue, then catching the mistake and going back to physical awareness before resetting on the phasing.

One thing that remains the ultimate mystery to me is why successful phasing takes so long. Getting completely immersed in a minds eye situation briefly is easy but it lacks the same intensity and _persistence_ as a physical experience; feel the warmth of the sun, feel the sand, the warmth is gone, feel the wind, the sand is gone. The barrier doesn't seem to be fear of shifting to the island, nor disbelief in the fact that we aren't a physical body in essence. Its a physical condition of the brain resisting the process due to an inflexibility in our ability to rapidly shift brain wave states.
68  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: Being able to project only by focusing on breathing. How is that possible? on: October 22, 2017, 03:52:03
I also think my problem may lie in my not treating regular dreams, as I would a Projection or Lucid dream it is an experience too I guess, but I hold Astral Projection and lucid dreaming in high regard, and I hold AP Higher than both, cause I thing it will give physical results, like life changing results as apposed to the other two. Take for instance the whole reason I want to project is to do this one thing that I hold dear, and that's meeting the higher self thru it and merging, and me I think this merger will heed some physical or mental results that will change me, at least that is what i'm hoping for........

The differences between astral projection, dreaming, lucid dreaming etc when it comes to actual life changes, really can be arbitrary at the end of the day. I have had lucid dream experiences that have been far more life changing than astral projection experiences for example. It would probably help to not assume that any one of these experiences holds the answers, you will get more from the others with an open mind.

I'm going to have to take a risk of disillusionment here but I hope it leads to a positive outcome for you. What if there is no higher self? Or what if the higher self is really just you at your best and it isn't all that unfamiliar from what you have already experienced at times in this life? You are creating pain for yourself by thinking that you need this experience to be happy and craving it. Part of the craving is wanting some existing condition to go away. These kinds of pursuits are an endless battle. Take for example lotto winners who's base line happiness is exactly the same as it was 4 weeks after winning. The artist who completes their magnus opum only to feel empty and dissatisfied days later.

Maybe projection and meeting of the higher self or so on does hold some kind of silver bullet to life's problems; most people seem to claim this is not the case and that real progress can only be achieved by doing it yourself. A downloading of understanding some things in the astral may lead to momentary enlightenment but not a permanent solution. I have experienced astral revelations that had no lasting impact and can't be recalled very well upon waking.

But the way I see it, if it doesn't work that way why let me wait so long to achieve a projection, when i'm so attached to this notion, just for it to fail and not be what exactly happens and it breaks me forever, send me in a deeper depression than I already am, cause I been trying for  year upon years to achieve this. I haven't been out since I came to the conclusion that this was what I wanted to pursue. I don't wanna do anything else on the astral until I accomplish this feat first. where as you can't do any of that with a regular dream, and with a Lucid one, it will give little results that are only temporary

 so in my book

dreams= no results
Lucid dreams= temporary results
AP= realtime longer results= maybe even permanent
My intuition says that you are being denied the experience because it can't deliver the outcome you are seeking. The reality system only permits activity beyond the physical reality sandbox that is probable to have a positive outcome - you pointed out the problem yourself - it won't allow the disillusionment from success, and dissatisfaction at the results, to send you into a deeper depression. Once you give up on the notion that projection is the answer you will be unblocked I think.

The good news is that you aren't alone. We are all suffering the same way. I have experienced the desperation to find some answer to life's misery in astral projection and it isn't completely over yet for me either.

So where is the answer to permanent results? Like Xanth always says, it is here right now in what we do in our physical lives, astral projection isn't that important in this quest imo, that is why it is turned off by default for us - it is why this reality was created in the first place - astral projection wasn't a very useful place for learning permanent results.

Step 1 is to realize that good and bad feelings are just chemicals being governed by the human program and this program is designed to work against you in our current habitat. Step 2 is to realize that whatever you think you do or don't need is probably not going to satisfy for long - there will be a next thing.  Step 3 is to get the good feelings back in ways that are long term such as a sense of purpose in a larger system - making real connections with those that are persistent in your life - and not craving these feelings. This is as far as I have come to understand to date, I am at Step 1 probably.
69  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself on: October 22, 2017, 02:53:17
Doesn't that only apply as a retrospective process? Nothing can be a valid concept permitted that there isn't anything around to label it. Nothing and something are both self fulfilling in that sense.
70  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: Being able to project only by focusing on breathing. How is that possible? on: October 21, 2017, 02:40:58
What do you think the key is to understanding the phenomenon Baro?
71  Dreams / Welcome to Dreams! / Re: ThaomasOfGrey's Dream Journal on: October 20, 2017, 20:35:56
Thanks for the input Stillwater, this experience was really significant for me so I appreciate you taking the time to read it. The strong emotion from that event has since connected me to an unrelated childhood trauma. I have realized that was around the time that I began bottling emotions; I never experience them like I did in that lucid dream in physical life.
72  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Re: Being able to project only by focusing on breathing. How is that possible? on: October 20, 2017, 20:07:56
that's just it, I haven't had any type of non physical experiences, outside of regular dreaming, and that hasn't given me anything worth saying its a lesson

I would hazard to say that there is almost always something like a lesson in the dream. It is more of a matter of how cryptic the message is, such as, was the entire dream a metaphor for something else. Sometimes it is also about the way you react to the content of the dream, providing insight on your natural inclinations. It may require an expansion of perspective with respect to what lessons are available or likely to be given.

They will usually revolve around some kind of fear mechanic initially: jealousy; aggression; selfishness; guilt; causing suffering for others; causing suffering for yourself; not taking action to eliminate suffering; examine your experiences in this context in physical life too. Other times the experience might revolve around letting go of false beliefs or baggage of the past. Perhaps it is about emotional control required to operate in other realities by the code of conduct. Sometimes it can just be experiencing love in some way.

The thing about techniques is that the same process will often not (maybe never) yield the same results it did on previous trials. Consider the problem of "chasing the dragon" in drug use. The first experience is innately unique, not just because you have not developed any tolerance to the substance, but because you are experiencing things you never have before. The new experiences carve neural pathways in your brain to log these unusual signals and make sense of them - this feeling of learning is part of the dragon high. Next time you use the drug you have tolerance, but the learning portion is diminished and thus the overall experience is unsatisfactory compared to the first.

Astral projection techniques can be like chasing the dragon, the first time it was new and exciting and that can make it easier to approach success signs through the energy generated by enthusiasm and dopamine releases associated with neural carving out of new symptom signals. Next time though, technique seems boring and ineffective compared to the first time so we look for a new technique. Human biology is designed to fall into this trap unfortunately, the brain has a habit of releasing dopamine before you try the technique that over delivers on the expectation success, then it deliberately under delivers on the dopamine release of the actual experience and breaks the promise it made. The whole point of this mechanic is to keep you perpetually running the treadmill searching for new techniques that deliver the original high (finding the next food source or mate in evolutionary biology).

73  Dreams / Welcome to Dreams! / Re: ThaomasOfGrey's Dream Journal on: October 19, 2017, 23:42:51
I had a lucid dream experience like nothing before. I was in some alternate Australia and joined my Aunty in visting my now deceased Grandfather. She looked after him in the final days and this was like visiting him at that time. When we got to the care home, which is not where he really died, he was laying in bed and demented, practically delirious. He spoke lots of incomprehensible stuff and it made me very emotional to see him, it has been more than 20 years since I saw him and I wasn't around when he died to ever witness him like this.

I went to the bed and took his hand and tried to explain who I was. He didn't recognise me because I was at my current age and he knew me as a 6 year old boy. I continued to repeat my name and psychically transfer the information on who I was to his mind. After a few repetitions I could tell he knew who I was and the dementia suddenly cleared. At this point we got him out of his bed and I was amazed that he could stand in the condition he was in.

We went outside together and most of my family from his side was present in a sort of reunion. My Father was the only person not from his side of the family that was there. A kind of confrontation occurred between my Father and Grandfather - it was about the abuse he had dealt to my Grandmother during their lifes together.

The question asked was something like whether he now understood the pain he had caused and whether he was sorry. He admitted to himself what he had done and was finally forgiven by the group. It was an extremely powerful emotional moment. This is where the experience ended and I awoke, still invigorated with the feelings induced in that dream. Even thinking about it now causes that emotion to rise up in me.
74  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: DevilDogDogma's Experiences on: October 19, 2017, 22:44:54
In a Lucid Dream, I know that my physical is sleeping soundly in my bed and that all I am experiencing is outside of this physical realm. But until I gain that awareness, I am normally just a observer watching the Dream. As an observer I may have recall of the Dream, but it will be much less than a Lucid Dream would be, simply because I wasn't totally consciously aware in it. Case in point, this morning I wake up, I have a very faint recall of my last Dream scenario. At no time in the experience did I know I was Dreaming, so lack of awareness, lack of recall.
There are some major differences in the way we experience these dreams I think. Due to semantics it is difficult to grasp observer, I think I know what you are describing. Sometimes it is like watching yourself in a play, or maybe just being point consciousness as some scenario unfolds.

I have had many experiences where I know I am sleeping and many where I don't know, but they are still first person experiences where I am in control making all of the choices. The recall is equal, the lucidity is equal I feel. I have chosen to leave behind knowing that I am dreaming because that intent was about roller coaster rides, I find the experience more valuable when I don't have that in the forefront of my awareness. It is still there on some level but it is not prominent or important.

I guess for now I have come to enjoy experiencing my "true" self more than the desire to seize control and awareness with intellect. I reflect on and experience this as a step up, not a step down.

You mentioned a lot of issues below so I will try to redact the important bits.
...whenever something occurs, you have to question it.

You have never allowed yourself to release completely. "need" to understand the whys of every step of the way. have stepped in and once again blocked yourself.

The truth is that I stopped pursuing conscious projection by the means of sit down sessions a long time ago. My understanding has been coalescing into something else. Like you pointed out, I was blocking myself and attempting to brute force past this problem was unproductive. I feel that I do need to understand the core reasons for these blocks and undo them to succeed. I have never given up on pursuing these reasons.

What is wrong with understanding the whys in the process of projection? I want to be able to teach others to achieve this state easily. If I achieved it, but cant help anyone I would consider it a failure. If it takes me years to understand everything and at the end I can help others I am alright with that.

allow the natural shift to take place

more mind blowing then becoming aware you are Dreaming.

Can you finally experience it consciously aware the whole way there?
I currently cant allow it easily or reliably. I have no illusions or denial over that fact.

One thing that strikes me though...I have consciously experienced it the whole way there, indeed for more than a fleeting 10 second exit. It wasn't more mind blowing than dreaming. The experience was almost exactly the same as my lucid dreams at the time. When I look back on that experience now the level it was at was definitely less meaningful than the lucid dreams I have today - perhaps that is part of the reason I am in no rush to consciously project anymore. What am I missing here?

Lastly, using the Alien analogy. An Alien may know already that they are more than there physical selves/bodies.  If Humanity was brought up and taught differently, we would be able to AP at will too. Our problem is our conditioning.

I agree fully, that is why I focus most of my efforts now on directly understanding the conditioning and how to remove it. I have started to feel that this perhaps should be step one of the process. Practicing relinquishing control hasn't worked that well for me, I am a very cognitive person and the answer is likely to be cognitive such as a rationalized fear of death. My prediction is that I will understand it, feel it at a core being level and then I won't have a problem anymore.

I understand this process is probably frustrating for you to watch and I rebel against the well tread path. Its in my nature to find my own way.
75  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Re: New perspectives on intimacy in dreams on: October 19, 2017, 19:50:21
True, I just refreshed my memory on that thread. I also read it when I first posted about encountering this problem. I suppose the new information I was looking to add here was that I had "mastered" avoiding these scenarios but that has seem to have led to a new breed of lesson.

A quote from yourself "when something of a lustful nature appeared, I said no, this is not why I came here".

It casts a shadow of doubt on my mind because it isn't the same conclusion I have reached, but my intuition tells me saying no all of the time was as much of a mistake as seeking yes. It had come to cause me to, spurn in a way, actual people unnecessarily out of fear. One series of events in particular has stuck in my mind relentlessly and this tends to happen when there is something important I need to learn from it.

I feel I have the calibration nearly dialed in now, I can only wait to see if there are more layers to this. I am also left wondering about the nature of these relentless recollections of events that can sometimes go on for 5 or more years and why I do this. Is it truly an obsessive compulsive condition, do I have an intuition about certain scenarios having hidden lessons, is there some entity pushing the replay button on this memory until I get it?
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