Actually I didnt say everything you said is nonsense. I said your logic to me is nonsense. That and just coming up with theories about how the world works or doesnt overnight is comical to me as well. Arguing back and forth about what you think and what my experiences tell me isnt going to help anyone. Really what we are doing here isnt what this forum was meant for. Im not going to sit here though and perpetuate this argument further. Im sorry if anything I said offended you. Regards,
                                                         T.L.

      Careful who you put your faith into. I know there are some who are the real thing when it comes to mediums, but its hard to find them trust me. They are very few and far between, too much greed out there if you know what I mean. Having said that anyone who can project can get there, anyone without a strong religious belief. I say that because the vibration rate at which the reception area Im speaking of is a little higher than a lot of the religious sort of places out there. From my experience and Im sure others, people with a certain religious belief will sort of just get stuck at the vibrational level at which others in his/her belief end up. So if you get caught up in a religion and the place those go with that religion is at a lower vibration rate than that of the reception you will get stuck there. Now its not a permanent kind of situation its just a problem that one can overcome if they can come to the realization that their belief is not the one true religion or what have you. I dont think its something that the majority of projectors will have to worry about as a lot of us have no formal religious belief, which is the only seeming reason I can altogether bypass those religious type places in the obe state.  As to the how you can get there that is tricky to explain.
   I have happened upon it by chance (the reception area) once I got there though Im able to know just end up there at will by holding a part of the place in my mind. I guess its kind of like locking on to the vibration rate so I can just kind of "skip" to it or what have you. How I originally got there I was thinking to myself about where the non religious end up when they leave the physical for good. This was a long time ago so I can not promise to the exact wording of what I was thinking of, but this is as close to it as I can remember.

    Forgive me for asking, you said you had personal verification of its existence. Then you said you dont know what hue it is because you havent been there. What kind of verification have you had? Im not giving you a hard time, Im just curious. As for where its located, its a hard thing to describe in physical terms. With just a shift of perception you can be here, then there because space and time do not really exist in the nonphysical. Since we are stuck to the physical way of perception when people do get out there seems to be a here then there, just because of the way we perceive it. In actuality the best way I can describe here and there in physical terms is that everything occupy the same space, just different vibratory levels. I can only talk from my personal experiences, but lets say I am on a certain spot then I want to get to what you call the way station all I have to do is shift my perception and perhaps hold a part of its image in my mind with the intent and Im there. Im not talking about picturing it as a whole just part of it to focus on the undescribable vibration of the place itself.
    I will tell you others will most definitely say well I get out too but I see distance and space, I have to walk from here to there, but its all a matter of perception that is how I get from place to place. Having said that if you go down in the vibration sense there are some religious type places/people, some other waiting places as if people are waiting for something religious? to happen.  So I guess if you were to perceive space as in from point a to b in physical terms going from low vibration to a higher vibration then some of the religious type places come first then the reception area after. I recall reading that Robert Monroe said that what he called the belief systems/territories were in the way of some people to get to the reception centre, like they would just get sucked into whatever belief that they had. I could be wrong because I read his books a very very long time ago. But in my experiences he was right about what he said, if he did say that Im not sure. I hope this helps, its a convoluted exlaination I know but its the only way I can describe it from my experiences. Regards,
                                                                     T.L.

    Im really not sure what to tell you. A lot of what you are saying sounds like dream content bleeding into your projections. One thing that a lot of people haven't thought about is about the ways in which our thoughts impact us, especially in the projection state. Thoughts are everything, they are action/reaction in the obe state. Also the thoughts you have affect the level at which you are vibrating. It is in my experience the more physical kind of thoughts you have the closer to the physical you will vibrate, the more negative the lower the vibration, etc.. Not only does thoughts affect vibration but you also subconsciously create that which you fear. The subconscious can not tell neg. thoughts or positive desires apart, so it creates whatever it believes you want. As a matter of fact it cant tell what you dont or do want apart, it only creates what is on your mind.
     I believe that for you to learn control of your thoughts will make all the difference even if all you really want to do is go to sleep. As long as you can deter yourself from negative or stray thoughts you will be fine. Its hard work to practice thought control but it can be done, and once you are used to it, it becomes second nature. Hopefully you can move passed the negative experiences and have fun with projection. Good Luck,
                             T.L.

    Im sorry sharpe your reasoning for believing what you do is just nonsense to me. Does one try to mold the truth to make his/her belief fit into the "scheme of things" sure, that is what anyone does who's trying to make a point as to why they are right. When I started projecting I took a step back and observed what was going on with me a ruled out everything one by one. I didnt believe in projection or obe's a long long time ago,as a matter of fact a friend wanted to discuss some of his experiences and I blindly shrugged anything he had to tell me off like he was crazy. I see now that I was the blind one.
     After careful experimentation, and over 80 obes later I have to say the validations Ive had is overwelming personal proof. It is a subjective topic when comparing notes from ones experience to the next because people experience and interpret things differently. If one sees a very bright energy, another sees god instead. If you have a circle of people maybe about 5 sitting in a circle. One reads a sentence in the first persons ear and so on down the circle till the last person hears it, if you ask the last person to repeat it. It will be way out of context when compared to the original sentence. So many people interpret things differently. When it comes to obe's though and what leads up to them everyone is in agreement usually and most of everyone experiences things like a loud buzzing sound, sometimes roaring, and vibrations, and a loud click. Some of which could not even be considered physical sensations. So either all of the hundreds of thousands of people who report obe's are right or they are all "dreaming the same dream" or having the same delusion which is said to be not possible anyway. As far as the laws of attraction go, I never said it is my belief. I also dont buy self help books lol, I have just seen references to physicists who believe it exists. I have also taken from my experiences in the projection state. Also the experiences of others who talk about fear...etc.. when in the obe state. What they think or fear will happen usually does. Its no different from a person who believes tylonel will cure his/her flu if he/she actually believes it will then it usually does. So yes their arguments are very valid ones.
     You saying that some of these things holds no water because the brain builds your own map of reality, not only seems wrong, its nonsense. Im sorry that you see things otherwise, Im always a firm believer of experimenting and seeing who is right. After all you are a materialist, so experiment yourself and see for yourself. There really is no point in arguing about it, just go see for yourself.

     I think the only very major danger of having dmt is that its a scheduled 1 substance and is as illegal to have as heroin. You get caught with it or extracting it you can be assured that the judicial system will throw the book at you trust me. That being said, I think the use in a controlled setting to someone who wants to experience but doesnt fully believe other realities exist can actually be a good thing. Notice I said that dmt use in a controlled setting, I did not say LSD at a friends house was a good thing. If you plan on trying this seriously know the source providing you with the dmt well, or get it from a reputable source. Most have said the more you use dmt in a sitting the more about the experience you will forget. Also that the memories of the experiences are as fleeting as dream memories. I think the most interesting thing is that dmt is arguably the strongest hallucinogen, yet the most common in nature. Our bodies produce it everynight, some common plants produce it, why in the heck is it so illegal? The way I look at it from my experiences is that anything that has the ability to open up the mass populations eyes to something new is frowned upon by the government. Now Im not talking about conspiracy theories etc.. but really look at it objectively.
   There have been inventors that have been raided by the department of defense when attempting to patent a new technology (see the experience of Patrick Flannagen inventor of the neurophone). Others have been listed for subscribing to certain magazines, or logging out certain books at a library. The question is why. I really do believe the reason is that the only way for a government to operate successfully is to keep the general population ignorant, and keeping the stupidity factor high. Think about it seriously, the wiser the population the more we would realize that we dont need as much direction from the government or media as they would like to give. Those are just my observations, but very valid ones. Back to DMT, I think it can be used successfully as a tool for self exploration, but should not be used permanently as the only tool. Once or twice should suffice, then it should be up to one to naturally explore these states. Just be careful, dont do too much at once or you will end up in a frightful experience that will blow your mind and then one you will forget instantly as the experience ends. Good luck.

    I would love to. I dont think though they have the patience to monitor me night after night while attempting to project. Some days I can project and some I cant. Its not very controllable in that manner. Also its not as simple as taking the challenge, you first have to sign up, fill out their paper work. Send it in. Then wait. Some get answered some don't. Then if you do get an answer and they want to put you to a prelim. test you have to pay for the investigators flight, stay etc.. That would mean hundreds just to get the guy to test you, then if it takes 4 days to a week to get project you will be paying for his stay where-ever he decides to stay. When the person succeeds it gets worse. They have to wait to go to do the initial test and needs to get a hundred percent success. If there is even one wrong answer given or 1 percent failure rate they throw out all of the successes. I know this because Ive personally spoken with a few claiments stating that they were ripped off by that challenge and even randi himself. He has a personal axe to grind when it comes to anything paranormal, he doesnt believe and some will say he doesnt want it to exist. Any proof shown to the contrary is just thrown out.
   Dont get me wrong the sword is a double edged one. The same can be said about people who believe in the paranormal. Any evidence given to them that what they experienced was not paranormal they will just throw out in the belief that they are right no matter what. For example someone swears that a "ghost" is opening a door in their house but its just a draft caused by some wind tunneling effect when certain doors/windows are opened and closed. Then when shown the evidence they still disagree with the findings. I have no intentions of coming into contact with people of that kind of mindset, because right or wrong you are the loser in that kind of situation. You can find numerous discussions about randi's "challenge" on multiple forums for legit complaints about it.
   That's neither here nor there though. Whether or not you believe that I do really project myself does not change the fact that I can and do. I would be happy though if you did experience it because its a very freeing thing to experience. There are physicists that say without the consciousness what we perceive the physical world to be wouldnt exist. So in a way the physical world we are living in is just an illusion created by our consciousness, not the other way around. There are other physicists that believe the old occult principle of like attracts like. They explain it in the way that everything exists on a vibration level of some sort. (Which everything does) The difference between something being solid, or not, visible or not visible is the vibration level that said thing is at. Like visible laser light and not visible laser like (infared). There are frequencies that remain undiscovered. Never the less anything that is not close to our vibration we can not experience. This is how those physicists would explain the "law of attraction" That sort of explains why people who always think they are sick do get more ill than the average person, and those who say they never get sick, do rarely get sick. Those who say if I didnt have bad luck I would have no luck at all, always have bad things happen to them. So who are we to say that these physicists are wrong. Life is pretty ambiguous and sometimes there are answers that are both right and wrong. Henry Ford said "Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are right"

     I dont know what to say about you seeing your double from the physical standpoint. My transition into projection is rather smooth, and if I experience anything while transitioning it is mostly from the astral point of view. One thing I can say that you have experienced that I have myself is that when I first get out depending on my perception, I do see very very small white floating dots all over the place. Also before I make the transition a lot of times the hair on different parts of me is standing on end too. I never really pondered on what I thought the white dots are.
    The way it looks would be just like if you were to open up the curtain on your window on a very sunny day to see all the dust being illuminated. So I naturally assumed that in a different state of perception you would see all the dust without the need for it to be illuminated. I guess assumptions are never any good. So if it's really not just dust we are seeing I have no clue. I am as curious as the next person, but my curiousity leads me in what I feel are more important matters such as different dimensions, astral areas etc..  I am glad though that others experience some of the same things, normally because of the different ways people perceive things we always get conflicting or different experiences. For instance when projecting I might see a really brilliant collection of energy that seems to radiate so bright it nearly blinds me and coming into contact with it brings past memories or future memories into the foreground of my mind, if another person who is religious experiences the same exact situation they would say that it was god and god gave them a vision. So you can see how many different people will perceive the same situation differently.

There have been other projectors, and other authors who have described very similar places. In my experiences I have also encountered this area. In my experiences this place seems to be described by Mr. Monroe the best. Either way, Ill just agree that this place does exist.

   Well if you are trying this when you first wake up, technically you are trying it in the hypnopompic state. A lot of people have a ton of success with some interrupted sleep techniques. Which just entail going to sleep for only 5-6 hours waking up and staying up for about an hour doing something such as reading a book on obes etc.. Then after that hour laying back down for an attempt. This seems to be one of the most effective techniques because with only about 5 hours of sleep your body is still needing rest. On the consciousness/mental level 5 hours of sleep is just enough to make it feel refreshed and awake.
   Being up that hour and reading or doing something else to excerise your mind is waking it up and getting it completely away from the hypnopompic state, as to not let it just drift back into sleep. If you were to do the interrupted sleep technique without staying up for this hour and just laying in bed mostly what you will find is you will just lose consciousness and rather quickly. Thats because you are keeping your consciousness so close to sleep that you lose consciousness and falls to sleep, what else would you expect to happen lol. On the physical level as Ive said this is just not enough for the body, plus the staying up for an hour is burning more energy from the already energy lacking physical body. So the physical body upon laying down an hour later will rather quickly succumb to sleep, since the mind is already rested it will not fall to sleep as quickly. Hence you are left with body asleep/mind awake. This technique has worked for a lot of people, some swear by it.

     There could be any number of reasons. Its all up to the person really, with one stray thought you could either end up coming back to the physical body, or end up in a different country. In the out of body state thought is action/reaction. Let's in this thread not get caught up in what people think the out of body state is. For this thread let's just agree that it is a different state of consciousness than the waking state. Never-the-less the projectors thoughts guide the projector, if the projector does not have complete control over his/her thoughts it will have immediate and instantaneous consequences. Also in the waking we can not realize this but time is just an illusion.
    Since we are in the waking now we see it as a real thing. In the obe state time is null and void per se. Sure you could very well and usually do end up in what people call rtz (real time zone). There is also a chance you could end up if your very room except that it doesnt look the same or completely has a different set up or furniture than you have put in your room. You could also end up other places you have lived, and places you havent. The answer I have found to this is just that time does not exist in the obe state. Some think it does etc.. so lets just agree that most find time to be severely subjective in the obe state. You are not held to a specific time while projecting you could end up in the rtz, then decide you want to see something from a different time period of the earth, and end up there.

"an OBE is merely a dream where you position yourself as if you're outside your body.
You allready have a map of the world in your brain so if you're in a dream you can float around in your preconscious where you are aware of what reality looks like in your memory, because every single detail is allready stored in your subconscious."

  This theory you have made seems to be a mixture of your own ideas and the experiment this thread started out talking about. The problem with this theory other than most others experiences being to the contrary is that if you were right in this theory the obe experience would be severely guided by ones expectations. If one can remain impartial while in an obe and then check up on a friend or someone you know, what you might expect them to be doing and what they are actually doing are two entirely different things.
    My experiences in projections were almost always not guided by my expectations what so ever. In relation to geographical information etc.. There have been times when in a projection I run into a part of my town I have never seen, and I think to myself this cant be real. Only to realize that the place I experienced is real, I just never happened upon the place because I never drive on that road. I think there are a ton of reasons why you have the opinions you do, but I dont see any reason to express them here because I know already what you would say. You would just state the exact opposite like anyone else to try to prove that your opinion is not just based on a theory you came up with, with no first hand experiences at all. I think we all realize this thread has run its course. We all agree to disagree =-)

    According to a few scientists, when asked what we really know. The reply was very little. We are not even sure and has yet to be proven that our consciousness actually resides in the brain in the literal sense. "Dude, the brain fills the gap"  This doesnt account for describing a geographical area and its buildings with 95 percent accuracy, when one hasnt even seen the area in person or in images. Its like if a projector was asked to go to a certain area and find a list of generated numbers on a computer monitor. Then he correctly gives the numbers. Then having someone such as yourself say "Dude, the brain fills the gap, it's good in doing that" Also what catmeow pointed out in you saying that if something isnt proven then theres hundred percent chance it doesnt exist. Your logic in this case is nonsense. This thread seems it ran its course, and now we are back where we started.

"Being physically out of your body hasn't been proven in OBE."

When Im projecting its the exact opposite as physical, most refer to it as the non-physical for that reason.


"You allready have a map of the world in your brain"

Assuming that one has seen all of the world. I have purposely while projecting intended to go to some places I have never seen. Paid close attention to details, ended it searched for pictures of that area and personally verified what I had seen. Having never seen that part of the world it should of been impossible for me to bring back the details I did if this was just a dream.

   Personally I dont think it will be possible to 100 percent prove obe's in a scientific manner. Other than verifying numbers, geographical data, and the like while projecting. Proving the non-physical with physical instruments just seems to be next to impossible. If you dont want to try to experiment yourself and wait for science to either prove or disprove before you are even interested, you will most assuredly die physically before that happens.

 "What I personally would love to see is that people didn’t immediately draw conclusions on the meaning of the experience (i.e. survival after death simply because they perceived themselves separate from their body),"
   
I dont think that a lot of people just jump to the assumption automatically once they do have an obe. Im sure that some do, but I think a lot of it has to do with them seeing dead relatives. The first conclusion I had was that I was going insane when I did succeed in an obe heh.
 
"When one is asleep, one can still feel physical stimuli, generally though internal stimuli (dreams) are more dominant than the physical stimuli which gets filtered by the subconscious. Some of this can make it to dreams, such as an alarm clock integrating itself into a dream, or even things like nova-dreamer. This is a device which detects rem movement and then flashes a light into the eyes, through reality checking, one will notice the incorporated flashing and use it as a cue to become lucid."
 
 This is one of the cases where the wording I used wasnt great. I know you can sometimes notice in your dreams the radio or commercials or whats going around you and your subconscious will integrate it in the dream you are having. What I meant though is consciously feel while your body is asleep. For example have someone doing something to someone physically that wont wake the person up consciously then wake the person up and have them repeat what was done to them.
 
 About the reincarnation thing. You mentioned people assume that this is a possibility because they can obe or from the obe experience. Before I could even project I believed in this as a possibility. Well believe isnt the right word, I knew it was. I guess I was lucky but I have this incredible ability to remember things very very far back. For instance I could remember things as a child before I could even walk. My mother a while back was pretty skeptic about this when I told her. So I recounted to her an experience before I could walk and could only crawl.
  The experience was basically that I was curious about these shoes they were cowboy boots and I seen people putting on shoes so I was curious to see if I could put them on lol. I crawled up to them knocked them over and tried to put a leg in one. My mother picked me up turned me over and layed me down to change my diaper. There were more details about the house I recounted to her that there would be no way of me knowing any of it unless I actually remembered it because back then she didnt take many pictures of anything at all, I only have one baby picture of myself.
  Anyway I can only remember so far back but if I try my hardest to remember something further than that I get all these memories of going to plays/operas and the way people are dressed points to how people dressed ages ago. This was real memories also not dream memories Im talking about.  So at a very young age I automatically believed in multiple lives except I didnt know as a child the term reincarnation. I also thought it as a natural thing everyone believed heh I was wrong about that. There used to be this show "proof positive" in which they take 3 stories/myths and put them to the test and shows which story held up to the evidence. There was this police officer who was sort of dared to go to a hypnotist to get a past life regression done. He didnt believe in it but went anyhow to prove the people wrong who believe in it. In the regression who starts to remember very descriptive details that he was a painter and described the paintings he had done in detail. He even remembered his name. The name, the fact that he was a painter, the actual paintings existed and eventually they came across a historic centre who had the actual painters diary. All details the officer recalled were true and fact.
  To prove this guy wasnt just making it up or lying to them they gave him a polygraph test in which he completely passed. This is just one example but there are tons in which people have personally verified the details they recalled later.
  Truth be told I wish that reincarnation wasnt a possibility because I really dont like the idea of physical lives. I dont mean that in a melodramatic or depressed way either. I have a good life, I have a fiance, a beautiful daughter and Im not homeless. I have a better than average car.. etc. So Im not saying life sucks in an "emo" way. I just mean that I know there are other possibilities, ive been there and that Id rather spend my "life" other ways than being stuck in the physical.
  One last thing is that science says that energy can not be completely destroyed. If we burn something for instance we just changed its chemical make up its not really destroyed. So even if we were to acknowledge that the brain created our consciousness,the mind and its thoughts are a form of energy so it can not therefore be completely destroyed. It's a cliche argument Im sure but its right.
    Im just glad we can (on this forum) debate things in a mature manner. Other forums it ends up being too personal. Regards,
                            T.L.