According to a few scientists, when asked what we really know. The reply was very little. We are not even sure and has yet to be proven that our consciousness actually resides in the brain in the literal sense. "Dude, the brain fills the gap"  This doesnt account for describing a geographical area and its buildings with 95 percent accuracy, when one hasnt even seen the area in person or in images. Its like if a projector was asked to go to a certain area and find a list of generated numbers on a computer monitor. Then he correctly gives the numbers. Then having someone such as yourself say "Dude, the brain fills the gap, it's good in doing that" Also what catmeow pointed out in you saying that if something isnt proven then theres hundred percent chance it doesnt exist. Your logic in this case is nonsense. This thread seems it ran its course, and now we are back where we started.

"Being physically out of your body hasn't been proven in OBE."

When Im projecting its the exact opposite as physical, most refer to it as the non-physical for that reason.


"You allready have a map of the world in your brain"

Assuming that one has seen all of the world. I have purposely while projecting intended to go to some places I have never seen. Paid close attention to details, ended it searched for pictures of that area and personally verified what I had seen. Having never seen that part of the world it should of been impossible for me to bring back the details I did if this was just a dream.

   Personally I dont think it will be possible to 100 percent prove obe's in a scientific manner. Other than verifying numbers, geographical data, and the like while projecting. Proving the non-physical with physical instruments just seems to be next to impossible. If you dont want to try to experiment yourself and wait for science to either prove or disprove before you are even interested, you will most assuredly die physically before that happens.

 "What I personally would love to see is that people didn’t immediately draw conclusions on the meaning of the experience (i.e. survival after death simply because they perceived themselves separate from their body),"
   
I dont think that a lot of people just jump to the assumption automatically once they do have an obe. Im sure that some do, but I think a lot of it has to do with them seeing dead relatives. The first conclusion I had was that I was going insane when I did succeed in an obe heh.
 
"When one is asleep, one can still feel physical stimuli, generally though internal stimuli (dreams) are more dominant than the physical stimuli which gets filtered by the subconscious. Some of this can make it to dreams, such as an alarm clock integrating itself into a dream, or even things like nova-dreamer. This is a device which detects rem movement and then flashes a light into the eyes, through reality checking, one will notice the incorporated flashing and use it as a cue to become lucid."
 
 This is one of the cases where the wording I used wasnt great. I know you can sometimes notice in your dreams the radio or commercials or whats going around you and your subconscious will integrate it in the dream you are having. What I meant though is consciously feel while your body is asleep. For example have someone doing something to someone physically that wont wake the person up consciously then wake the person up and have them repeat what was done to them.
 
 About the reincarnation thing. You mentioned people assume that this is a possibility because they can obe or from the obe experience. Before I could even project I believed in this as a possibility. Well believe isnt the right word, I knew it was. I guess I was lucky but I have this incredible ability to remember things very very far back. For instance I could remember things as a child before I could even walk. My mother a while back was pretty skeptic about this when I told her. So I recounted to her an experience before I could walk and could only crawl.
  The experience was basically that I was curious about these shoes they were cowboy boots and I seen people putting on shoes so I was curious to see if I could put them on lol. I crawled up to them knocked them over and tried to put a leg in one. My mother picked me up turned me over and layed me down to change my diaper. There were more details about the house I recounted to her that there would be no way of me knowing any of it unless I actually remembered it because back then she didnt take many pictures of anything at all, I only have one baby picture of myself.
  Anyway I can only remember so far back but if I try my hardest to remember something further than that I get all these memories of going to plays/operas and the way people are dressed points to how people dressed ages ago. This was real memories also not dream memories Im talking about.  So at a very young age I automatically believed in multiple lives except I didnt know as a child the term reincarnation. I also thought it as a natural thing everyone believed heh I was wrong about that. There used to be this show "proof positive" in which they take 3 stories/myths and put them to the test and shows which story held up to the evidence. There was this police officer who was sort of dared to go to a hypnotist to get a past life regression done. He didnt believe in it but went anyhow to prove the people wrong who believe in it. In the regression who starts to remember very descriptive details that he was a painter and described the paintings he had done in detail. He even remembered his name. The name, the fact that he was a painter, the actual paintings existed and eventually they came across a historic centre who had the actual painters diary. All details the officer recalled were true and fact.
  To prove this guy wasnt just making it up or lying to them they gave him a polygraph test in which he completely passed. This is just one example but there are tons in which people have personally verified the details they recalled later.
  Truth be told I wish that reincarnation wasnt a possibility because I really dont like the idea of physical lives. I dont mean that in a melodramatic or depressed way either. I have a good life, I have a fiance, a beautiful daughter and Im not homeless. I have a better than average car.. etc. So Im not saying life sucks in an "emo" way. I just mean that I know there are other possibilities, ive been there and that Id rather spend my "life" other ways than being stuck in the physical.
  One last thing is that science says that energy can not be completely destroyed. If we burn something for instance we just changed its chemical make up its not really destroyed. So even if we were to acknowledge that the brain created our consciousness,the mind and its thoughts are a form of energy so it can not therefore be completely destroyed. It's a cliche argument Im sure but its right.
    Im just glad we can (on this forum) debate things in a mature manner. Other forums it ends up being too personal. Regards,
                            T.L.

From the article:
 Out-of-body experience recreated:
"Experts have found a way to trigger an out-of-body experience in volunteers."

"The article is talking about out of body sensations, not THE out of body experience."
 The article claimed that scientists triggered an obe in the volunteers not that they were able to trigger sensations of an obe. I think there is a distinct difference. As I've admitted and said earlier I have created some sensations in which I felt I was out but wasnt really.

"Why has an experience got to be life changing oto have any merit or use?"
It was an observation that people who have had what most on this forum would consider a real full blown obe, does change most peoples opinions on the matters of life and death. Im sure perhaps there have been a couple who perhaps it didnt or a few that it scared more than actually helped. Lets say a group of 10 people have obes. Normally around 7 would walk away changed in a huge way (this is assuming that all ten werent too freaked out by it)

Also it does not mean that the way you created the effect is how the effect is always created.
"Agreed, but I’ve not seen anyone claim such a thing"

The article is assuming the reason in which people in their experiment felt as if they were out of body is the same reason those that do actually get out feel as though they are out.

"Also, how can you be so certain that your OBEs have not been a physical illusion? I mean really, how can you ‘know’?"

Each and everytime my body itself has been asleep. According to sleep professionals while the body is asleep you can not consciously feel physical sensations. At least that is what they used to claim. To be a purely physical illusion such as you suggest my physical body would have to be awake, would it not? In the experiement the volunteers were completely awake and capable of feeling physical stimulis. In my obes my physical body is asleep, paralyzed, and Im not capable of consciously feeling anything physical.

  Its not my intention on arguing though. If you dont agree with anything I have to say thats fine. I know a lot of what I have to say usually seems abstract. There are times I admit though the way I word things is wrong, sorry about that. I dont have anything against science, without it the world would still be in the dark ages.
   As a matter of fact in school it was my favorite subject and there was a year or two where I went without making one single mistake on any of the tests,quizzes or homework. I also dont think people should take what others say as fact until they experience it for theirselves.  All I ask is to let the possibility intrigue you, and a willingness to give it a try. I had some friends who have thought of me as being crazy, gave what I suggested a few tries and then admit to me they were succeeding and it scared the sh*t out of them. To me its fine if science never acknowledges obe's as a real thing, that is okay. It's also part of why it is so special. A good majority thinks it does not exist yet it still does, to me that's a special thing and why I feel so honored to have been able to do it as much as I have. I still remember when sleep professionals said that what some termed lucid dreaming was impossible because in sleep the conscious mind could not possibly become active.
   

I believe that they will try to use this as the "final word" when it comes to obes though. If they dont thats great if they do then its laughable. That is why I say that imitating something or duplicating an effect does not verify nor deny its reality. Also it does not mean that the way you created the effect is how the effect is always created. There are always different paths you can take to the same destination as someone else, and either one could not be considered the right or wrong way as you both ended up at the same place. Having said that a quote from the paper mentioned: "It gives you a very strong sensation you're sitting somewhere else" Okay Ive had a strong sensation I was some where else that did not mean I had a obe, once again its laughable. A good example was sitting in a chair staring at a full length mirror for an extended period of time, concentrating on the fact that perhaps I am not where I think I am to be instead I could be the person staring at me from inside the mirror. This was an exercise I thought of to practice consciousness/awareness placement or displacement. A good 20 minutes of this and with a little zoning off I was no longer sure which me was me. Sure it was a weird and confusing sensation but it was not life changing, truth be told I forgot about that exercise till just now when I was thinking of a close example.
  It certainly felt as though I was the other person in the mirror and sure it confused me. Such as the experiment mentioned confused the experiencer but I am sure they will not walk away from this with a life changing attitude. The main point was it was an physical illusion they witnessed. Now how many people who have had a full blown obe walked away from the experience completely changed especially in the way they view life? Probably around 90 percent and the others are scared to death but never-the-less changed lol, after all that is what motivates me to record my experiences and what keeps me here to talk about it with others to help them to achieve what I have, so that they too can be changed in this way.

I want to see you breathe in space 

First time Ive heard of this.

I really try to ignore sensations while Im attempting to reach a deep meditative state. Having said that, from time to time out of no where I feel an intense rising sensation, and some other movement sensations which will make me pretty dizzy/disorientated and very nauseous to the point where if I dont stop my attempt I will vomit. Doesnt happen every time, which is good, but perhaps once out of every 6-7, sometimes a little less. Im not sure what most of you here consider to be meditation though. A while back when I was talking to some people on forums, the way they talked about meditation seemed like they thought all it was was being in a calm relaxed state and that was it. Very odd, that one would think thats all there is to meditation if it were I would not even meditate. It is true some people can go deeper than others but with practice every one can go as deep as they like. When in a meditative state anything I think about I can see before me, if I were to think of a past memory I can relive it and even manipulate it to a certain point, such as viewing a movie and playing it in slow motion, freezing it etc.. The main difference being the realism and feelings of complete bi-location and being able to feel things in a physical way. For sure going this deep takes a lot of practice. It took me about 4 months to get really deep it took years to be able to actually achieve it when I wanted and to control the experience.
   I didnt mean to go on a rant about it, just wanted to add something to this thread. Meditation is a good thing to practice, especially if you are working torwards astral projection/oobe's which is the reason I got into meditation in the first place and it has done wonders for me. Plus the ability to have control over ones own thoughts especially when out of body is a very good thing as it enables one to control the experience better and not be bouncing around literally from place to place..etc.. because the mind is going all over the place. So Im glad that not everyone is trying to take shortcuts =-)

Tongo I know on astral society they were bashing you pretty hard for what you said. I think it was thier frustration that you didnt go and read all of the past posts on things and topics that you brought up. I know you just have a healthy skepticism about you and thats good, just dont claim that something isnt real because you think it isnt, just be a skeptic and say I dont think ...etc..etc.. or maybe its... Im all for being skeptic till you experience thats great. In my definition of LD (Lucid Dream) I have full control, not just control over me but control over the place I can change the place at will, completely dissolve the dreamscape and start fresh, I have full control over everything, people, places, actions, reactions. That is how I define lucid dream. There are different degrees of lucidity but I only define LD's as LD's when I can control everything and I know who I am in physical life etc... Ill know Im in my bed and even what position I lay in even while being in a dreamscape. I like your skepticism though its a good thing dont let anyone tell you different, just be careful how you approach subjects is all Im saying.

Not very much use is a pretty ignorant thing to say. Ignorant as in not knowing. Each has his/her own opinion but saying no use goes beyond the opinion line, even sleep experts will tell you that it can have real applications. In your example where you said shall I wake up or hang around a bit, it sounds more like you had a semi lucid dream. You were aware you were dreaming but I dont think you were aware you have full control over the dream. Even if you were to argue that lucid dreams are the only thing possible and ap is not, you would still have to see the real applications lucid dreams have. For example people with a fear of heights can use a lucid dream to confront their fear and know all at the same time that they are perfectly safe. Any real life fear can be worked out, and there are more applications than just that, thats just an example. So to say that Lucid dreams have not really much use, is pretty much wrong and just an assumption. Regards,
                         T.L.

This is pretty hilarious. Okay tongo, you said in the first post on this topic that you are following up to a post you previously made. Someone here replied then you replied with a second post. Under you name it says you have only made two posts on astral pulse. The two posts you made were in this topic alone, so therefore you had no previous post on astral pulse forums. I know what you are referring to also, you are referring to a post you made on Astral Society forums, not Astral Pulse. Where in rather broken english claim that astral projection is nothing more than a dream, and therefore not real at all. That about sums it up, right?

I find the best way really to let your subconscious know your intent is to read as much as possible about projection especially before bedtime. Some good authors to look up on the subject. Robert A. Monroe; Robert Bruce; Sylvan Muldoon; Rosalind A. Mcknight; William Buhlman, those are just a few but will keep you reading for a while. Good luck. Regards,
                                                         T.L.

Congrats on that. Took a little over a year for me as well, that was a long while ago. Good luck in the future.

Its undeniable that people who have never read about each other, or heard each others' stories have gotten all the sensations leading up to and after an obe. Thousands of people have started to get it on their own without even reading about projection, and are left clueless as to whats going on with them. Even before I succeeded at it I knew there was something to it when I was researching it, some of it had to be true for thousands of people to have the same thing going on with them. I just remained skeptical that everyone was able to do it until I was able to.  Before lucid dreams or projections even were a well known thing a guy who wrote by the name of Oliver Fox wrote a book on his experiences about "Dreams of knowing" He realized he was able to become conscious in dreams. This was even before the term lucid dream was even coined. An interesting thing though about this whole story is that he was at will able to have lucid dreams. He loved them so much and was so curious he never wanted it to end but each time he would wake up unwillingly. He fought to stay in the state until one time the pressure was so great he was about to give up on it and all of a sudden he heard a loud click and the resistance was gone he was able to stay in that state for a while and continue with his experiments.

A lot of people say dreams take place in the astral. So really its anyones guess. I would say you were in part of it. I have from time to time acted like an idiot. Things like trying to communicate with someone yet not being able to stay in one place because I cant keep my mind under control, or thinking I know more than I really do when in a projection. I have learned to listen very closely to what Im being told, even if I dont see the point in it I will probably figure it out later.