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Author Topic: Ecstasy of Saint Teresa, or how I came to experience Primal Union with Creation  (Read 355 times)
Stillwater
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« on: October 20, 2014, 07:51:16 »

I place this here, rather than in the Energy section because I don't frankly have a clue what an energy body is. That stuff is outside of my sphere.  )

Well, I can say now that I may have been visited by one of those peak experiences that defines the heights of what spirituality can offer to humanity, and I feel as though I have been given a glimpse of a sacred gift of the first order.

It happened by accident almost, but for the reader's benefit, and to explain what it was, and what context I have to understand it at all, I will preface with the famous story of Saint Teresa.

Teresa of Avila was a nun who practiced devotional mysticism. She spent much of her time in deep meditation contemplating her idea of divinity in the Catholic tradition that was known to her. The episode of her life for which she is most famous came during a time she fell ill, and during that time her devotional meditation brought her by chance an episode of supreme ecstasy which overcame her completely, which she understood as sexual union with the godhead.

"I saw in his hand a long spear of gold, and at the iron's point there seemed to be a little fire. He appeared to me to be thrusting it at times into my heart, and to pierce my very entrails; when he drew it out, he seemed to draw them out also, and to leave me all on fire with a great love of God. The pain was so great, that it made me moan; and yet so surpassing was the sweetness of this excessive pain, that I could not wish to be rid of it. The soul is satisfied now with nothing less than God. The pain is not bodily, but spiritual; though the body has its share in it. It is a caressing of love so sweet which now takes place between the soul and God, that I pray God of His goodness to make him experience it who may think that I am lying."

Even as a child, I was captivated by that story, and especially by the overwhelmingly beautiful sculptural depiction of the event by Bernini. Such rapture! Her face is contorted into twisted torsions of joy, and her frame has collapsed from the weight of it as she convulses. Ever since learning of the story, I can say that the idea of such an overwhelming experience- to be visited as the lover of the divine- was one of the most compelling concepts I ever found in spiritual texts.

Not to mention, I have always admired how, even amongst the sexual repression of the Catholic Church, Bernini was able to tell the unabashedly immoderate story of how human sensuality is a gift for understanding and communing with the infinite! What a curiously surprising thing for nuns and school children to see enshrined in a Catholic Cathedral.


 


The next thing I will preface with is that I have always had great love for the Hindu Upanishads. They were my first experience of spirituality, and a powerful first introduction to meditation, trance, and altered states. I discovered them as a child, maybe only 12 or so. I delighted in the idea that there were these ideas and experiences that normal people never got an opportunity to experience, that you could unlock merely by understanding your body and gaining control of your mind. I took away from those experiences many great gifts even then: an overriding love for the world and all of its inhabitants, a wonderful stillness of mind that brought me both joy and the mindfullness to be in control of my own thoughts, and the concept that the body and sensuality are a gift that is the birthright of humanity.

I am not certain if I am just pre-disposed to be a sensual person, or if it is life experiences like that, but it is worth pointing out that sense experiences (paintings, music, literary imagery) can be extremely powerful for me. Very often music that resonates with me will send waves of feeling over my skin, and pulses through my spine.

So on to the experience itself.

I have for a little while been revisiting the exercises and techniques I recall from the Upanishads. I had decided that where I am now in my life, I have more perspective to understand them, and to apply what I learned then with what I know now. And that turned out to be miraculously true.

Many people here will be familiar with the Chakra system concept. I have my own views on what this system is, but I won't go into those here. Those familiar will know the concept that the base chakra is the root of the body's energy, which is heavily sensual in nature, and gets transduced into other forms. At least that is the Hindu understanding, and what many practitioners believe today. Suffice to say that the exercise I was following from memory dealt with this transduction.

Many people may also be familiar with the concept that the yogis will never explain their full techniques, or put them into writing, because they are believed to be incredibly dangerous for untrained eyes to find. I am also of this belief, and so I will not here publish the exact thing I was doing, for fear that others may find it at the wrong time on their path and do themselves harm; I am incredibly sorry to be such a tease with something this sublime, although those of you who want more details can discuss it via PM. I can say I am of the belief that with the right knowledge, likely any healthy and fit person can experience what I experienced then. But it would be irresponsible of me to post such things here.

Suffice to say, I was on my back, after having entered heavy trance, and was in the process that the yogi's understood to be the transferance of energy from the low center upward. My reasons for following these exercises was to explore the effects, and note the sensations from my current life perspective. Note... the sensations. These words proved very weak for what happened next. With very little warning, there was a sharp contraction in my abdomen, and a surge of sensation shot along my spine. These sensations repeated and quickly intensified. Soon I was arching my back, and massive waves of sensual feeling were surging through my limbs, neck, face, extremities... the motions were the semi-voluntary means to flow with the feeling, but they soon became near involuntary. My entire form was wracked with force of such great intensity it filled every nerve with hyper-peak excitement, and it was impossible not to gasp and vocalize very strongly with the overwhelming force of it all. My shoulders, as they took on the weight of my body as my spine arched into the air fiercely, throbbed and pulsated as though being massaged by angels. My toes curled as far as they could move. I think the female readers will have some context for partially understanding these sensations, but their magnitude was astronomical.

As I have remarked, I am an extremely sensual person. I feel most things far more strongly than most. Up till now, I would rate the highest intensity my nervous system has ever responded with at a 12 out of 10, lol. This was a 50 out of 10. It was outside of anything I expected human forms capable of experiencing. It was a perfect union of agony and electrifying full body response. It lasted for what I surmise was a few minutes, but was an eternal moment, and it left me unable to move or do anything but rest for a long time afterward. As my form writhed and shrieked, it was for a moment an extinction of self and a union with everything. I was the bed, I was the air, I was creation itself, and I was burning with the power of a star. When it "ended" (I am not sure it even has yet) I was both flooded with joy and filled with relief to have come through to the other side of it. It was every bit the supremely exhilerating visitation from the godhead, and the effects are as much emotional as they were physical.

The event itself is something that has lasting echoes as well. I still feel tingling nerves playing over my limbs for large parts of the day, even a week later now. It is as though a powerful amount of energy has been transduced into pure joy that animates my entire life. Walking is like dancing. While I have always felt a strong connection between myself and the natural world while outdoors, now it is like I am part of a chorus. Running is like sex. I feel waves of feverish heat still flowing over my body as aftershocks. I get the impression that even though I know how to make it happen again in theory, that I would be ill-advised to try, because I am still coming to terms with the effects of it having happened even once. I don't even know how long these effects will be with me... if it is like my childhood, maybe forever.

I very much understand now why the Hindus feel base Chakra energy is the fire that fuels everything, and that its transduction is a supremely powerful action. Perhaps this is what people refer to as "Kundalini" these days, although for me the experience was very spinal, but without that painful twisting people report of that event. Even so, I don't think it is wise for me to follow further down that path, because the bodily effects are profound, and are clearly outside of my control. It may be years before I feel up to allowing it to happen a second time. I feel like a thimble that was asked to hold a river. In fact, the shock of it all prevented me from expressing it here until today. Even now, I feel my shoulders throb and heave. I have long overflown.

English is a powerful, powerful language, but there is only so much you can express in words. Bernini's Ecstasy of Saint Teresa above is a much greater attempt at the concept than I can provide. I can't help look at her image now, and think to myself, "Yeah, I get it Sister."

I hope this helps someone, in some way!
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« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2014, 09:22:07 »

Thank you for sharing that. I take it this recently happened. I would suggest taking it easy and allowing the effects to settle. You not done cooking yet and you need to be healed and adjusted to the energy before the next step can happen.

  What you experienced is similar to what happened to me at initiation. About a month later I had this happen again and it continues. My teacher is helping me to learn to use the energy and manage it appropriately.
Now when things settle and your feeling kinda dumped back into a reality you don't really want to be in. You call on God for help, when you do open your heart and focus on the area that hurts. The pain will then disapate. Do the same for any physical pain as well.

Don't try to push for the highs just relax and try to go with the flow you cannot force this. You still have to live in the physical which is why it's important to come fully back after the rush happens. I know I struggle with it. I have to be forced back and sometimes it's so difficult emotionally to leave that bliss. But what I have been told is that it's important to bring this energy this goodness to people who do not yet have it. Everyone is meant to experience this and those who discover this union can help those who are still wandering. The union is incomplete without the rest of humanity there with us. We cannot leave the others behind.

When that last gate opened I thought I had been killed. When I saw the account of St. Theresa I felt a bit better. It wasn't so much the physical pain as it was emotional as I thought I had failed and was being struck down. It wasn't pleasant I was able to break the illusion after I " died". The entire ritual took 3 days. On the third day I was healed and able to get up.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 09:29:41 by Bluefirephoenix » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2014, 09:22:07 »

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Szaxx
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« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2014, 14:34:51 »

How eloquently worded.
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« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2014, 17:30:43 »

That's awesome, Stillwater!!    Catholics choose a favorite saint's name to add to their own name, and when I joined my church, I chose Teresa of Avilla.  I've always felt such a kinship with her because of our similar experiences.  My first was in my 20's and have continued every so often to the present.  Such a beautiful thing... that total union and intimacy with God.  So hard to live in the world after, but who would trade it?

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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2014, 18:01:39 »

Love this Christian song by Third Day.  To me it says it all.  I play it on my guitar and sing it to God.

Nothing Compares

I've heard all the stories,  I've seen all the signs  
Witnessed all the glory, tasted all that's fine

But nothing compares...to the greatness of knowing you, Lord   (2x)

I've seen all the people, wasting all their time
building up their riches, for a life that's fine

But nothing compares... to the greatness of knowing you, Lord  (2x)

So I find myself just living for today
Cuz I don't know what tomorrow's gonna bring
so no matter if I rise or fall
I'll never be alone...

Nothing compares.....  etc.!
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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2014, 18:50:50 »

Finally somebody post about this! I had a similar experience back when I was still a catholic with no knowledge of metaphysics.. I had a very deep love and affection to Jesus Christ and then it just happen, everything becomes soo blissful.. It lasted for a few months and I lost it after I had a sexual contact.. I would never forget those times, the ecstatic, euphoric and blissful feeling.. I think this is the kind of feeling that the people experiences during higher spiritual dimension projection or near-death experience..
I want that bliss to return but it just couldn't happen since my eyes had been open to metaphysics I just couldn't love Jesus deeply no more.. My faith is just gone
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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2014, 23:09:36 »

Quote
Thank you for sharing that.

In a way I felt very obligated. It is something that is rarely discussed or experienced, but something I would want many people to be aware exists and is very real. I wish I could show others how to get there, if I didn't feel it could be so dangerous as well.

Quote
I would suggest taking it easy and allowing the effects to settle. You not done cooking yet and you need to be healed and adjusted to the energy before the next step can happen.

Yeah, for sure. Right now, every time I settle down into bed, my arms are telling me, "Hey! This is where it happened! Take us back there, won't you?". It is something my body longs to experience again, but I don't feel I should go back until I understand it more fully after a long stretch of time. It feels like too much too quickly, and getting burned feels a very real result of getting too far.

Quote
What you experienced is similar to what happened to me at initiation. About a month later I had this happen again and it continues.

It would be good of you to share anything you were comfortable with- what started it all for you, how it went down, and how you dealt with it in the long term. Did you ever put any of it into writing?

Quote
Don't try to push for the highs just relax and try to go with the flow you cannot force this. You still have to live in the physical which is why it's important to come fully back after the rush happens. I know I struggle with it. I have to be forced back and sometimes it's so difficult emotionally to leave that bliss.

Yes, that violently electrified place feels like a second home I have returned from somehow now. I get the impression that when I am ready to visit again, I should take it very slowly, and allow the feeling to develop at a much gentler pace. Going from intensity 5 to intensity 50 was too much too soon. It was sublimely exhilerating, but it seems unwise to repeat in the same way. It has already changed my experience of the physical world. My perspective had already been heavily altered by years of spiritual practice, and this has put me yet another huge rung up the ladder to being terribly out of sync with modern physical life. If you saw me, you might mistake me for a person overdosing on antidepressants. Normal people don't have a context for understanding a person in this state. I am unnaturally animated.

Quote
But what I have been told is that it's important to bring this energy this goodness to people who do not yet have it. Everyone is meant to experience this and those who discover this union can help those who are still wandering. The union is incomplete without the rest of humanity there with us. We cannot leave the others behind.

I feel this very strongly too. There is no way to share to any given person what that sort of experience is like. I was allowed to get a peek of a shadow of the infinite, and yet I am sworn to secrecy. The best I can do is to treat those around me with the greatest warmth and care I can muster at all times, without making them uncomfortable at my uninhibited expressiveness.

Thanks for sharing your perspective so far, Blue! There really isn't a handbook for this.
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« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2014, 23:14:21 »

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That's awesome, Stillwater!!    Catholics choose a favorite saint's name to add to their own name, and when I joined my church, I chose Teresa of Avilla.  I've always felt such a kinship with her because of our similar experiences.  My first was in my 20's and have continued every so often to the present.  Such a beautiful thing... that total union and intimacy with God.  So hard to live in the world after, but who would trade it?

Having spent a lot of time in a Catholic setting, I knew many Teresas... all incredibly uninhibited people, with powerful dedications to serving others, and some of them are lifelong friends.

I am wondering what their mothers knew at this point, haha.  cheesy
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« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2014, 23:23:01 »

Quote
Finally somebody post about this! I had a similar experience back when I was still a catholic with no knowledge of metaphysics.. I had a very deep love and affection to Jesus Christ and then it just happen, everything becomes soo blissful.. It lasted for a few months and I lost it after I had a sexual contact.. I would never forget those times, the ecstatic, euphoric and blissful feeling.. I think this is the kind of feeling that the people experiences during higher spiritual dimension projection or near-death experience..

As I say, I feel obligated to talk about it. It seems like something I shouldn't keep to myself, especially in a place like this, where people have some background to understand it, or have even experienced it themselves. I would like many people to be aware that this is something real that they can easily experience, and that it can reshape their lives and perspectives powerfully. I know this after merely a week.

Quote
I want that bliss to return but it just couldn't happen since my eyes had been open to metaphysics I just couldn't love Jesus deeply no more.. My faith is just gone

I don't think creation or the creator cares what it is called. Just because you experienced that devotion in one name, doesn't mean you still can't have a very personal connection to it by the name you now know it by, or that you are knowing a different being! I think what you experienced then is still available to you now, if you are open to it!


Quote
How eloquently worded.

And thanks Szaxx! Something tells me you have been there before too.
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« Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 00:29:25 »

Good stuff.
This thread should be sticky. May help some people understand what they are living through.
Very well described Stillwater.
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« Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 06:30:08 »

First one,
burning with the eternal flame,
Corkscrewed spine and oh that pain,
Contortions outside inside the mind,
Tranqil essence all one did find.
Is life is death is that there,
I lost this one too young despaired.
 
I was helped out from this initial experience. The second one a couple of years later after learning a great deal from astral experiences.

I had control of this one. Anyone experiencing it should be passive. It will run away with you if you're not ready as I found out the first time.
In one word bliss, you don't want to return.
I assume it's a connection with the source, the experience is in a class of its own and you do return partly in those formless experiences from time to time.
I wasn't 10 years old the first time so innocence and being introduced to the astral proper for a short time only gave me help from guides. They knew I was ready for the experience, I had other ideas at that time. Being on my own in this was one way of learning by boundaries being pushed beyond what you think are your limits.

Three years ago I read about the kundalini experiences and thought this explained some of it.
The religious characters I saw that helped were affectionate. I had seen them previously at my point of transition from the RTZ to astral guided tour. Things have opened up words can't even attempt to address.

Eloquence is the nearest description to it all.

The tears of joy in the flames of life.

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« Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 07:10:13 »

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I had control of this one. Anyone experiencing it should be passive. It will run away with you if you're not ready as I found out the first time.

In one sense, I was passive in allowing it to take me where it wanted, and in giving it an exit path through my body's ports by flowing with it. Perhaps this was also inviting it in a dangerous way. When I first felt it flooding in, I was very open to it. It hit violently, but I think the intensity it reached may have been a factor of a submission to it. I embraced the experience, and intrinsically told it I would go where it wanted to take me. Looking back, I am not sure if things would have been different had I not been open to it, but I suspect this open-ness allowed the energy to reach peaks of terrifyingly out of control intensity that might not otherwise have happened.

I am thankful that there was very little in what I would call a conventional understanding of pain. The pain of it was partially my nervous system being stressed beyond what its capacity can safely cope with (being overloaded), and the over-straining of muscles beyond what they could contract to, while still trying to contract more, combined with a fear of the violence of it (but this fear was overshadowed by the ecstasy).

The next time this happens, I think that I will still be open to it, but I will implore it to take its time. I can see that going with it where it wants to go full speed can possibly be ruinous.

And flames is right. The Christian concept that even a shadow of the experience of God will consume a person in flame for its brilliance is an apt description of all of this. 
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« Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 07:53:26 »

At first it was only like a needle in the back for me. Made me feel quite uncomfortable.
Then a small knife, then a dagger, the more it went the more it felt uncomfortable.
The evolution took it's time and I didn't know what it was until I saw this post Stillwater.
Everyday it felt really weird going to sleep because I knew it was gonna happen again and again.
At first I was really scared. Then I understood that it wasn't damaging me. My attitude changed to a challenging one.
-Oh yeah you wanna stab me? Go ahead I ain't scared!
Then as soon as I fell asleep, it took another stab. One that felt so uncomfortable.
When I understood that I couldn't stop the contact that was gonna happen when I was about to sleep,
I started calming down and accept it was gonna happen again.
It did, almost every night when I was sleeping on my right side.
Then I understood it was a contact, but I didn't know what kind or anything.
The more it happened the stranger it felt and one day I started enjoying it, because to me it was a real manifestation.
When you finally change your attitude about it (for me I didn't know what it was so I took that as an aggression).
Then that manifestation will grow even stronger each time.
I felt it once going through from my back to my chest and my back just curved automatically backward.
It feels as if god went straight through you.
It's very ecstatic and a blissful experience.
It's as if every night when you go to sleep you die and you are reborn the next day.

It feels exceptional to live this experience.
I'm not sure but I think only the ones who have unbreakable faith get this kind of "special treatment" if we can say so.
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« Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 11:09:13 »

In the physical world time is linear, wherever the experience comes from time doesn't seem to exist.. It appeared almost instantly and not being ready for it was an experience in itself.
Wanting more time makes perfect sense, I had this the second time and was able to control the depth.
Once mastered you're free of fear and know it.
Your comment gave the recall immediately upon reading it. Worth keeping in mind for sure.lol
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« Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 14:00:28 »

In the physical world time is linear, wherever the experience comes from time doesn't seem to exist.. It appeared almost instantly and not being ready for it was an experience in itself.
Wanting more time makes perfect sense, I had this the second time and was able to control the depth.
Once mastered you're free of fear and know it.
Your comment gave the recall immediately upon reading it. Worth keeping in mind for sure.lol

Lol Szaxx you are spot on, it took me more than 2 times before understanding what was happening for me lol.
And you're right it makes you face your fears.
It's as if your god understood you and was making you advance faster toward the next step by showing you directly all your fears.
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« Reply #15 on: Today at 04:27:51 »

Quote
At first it was only like a needle in the back for me. Made me feel quite uncomfortable.
Then a small knife, then a dagger, the more it went the more it felt uncomfortable.
The evolution took it's time and I didn't know what it was until I saw this post Stillwater.
Everyday it felt really weird going to sleep because I knew it was gonna happen again and again.
At first I was really scared. Then I understood that it wasn't damaging me. My attitude changed to a challenging one.
-Oh yeah you wanna stab me? Go ahead I ain't scared!
Then as soon as I fell asleep, it took another stab. One that felt so uncomfortable.
When I understood that I couldn't stop the contact that was gonna happen when I was about to sleep,
I started calming down and accept it was gonna happen again.
It did, almost every night when I was sleeping on my right side.
Then I understood it was a contact, but I didn't know what kind or anything.
The more it happened the stranger it felt and one day I started enjoying it, because to me it was a real manifestation.
When you finally change your attitude about it (for me I didn't know what it was so I took that as an aggression).
Then that manifestation will grow even stronger each time.
I felt it once going through from my back to my chest and my back just curved automatically backward.
It feels as if god went straight through you.
It's very ecstatic and a blissful experience.
It's as if every night when you go to sleep you die and you are reborn the next day.

I may have been really lucky my practice seemed to activate it when it did, because in my life now I had the sort of experiences to know what to do with energy like that. It sounds really new-agey, but I think part of it may have to do with understanding male and female means of dealing with overflowing force; the female method- transferring it to the rest of the body- felt like the only way to deal with it safely. Thinking about it now, it could have been really painful actually if I stood against it, rather than welcoming it in. I have heard for some people these "spinal flows" can be very painful; for me it overflowed into the rest of my body and may have been experienced in the very best way possible.
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« Reply #16 on: Today at 06:14:37 »

My signature says so much...
More of us should experience this sensational wonderment.
Again words fail to do justice. grin
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« Reply #17 on: Today at 07:15:01 »

Stillwater, yes if I would have knew, I would have done the same thing from the beginning.
And yup Szaxx, no word to describe what's happening to us and what's ahead of us lol.
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« Reply #18 on: Today at 10:11:47 »

n one sense, I was passive in allowing it to take me where it wanted, and in giving it an exit path through my body's ports by flowing with it. Perhaps this was also inviting it in a dangerous way. When I first felt it flooding in, I was very open to it. It hit violently, but I think the intensity it reached may have been a factor of a submission to it. I embraced the experience, and intrinsically told it I would go where it wanted to take me. Looking back, I am not sure if things would have been different had I not been open to it, but I suspect this open-ness allowed the energy to reach peaks of terrifyingly out of control intensity that might not otherwise have happened.

I am thankful that there was very little in what I would call a conventional understanding of pain. The pain of it was partially my nervous system being stressed beyond what its capacity can safely cope with (being overloaded), and the over-straining of muscles beyond what they could contract to, while still trying to contract more, combined with a fear of the violence of it (but this fear was overshadowed by the ecstasy).

The next time this happens, I think that I will still be open to it, but I will implore it to take its time. I can see that going with it where it wants to go full speed can possibly be ruinous.

And flames is right. The Christian concept that even a shadow of the experience of God will consume a person in flame for its brilliance is an apt description of all of this. 

I was not aware of this. Do you remember where you heard this?

our priest studies Christian mysticism. It's too bad he's only with us for a couple months. I think there are more resource books on this sort of thing within the Chrisitan tradition. I will ask him today for the name of the series, to see if he can remember it.




The intensity increases as time goes on and you continue to do this inner work. "And flames is right. The Christian concept that even a shadow of the experience of God will consume a person in flame for its brilliance is an apt description of all of this.  "  I was not aware of this discription. It might be in the Catholic tradition. I think an important thing for people to understand is that this experience is not something that you need a church or guru or other religious leader for. This is a human experience. God however you understand him is for everyone. All people are meant for this not just gifted or special ones. The second thing is after the initial awakening, there is more to learn after. It is a milestone for sure but there are other milestones. You cannot reach all that can be reached living in the body and even when you leave and walk in spirit there is still more to go.
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« Reply #19 on: Today at 12:52:01 »

The flames I found to be the nearest physical attribute that most would understand.
Lets not forget the burning bush from the bible stories. It was one and the same to a 9 year old lol.
Afterthoughts generated this likeness mostly due to the purity of the helpers. Innocence is bliss has a personal meaning way outside of anything in the physical.
At the time I wasn't sure if being born in a chapel had anything to do with it but that remained an option until this recent revelation.
Niel Armstrong made one giant leap for mankind, I would like all mankind to take this experience for themselves. Perhaps like Tesla we are 'out of time' in the same respect. Trailblazers for future generations.

One must stand before one can walk, one must walk before one can run.
Early days...
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« Reply #20 on: Today at 19:45:40 »

Quote
I was not aware of this. Do you remember where you heard this?

I think a lot of it is people expanding the concept with their own visuals and imagery in the Christian tradition, although the root concept of the force of God burning anything less with its radiance is expressed several times in the Bible itself:

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And he said, You can not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. Exodus 33:20

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In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him were seraphim, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. Isaiah 6

In the Isaiah verse, I have heard it stated that the Hebrew and Aramaic is more suggestive- that they are covering their faces to shield themselves. The implication is that here the highest rank of angels in the Judeo-christian tradition know better than to look at God.

I am not myself a Christian, as that is not how I interface with the world. That said, there are fantastic things to be found in that tradition if you know where to look. I was immersed in Catholocism for several years as an outsider; I found that although I could not accept most of the basic premises ( I knew that going in), that there was much a person could learn from it if they were open to it, just as I had previously learned from the east. Watch a nun pray the rosary in some random Italian hill town and you will see what I mean.

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I think an important thing for people to understand is that this experience is not something that you need a church or guru or other religious leader for. This is a human experience. God however you understand him is for everyone. All people are meant for this not just gifted or special ones.

I whole-heartedly agree on each of these accounts. I think this experience may be a human birthright. It is over and above what many people ever get to experience, but I think the structure is there for any healthy person to experience it if they are led in the right directions. I don't feel like I am a special person for having experienced it (no more than everyone is special at least), but I count myself incredibly lucky.

I badly want to show others how to reach it too, but I know that I shouldn't until I have years of understanding it, before I even suggest how to engage with it. And even then... I want to be sure it is safe for people... I am not completely sure if it fully is at this point. Chasing it down Alice's cave seems like something I really have to take in measured amounts. I want to go far faster than I feel I should. Restraint seems like a virtue here unfortunately. If I am fully sane a couple years from now, I may consider putting the full concept into writing.
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« Reply #21 on: Today at 22:27:33 »



The next time this happens, I think that I will still be open to it, but I will implore it to take its time. I can see that going with it where it wants to go full speed can possibly be ruinous.

And flames is right. The Christian concept that even a shadow of the experience of God will consume a person in flame for its brilliance is an apt description of all of this. 






A couple of things I know of pertaining to the 'flame' concept -  There is a poem by St. John of the Cross called 'The Living Flame of Love.'  John knew St. Teresa, interestingly enough.  Some phrases from the poem  are- Oh living flame of love that tenderly wounds my soul in it's deepest center.  - Oh lamps of fire -Oh delightful wound - In killing, you changed death to life.

 From the Bible, Heb. 12:29  Therefore, since we receive a Kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire.

About the possibility of this being ruinous, I can see that, and I think how one approaches it makes all the difference.  In my case, I didn't achieve it through meditation or through any specific practice. In fact I didn't know anything about meditation.  I spent time in prayer often, and I had my daily quiet times -if I was meditating, I certainly didn't know it.  I just had an unquenchable desire to know God.  So in this way, I didn't open any channel through my own doing, but rather made myself available for God/Source to decide when it was 'my time' and he directed the whole thing.  My first experience happened when I was just walking around the house doing laundry -so definitely not my doing! lol  The second time I asked God a question, and got an immediate answer (which was much more than I bargained for)  The third time (and most powerful of the three)  I had reached a point in my life where I realized I was still living a primarily selfish lifestyle.  In prayer, I gave over that selfish part of me, and told God that I wanted to stop living for myself and live to serve others.  It was an emotional and inspiring spiritual time for me.  After I had finished that prayer, I got up and just began business as usual again, and I distinctly heard a voice inside my head that said -Go lie down on your bed.  I have a gift for you.  I did, and that's when it happened.  The ecstasy lasted several minutes. My body could not have held anything more.  I was loved so powerfully and tenderly at the same time.  No words can describe the intimate bliss.

So I think that if one desires to know God, and gives them self humbly to service, and waits... They will get an experience that is a perfect fit for them and will not be ruinous.  God will make sure of that. He loves his children and will not let them be destroyed.  If a wound is inflicted, it will be for a reason and will not be more than you can bear.  In my experiences, the first two prepared me to be able to handle the third.  It was no accident that it happened that way.

I'm not saying that one shouldn't open themselves directly through the meditation technique, I don't really know about that -I don't even know what it is!  But the above is a very safe path to the experience, I feel.  Everyone should experience this... just be sure to make yourself spiritually ready.
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