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Author Topic: David Thompson and Victor Zammit  (Read 3203 times)
Stillwater
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« on: July 14, 2006, 20:58:17 »

First off, I would like to thank Adrian for his work in building his new site, "The Direct Voice" for us, as it is a valuable resource for information relating to voice manifestation mediumship and other arts in general, and running a healthy and balanced forum here at the astralpulse where topics can be discussed in a healthy and objective fashion.

Furthermore, I would simply like to say that my statements and inqueries are not meant to be of any offense at all to the individuals in question, as on the contrary, I respect very highly the work Victor Zammit and David Thompson, and our admin Adrian, and think that they do respectable work in educating others about paranormal events. I am not trying to push any viewpoint, although I am general believer in many metaphysical concepts.

That said, my main issue is this:

On Adrian's new site, which focuses on the work of Mr Leslie Flint and David Thompson, the former being a fairly well respected medium, and the latter aparently an up and coming medium, there are some features which describe a seance involving Mr Thompson perfomring his direct voice mediumship, channeling Louis Armstrong, and Sir Arthur Connan Doyle, among others.

Now I think these precedings are of great value, for if they are what they appear to be, they can be of use in educating a grand number of people in the nature of the universe beyond the physical plane (ie.: the afterlife, from the direction the seance approaches it).

A chief concern, however, in making such claims, and distributing information, is offering validation, for otherwise any number of hateful and pernicious hoaxes can be inflicted on those poor individuals too ignorant to question appearances, or reaching out for something to believe in.

Mr Vicktor Zammit, whose work and credentials I respect, and whom I do not acuse of conspirancy, has graciously seen to watch over the seances and offer his knowledge in preventing fraud, and I think he probably covered the most common bases.

Now I of course am in no way involved, unlike those described, but I fear Mr. Zammit may perhaps be premature in proclaiming that David Thompson procedes without fraud.

I will admit that I myself have been convinced of countless hoaxes in earlier years, and may perhaps even still believe claims which are in fact  hoaxes; the best way to convince inquiring people of ficitious claims is to offer evidence and testimonials by apparently credible authorities.

Mr. Zammit would be the authority in question here; please do not think that I am suggesting Zammit knowingly passed on false information, as he appears to have very pure interest and the most well-developed intentions around; what I am saying is rather that the seal of approval by an authority like Zammit, even honestly given, is just the thing that regularly convinces intelligent people of fraudulent claims.

On first investigation, Zammit's methods appear very circumspect: the medium (Mr Thompson) was securely tied down with twist-clamps, and his person was supposedly inspected for cheating devices.

Several very difficult to explain events took place: what are purported to be the voices of spirits spoke through the medium, even materializng, and the medium's cardigan was actually reversed so he was wearing it backwards.

The problem, however, is mainly that the whole affair of a seance must happen in the dark. I am saddened to say that the vast majority of mediums (not necessarily all, as I cannot make such a bold claim, and will not be so arrogant) who worked in the dark were mere parlour magicians, employing cheap tricks. In cases when the medium was bound, they usually escaped by loosening the chair arms, and perfoming all manner of hokery in the dark, wiggling tables, and moving trumpets. In other cases, they had people dressed entirely in black come by and do these things for them.

I am not at all saying that the fact the seance occured in the dark invalidates it all, but rather that it hurts the case, as the proper precautions for getting around the unlit setting, and preventing fraud do not at all seem to have taken place, and for this reason, I do not think Mr. Zammit can make the claim he does at this time, namely that he is utterly certain that materializations and voice manifestations occurred, unless there is information that I am not aware of that would explain otherwise.

Additional precautions that I would have taken would have been to have mutiple nightvision infra-red cameras stationed at the medium, to observe his actions, and the activities he claims the "ectoplasm" engages in. This would also rule out the possibility of accomplices hoking around in the dark somehow. One could also line the ground with material that would make a sound if stepped on, so everyone could be confirmed to have remained seated. Audio technology also exists that allows one to determine the direction sound propogates from, and so this could be employed from multiple angles to determine the point at which the voices were emitted from. It would be fairly convincing for Mr. Thompson if the voices could be shown to emit from a space outside his body, showing that electronic equipment was not used.

The fact that his cardigan is reversed strikes me as a little goofy, as there are conceivable ways that this could easily be done, namely if the arms of the chair were not secure, and also for the fact that it seemed entirely hokey and unneccessary, for if what he claims is true, why would it be necessary to reverse his jacket? On the otherhand, I am utterly dumbfounded as to how the reversal could have taken place if his arms were secured- the physical action of it happening with his limbs tied is impossible for me to picture, unless the very seams were ripped and restitched by some spirit mechanism, as his body and the chair would have formed a loop which it would be impossible to remove the jacket from. This part of the account, being so hard for me to digest, unfortunately adds a suspicion of fraud for me.

Now this is the purpose of my topic:

I would earnestly like it if Adrian or someone deeply involved, or even someone more informed on the matter than myself could please graciously answer my statements. If Adrian or others could secure statements or contact with either Mr. Zammit or Mr. Thompson, that would be ideal, but I do not hope for so much.

I am chiefly concerned with the validation; if any means not discussed were actually used which more coherently prove the truth of the mediumship, or if there are plans in the future for more intensive tests, I would be very glad to hear it. Are there any infra-red tests? I think evidence like that is quite essential, given the fact that the procedings take place in the dark.

AGAIN, I MEAN ABSOLUTELY NO OFFENSE TO ADRIAN OR ANY OF THOSE IN QUESTION, AS I VERY MUCH RESPECT ALL INVOLVED.

I am simply looking for more information. If Mr Thompson could agree to undergo more rigorous testing in the future, I would be very grateful, but this is his elective; but if his claims are true, then we cannot afford to let doubt ruin so great a gift to mankind. I would not characterise myself as a hardcore skeptic, but rather as a person who likes to investigate seemingly incredible claims for validation. I have a firm belief in metaphysics and the afterlife, so I do not at all claim that Mr. Thompson's claims are sensational, but only that in order for them to be of value, they must be backed up.

Thank you very much, and I look forward to hearing from Adrian, any moderators in touch with Adrian, any person linked to the events in Sydney, or anyone at all with comments of information for this case.
Thanks  and peace to all!
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Adrian
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« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2006, 22:25:30 »

Hello Stillwater,

Thank you for your message.

I totally agree with you and I know that Victor Zammit, who is a friend of mine and I communicate with also totally agrees with you.

In fact the Spirit communicators themselves also totally agree with you. Louise Armstrong actually requested that his voice in the seance be matched against his recorded voice from when he was physically alive. A spectrum analyzer for voice prints could do this conclusively.

However, that said, we have to proceed with an open mind. Spirit communicators cannot materialize against negative energy.

I can tell you that Victor, who as you know was a highly respected international lawyer, now retired, will only go by the evidence that can be proven, not circumstancial. David Thompson knows that and would not risk being exposed by Victor I assure you.

Victor is 100% certain that these materialisations and voices are real. The only unproven aspect is proof of identity of the Spirits. The Spirit claiming to be Arthur Conan Doyle actually shook his hand which visibly went up and down. No physical person could have got away with that. Keep in mind this is a small room, with nothing in it except furniture, and a chair against the door so it cannot be opened. There is no way anyone could enter that room undetected.

And what would be the point of David Thompson hoaxing it? He has been holding these seances for years in private, well out of the public eye, with nothing to gain by doing so except the intrinsic value.

Also, listening to these communicators it is clear to me they are genuine; only the identity to be verified.

The Spirits also say that a top priority is to create light in the seance room, they mean Astral light so they can be seen and filmed; and they themselves say there will be no doubt then.

My own view is that this is very much an evolving situation; and great things will beheard, and seem in the future.

Again, you are perfectly justified in raising these questions.

Best regards,

Adrian.
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« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2006, 22:25:30 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Stillwater
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« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2006, 06:12:09 »

Well, I would like to thank you, Adrian, for response in good faith.

Quote
However, that said, we have to proceed with an open mind. Spirit communicators cannot materialize against negative energy.

I understand this and respect the condition entirely, as it makes perfect sense. The thought that living people might privy to something so special as to hear Louis Armstrong sing "Hello Dolly" from another plane, does nothing less than bring me to tears, but I am sad to say that I must be wary of even the greatest gifts, as there is unfortunately so much darkness and deceit in the world, that we must always search for the truth. If I could say, as others closer to the events seem to believe, that there is no possibility of fraud, then I would remove any reservations at all. I fully accept that this is possibly something momentous for mankind, and never intended any ill will, but rather give my thanks.

Quote
And what would be the point of David Thompson hoaxing it? He has been holding these seances for years in private, well out of the public eye, with nothing to gain by doing so except the intrinsic value.

I am not sure, he seems like a delightful fellow. Others before him have fakes seances in private (not that he is), mainly in the mid-1800s, and to what end I have no idea. I cannot think of a motive, but not every ill act has one, unfortunately.

Quote
Also, listening to these communicators it is clear to me they are genuine; only the identity to be verified.

I agree, there is something very inately charming about the voices' relfections of the earth predecessors; it would take sophisticated voice equipment or a whole slew of actors (both expensive) to fake them- this is one factor that seems to add credibility.

Quote
The Spirits also say that a top priority is to create light in the seance room, they mean Astral light so they can be seen and filmed; and they themselves say there will be no doubt then.

This idea pleases me immensely. With light in the room, it would be pretty hard for a medium to pull anything, or actors to play parts unknown. I know one could say that they could still merely animate the spirits into the film, but if such an authority like Zammit is there, who, for all his inborn inclinations and biases (as I, or anyone would have), still believes that this is genuine, then I suppose that may be my limit too. To see such a film sounds delightful, and I am very pleased that liasons on the other side put so much effort into their own validation- I very much hope that they may be successful.

I would like to thank you again, Adrian, for adequetely addressing my statements, and the good work you do for us here at the astral pulse, and your efforts in building your new site. smiley smiley smiley

I think making this topic cost me a karma point by someone, lol......

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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2006, 12:36:38 »

Good posting Stillwater. I keep thinking if only there was a video recording of these events ( Findlay materialization) with in tandem with the audio recording then we could have all the evidence we need. Is there a specific reason why a video recording would not be considered?
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Stillwater
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« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2006, 22:28:19 »

Quote
Good posting Stillwater. I keep thinking if only there was a video recording of these events ( Findlay materialization) with in tandem with the audio recording then we could have all the evidence we need. Is there a specific reason why a video recording would not be considered?

Thank you  wink

The reason I have heard posited, which came up in the famous "Scole experiments" (which are, by the way, very convincing), is simply that video camera's "interfere" in some way shape or form with the seance. Now this sounds very weird, suspiciously like an excuse to prevent the exposure of fraudulent techniques, but I like to give the seance mediums the benefit of the doubt, in that perhaps there truly are reasons ( I don't remember, but I think cameras may actualy have been used briefly in the scole experiments).

But if a video recording of a Thompson Seance were released, it would be of the greatest value in validating the happenings.

What I am most interested in at this time, and you can call this odd (and I would agree, lol), is what the medium's body does during this time. I can accept vocies, materializations, and even objects being moved around the room, as these things can easily be reconciled with my beliefs, but of all things, as I posted above, the fact that Mr. Thompson's cardigan was reversed, and while he was wearing it with his wirsts bound by tie clamps to the chair, strikes me as utterly unexplainable!!!

I CAN ACCEPT THE VOICES AND INCARNATE ENTIES, BUT A SILLY JACKET IS BEYOND MY UNDERSTANDING!!!

My reasoning is this:

If Mr. Thompson was secured with is wrists attached to the chair with the clamp ties, than his body formed a closed loop with the chair- one could draw an imaginary circle that went through one arm, then the arm of the chair, the back of the chair, the other arm of the chair, his other arm, his back, and finally back to the first arm.

Now as an architect, I like to think geometrically, so I abstractly visualize a person wearing  a jacket in bound in a chair like Mr. Thompson as a four-linked chain connected in a circle, which obviously cannot be broken unless one of the links is altered.

Now this is very abstact, and some might not immediately see what I mean, so I will elaborate. We can all see how his body and the chair form a closed loop; now each of the sleaves of the jacket form a second and third closed loop- each of these loops is bound around the first loop at his arms, and the two loops of his sleeves are also linked themselves by his jacket back.

Now this is the thing- if the Medium remained physically bound, and the jacket was in no way altered, by the laws of euler geometry- it is physically IMPOSSIBLE for his jacket to be removed so it could be reversed, as he cannot phsyically remove either sleave!

Now given this, there are a few possibilities I see for how the jacket could have been removed (as it must have been to be reversed):

1. Mr. Thompson was in fact unbound, by spirit forces or otherwise, to remove his jacket

2. Some Force, spirit or otherwise, physically altered his jacket by undoing the seams, and resealing them (hard to imagine, but possible I guess)

3. Some force altered the normal physics of the jacket, allowing it either to teleport or cease to be solid (briefly enter another state of existence, like the astral, the possibility of physical matter being able to do so not yet proven), so it could pass though his body, and reverse itself, resolidifying

Now one can see how the cardigan issue makes me wary. I would like to completely embrace this with full faith, but minor issues like this force me, against my will I might add, to reserve my inner judgement.

I wish it were not so, but something inside me keeps screaming, "THE JACKET, THE JACKET". I would that the silly thing never existed, as I could all the more easily digest it. But look at the possibilities- 2 and 3 seem unlikely (but not impossible, I guess), but 1 is very peculiar, as if he was ever unbound, there is some hint of fraud.... but again, nothing conclusive can be drawn from this episode.

I ask the forgiveness of all those I upset with my ranting, chiefly Adrian, for I do not want to give others the impression by my musings that I am in opposition to either Mr. Thompson or Mr. Zammit; on the contrary, I am VERY MUCH for both of these gentlemen, and I think they are doing the best of work- it is simply that my perspective of the events (much removed from their happenings) is incomplete, and a few things about the seance strike me as odd probably because of my lack of knowledge.

As Doch pointed out, if we could ever be given a filming of these happenings aided by the "astral light", then I think many of the odd mechanics of the situation I am being tripped up on will be explained, like how his darn Jacket removes itself.

I admit that I could even accept a more complete account, given by a person like Zammit, as I do not doubt his honesty, of exactly how some of these phenomenon are preceding, if they succeed in the "astral light" technique.

I thank you all for your patience with me, again, chiefly Adrian, and look forward to alternative explanations or other points anyone can add to this!

This really is an issue of the greatest importance, in least in my view.

My peace to all  wink
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« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2006, 22:28:19 »



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Stillwater
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« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2006, 17:35:13 »

Hello again all, I am making this new post to organize my thoughts for Mr. Vicktor Zammit, whom I will contact via his Email.

This post is meant as a list of curious issues regarding the recent Sydney Seance, which in my opinion do not at all invalidate the seance, but bring up problems with proclaiming with 100% certainty
(a very difficult thing to do, as human understanding is finite) that every event in the seance proceded without any incidence of fraud.

Now again, I am a firm believer in metaphysics and the afterlife, and I believe there have been numerous genuine mediums (Mr. Flint seems a good candidate, and one Adrian draws a connection to with Mr. Thompson), and I am not at all trying to make a point by raising objections with Mr. Thompson- my real goal is to aid his validation; I list these points as obstacles to that goal. As your stated interest, as mine is (despite my removal from the events), is trying to empirically test and/or back up Mr. Thompson's claims, then I think objections like these are an important matter.

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(note: several points refer to statements posted earlier in this thread, and in order to fully understand the nature of each point in question, it is necessary to refer back to those posts.)

1. The lack of light in the room at this time makes the task of validation much more difficult. It has been said that the spirits wish to introduce light, and this makes me glad, but until that time, there are issues raised:

1a: As human understanding is finite, and human ability for finding ways of fooling others is sometimes extensive, it seems that night-vision cameras at multiple angles must be used to track the activities of all individuals in the room, as well as ectoplasmic events.

1b: As further precaution, it might be helpful to secure all sitters down as well, so that only one individual is unbound, whose location could also be verified by others holding his/her hands.

1c: Additionally, the ground could be lined with noise- generating material to further ensure all remain seated, and support the night-vision films.

2: There is a large issue which I bring up regarding the physics of the Cardigan reversal, which I outline in an earlier post.

here it is for convience:

Quote
If Mr. Thompson was secured with is wrists attached to the chair with the clamp ties, than his body formed a closed loop with the chair- one could draw an imaginary circle that went through one arm, then the arm of the chair, the back of the chair, the other arm of the chair, his other arm, his back, and finally back to the first arm.

Now as an architect, I like to think geometrically, so I abstractly visualize a person wearing  a jacket in bound in a chair like Mr. Thompson as a four-linked chain connected in a circle, which obviously cannot be broken unless one of the links is altered.

Now this is very abstact, and some might not immediately see what I mean, so I will elaborate. We can all see how his body and the chair form a closed loop; now each of the sleaves of the jacket form a second and third closed loop- each of these loops is bound around the first loop at his arms, and the two loops of his sleeves are also linked themselves by his jacket back.

Now this is the thing- if the Medium remained physically bound, and the jacket was in no way altered, by the laws of euler geometry- it is physically IMPOSSIBLE for his jacket to be removed so it could be reversed, as he cannot phsyically remove either sleave!

Now given this, there are a few possibilities I see for how the jacket could have been removed (as it must have been to be reversed):

1. Mr. Thompson was in fact unbound, by spirit forces or otherwise, to remove his jacket

2. Some Force, spirit or otherwise, physically altered his jacket by undoing the seams, and resealing them (hard to imagine, but possible I guess)

3. Some force altered the normal physics of the jacket, allowing it either to teleport or cease to be solid (briefly enter another state of existence, like the astral, the possibility of physical matter being able to do so not yet proven), so it could pass though his body, and reverse itself, resolidifying

3:You (Victor) have said you have used voice software to analyze wave patterns: this is a good first step, but it would seem necessary to me that a control is introduced: having several people with different vocies try to duplicate the voices and their pitches/intonations, and then comparing those controls to the originals; this will allow possible index of judging what significance the similarities of the voices to their living owners has, and how significant it is that 7 individual patterns can be recognized.

4: More detailed documentation of the ectoplasm and its workings in this particular case seem necessary, as it is described as the mechanism allowing for said mediumship.

5: It is curious to me that so many of the mentioned spirits being channeled were celebrity figures.

5a: If random chance was a factor, most of the etherians should have been unknowns, but perhaps they chose this lineup as a tool for validation?

5b: I think it is odd how many of the etherians, despite being from different times, use quite contemporary language ( I suppose this could be due to conversing with newly dead or observing the living, but it seems like the dead would preserve more of their personal mannerisms.)

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Now, I admit that I was not there, so that is a factor in my objections, but you must also realize that very few of us were there, so it is the burden of those present to prove the validity of the seance if that is their aim. I also admit that my understanding of the paranormal is limited (despite having studied numerous facets such as OBE, NDE, mediums, ITC, among dozens of others) and taken from my own perspective, but I do not believe that this should be a factor, as the objections should be addressed regardless of the person raising them.

I also admit that future developments may make many of these objections redundant (and I hope this is the case), giving us irrefutable proof (as possible as this is) that these seances are genuine.

That said, I graciously await Mr. Zammit's response and possible rebuttal.

Any information from anyone regarding future seances, future tests, or new information not yet released on this issue is strongly desired, and in some respects crucial.

I do not need to remind anyone that this is one of the most well- formated and publicized instances of medium-work to date, and I think this series of developments may be of great value in further proving many paranormal events and concepts.

My Thanks to Adrian, David Thompson, Victor Zammit, and anyone who wishes to involve themself in this discussion.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2006, 17:38:19 by Stillwater » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2006, 17:43:20 »

No offense Stillwater, but can you put all this in a nutshell for me??  What is your ultimate point? and please...without the long part. Smiley

What puts me off to begin with is, right away you are apologizing for what you are saying and then you go on to say it with long explanations.  I just want the short version, without the apologies or excuses.

Thanks! 
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Stillwater
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« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2006, 18:39:27 »

Quote
No offense Stillwater, but can you put all this in a nutshell for me??  What is your ultimate point? and please...without the long part.

What puts me off to begin with is, right away you are apologizing for what you are saying and then you go on to say it with long explanations.  I just want the short version, without the apologies or excuses.

Thanks! 


No offense taken  wink

You are right, it is all very long (which likely puts many off), but that is because it is a complicated issue for me. I feel I need to apologize so often to prevent mis-understandings and upsetting others, as is clear in how much karma this topic has sapped from me, lol.

I try to put the more important stuff in big type or bold, but I don't mind a summary:

This is an important issue, because there are very few mediums who have been publicly tested; this is an opportunity to stringently test a promising medium. If what he and others claim is true, he may be a valuable resource in "spreading truth" about our universe. The thing that remains to be done, for me at least, is the test part. Since he has offered himself to be empirically tested, I think the avenue should be persued. What I list are obstacles to proving the medium's validity, be they insufficient precautions agaisnt fraud, or insufficient documentation. I raise these objections in the hope that others (in the case of the last bit, Mr. Zammit, as I have emailed him to) may answer them, and/or offer solutions and better tests for David Thompson. I understand that much in this world has to be taken on faith, but we all know how people can be burned by hoaxes and dogmas as well, so that is sometimes a dangerous practice. My aim is to help obtain and distribute empirical evidence in this case, so it does not have to be taken on faith alone, as if the source of the information cannot be determined, then the infomation given cannot immediately be accepted as valid.

I want to help determine the source of the voices, helping to validate them for myself and others, if they turn out to be genuine (as I believe), or protect others from an elaborate hoax, if the unhappy truth is that fraud was somehow introduced.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2006, 18:41:14 by Stillwater » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2006, 19:25:20 »

Fair enough.  Can we perhaps let it rest for awhile now?  No point in it becoming badgering.  You have made your point several times...ya know? 

Thanks.  smiley
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« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2006, 21:13:25 »

Quote
Fair enough.  Can we perhaps let it rest for awhile now?  No point in it becoming badgering.  You have made your point several times...ya know? 

Thanks. 


Indeed, perhaps this is so. This is more an issue that will be explored in the future- it will suit to itself, whatever the result.
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« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2006, 00:13:37 »

I appreciate you understanding.  Boing!  Look what you got.. grin
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« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2006, 00:32:32 »

 cool Counter-boing  cool
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