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Author Topic: Do you want fries with that Belief Box ?  (Read 3437 times)
James S
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« on: April 08, 2004, 03:10:39 »

Tayesin,

This is VERY good!!
So true of most, if not all of us.

A little while ago I realised, though I'd knocked the lid off my belief box, I was still siting inside it's four walls.
I took the scary step of climbing out of that box and throwing it away. Felt like I was completely naked, almost empty. What did I do though? Found another box to climb into. Admittedly a much bigger and more comfortable one, but still something with a lid on it!

I think every now and then we need to climb out of our boxes and stand naked, exposed to the unknown. After a while our box gets full up and we stop learning.

James.
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ralphm
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« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2004, 03:23:09 »

Beliefs suck, direct experience is what counts.
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« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2004, 03:23:09 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

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James S
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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2004, 05:52:54 »

quote:
Originally posted by ralphm

Beliefs suck, direct experience is what counts.


Yes, but we all have beliefs of one kind or another.
Though beliefs built upon direct experiences are the ones that serve us best.
[Smiley]
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Fat_Turkey
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« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2004, 06:35:22 »

In the words of Mohammad, it is very important to believe in something. If we don't believe in anything, then we are nothing. We always believe in something, whether it be an emotion, a state of mind, an afterlife, or a mix.

The problem I see is when people get their belief boxes by reading philosophies, thinking "Wow! That's cool! Maybe I'll put that on my MSN profile and make my life be dictated by it!!" when all they're really doing is using quotes that just about anybody can use, because being different is somehow wrong.

For example..."If you're not living on the edge you're taking up too much room." That quote makes no sense. If there was nothing but the edge, ie everybody who "takes up too much room" was eliminated, "the edge" would no longer be defined. Picking up such a quote without analyzing it are the sorts of things most people in society today are doing. Worst of all they dictate their lives by these philosophies. Sure, philosophy has put to words things I could not put to words, and have thus helped me to grow and to learn, and I do use them as rules, but I don't live my life by them.. That's just silly.

What was I talking about? Oh yeah. Great post.

Later
~FT
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No amount of rigorous training, sitting and doing nothing, and clearing one's mind can help a man who hasn't overcome his doubts.
Tayesin
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« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2004, 22:59:50 »


Hi All,
Thanks for the replies.  I absolutely agree that there is no substitute for experience.  It's how we modify and move on through our little Boxes. My teacher taught me to always go as if naked, meaning to have no preconceieved ideas and beliefs on what you can or can't experience.  And eventually my opinions where formed by doing just that and getting out there to experience it for myself.  Which explains the different ideas I put forward here a lot, LOL.  Yet it doesn't make me to attach to any belief about what i have experienced as each new experience can force me to reassess my opinions on any thing.  

Love Always. [Smiley]
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« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2004, 22:59:50 »



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mazdaaf
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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2004, 23:14:08 »

wow that was an awesome post..i never thought about beliefs that way! (with the boxes). i wonder though, is it really possible to leave the box because there are always some limits. As people said your going to keep learning and gaining new beliefs..

i agree though..maybe if people stopped arguing about which box is right then there wouldnt be as many wars and stuff...
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"In a timeless world,
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« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2004, 00:21:57 »

This is easy,
there is only one truth and that is through the lord jesus christ, everything else is heresy and must be exterminated.

hehe only joking...

The above line was quoted to me in the past and is a good example of a fairly tight fitting 'belief box', one in which this guy is hermetically sealed within and reinforced with steel panels before being encased in lead and dropped off the edge of a ship in the middle of the Pacific ocean!

I wonder if he's still there?

Regards,
Douglas



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Euphoric Sunrise
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« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2004, 00:24:54 »

Excellent post, Tayesin! Nice, clear analogy. I've realised the same thing, but haven't been able to put it into words as well as your post.

For some reason i have the image of a chinese noodle box in my head. You know, the ones you get when you get chinese take-out.
What i've begun to do is not just discard boxes completely, but search through other people's boxes, finding out what sort of noodles they have and maybe cooking up similar noodles so i can enjoy them if i want to. From there i can learn about and get inspiration from the noodles i have gathered and make up my own recipies. Of course, i can also invent my won recipies without borrowing at all.
Where do i keep them? On my head i guess [Tongue]

So, in english - it's all very well to break out of the box scheme, but don't think you can't examine the contents of the boxes and build on what you like. If there's an idea that rings true inside of you, take it, mould it, make it your own, and grow with it. Whether it be something you have learned from other ideas, or something you have thought up all by yourself.
I'm not sure it's that easy for humans to have no beliefs though, like Fat Turkey pointed out. Beliefs are important for shaping opinions and other beliefs. As, as already been pointed out though, it doesn't mean you can't change your beliefs or even discard them. That's not so easy if they at the bottom of the box though, so keep them on your head! Or just somewhere that isn't restricted.

PS - sorry for that terrible noodle analogy, it's the best i could do [Cheesy]

Now i have a craving for noodles! [}:)]
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ralphm
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« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2004, 02:42:29 »

The more i THINK ABOUT IT THE MORE i REALIZE WE PROCESS OUR experiences through our beliefs, at least to some extent if we don't limit our experiences by our beliefs. I had to research this quote, I thought it was by Huxley but I found out otherwise.

QUOTATION:   If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is,infinite.
ATTRIBUTION:   William Blake (1757–1827), British poet, painter, engraver. The Marriage of Heaven and Hell, plate 14, “A Memorable Fancy,” (c. 1793), repr. In Complete Writings, ed. Geoffrey Keynes (1957).

“The Doors of Perception” was the title of Aldous Huxley’s essay on his experience with mescaline (1954); the 1960s rock group The Doors also reputedly took their name from Blake’s aphorism. Blake continued, “For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro’ narrow chinks of his cavern.”
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In the world in general and in this nation
May not even the names disease, famine, war, and suffering be heard.
May virtuous qualities, merit, and prosperity greatly increase
And may continuous good fortune and subline well-being perfectly arise.
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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2004, 21:16:51 »

I've had that naked feeling, twice actually. First time was when I first got into telekinesis in 6th grade, I forget the exact reason why I stopped doing it, I think something like it was just too creepy for me. Then in 9th grade I started getting into it again, and after a while, I got into Influence, and after that a lot of things started to happen that seemed to be controlled by fate. And for a while, I had no clue what was going on. I could be dreaming continuously for all I knew. But then it hit me, even if it was a dream, its not like they're anything I can do about it no matter how weird it is, so I might as well be along for the ride! My box has rubber sides and a retractable awning as a ceiling: I'm always expanding, revising, reviewing, and trying to figure out one more piece of the puzzle.
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Tayesin
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« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2004, 10:07:05 »

Hi All,
LOL at the Rubber Box.  I want one.

Quote by Ralphm.
"The more i THINK ABOUT IT THE MORE i REALIZE WE PROCESS OUR experiences through our beliefs, at least to some extent if we don't limit our experiences by our beliefs."

Yes we do.  In my experience there is only ONE thing that can prevent us from experiencing anything we choose, and that is exactly, what we believe about it !

So it makes the not-doing of attaching to belief systems all the more necessary.

quote by Mazdaaf.
"i wonder though, is it really possible to leave the box because there are always some limits. As people said your going to keep learning and gaining new beliefs.."

"there are always limits" is in a box.  That box is shared with other things like, you are just a little human soul, you can't be a Powerful Spirit coz you are in school on Earth, and many others.

Yes we will keep learning, and more importantly we will keep remembering.  In which case we have the choice to turn our experience into a belief system,  and/or add it to the box we have now, or, we can take the experience as valid experience, form no expectations on how it is beyond that and refer to it as previous experience and not so much as knowledge gained.  That way we can remain flexible and not attach to another Box.

Love Always.[Smiley]
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FreeFaller
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« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2004, 21:39:09 »

well its sort of hard to think of beliefs as a box. i think of them more as doors, or pathways. but i sort of understand. the box idea.
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beavis
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« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2004, 03:47:53 »

You cant avoid having beliefs, even if you only think theres a small chance they're true. I believe if I flip a coin, it will land heads, tails, or on its side. I believe that if I did not believe this, I would be insane. I believe insanity has a meaning instead of meaning nothing. I believe I am alive. Can you really avoid this stuff?
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Fat_Turkey
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« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2004, 07:50:53 »

Well the simple fact that you think that you're real is a belief. The basis of reality itself is belief. You cannot simply avoid them. But following them in a relentless, doctrined way is not the answer either. I believe that collecting many viewpoints, moulding them (as already pointed out) to fit your own views, and so on and so forth, is the best option for growth. And even though the belief boxes formed through this entire process is different for each and every one of us, we grow and develop in a similar way, finally leading us to our goals of understanding one another and ourselves.

~FT
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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No amount of rigorous training, sitting and doing nothing, and clearing one's mind can help a man who hasn't overcome his doubts.
Tayesin
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« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2004, 23:26:00 »

quote:
Originally posted by beavis

You cant avoid having beliefs, even if you only think theres a small chance they're true. I believe if I flip a coin, it will land heads, tails, or on its side. I believe that if I did not believe this, I would be insane. I believe insanity has a meaning instead of meaning nothing. I believe I am alive. Can you really avoid this stuff?



Hiya Beavis,
If you thought there was only a small chance that your belief was true then you would most likely trade it in on one that more reflects your outlook ?

I know if I flip a coin it will land in one of those ways, so I do not need to believe it to be so. I could also hypothesize that it may fall down a drain, get run over by a bus and become wedged in a tyre etc.

The difference being this..... I have knowledge based on experience.  If I do not allow this experiential knowings to form a basis for a belief or modification to already existing beliefs then I have achieved my desired outcome of having no belief about it.  Therefore I can only rely on the demonstratable evidence as it happens, I can extrapolate many hypothesis' about variations to the observed experiences and other such sorts of mental gymnastics.  What I do not do is allow the results from my experiences to become staid as Beliefs, because any number of factors could and possibly would force me to alter that belief as more experience is gained.

So, you know what you know, and don't adhere to belief systems so that you can remain malleable and more able to experience what is outside the various belief boxes that are available.

Once you attach yourself to certain beliefs or entire systems of such, you automatically close a box in around you.  One that will not allow you to experience anything outside of the belief/concept boundaries.  So I would suppose that remaining open minded without adherence to any belief system will provide wider experience options.  

I do not believe this to be so...I have experienced it as so. LOL

Love Always. [Smiley]
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beavis
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« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2004, 23:38:35 »

Tayesin: If you thought there was only a small chance that your belief was true then you would most likely trade it in on one that more reflects your outlook ?

I can have many partial-beliefs if all their chances dont sum to more than 100%. It is less correct to set all the others chances to 0% and the highest to 100%, and worse, it only changes as a result of extremely big events, so I dont do that. If my beliefs about something sum too close to 100%, that is usually wrong. I must account for things I dont know.

I know if I flip a coin it will land in one of those ways, so I do not need to believe it to be so. I could also hypothesize that it may fall down a drain, get run over by a bus and become wedged in a tyre etc.

Or it could disappear into the air before it hits the ground. Its rare, but I've seen things change like that, but not as fast.

So, you know what you know, and don't adhere to belief systems so that you can remain malleable and more able to experience what is outside the various belief boxes that are available.

Right (99%). Beliefs not based on somebody's experience are usually wrong. Beliefs that cant change are usually wrong because they probably stayed as they were when first created and ignored contradicting information.

I do not believe this to be so...I have experienced it as so. LOL

You believe you experienced that.
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Tayesin
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« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2004, 02:47:21 »


Hi All,
Over the years I began to wonder if every belief system one could choose, was a box of beliefs.  If they were, then they must have a boundary where the beliefs end.

Look at it historically, every culture had it's own set of beliefs to do with our spiritual nature.  Now of course, we can choose from any of those belief systems, we can check them out and decide which one comes closest to what we think.  Then TA-DA !, you got yourself a Belief System in a Box, just like a new stereo unit.  And you get to have a good experience with it, well, at least until you get to the boundary.(read stereo warranty runs out)

Eventually I came to the conclusion that this was an observable phenomena.  I saw it in everyone, everyday.  People attached to various belief systems, while some new new-age concepts began to form in order to give even more choices.  Still, those new concepts were also boxes.  Some concepts were even formed from blending pieces from various belief boxes to form a new one.

I got a little down about it then.  It seemed odd that almost everyone wanted to have a box of their own, if that box comfortably fitted with some other people's boxes.  Not many people were breaking out of the traditional and newly-contemporary, moulds.

What was worst, people were arguing over which box was the correct one !  As if any one box of beliefs could be the right one.  We know we do this, we even know inside that we know better, but it doesn't stop many people...... "Gimme that box of beliefs on East meets West spiritual foundations please".  [Tongue]

Through my own experiences over more than 20 years, conducted without expectations and pre-formed beliefs about what I should and should not believe, I came to an understanding that this Box business was very human, even very human soul-ish (still wearing a blindfold) and that the time had come to help end it's reign here.

I realized that all of the old belief systems and most of the new-ish ones had no place of reference for where we, as aware incarnate beings, are heading.  

In short, the are mostly out of date now.  Sure, some pieces of each system is valid, we know each has a part of the whole GEM inside it.  So maybe we need to find the GEMS that work and completely discard all the rest.  WOW, no belief systems, that could be very intense to have to stand 'as if naked'in the light or our Suol's nature.

It would be confronting to most people, not at all comfortable, LOL.  But in order to grow beyond out belief system's boundaries we will need to discard the Box and all, so we can start fresh on being and experiencing what "just IS" for each of our souls.  And maybe we will find that each little just what IS could be the same for us all at the same awareness 'levels'.

I suppose this is more about trying to get people to challenge what and why they believe what they do.  To ask them to try stepping out of the Box and just experience for yourself without forming beliefs about it.  After all, who really knows ?  

For all we do know, 'The Matrix' may have been an insight into our human-life reality.  In some ways it is.  Only you have the choice to change that.

So that's my rant for today, hope it stirs up some mould releasing agent, LOL.

Love Always. [Smiley]
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