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Author Topic: Example of institution Norwegian gunman destined for exposes fallacy of Justice  (Read 2117 times)
Stillwater
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« on: July 27, 2011, 19:16:36 »


When I first read of the story of the Norwegian tragedy, I think the most important thing for me in the whole article I read was the minor detail that if convicted, the gunman would face a maximum sentence of 21 years.

Let's step back a moment. If the same incident occurred in the US., with a single gunman bombing an executive government building, and murdering 100 children, an American Jury would be likely to vote to unanimously execute the individual. In fact, you can get a 20-year sentence merely for possessing enough marijuanna or other scheduled substance.

I was thinking this about a week ago, and about the implications of the approach of these two countries, and their mindsets; then today, I found this wonderful story. This story pleased me very much, in that classic "shock the bourgeoisie" line of humor that challenges middle-class value systems.:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/07/25/the_super_lux_super_max?page=0,0

The intent of the article is pretty clear- it seems targeted to generate a sense of "moral outrage" at the ammenities which are provided to the prisoners- jogging track in a park setting, pesonl trainers, flat-screen televisions in cell, encouragement to pursue creative activities and music, a recording studio for musicians, a rock-climbing wall, private bathrooms, etc.

I think what this article hammers home though, is the fact that the Norwegian legal system has lost faith in the idea of "justice".

In the US., it is believed that in order to provide a sense of "just fairness", it is necessary to visit the wrongdoings and sufferings criminals cause back onto themselves; people who cause harm should be harmed. Let's look at some of the realities, however. People who commit violent crimes, in nearly every case, fit into three categories: those who are mentally ill, those who were themselves victims of terrible acts in their childhood, and those called by poverty or socially traumatic environments into a mindset that one must steal or fight in order to make it in their situation.

The first set is curious in a way, since our legal system is lenient on the mentally ill, understanding that if a person is not in full control of their faculties, they cannot be counted on to act in a way that makes sense from our view of reality; oddly enough, however, I think our system tends to ignore this mitigating circumstance in violent crimes, and punishes people for merely being mentally ill. Likewise, I think our system tends to ignore the violent past many of these people have, that helps to shape them into becoming the person who commited the crime. And finally, not only does our mindset not make allowance for the fact that some feel forced into the lifestyle by circumstances they can't control, it is actually considered an aggravating factor to commit an act in a gang setting, when the reality is that gang members view their peers as their final social support group.

Going further, let's see what the fruits of this system of punishments is: rather than being counseled and treated for mental conditions, and helped to address their problems and deal with them internally, our system in the US. produces people who have been forced to live in a dangerous and hostile environment for decades, suffering rape and being forced to participate in racial-violence, and learning that the only way for them to be safe on a day-to-day basis is to show violent aggression to any who would challenge them. We take traumatized criminals who have committed violent acts in society, and we place them in a hyper-traumatic, hyper-violent environment for countless years, and then marvel that they come out even more violent and desperate.

And the premise that all of this is built on is the idea that people are responsible for their actions- we feel it is just to punish someone for doing ill if they had the ability to make another choice, and still chose to do wrong. But then, are we entirely sure people are even making choices, and are capable of more than one action in any situation? The prevailing scientific paradigm is materialism, and materialism overwhelmingly implies philosophical determinism. If determinism is true, then no one is truly "responsible" for anything they ever do, good or bad. They did not make the choice to act in the way they did- the universe and the conditions and physical laws governing them produced the outcome, not any illusion of choice a person made. So there is clearly a cognitive dissonance in what we believe about the universe (scientific materialism, which implies determinism), and what we think about people and their actions (that people are responsible for what they do and think, even though determinism would forbid this).

So if all of this is true so far, we have a legal system which visits vengence upon criminals, and for actions they may not even be technically responsible for according to our science, and which produces individuals who are rendered even more dangerous to society by their sufferings. Rather than allow them to explore their mental issues, and to work through their problems and become stable individuals who are far less likely to commit desperate acts of harm against others, we allow quasi-religious fallacies about "justice" to prevent us from doing what is best for the criminals and the society they must later interact with.

So oddly enough, rather than being morally outraged about the treatment the Norwegian gunman may receive, I would go so far as to say it is the laudable example of a superior society of people who have had the mental discipline to see through ideas like social vengence, and the foolishness of the idea of punishment, and to take the course of action which rather than vicitimize criminals themselves, is able to see them as victims of their own past and situation, and to help they become greater than they were.
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Lexy
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« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2011, 19:45:06 »

I concur
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Astral316
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« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2011, 19:46:07 »

I agree that a superior society acts out of logic instead of emotion/vengeance towards its criminals. However, logic dictates that a government place the protection of the society above the quality of life of a criminal. Determinism really makes no difference here... criminals will be criminals, law enforcement will be law enforcement. Stiff consequences are as much about safety for the majority as it is punishment for the criminal. Eliminating the latter should not effect a proper legal/prison system. I think the guy should be kept away from society for longer than 21 years... more like the rest of his natural life. How he's handled during that period is another matter.
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« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2011, 19:58:19 »

it is true he should get life imprisonment
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« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2011, 21:02:51 »

Quote
I agree that a superior society acts out of logic instead of emotion/vengeance towards its criminals. However, logic dictates that a government place the protection of the society above the quality of life of a criminal. Determinism really makes no difference here... criminals will be criminals, law enforcement will be law enforcement. Stiff consequences are as much about safety for the majority as it is punishment for the criminal. Eliminating the latter should not effect a proper legal/prison system. I think the guy should be kept away from society for longer than 21 years... more like the rest of his natural life. How he's handled during that period is another matter.

In the article they mentioned that under the Norwegian system they run screenings, and it is possible to extend the sentence of a person longer than the 21 years by 4-year increments if the person is still deemed to be a threat to society.

I assume from how it is descibed that there are careful psychological screenings to evaluate whether the individual is likely to commit further acts of violence, and that release is contingent on passing these screenings.

I don't think it is a question of needing a longer sentence in this case or any case, I think it is a question of treating and analyzing the individual in a conscientious enough manner that it can be determined when the person has grown past the original state they were in at the time of the crime. I think if the course of therapy is dedicated enough, it would take far less than 20 years.

Thus his release to me would depend not so much on years, but on when he was deemed to have grasped the meaning of his actions, and was taught to approach his emotions in a less destructve manner, and when qualified screeners were able to determine he ran little risk of repeating similar behaviors.
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« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2011, 21:45:06 »

I think there's no time period within a human lifespan in which it's possible to rebuild trust in a man who methodically carried out over 90 executions. Forgive him, sure... allow him to better himself and be productive, okay... but would you want him living in your neighborhood, being around your children/loved ones? It's easy to have the pacifist mentality when the problem is on the news and not the other side of the front door. Sometimes emotion should be a factor in decision making... it's what separates us from the robots. It's how we learn life lessons. Uncontrolled emotion is bad, yes... being emotionless in far worse in my opinion. Forgetting the gravity of this situation, the lives lost and incredible amount of negative energy manifested... all to help the guy who caused it "be a good boy in society"... that doesn't seem enlightened... inhumane, maybe... but not enlightened.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 21:47:53 by Astral316 » Logged
Lexy
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« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2011, 21:54:40 »

People can lie on those tests. It doesn't matter anyway, he should never be released. There is something incredibly wrong with a person who could do what he did. There
is no rehab for that.
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« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2011, 22:16:08 »

Don't get me wrong, I think it is entirely possible that he may never develop far enough to be safe in public. But I think it is meaningless to make that judgement now.

I do think, as was said, that to suggest that some iron edict be laid now and forever that he shall never at any time be released is an emotional reaction. I think every case is circumstantial, and that people are capable of change over time. He may be a different person in 15 years, or maybe he won't be. I think at every moment in the game you can look the situation and make a judgement that is relavent to that time, and reflects his mental state then.

I don't see this as an issue of pacifism though; it is more about developing a society where law seeks the best interests of all people involved, and supports those who need support, and protects the safety of all, regardless of their condition.
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« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2011, 22:42:09 »

He is lucky not to get the death penalty. Life imprisonment is good enough. I really don't care what his mental state is or will be. He took peoples lives, he should face consequences for that.
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« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2011, 22:54:34 »

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I really don't care what his mental state is or will be. He took peoples lives, he should face consequences for that.


I appreciate what you are saying, but I guess what my thesis here is saying is that the fundamental concept of punishment and consequences in general may be at fault.

What is your argument for why there should be consequences? I mean that sincerely.

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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2011, 23:58:28 »

If there are no consequences what is to stop others from committing the same crimes?
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« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2011, 00:32:34 »

I appreciate what you are saying, but I guess what my thesis here is saying is that the fundamental concept of punishment and consequences in general may be at fault.

What is your argument for why there should be consequences? I mean that sincerely.

The man is a homicidal psychopath.

The death penalty is simply the sane response to such a threat to society. It is simple self-defense. Life in prison is not a sane option in a case like this. The possibility of escape and further death and mayhem is too great a risk to take a chance on.

Ted Bundy was caught and convicted and then escaped to go on and commit more murder sprees.





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« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2011, 00:59:39 »

An eye for an eye and the world goes blind.

Even in the U.S., the prison system is corrupt and overcrowded.  Sure, inmates lack "freedom," but otherwise prison just isn't a big deal.  I've heard stories of abusive spouses intimidating their mates into smuggling drugs into the jails on a regular basis.  Inmates play sports, have free food and shelter, and have universal healthcare.

In the end, as long as the criminal element is separated from normal society, that's all I care about.  And that's all anyone can ever really ask for.  

Quote
The death penalty is simply the sane response to such a threat to society. It is simple self-defense. Life in prison is not a sane option in a case like this. The possibility of escape and further death and mayhem is too great a risk to take a chance on.
Considering how incredibly rare prison escapes are these days, this is really a non-issue.

In my experience, people encouraging the death penalty are either 1) religious, or 2) personally offended and angered by the crime, and want to satisfy their own personal sense of justice.
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Astral316
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« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2011, 01:48:53 »

I do think, as was said, that to suggest that some iron edict be laid now and forever that he shall never at any time be released is an emotional reaction.

An emotional reaction is the hope that he is tortured to death. A logical reaction is this... the past is the best predictor of the future and human behavior is no exception here. We can never get in the gunman's head and be sure he's truly "fixed." So we have to predict and weigh risks/rewards... is this guy's freedom worth more than the 90+ lives he's taken and the more lives he could possibly take? The answer... on every level of my understanding is no.

I don't see this as an issue of pacifism though; it is more about developing a society where law seeks the best interests of all people involved, and supports those who need support, and protects the safety of all, regardless of their condition.

A superior society knows it can't have both security for all and freedom for all until it's completely purged of crime. The mentality needs to change in the free world before it does in the legal/prison systems. Until we no longer live on a planet with significant crime, poverty and abuse then deterrence through harsh consequences for harsh crimes is a necessity.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 02:18:33 by Astral316 » Logged
Rudolph
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« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2011, 04:42:14 »

An eye for an eye and the world goes blind.
[....]
Considering how incredibly rare prison escapes are these days, this is really a non-issue.

In my experience, people encouraging the death penalty are either 1) religious, or 2) personally offended and angered by the crime, and want to satisfy their own personal sense of justice.

The eye for an eye comment is quaint but ignores the main point (typical).
The death penalty is self-defense. It is a sane response to a real problem.

What makes you think prison escapes are so rare? While the rate has dropped quite a bit lately it is hardly negligible. If you can find stats to back up your claim I would like to see them. I found this on Yahoo;
"The number of escapees from US prisons dropped from 12.4 escapes per 1,000 inmates in 1981 to .5 per 1,000 in 2001. With approximately 3,000,000 people incarcerated, that would be about 1,500 per year."

That's a lot, imo.

1. I am not religious
2. I am neither offended nor angered by something done on the other side of the world, in a place that I have almost no ties whatsoever to.

In my experience those who oppose the Death Penalty are lost in chronic Denial and refuse to face facts.

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