FREE WILL? THERE IS NONE!

[schotzi]

What exactly is free will? Do we REALLY have free will?

What is "destiny" then?

If (for example) destiny is real.....boy meets girl under strange circumstances and people say "it is destiny" that they met . Then how could all the circumstances that got them together be FREE WILL. (like mom got new job, dad was transfered to a new city).

So if the life I lead is the life I chose.....then what is the "FREE WILL".....CAUSE I ALREADY CHOSE IT!

[Spawn_Xe]

destiny vs free will are.. its simply a paradox.

Tho it does all depend on how you look at it.. destiny could be said as "the destination" where as free will is the "journey". Basically, you're heading in the direction eventually.. but how and when you get there is the consequence of free will.


You have to remember, free will is somthing of controversial subject when you're trying to fit it all into "gods divine plan".. coz how can we have free will if its all planned out anyway?. From this perspective, even the journey is nothing but a course of actions that are planned around and for us. We're mearly actors in a never ending story.


This is somthing thats confused me, especially when you get all these "channelers" of god or higher spirits trying to explain existence.. even when they speak of the higher stral plains having "no time".. yet we hear that our spirit after death gets to review its action s and proceed with the appropriate course of action.. but then that would involve a linear timeframe, because the spirit would already know what would happen before embarking on any of its journeys.




my opinion.. don't dwell on it, its a headache for any time constrained lifeform.

[schotzi]

I was reading a post from (I think) noob or something like that. I can't find the post now. Anyway, noob was talking about suicide - a lot of the replys were along the line of how it can mess up your souls journey.

That got me to thinking (again) about.....well, the old question.....if your life is planned then suicide is the "path". DON'T get me wrong.....I do believe that suicide WILL cause lots of problems but I was just kind of wanting some opinions on this free will thingy.

[Leo Volont]

People renounce Free Will for only one reason, and that is to evade Moral Responsibility.

Examine Paul's arguments for Predestination.  Almost immediately he uses the concept to assert a nihilistic amoralism.  John Calvin with his presbyterreanism takes the same tact -- that the Predestined Elect are beyond the considerations of morality, and thus we can account for the high number of Presbyterreans who were rum-runners, slave traders, and proprieters of bone-grinding factories.

so anytime you here somebody arguing against Free Will, they are trying to screw somebody and don't want to have to feel guilty about it.

They would want you to believe that some people are Destined to be Predators and some people destined to be Victims.  It just always happens as a happy coincidence that those who believe it are ALWAYS the ones who are the Predators.

[Rob]

OK with the destiny Vs free Will argument - Spawn you have already touched upon how I would solve that one. But first - what you say about there being no time in the higher dimensions, I am not sure if that is entirely it, its more that time has less meaning, and its only until you get the highest ultimate dimension that there is no time, whatsoever, nor any individuality etc. Well thats how I see it, and it helps answer this argument for me.

If, on the highest dimension, there is no time, then yes everything is done as its done, everything IS. So that is the "destiny" thing. But from our perspective, we still have to live life, and it is within the frame of our free will that these things happen - and if we say "oh its all destined, so whats the point?" and then spend all our time sitting inside waiting for destiny to appear well then.....lol.....so be it. So the two points are entirely congruent but at the same time, don't contradict free will.

The argument I find more difficult is deciding how the decision making process works. I mean, I know that ultimately our "soul" is formless and immense, but we live through the filter (mostly?) of our surface personalities, which are in a way the programs running in our brain (the hardwiring), but then if they are just programs then where the hell is free will there?? Can we make any decision which does not run through our brain? Is it then not all just the illusion of free will, since we are following the parameters of programmed personality form??? And what is the method through which we change? Can consciousness really exert that much influence past these silly bloody programs??!

Well OK, it doesn't keep me up at night, but it does concern me 

[ryand]

What exactly is free will? Do we REALLY have free will?

What is "destiny" then?

If (for example) destiny is real.....boy meets girl under strange circumstances and people say "it is destiny" that they met . Then how could all the circumstances that got them together be FREE WILL. (like mom got new job, dad was transfered to a new city).

So if the life I lead is the life I chose.....then what is the "FREE WILL".....CAUSE I ALREADY CHOSE IT!

There is free will but there is also evnts which you will experience regardless. Generally speaking relationships, offspring, jobs, homes and death are already taken care of as part of your earthly path. You will experience these as necessary regardless. You do have free will on most other things though. The FAQ on my site might give you some insight.
Ryan

astraldiarist.com

[Rob]

Generally speaking relationships, offspring, jobs, homes and death are already taken care of as part of your earthly path.

Out of curiousity, what do you base this upon?
Ya know, I could believe it possible that we are maybe suppose to do some things. However, given my own life experience, it would appear that even if this is the case, it doesnt always work out.
However, TBH I am more interested in how you justify that argument. Heard it a lot you see, not ever heard anything to back it up tho... go on, suprise me 

Rob

[schotzi]

There is free will but there is also evnts which you will experience regardless. Generally speaking relationships, offspring, jobs, homes and death are already taken care of as part of your earthly path. You will experience these as necessary regardless. You do have free will on most other things though. The FAQ on my site might give you some insight.
Ryan

astraldiarist.com

This sounds like the theory I have always adopted.

[Rob]

That the point though, innit? Adopted arguments, generally people take them on because you want them to be true, and feel confortable with them, not because any evidence past the extremely flimsy points to them being true.
The same could be said of most of societies beliefs. E.g. people believe that the psychical is rubbish because they feel secure in group mindset, and then have an animalistic target which allows them to put themselves, psychologically speaking, on a higher level than people who believe in such things (TV plays on this biiig time). Pack thinking. Its not that they have any knowledge of the subject at hand.
Which I kinda why I think adopting beliefs is....unwise. Sorry but I think this is important and is why I am saying it so bluntly.
Which is related to why I asked in my last post. I'd like to know, is there evidence, is just more absorbing based on wishful thinking?
(in a nice way!)
(btw I aint calling people who absorb the beliefs being discussed about life planning etc animalistic and brute, just illustrating another mechanism through which the belief absrobtion process occurs and the disastrous consequences it can have at impeding the growth of knowledge)