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Author Topic: ----->Homosexuality <------  (Read 27269 times)
cainam_nazier
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« on: April 02, 2003, 11:52:55 »

1. How do you feel about homosexuality in general? Do you think homosexuality is wrong?
     My personal feelings are that it's not for me.  That much I know for sure.  As far as it being wrong in general....I don't know.  I guess in a way it is NOT.  How can love be wrong?  Although I find it interesting that for the vast majority seeing two women kiss in public is not as offensive as two guys doing it.  Odd.  I all though I believe that it should be, "To each his own."  If it is good for you fine, just don't go forcing every one into it.  But that goes for both hetro' and homosexual.  

2. If not, do you think gays need to adavnce their agenda?
     Advance it how?  If you mean all the gay pride marches and events then...yes.  But on the same note it does not have to be low key like it is evil.  Just be normal.  So you are a guy who likes other guys, does that mean you have to walk down the middle of the street and tell the world.  It is one thing to be proud of who you are but it is another to open the door for riddicual.  But I also feel they should continue to fight for legal marriages and things like that.  But  only the things that are denied to them because of thier sexual preferance.  Why should they be denied the ability to do so?  Of course I feel the same way about a lot of the race issues also.  Yes I believe that every one should have equal rights, but I do not believe that your color, or sexual preferance entitles you to special rights.  

3. Do you know anyone who is gay (the chances are high that you do).
       Yes I do.  I also know several people who are bi.  I have also talked to a couple of them in length about these issues.

4. Spiritually and naturally, how does it fit in?
      Spiritually...ummm....If you believe in past lives then you must also accept the idea that you may not have always been your current gender.  In which case homosexuality could be view as carry over of sexual preferance.  IE: Being of the opposite gender before and still have the same sexuality now.  To me in this case it would simply be a part of you.  Some thing you would have to accept.
      Naturally...I don't know.  But some fish and frogs are capable of changing thier gender based on the population.  It could be that the same kind of thing happens in humans but with out the physical change.  I have witnessed dogs and such acting out the same way.  I have two female dogs.  Before we had them fixed the larger one would try to mount the smaller one when they went into heat.  They showed the same kind of change, if only in mentallity, that other species show physically.  We as humans just have a beter control over our more animalistic tendancies.

5. Are people born gay?
     Maybe they are and maybe they aren't.  That is a question of much scientific debate.  And to me it makes no difference.  Are we born liking certain foods or does it change with time.  You could have one bad experience with brocoli and never be able to eat it again even though it tastes the same.

6. Can gay people change?
     Again, maybe.  We could all change.  Hell your happily married, but you could wake up tomorrow and suddenly find yourself attacted to the UPS guy.  It being that not all men in brown shorts does it for ya but just that one.  It's probably unlikely but it "could" happen.  (please note that this is only an example.  I am not saying anything.)

7. How is sexual abuse tied into homosexuality (or is it??)
       In some cases yes.  See above section concerning brocoli.  But it is not a 100% of the time thing.  Not every single homosexual has been abused.  But any abuse can have an infinate number of psychological effects on a person.  It can have no effect at all or it could cause a person to go postal.  You never know.
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« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2003, 18:07:07 »

1)  Homosexuality doesn't bother me, I don't feel it's wrong.
2)  Yes. I think gays/lesbians need to enlighten people as to what it is to be homosexual.
3)  yes.
4)  Spiritually- my gay friend describes himself as a female born into the wrong body. In some cases I think gays (i think bisexuals may be the better term here) may be more spiritually advanced in some ways because they can find their soulmate, be it a man or a woman. Maybe their soulmate is the same sex as they are and they have learned to accept their fate.
5)  I think they are born heterosexual, but in some cases they may be born gay.
6)  I think that gays can change and I also think heterosexuals can change.
7)I think sexual abuse is only "tied in" with homosexuality due to homophobia. People associate the two. I don't think it's tied in any more than heterosexuality, i think people just make a bigger deal of it.

Most people who are truly comfortable with their sexuality will not worry about how they appear to others. I have a friend who has pictures of Disney princesses all over his room and he's the straightest person I know. He'll put up something pink if he thinks it's cool and doesn't care about what it might look like to someone else.
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« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2003, 18:07:07 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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kakkarot
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« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2003, 18:56:38 »

well, normally my stance on homosexuality is this: if they don't hit on me, i don't care.

but i guess i'll answer the questions too[|)]

1. i don't usually think much about homosexuality, but so far my own personal opinion is that it is a corruption of nature for humans to be homosexual. but like i said, i don't do anything about my personal opinion (ie, i don't participate in hate crimes, nor do i disrespect/judge/treat people based on their sexual preference.)

2. ?

3. yes.

4. i don't know.

5. no.

6. yes, of course! the same way anyone can change to become someone else.

7. i don't know.

there, that was easy [Wink].

~kakkarot
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MJ-12
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« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2003, 20:59:55 »

Ha
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James S
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« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2003, 02:06:48 »

My thoughts....

1)I have no problem with it whatsoever providing their views are not pushed down my throat. I don't consider it wrong. I am comfortably heterosexual, and providing homosexuals are ok with that, I'm ok with their sexuality.

2)Yes, I believe stable homosexual couples should have exactly the same rights, legal or otherwise, as any other couple.

3)I've had / I have gay neighbours, workmates and friends. I tend to get on with them quite well as I'm far from what you'd call the "macho" type myself. I've had very limited contact with true lesbians, but I've gotten on with them as I would anyone else.

4)Absolutely no differently to anyone else. Why should they be? I doub't the higher beings even care about a person's sexuality let alone discriminate against it. It's what's in thier hearts that matters.

5)Don't know! There's been quite a bit of conjecture about this, but I don't think anyones proven it one way or the other.

6)I've heard of it happening, but again haven't seen anything to substantiate it.

7)That's a tough question! Sexual abuse can psychologically affect people in all sorts of horrible ways. There could be links here, in terms of sexual repression or similar. I've no experience to draw on at all here.

To me homosexuals are just people, to be liked or disliked as anyone else. I don't actually put them into their own category.

James.


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« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2003, 02:06:48 »



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SpiritPathwalker
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« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2003, 03:09:58 »

1. I think as long as noone is hurt, what harm is done?  As for kakkarot's quote, "a coruption of nature", like MJ said, wild animals can be bi/gay as well.  So, how can something be a corruption of nature when it's part of nature?

2. Hardly.  I personally think the gay pride parade is a bit to far, don't see very many non-smokers parades, or working business man parades?

3. 2 others, and depending on how you look at it, halfway myself (bi).

4. Same way as everything else I suppose.

5. Possibly, I think it's more along the lines of potential though, eg someone could be born with a very good or very slight chance of being gay.

6. "The one constant in the universe is there is no constant."  Of corse one can, but it's up to the indivdual if one should.

7. Probably any sexual, or even emotional, abuse could change the odds towards liking the other gender, expecially at childhood.  In general I don't think it makes one gay or straight, but it could tilt the odds one way or another if it's about even.

-Spiirt

Yes, "I'm bi.", not that see me waving any signs advertising it.. wait a sec.. DOH!
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bentheogen
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« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2003, 08:18:48 »

i have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING against homosexuality. let me make that loud and clear Smiley
there is a comedy sitcom over here called I'm Alan Partridge.. he's one of the funniest characters on TV over here. Mid-life crisis kinda guy.. he is terrible.. i will just quote,
"God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.. I'm what you'd call a homoskeptic...".
he takes the tinkle out of people who think like this.. kinda south park-esque. v funny.
b
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PeacefulWarrior
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« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2003, 15:50:39 »

Well, I guess it's my turn.

First of all I want to say how much I admire those who chose to share their thoughts up to this point.  I admire how accepting and understanding you are and although I definetly disagree with some of the things which have been said here, I do agree that all people need to be respected as long as what they are doing does not infringe on the rights of others.

Answers to questions:
1.  How I feel about homosexuality.  Well, I think there are basically three kinds of homosexuals (generally): The first kind is the person who is born predisposed to be attracted to the opposite sex.  I feel these people are few and far between.  The second kind are those who have been abused in some way, whether sexually or physically, etc.  Studies show that a LARGE number of people who are homosexual have had negative sexual experiences, such as sexual abuse, at some point in their lives, especially early on.  Lastly, there are those individuals who have simply experimented with so many things that their selfish and twisted ways have led them to be bisexual or homosexual just because they got "bored"...many intellectual figures of the past might belong to this category.

So how do I feel about homosexuality?  I think it's wrong, yet I don't judge somebody as "evil" because they are homosexual.  I do, however, think it is against nature and is wrong...although I think a lot of it depends on WHY someone feels or acts this way.

to be concluded...
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« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2003, 18:29:47 »

Thanks for the links, I'll check it out.

The following is from the Family Research Council
-------------
Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse
Timothy J. Dailey, Ph.D.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scandals involving the sexual abuse of under-age boys by homosexual priests have rocked the Roman Catholic Church. At the same time, defenders of homosexuality argue that youth organizations such as the Boy Scouts should be forced to include homosexuals among their adult leaders. Similarly, the Gay Lesbian and Straight Education Network (GLSEN), a homosexual activist organization that targets schools, has spearheaded the formation of "Gay-Straight Alliances" among students. GLSEN encourages homosexual teachers -- even in the youngest grades -- to be open about their sexuality, as a way of providing role models to "gay" students. In addition, laws or policies banning employment discrimination based on "sexual orientation" usually make no exception for those who work with children or youth.

Many parents have become concerned that children may be molested, encouraged to become sexually active, or even "recruited" into adopting a homosexual identity and lifestyle. Gay activists dismiss such concerns -- in part, by strenuously insisting that there is no connection between homosexuality and the sexual abuse of children.

However, despite efforts by homosexual activists to distance the gay lifestyle from pedophilia, there remains a disturbing connection between the two. This is because, by definition, male homosexuals are sexually attracted to other males. While many homosexuals may not seek young sexual partners, the evidence indicates that disproportionate numbers of gay men seek adolescent males or boys as sexual partners. In this paper we will consider the following evidence linking homosexuality to pedophilia:

Pedophiles are invariably males: Almost all sex crimes against children are committed by men.

Significant numbers of victims are males: Up to one-third of all sex crimes against children are committed against boys (as opposed to girls).

The 10 percent fallacy: Studies indicate that, contrary to the inaccurate but widely accepted claims of sex researcher Alfred Kinsey, homosexuals comprise between 1 to 3 percent of the population.

Homosexuals are overrepresented in child sex offenses: Individuals from the 1 to 3 percent of the population that is sexually attracted to the same sex are committing up to one-third of the sex crimes against children.

Some homosexual activists defend the historic connection between homosexuality and pedophilia: Such activists consider the defense of "boy-lovers" to be a legitimate gay rights issue.

Pedophile themes abound in homosexual literary culture: Gay fiction as well as serious academic treatises promote "intergenerational intimacy."

Male Homosexuals Commit A Disproportionate Number of Child Sex Abuse Cases
Homosexual apologists admit that some homosexuals sexually molest children, but they deny that homosexuals are more likely to commit such offenses. After all, they argue, the majority of child molestation cases are heterosexual in nature. While this is correct in terms of absolute numbers, this argument ignores the fact that homosexuals comprise only a very small percentage of the population.

The evidence indicates that homosexual men molest boys at rates grossly disproportionate to the rates at which heterosexual men molest girls. To demonstrate this it is necessary to connect several statistics related to the problem of child sex abuse: 1) men are almost always the perpetrator; 2) up to one-third or more of child sex abuse cases are committed against boys; 3) less than three percent of the population are homosexuals. Thus, a tiny percentage of the population (homosexual men), commit one-third or more of the cases of child sexual molestation.

Men Account for Almost All Sexual Abuse of Children Cases
An essay on adult sex offenders in the book Sexual Offending Against Children reported: "It is widely believed that the vast majority of sexual abuse is perpetrated by males and that female sex offenders only account for a tiny proportion of offences. Indeed, with 3,000 adult male sex offenders in prison in England and Wales at any one time, the corresponding figure for female sex offenders is 12!" 1
Kee MacFarlane, et al., writing in Sexual Abuse of Young Children: Evaluation and Treatment report: "The large majority of sexual perpetrators appear to be males (Herman & Hirschman, 1981; Lindholm & Willey, 1983)." 2
A report by the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children states: "In both clinical and non-clinical samples, the vast majority of offenders are male." 3
A study in the Journal of Sex Research states that "pedophilia does not exist, or is extremely rare, in women." 4
A Significant Percentage of Child Sexual Abuse Victims are Boys
According to the Journal of Child Psychiatry: "It was commonly believed fifteen years ago that girls were abused in excess of boys in a ratio of about 9 to 1, but contemporary studies now indicate that the ratio of girls to boys abused has narrowed remarkably. . . . The majority of community studies suggest a . . . ratio . . . in the order of 2 to 4 girls to 1 boy." 5 Another study found that "some authors now believe that boys may be sexually abused as commonly as girls (Groth, 1978; O'Brien, 1980)." 6
A study of 457 male sex offenders against children in Journal of Sex & Marital Therapy found that "approximately one-third of these sexual offenders directed their sexual activity against males." 7
Sexual Abuse of Boys is Underreported
The actual percentage of child sexual abuse victims who are boys very likely exceeds the above estimates. Many researchers echo the view of the Journal of Child Psychiatry study, which refers to the "under-reporting of the incidence and prevalence of sexual abuse in boys." 8

Dr. Robert Johnson, in Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality, reports: "The vast majority of cases of male sexual molestation is not reported. As a result, these young men keep both the incidents and their feelings to themselves." 9
The Department of Justice report on child sexual exploitation explains why the percentage of boy victims is underestimated: "Adolescent boy victims are highly likely to deny certain types of sexual activity. . . . They are embarrassed and ashamed of their behavior and rightfully believe that society will not understand their victimization. . . . No matter what the investigator does, most adolescent boys will deny they were victims." 10
The Journal of Child Psychiatry adds: "Boys are usually encultured into an ethos where self-reliance, independence and sexual prowess are valued, while showing hurt or homosexuality are denigrated. . . . This may lead to powerful repression or deletion of the experience, with failure to report." 11
Homosexuals Comprise Less than 3 Percent of the Population
Relying upon three large data sets: the General Social Survey, the National Health and Social Life Survey, and the U.S. census, a recent study in Demography estimates the number of exclusive male homosexuals in the general population at 2.5 percent, and the number of exclusive lesbians at 1.4 percent. 12

A study of the sexual behavior of men in the United States based on the National Survey of Men (a nationally representative sample comprised of 3,321 men aged twenty to thirty-nine, published in Family Planning Perspectives), found that "2 percent of sexually active men aged twenty to thirty-nine . . . had had any same-gender sexual activity during the last ten years. Approximately 1 percent of the men (1.3 percent among whites and 0.2 percent among blacks) reported having had exclusively homosexual activity. 13
  J. Gordon Muir, writing in The Wall Street Journal, discusses a number of studies that have found that homosexuals comprise between 1 to 3 percent of the population. 14
In a survey of studies on homosexuals in different populations, the Archives of Sexual Behavior reported a random sample of Hawaii State residents interviewed by telephone. The study found "just about 3 percent of males and 1.2 percent of females as having engaged in same-sex or bisexual activity." 15 However, this relatively higher number is attributed to the fact that the study was not limited to exclusive homosexuals, but included all those who at some time in their lives engaged in same-sex activities. 16
Homosexual Pedophiles are Vastly Overrepresented in Child Sex Abuse Cases
Homosexual pedophiles sexually molest children at a far greater rate compared to the percentage of homosexuals in the general population. A study in the Journal of Sex Research found, as we have noted above, that "approximately one-third of [child sex offenders] had victimized boys and two-thirds had victimized girls." The authors then make a prescient observation: "Interestingly, this ratio differs substantially from the ratio of gynephiles (men who erotically prefer physically mature females) to androphiles (men who erotically prefer physically mature males), which is at least 20 to 1." 17

In other words, although heterosexuals outnumber homosexuals by a ratio of at least 20 to 1, homosexual pedophiles commit about one-third of the total number of child sex offenses.

Similarly, the Archives of Sexual Behavior also noted that homosexual pedophiles are significantly overrepresented in child sex offence cases:

The best epidemiological evidence indicates that only 2 to 4 percent of men attracted to adults prefer men (ACSF Investigators, 1992; Billy et al., 1993; Fay et al., 1989; Johnson et al., 1992); in contrast, around 25 to 40 percent of men attracted to children prefer boys (Blanchard et al., 1999; Gebhard et al., 1965; Mohr et al., 1964). Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 6 to 20 times higher among pedophiles." 18

The stark imbalance between homosexual and heterosexual child molestations was confirmed in the Archives of Sexual Behavior study itself, which divided 260 pedophile participants into three groups: "152 heterosexual pedophiles (men with offenses or self-reported attractions involving girls only), 43 bisexual pedophiles (boys and girls), and 65 homosexual pedophiles (boys only)." 19 In other words, 25 percent of the offenders were homosexual pedophiles -- or 41 percent if those who molest girls as well as boys are included.

Other studies report an unusually high percentage of child molestations by homosexual pedophiles:

A study on pedophilia in the Psychiatric Journal of the University of Ottawa reported: "According to the literature, findings of a two-to-one ratio of heterosexual to homosexual pedophiles have been documented." 20
The Journal of Sex Research reports a study that included "199 offenders against female children and 96 offenders against male children. . . . This would indicate a proportional prevalence of 32 percent of homosexual offenders against children." 21
A study of male child sex offenders in Child Abuse and Neglect found that fourteen percent targeted only males, and a further 28 percent chose males as well as females as victims, thus indicating that 42 percent of male pedophiles engaged in homosexual molestation. 22
Are Men Who Molest Boys Really 'Homosexuals'?
Gay Apologists Insist on a Simplistic Stereotype of Pedophilia
Central to the attempts to separate homosexuality from pedophilia is the claim that pedophiles cannot, by definition, be considered homosexuals. Relying upon a questionable methodology 23, the gay advocacy organization Human Rights Campaign published a "Fact Sheet on Sexual Orientation and Child Abuse," that states: "A sexual abuser who molests a child of the same sex is usually not considered homosexual." 24

The basis for this claim is the view that pedophiles who molest boys cannot be considered homosexual if that individual has at any time been married or sexually involved with women.

'Homosexual Pedophiles': A Clinical Term
The fact is, however, that the terms "homosexual" and "pedophile" are not mutually exclusive: they describe two intersecting types of sexual attraction. Webster's Dictionary defines "homosexual" as someone who is sexually attracted to persons of the same sex. "Pedophile" is defined as "an adult who is sexually attracted to young children." The former definition refers to the gender of the desired sexual object, while the latter refers to the age of the desired sexual object.

A male "homosexual pedophile," then, is defined as someone who is generally (but not exclusively, see below) sexually attracted to boys, while a female "homosexual pedophile" is sexually attracted to girls. 25

The term "homosexual pedophile" was first used in the early 20th century by the Viennese psychiatrist Dr. Richard von Krafft-Ebing, who pioneered the systematic study of sexual deviance. Krafft-Ebing described pedophiles as heterosexually, homosexually or bisexually oriented. 26 This division has been accepted by pedophiles themselves, 27 and is well attested in the literature:

A study of child molesters in Behavior Research and Therapy found that "a homosexual and a heterosexual subgroup can be delineated among these offenders." 28
The Journal of Sex & Marital Therapy published a study on the same topic, which discussed "the proportional prevalences of heterosexual and homosexual pedophilia." 29 The study commented on a study that found that "the percentage of the homosexual pedophiles would be 45.8." Even adjusted downward for exhibitionists, "this would still indicate a much higher percentage (34 percent) of homosexuals among pedophiles than among men who prefer physically mature partners." 30
In a review of studies on pedophilia, the Psychiatric Journal of the University of Ottawa concluded: "The findings of previous studies report that pedophiles can be divided into heterosexual and homosexual pedophiles according to their erotic preference. . . . This was confirmed in this recent study." 31 The article classified homosexual pedophilia into three types: the socially inadequate homosexual pedophile, the intrusive homosexual pedophile, and the undifferentiated homosexual pedophile. 32
A study of pedophiles in Behavior Research and Therapy concluded: "The second, and perhaps the most important observation we made, is that a homosexual and a heterosexual subgroup can be delineated among these offenders. . . . Categorizing them in this way revealed important differences in the pattern of their sexual preferences." 33
The International Journal of Offender Therapy and Comparative Criminology refers to homosexual pedophiles as a "distinct group." The victims of homosexual pedophiles "were more likely to be strangers, that they were more likely to have engaged in paraphiliac behavior separate from that involved in the offence, and that they were more likely to have past convictions for sexual offences. . . . Other studies [showed a] greater risk of reoffending than those who had offended against girls" and that the "recidivism rate for male-victim offenders is approximately twice that for female-victim offenders." 34
Homosexuals and Homosexual Pedophiles Engage in a Wide Variety of Sexual Behavior that Belies Simplistic Categories
Despite this evidence, in their efforts to divorce homosexuality from pedophilia, homosexual apologists insist on a rigid, narrow definition of the terms "homosexual" and "pedophile" that permits no overlap of the terms. They deny that homosexuals are attracted in inordinate numbers to boys. They also claim that pedophiles cannot be classified as "homosexual" if at any time they have had sexual relations with women.

However, such a narrow definition does not do justice to the complex nature of pedophilia. Researchers have long been aware that pedophiles exhibit a wide variety of sexual attractions and behavior -- often to draw attention away from their primary lust for boys. A study on sex offenders in the International Journal of Offender Therapy and Comparative Criminology notes that "the reason child sexual abusers are successful at remaining undetected is because they do not fit a stereotype." 35

The data indicates that both homosexuality and pedophilia are intersecting categories that admit to a wide variety of sexual behavior:

Homosexual Males are Sexually Attracted to Underage Boys
A study in Archives of Sexual Behavior found that homosexual men are attracted to young males. The study compared the sexual age preferences of heterosexual men, heterosexual women, homosexual men, and lesbians. The results showed that, in marked contrast to the other three categories, "all but 9 of the 48 homosexual men preferred the youngest two male age categories," which included males as young as age fifteen. 36
In The Gay Report, by homosexual researchers Karla Jay and Allen Young, the authors report data showing that 73 percent of homosexuals surveyed had at some time had sex with boys sixteen to nineteen years of age or younger." 37

Conversely, Homosexual Pedophiles are Often Attracted to Adult Males
A study of sex offenders against male children in Behavior Research and Therapy found that male homosexual pedophiles are sexually attracted to "males of all ages." Compared to non-offenders, the offenders showed "greater arousal" to slides of nude males as old as twenty-four: "As a group, the child molesters responsed [sp] with moderate sexual arousal . . . to the nude males of all ages." 38

A study of Canadians imprisoned for pedophilia in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence noted that some of the adult male offenders engaged in homosexual acts with adult males. 39
Many pedophiles, in fact, consider themselves to be homosexual. A study of 229 convicted child molesters in Archives of Sexual Behavior found that "eighty-six percent of offenders against males described themselves as homosexual or bisexual." 40
Fr. John Harvey, founder and director of Courage, a support ministry for Catholics who struggle with same-sex attraction, explains that "the pedophile differs from the ordinary homosexual in that the former admires boyishness in the object of his affections, while the latter admires manliness." 41 However, the categories are not completely separate:

While granting that the majority of homosexuals are not aroused by young boys, the distinction between homosexuality and homosexual pedophilia is not quite absolute. In some cases the interest oscillates between young adolescents and adults, in others between boys and adolescents; in exceptional cases a man may be interested in boys at one time and adults at another. 42

Many Pedophiles are Attracted to Women, Marry, and Have Children
Gay activists insist that pedophilia has nothing to do with homosexuality because pedophiles are only sexually interested in children, whereas homosexuals only have sexual relations with adults. We have already seen that this stereotypical view is not correct with regard to homosexuals. There is also abundant evidence demonstrating that, while primarily interested in children, pedophiles nevertheless exhibit a wide variety of sexual behaviors, including relationships with women:

A study in Child Abuse and Neglect found that 48 percent of the offenders either were married or had been married at some time. 43
The Journal of Interpersonal Violence studied the sexual preferences of male pedophiles who sexually abused children. When they compared the sexual response of the pedophiles with the control group, they found, unexpectedly: "Surprisingly, the two groups did not differ in their response to the nude female stimuli." 44
A study in the Psychiatric Journal of the University of Ottawa reported that "most of the middle-aged pedophiles have had significant adult sexual activity." 45 Fifty-eight percent of the pedophiles in one study had at least one child, while other research indicated that "more than two-thirds of the married pedophiles in their sample had children, with an average of two to three children per subject." 46
A report by the Department of Justice addressed the devious stratagems of pedophiles, who will go to great lengths to conceal their true desires: "Preferential sex offenders may be 'pillars of the community' and are often described as 'nice guys.' They almost always have a means of access to children (for example, through marriage, neighborhood, or occupation.)" 47
Thus, the evidence shows that homosexual pedophiles cannot be narrowly defined as individuals who are solely attracted to underage boys. In fact there is considerable overlap between homosexuality and pedophilia.

Pedophilia in Gay Culture
The Historical Connection between Pedophilia and the Gay Rights Movement
David Thorstad is a homosexual activist and historian of the gay rights movement. 48 He is a former president of New York's Gay Activists Alliance (GAA), a prototype activist group founded in December 1969. The GAA at its inception opposed age of consent laws, which prohibited adults from having sex with children. 49 Thorstad is also a pedophile and founding member of the North American Man Boy Love Association (NAMBLA).

Thorstad argues that there is a natural and undeniable connection between homosexuality and pedophilia. He expresses bitterness that the gay rights movement has, in his view, abandoned pedophilia. Thorstad writes: "Boy-lovers were involved in the gay movement from the beginning, and their presence was tolerated. Gay youth groups encouraged adults to attend their dances. . . . There was a mood of tolerance, even joy at discovering the myriad of lifestyles within the gay and lesbian subculture." 50

The inaugural issue of the Gay Community News in 1979 published a "Statement to the Gay Liberation Movement on the Issue of Man/Boy Love," which challenged the movement to return to a vision of sexual liberation. It argued that "the ultimate goal of gay liberation is the achievement of sexual freedom for all -- not just equal rights for 'lesbian and gay men,' but also freedom of sexual expression for young people and children."

In the early years there was some reluctance to accept pedophilia, primarily among feminist and lesbian activist groups. In March 1979 the Lesbian Feminist Liberation (LFL) accusing "so-called Man/Boy Lovers" of "attempting to legitimize sex between children and adults. . . . Feminists easily recognize this as the latest attempt to make palatable the sexual exploitation of children." The coalition went on record as opposing "the sexual abuse of children by heterosexual or homosexual persons." 51

Despite this opposition, Thorstad claims that by 1985 homosexual pedophiles had won acceptance within the gay movement. He cites Jim Kepner, then curator of the International Gay and Lesbian Archives in Los Angeles: "A point I've been trying to make is that if we reject the boylovers in our midst today we'd better stop waving the banner of the Ancient Greeks, of Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, Oscar Wilde, Walt Whitman, Horatio Alger, and Shakespeare. We'd better stop claiming them as part of our heritage unless we are broadening our concept of what it means to be gay today." 52

In 1985 nambla was admitted as a member in New York's council of Lesbian and Gay Organizations as well as the International Gay Association -- now the International Lesbian and Gay Association (ILGA). In the mid-1990's ilga's association with nambla and other pedophile groups cost the organization it's status as a Non-Governmental Organization in the United Nations.

ilga's renewed attempt to gain admittance to the UN was rejected again in April 2002 because the organization "did not document that it had purged pedophile groups such as [NAMBLA]." The Washington Times reports that Ishtiag H. Anrabi, Pakistani delegate to the UN Economic and Social Council, expressed concern that ilga was continuing to be secretive about ties with pedophile groups: "For more than a year, the ilga has refused to provide documentation or allow review of its membership list to demonstrate that pedophilia groups have been expelled." 53

Pedophile Themes Abound in Gay Literature
The late "beat" poet Allen Ginsberg illustrates the seamless connection between homosexuality and pedophilia. Many know Ginsberg as an illustrious "out" homosexual poet: fewer are aware that he was also a pedophile.

Biographer Raymond-Jean Frontain refers to Ginsberg's publications in both nambla Bulletin and nambla Journal. He discusses how Ginsberg's biographers failed to discuss his poems that contained pederastic themes:

Although both Shumacher and Barry Miles (Ginsberg's initial biographer) frankly discuss Ginsberg's sexual politics, neither refers to his involvement with the controversial North American Man/Boy Love Association. . . . I reread Collected Poems and Ginsberg's two subsequent collections, surprised by the pattern of references to anal intercourse and to pederasty that emerged. 54

Ginsberg was one of the first of a growing number of homosexual writers who cater to the fascination with pedophilia in the gay community. Mary Eberstadt, writing in the Weekly Standard, documents how the taboo against sex with children continues to erode -- with the impetus coming from homosexual writers. 55

Revealingly, the examples she provides of pedophilia in current literature come from gay fiction. Eberstadt cites the Village Voice, which states that "Gay fiction is rich with idyllic accounts of 'intergenerational relationships,' as such affairs are respectfully called these days." 56 Other examples of pedophilia-themed gay fiction include:

In the introduction of the "mainstream" homosexual anthology Penguin Book on International Gay Writing, David Leavitt notes matter-of-factly that "Another 'forbidden' topic from which European writers seem less likely to shrink is the love of older men for young boys." Leavitt praises one book with a pedophilic theme included in the anthology as a "coolly assured narrative [which] compels the reader to imagine the world from a perspective he might ordinarily condemn." 57
Several texts included in another anthology, The Gay Canon: Great Books Every Gay Man Should Read, feature scenes of man-boy sex. One such book is praised as "an operatic adventure into the realms of love, personality, ambition and art . . . a pure joy to read." The protagonist is "a pedophile's dream: the mind of a man in the body of a boy." 58 Another novel which includes graphic descriptions of sexual violence against boys is said to "[tear] straight to the heart of one of the greatest sources, community-wide, of 1990's gay angst: What to do with men who love boys?" 59
Yet another anthology of homosexual fiction, A History of Gay Literature: The Male Tradition, published by Yale University Press, includes "a longish chapter on 'Boys and Boyhood' which is a seemingly definitive account of pro-pedophile literary works." 60 The author appears more concerned with the feelings and emotions of the man than with his boy victim. He explores the question of "whether or not you regard [having sex with boys] as a way of retreating from life or, on the contrary, as a way of engaging with it at its most honest and least corrupted level." 61
A significant percentage of books that have appeared on the Gay Men's Press fiction bestseller list contain pedophilia themes, including:

Some Boys: described as a "memoir of a lover of boys" that "evokes the author's young friends across four decades." 62

For a Lost Soldier: the story of a sexual relationship between a soldier and an eleven-year-old boy, set during World War II. 63

A Good Start, Considering: yet another story about an eleven-year-old boy (!) who suffers sexual abuse but is rescued by a teenager who "offers him love and affection" 64

Terre Haute: billed as "A poetic novel of sexual awakening in the American Midwest, tracing an adolescent's journey from introspection to perilous desire."

Shiva and Arun: the story of two Indian adolescents who "discover early on the joys of sex."

Teardrops on My Drum: barefoot kids in 1920's Liverpool search for "adventure, love and sex."

Pro-pedophilia Publications

Recent years have seen the appearance of publications that lend a scholarly veneer to the fascination with pedophilia in the gay community. Such publications attempt to make the case for "intergenerational intimacy." The nation's largest gay publisher, Alyson Publications, which distributes Daddy's Roommate and other homosexual books that promote homosexuality to children, publishes books advocating man-boy sex, including:

Paedophilia: The Radical Case, which contains detailed information on how to engage in sexual relations with young boys. 65

The Age Taboo, another defense of pedophilia which claims: "Boy-lovers . . . are not child molesters. The child abusers are . . . parents who force their staid morality onto the young people in their custody." 66
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« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2003, 21:34:16 »

av
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« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2003, 22:46:40 »

It is easier to vindicate one's self of one's stubbornly held views if love is not present.

Love requires non-judgemental acceptance of others.
The society we are raised in tends to want to prevent that. Ever notice how many "experts" there are in the media who's opinions on just about any subject, in their eyes at least, is to be considered absolute fact?

James.
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« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2003, 23:13:08 »

Wow, That was a lot of information.

SO my question becomes this.  

How many of the sex offenders were abused themselves?


     Of course I can not supply the documentation like above but I know that most if not all of the people who commit abuse, in all forms, were abused themselves.  So what are the percentages of people who were abused as children, ended up being sexually deviant because of it, and then later sexually abused children?  

     As far as teachers and thier sexual preferance.  I don't think any teacher below collage level should be allowed to make any referance to thier sexual preferances.  Human sexuality is not some thing that should be addressed until collage.  Even in sex edication classes that are given through school don't touch the human sexuality topic.  For the most part they only cover parts, how they work, and how to use protection.  The referance of the man/woman interaction in these classes is only for the covering of reproduction.  And we all no that for the vast majority of people having sex, reproduction is considered a side effect.  95% of the time it is done for the pleasure of the experience.  These classes should not cover sexual preferance, more so at the lower level classes, because full mental maturity has not been reached.
     For a teacher to be open about thier sexual preferances is akin to them saying sex is fun.  (Note, I am not saying it isn't.)  However that is not the message we should convey to our young people.  And to have a homosexual person being open about thier sexual preferences would drive home the "sex for fun" idea because of the reproduction impossabilities of same gender sex.
     That being said, I really don't care what the age, gender, or sexual leanings a teacher has.  Just so long as it is not openly discussed in class rooms.
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« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2003, 23:44:26 »

"There are a lot of sexually unhealthy people in this world (hetero and homo alike). You just have to go on the internet to see the MASSIVE very sad heterosexual market there is...even for kiddy porn"

-WELL SAID Timeless.  I wholeheartedly agree.  I am not trying to pick on anyone here.  In fact, MJ-12, please don't get defensive...lile Timeless said, we are just here to share opinions and exhange ideas, that's the point of a place like this.

MJ-12, to answer the your new question of how homosexuals should be treated: with love.  It's that simple.  I try to love everyone, I really do.  Does that mean I agree with what everyone does?  No.

I think the family is one of the most important things.  Face it, if it weren't for a man and woman getting together, none of us would be here, right?

I think God and Heavenly Mother teach us a great deal about them and ourselves through marriage and family.

Finally, cainam brings up a good point.  I am a teacher and I don't share my personal views about spirituality and sex in the classroom and I don't especially don't want others doing this.  I believed otherwise I would go teach in a private school.
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« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2003, 02:50:37 »

as
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« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2003, 07:22:03 »

Sorry if I am not being clear.  

Here's what I am saying:

I think homosexuality is wrong.
---------------------------------
Although that's the bottom line, I will add that I don't hate homosexuals, but I adamantly oppose same sex marriage and education regarding homosexuality, at least to children.  I also feel very sorry for anyone who is sexually perverse, including heterosexuals who engage in distasteful and/or evil practices.

I regard sexuality as a sacred thing.

THE POWER TO PROCREATE IS LIKE THE POWER TO KILL.  PROCREATION BRINGS SOULS INTO THIS WORLD AND MURDER FORCES THEM OUT OF IT.  

Spoken.
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« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2003, 22:51:28 »

I am gay. i was born gay. i dont think i can change.
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« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2003, 01:59:42 »

Sorry timeless I had erased my post before seeing your response because on second thought it was pretty harsh but i'll put down teh basics of what i said since you responded.

I thought using procreation as an excuse against homosexuality is bovine excrement.  Procreation isnt something people need to preserve in anyway.  We're over populated and its a way to pretend the reasons are logical.

We use birthcontrol and many couples chose not to procreate soem even adopt.  There are most single families due to fathers leaving and social issues way more important than pretending you're offended by homosexual sex because of the lack of procreation.  I'll put more of my points back if you want.  Only cus i hate when i respond then what i responded to was gone.

the basic gist was i felt this topic was any other anti homosexual topic but it was disguised as being because he loves life.  If you love life so much be one of the people finding homes for the thousands of kids without one.  Instead of pretending to love homosexuals even though you think they're doing evil because of the fact they're not having babies.
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« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2003, 14:59:07 »

quote:
Originally posted by PeacefulWarrior

Sorry if I am not being clear.  

Here's what I am saying:

I think homosexuality is wrong.
---------------------------------
Although that's the bottom line, I will add that I don't hate homosexuals, but I adamantly oppose same sex marriage and education regarding homosexuality, at least to children.  I also feel very sorry for anyone who is sexually perverse, including heterosexuals who engage in distasteful and/or evil practices.

I regard sexuality as a sacred thing.

THE POWER TO PROCREATE IS LIKE THE POWER TO KILL.  PROCREATION BRINGS SOULS INTO THIS WORLD AND MURDER FORCES THEM OUT OF IT.  

Spoken.



dont feel sorry for us! what, you think our lives are somehow worse than yours? dont flatter yourself.
and why is it wrong? I didnt wake up yesterday gay, okay? you think I want this? with people like you closing your minds and hearts to us, it just makes it all the more difficult to be ourselves. what is wrong with us? we dont fit your picture of 'normal'?
I believe people should be open minded to everything until they learn firsthand that it is wrong or untruthful to them personally.
have you found gay people wrong? has anyone gay killed one of your friends? I'm sure most of you will notice that gay people are usually the nicest people you could ever meet!
this isnt about reproduction. this could even be considered a good thing to those considerate enough to consider it!
fact one- the earth is wildley overpopulated.
fact two- allot of those people are children, children who were abandoned.
fact three- who's gonna adopt them all?

fact four- by adopting those children, parents make a better impact on the world by helping others and not adding one more mouth to feed (if you worry about that kind of thing)

my point? gay people adopt. (or i should say some adopt.) by adopting, we are helping a little soul grow up happy and heathy in a world that didn't want it.

why do you have a problem with us? we're going against 'the natural order of things'? we disgust you? I'm talking to everyone here who has a problem with us, get over it.
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« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2003, 15:01:25 »

just let me live.
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Tom
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« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2003, 15:10:53 »

In some classroom years ago, this was explained to me: It is unusual to be completely heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual. Most people fall somewhere on a scale between 100% heterosexual and 100% homosexual. Being bisexual would be somewhere around 50%. Regardless of how you choose to draw the diagram, it is actually a minority of people who would be at 0, 50, or 100%. Artificial boundaries make for convenience in discussion.
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« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2003, 17:07:40 »

quote:
Originally posted by timeless

Dear Spirit Gurl,

Thank you for speaking up.  For you truly are the one who understands this all.  You have some very excellent points.  

Much Love,
timeless




thank you! [Cheesy] but im not the only one with good points...[8D]

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James S
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« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2003, 21:41:52 »

I found an interesting comparrison once.

It seems the way the christian church treats homosexuals today is very similar to the way the jews treated the lepers 2000 years ago. Jesus was very openly against that then, how do you think he would fell about the way his chuch is acting now?

The trouble does not come down to the teachings of the bible. Leviticus is the only book that has any possibly negative references to homosexuality, and the church leaders seem to drag these poor old misinterpreted passages out every time. No mention anywhere that the "homosexual" acts in Leviticus were a description of the way a ruthless people would subjugate and humiliate their captives. The historians seem to know how the society of this day worked. Why don't the churches?

To me the misinterpretation of the meanings of Leviticus by the christian church regarding homosexuality is just the same as Jehovah's Witnesses refusing blood transfusions because of misinterpreting bible passages, also in Leviticus I think, where it mentioned a ritual to do with drinking the blood of sacrificed animals. Things like this usually get out of hand because of the personal opinions of one prominent church leader and what he considers to be the truth of the matter.

A truly spiritual christian who genuinely seeks the mind of Jesus Himself should look more at how He would be treating this subject, not how church doctorine treats it. I can almost guarentee such a person will find a very different viewpoint.

The negative view of homosexuality held by the churches is not terribly surprising when you consider that many churches can't properly deal with any kind of sexuality, let alone homosexuality.

James.
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« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2003, 00:27:49 »

Just to take the "i know alot of gay people and i respect most of them".  This is one of the most annoying things people say in my opinion.  What if a gay person were to say "my sister was raped by a heterosexual male therefore I really dont like them".  No matter how many gay people you know.. even the ones youre so kind enough to respect (sarcasm here).  Gay refers to whom they chose to sleep with.  Their individual personality traits differ just like heterosexual people.  

What do you care who someone is sleeping with?  I personally worry more about all the teenage pregnancies.  People having kids they dont want and people having kids and abusing them than I am about people who chose not to have children.

BTW another silly thing i caught you saying was your mother and father could show us what the holy mother and father are like?

"I think God and Heavenly Mother teach us a great deal about them and ourselves through marriage and family."
  Are you that brainwashed?  What holyfather and mother are you talking about.?  Is there a nice married male and female couple in the bible.. does god have a wife?  Maybe you're thinking of mr and mrs clause.  I honestly dont get what you're talking about.
It is nice thinking of god and his loving wife.. (maybe you were thinking of mary?) sitting up in heaven.. looking down at their kids.  Then paying the bills.. her cooking supper for him and him complementing her on her new recipe?  

I find it really illogical and weird to worry so much about people that are harming no one.  BTW those stats you put up are bovine excrement.  I can find stats stating dark haired individuals are more likely to rape.

Again worry about what you do and if you think calling an act which to gay people is love evil you're somehow just bringing up a debate is crap.  People have been killed for those types of sentiments.  Somehow they think they're doing good by stoping that evil or perversion.  

And no im not gay.  Although most think if you get upset at homophobia you must be gay.. I hate any prejudice especially when people try to justify it by saying things like not having babies somehow ties into murder.
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« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2003, 02:38:02 »

Homosexuality is no more wrong than heterosexuality, in my opinion. We humans have a distinction that animals do not. There is homosexuality in nature (my dog, for instance, would mate with anything that walks- or just sits there- regardless of its sex), and therefore  one cannot say that there is anything unnatural about it. And if one is to say that it is still wrong, regardless of the fact that it exists in nature, then they are contradicting themselves. Sexuality happens. Anyway, what I was saying about humans is, we search out soulmates, people we love, and I feel that no matter what the sex of that person is, you will find them if you open your mind and your eyes. I am not saying be homosexual, but don't be afraid of being homosexual just because you think society will do harm to you for it. There are many who don't give a f*** what society thinks. I am one of those people. I am 100% heterosexual, and I see no problem with homosexuality or sticking up for those who are. My friend collects Barbie dolls, pictures of the princess Zelda (from the nintendo game), and puts up pink posters of Disney princesses because he finds them (the princesses) to be attractive. He is the straightest man I know. I see this as a sign that he is quite comfortable with his sexuality and is not afraid to show it. He's quite ordinary in most ways, yet quite extraordinary as well.

Quite honestly, I think that homosexuality is possibly a fetish in some ways. A very poplular one, as fetishes go. I know Spiritgurl said she doesn't feel she could change, and I believe her. I admire her strength for stating her opinion, especially at her age. She is a very strong person. I know she'll probably disagree with me on this, but I still think it's possible that it's a fetish, and I say this because of what I know about my own fantasies and my own sexual preferences. My friend explained it best- when you find the fetish that best suits you (we refer to a fetish as any sex whatsoever, and how the circumstances of it turn you "on," whether it's "normal," bondage, costumes, whatever), you like it so much that you want to have it that way all the time, because nothing else arouses you. Like I said, I consider "ordinary" hetero-sex a fetish. Just because it happens to be the way most people seem to like it, doesn't mean that it is not possibly a fetish. I will not state mine here, because I feel they are personal and are nobody else's business. But I will tell you that I would want it to be this way all (or most of) the time if it were possible, because that is what I prefer. It's like going to an icecream store that has all the flavors. Obviously most people like either chocolate or vanilla, but there are a lot more people who would choose something else. Some people might have a combination of flavors. Anyway, enough of my corny rant. I completely understand if you disagree. Spititgurl, could you shed some light on this? I'd really appreciate hearing you out, as you are a homosexual who believes that you (personally, not people in general, if I read your post right) cannot change their sexual orientation. I want to hear what you have to say about this. My friend just shared this theory of his with me today, and I want to get opinions and information before I totally and completely agree with him. I believe he's on to something though.
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PeacefulWarrior
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« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2003, 05:47:53 »

Hey everyone.  I sense a lot of hatred and anger towards me because of the way I feel.  I just want you to know that I don't feel this way toward you.

...and by the way, GoingSlow, please don't use foul language in these forums.  That's one thing I feel adamant about, it degrades the high quality, respectful atmosphere of the forums.  Also, attacking my personal beliefs and belittling me (or anyone else for that matter) simply shows your lack of respect and understanding.  

---------
Lastly, James S, the bible is full of references to homosexuality was wrong...please look at Paul again.  I don't, however, take my stance soley because of what the Bible says.
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