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Author Topic: ----->Homosexuality <------  (Read 27277 times)
seekenergyaz
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« Reply #75 on: April 09, 2003, 16:41:45 »

Hi.

I don't want to give the impression that I'm ranting on about PeacefulWarrior, or am judging him.  I do take issue with some of what he posted (most of it had to do with the article that dealt with statistics, some of it did touch on the other stuff a little).

I'm sure from his point of view, he does not believe himself to be judging anyone, that it is a matter of love the sinner hate the sin.  Of course this particular type of nonjudgementalism, where I've seen it expressed elsewhere (and as I viewed it myself once) is usually predicated on the idea that one doesn't know that any particular individual won't go straight someday.  I'm not sure whether he might stand in the same place regarding those who died still gay.  Perhaps he sees them as roasting someplace.  I don't know.

He has a right to believe what he does, even if some of us view his basis as being dogma or skewed information.  Nothing in the U.S. Constitution nor in the law of most other progressive countries against believing in religious dogma if one so chooses.  

My own views are a little ambivalent.  I don't always know what to make of it, even though life has thrown me headlong into having to deal with the subject.  I've never been LDS, but would have agreed in years past with a lot of what the man in the LDS views on homosexuality article said.  The FRC article might have rubbed me the wrong way even then.

Still, wherever I find myself, or don't find myself, in all this mess, we each have to look at this and decide what to conclude, or whether we are going to conclude with what information we have.

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goingslow
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« Reply #76 on: April 09, 2003, 16:49:21 »

I think its a no brainer anyone has the right to state their opinion.  And people who it offends have the right to speak back.

Id much rather have my opinion spoken about than have someone say "you have a right to that opinion".  That does absolutely nothing.  If your opinion is condemning others (even if you think it isnt' doing that) then expect others opinions to be just as honest.

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« Reply #76 on: April 09, 2003, 16:49:21 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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seekenergyaz
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« Reply #77 on: April 09, 2003, 16:58:35 »

Fair enough.



quote:
Originally posted by goingslow

I think its a no brainer anyone has the right to state their opinion.  And people who it offends have the right to speak back.

Id much rather have my opinion spoken about than have someone say "you have a right to that opinion".  That does absolutely nothing.  If your opinion is condemning others (even if you think it isnt' doing that) then expect others opinions to be just as honest.



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« Reply #78 on: April 09, 2003, 17:50:23 »

Peaceful Warior, you still have not answered my question. Why do you feel that true love can only happen between heterosexual couples? You keep saying that heterosexuals can raise families. So can homosexuals, through adoption. It would seem to me that it's good to have homosexual couples because with such a high divorce rate and people who do not care for their children, the homosexuals can give them a good home and environment to grow up in.
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Spirit_Gurl
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« Reply #79 on: April 09, 2003, 18:39:18 »

it said that gay couples miss out. why would they choose something they would be laughed at for?


I say, my point exactly. why would we choose this?
__________________________________________________________________
I was born gay. you want proof? number one, ive never had a true boyfriend, so what exactly was i supoosed to become bored with?
number two, my drawing skills.
when I was little, and even now, I can only draw girls. seriously. whenever i try to draw a boy, it comes out looking like... i dunno, too feminine. like if I added a chest and longer hair, it would be a girl. i never even noticed until about a month a ago, i was like, 'hey! if im gay, maybe that's why i cant draw guys! h'mmm...'

but, come on! why would I choose this life? why? that's my whole point. I must seem like a great exeption to you, because im not bored, i have never been sexually abused at all in any way, verbally or mentally or physically, and ive never had a BF or GF, and im so young, you probably think that one day ill wake up mature and realize i was just fooling myself.

but ill tell you something. (you asked for it. those of you with weak constitutions, blease leave this site. ) ever scince i was little, I never thought about 'doing it.' you might say, 'oh! no little kid does! she's still young now! she'll get over it!' but this is different. i imagine a guy doing that to me and i cringe. and it's not just that. when i was as young as.... i think 6 or 7 years old, id stare for hours at the pretty girls in my nursury rhymes book. this was so normal to me, i never even considered that i was gay until last year, and even then i only thought i was bi.
wanna know more? there's a kid in my class. last year in 7th grade, he stood up in homeroom and announced proudly, "I hate gay people. If I ever met a gay person, I'd kill 'em." and as soon as he said that, all the guys started laughing and patting his back.


you think i WANT this? you think i CHOSE this? you think I dont listen to one of my boy-crazy friends gabbering on and on about them, and wish that i felt the same way so i could talk about them too?
and then there are times when im proud. when I talk to my two friends that know im gay, they treat me no different. yes, even at this age. I cried, because i seriously thought they would treat me different, or tell someone. but they didnt and i was so relieved, i cried.
do you know how hard it is to sqeeze those words out? "I think I'm gay"? do you? you don't ever see it said on TV, or in a book, so you dont know how to say it. you just have to use blunt words. and then, needing to sit there looking at the person, or hearing their shocked silence on the other end of the phone.... and then imagine all those kids who are kicked out of their homes for being gay. i know it wont happen to me, but imagine I have at least 5o perople in my family. how hard will it be to tell each one of them? who knows but the more religeous ones will never see me and my future wife as truly married. I know for an almost fact that if i ever told my grandma i even believed in reincarnation, she would try to change my mind. what would she do about this?
what if i get killed in high school? what if a blabber mouth friend tells everyone? what if i meet someone I love?
you have it easy. you get to assume that everyone is straight. you can say 'I love you'. but us? unless we know for a fact that they're gay, we can't have crushes. what would happen if I was mislead, and told a girl i loved her, and she looked at me and said, 'your gay? eeew! get away from me, you freak!'.
have you read about the girl wh wasn't allowed to change in her locker room, because they didnt want her to be around naked girls cuz she was gay? as if all we do is look at someone and fall in love?
we cant just ask anyone to dance. you can ask people out in a snap, but we have to wait such a long time until someone is brave enough to admitt they're gay, and then we can ask.
and then we'll dance together, and it'll be all over school. you cant do one little thing unless everyone else already knows. I need to ask everyone if they have anything against gay people, just in case. i have a sixth grader friend, who, when i told her about my two aunts, she looked at me in disgust, like, how could someone do that?
It keeps getting more and more confusing. I met a guy at a contest last week and got his number. I know I'm gay, but he just makes it all the more confusing. what if in high school a guy asks me on a date? should i say yes, and then years later tell him im gay? should i say no, and leave him to think i hate him? should i tell him im gay, with the all to big chance he'd spread it around school, and the haters will torment me every day until graduation? will I ever go to slepovers and have my friends show me pictures of hot guys and ask me what I think? I can't do that. even if they didnt mind, do you know how awkward it would feel to show them pictures of grls and ask them what they think? to introduce my friends to my new girlfriend? to listen to them talking about how sexy their guy is, how manly and sweet, and wishing i could meet someone like that, if only I actually had a friend who was gay like me? and then everyone assumes that your not gay.
phrases like 'oh, that is so gay' or, 'oh, he looks so gay in that shirt!'
songs that always talk about guys and girls. never guys and guys or girls and girls.
_____________________________________________________________________

peaceful warrior, if you really want to walk in my shoes, read that over at least twice. because I think about most of that every single day.
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« Reply #79 on: April 09, 2003, 18:39:18 »



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PeacefulWarrior
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« Reply #80 on: April 09, 2003, 19:15:56 »

Hey, thanks for all the comments everyone.  I realize that I, like many others, have been getting a little worked up over this...but I am beginning to calm down a bit and realize that this is all positive.

First of all, Timeless, nothing you haave said has "enraged" me as you say...I just got a little upset with the way I was attacked by some of the others.  I think it's really funny how people are judging me by saying I am too judgemental, I mean think about that for a second![Cheesy]

Now, someone asked, "Oh, ok...tell me where the gene is that makes a man like a woman and vice-versa?"  What a question!  I had to laugh...I mean, anyone who knows anything about X and Y chromosomes knows the answer to this one.  Furthermore, and this isn't something I thought I would have to share with adults in here, but here it goes: a man is born with male sex organs and a woman with female ones.  Men and women are inherintly different because their bodies are made to come together in unity to produce offspring.

Some of the real, underlying set of beliefs that I hold dear which make me believe that homosexuality is contrary to the plans and designs of God is this:

1) We all lived as spirits before we came here (in a state of duality, etc but I won't get into all of that)

2) We came "down" here to earth in order to a) obtain physical, mortal bodies b) to experience duality, ie. right/wrong, dark/light, good/evil, sweet/bitter, etc. etc.  There are many lessons we are to learn here in life.

3) One of the most vital parts to this design is for more spirits to continue to come down and expereince mortality, like we are...  By producing offspring (multiply and replenish the earth and all the fun stuff) more spirits can come down.  I really believe that the negative spirits, those who chose not to recieve mortal bodies, "negs" or whatever you want to call them, are constantly trying to thwart this plan because the plan is to return back with the knowledge we gain in order to become more and more like God until we too are perfect.

Marriage and family, even eternal family units, are the center of the plan.

When a man and a woman learn to live in peace and harmony and come together and are complete, it's like the ying-yang coming together, two very differnt parts and it alomst overcomes the sense of duality that pervades this life and it creates.  In the next life I think that a similar process will take place spiritually...and I don't pretend to understand it all, but I do know that this life is a pattern and a reflection, albeit on a lower level, of things much higer and more glorious.

Not everyone born into mortality is born with the physical characteristics or mental capacity to fulfuill these things, and that is FINE!  God knows all and he is the only perfect judge.  People are born into this life in very different physical, mental and cultural circumstances and all of these things are for their good, in the long run.  

Someone BORN with homosexual feelings is not evil and believe that is a unique and, for me, an unimaginable challenge. I don't pretend to judge them in any kind of harsh or critical way.  But, I think there are many other ways people begin to develop these feelings...whether because of something someone did to them, because they experimented, etc.  I don't think these are good things and, in fact, I think they thwart the wonderful plan that keeps brining new life and new spirits into this world.

So, now, to answer EnderWiggins question about LOVE and why I thinhk heterosexual love is "superior", well, I guess I shouldn't have used that word.  "Different" might be a better word, but I still believe that the natural love that has the power to bring about new life and start a family unit, the most influential and powerful organizational unit in the world, is a kind of love unparalleled by any other.

In schools we see children who have all kinds of difficulties and those often tend to be children who don't have both a loving father and mother at home.  My parents didn't have both of their parents at home and life was more difficult for them.  Even if you do have both parents at home and they don't have true love for one another and for their children it doesn't work.

Now, I am positive that there are homosexual couples who have adopted children who have more love in their relationship and for their children that some heterosexuals, but I am not talking about that.  I am talking about a mother and father who really love one another and their children and strive to gorw spiritually.  I think that is an unrivaled organization and it is the way God designed it to be...it's apparent by our bodies and the fact that children inherintly want a mommy and a daddy.
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« Reply #81 on: April 09, 2003, 19:24:32 »

thanks! but i had to laugh, you realize how many people would laugh if you told them im level headed! [Cheesy] im not level headed. i have common sense, but i am carazey. (crazy w/ an accent)  yup.

huggie! [Smiley]
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Spirit_Gurl
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« Reply #82 on: April 09, 2003, 19:27:21 »

the way god designed it to be? how do you know that? i dont believe he designed anything, i think he created life and let it take its own course. besides that how do you know there are only 2 genders in the whole universe i mean on the planet Zigzoom, there could be 3 or 4 genders you dont really know!


have you walked in my shoes yet, peaceful warrior!?!?
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Spirit_Gurl
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« Reply #83 on: April 09, 2003, 19:37:06 »

usually. im the exeption. but for me its no big deal. all my friends say their thoughts. i have a best friend who writes the most amazing stories.... her last name is sarmiento. if you see it in a bookstand somewhere, dont be surprised. [Smiley]  
besides i talk alot. ever scince i was little id repeat myself over and over to make absolutely sure that this person knew exactly what i was talking about, so thered be no misunderstanding. must've been a real grump back then... [Smiley]


so, peaceful warrior, how's it feel to be gay?
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PeacefulWarrior
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« Reply #84 on: April 09, 2003, 19:43:16 »

"i think he created life and let it take its own course"

SpiritGurl- this take on life really helps me understand where you are coming from.

How do I know this is the way it is?  I asked God.  We can all tak to God, we just have to open our hearts and minds and He talks to us.

-----------------
Hey, thanks for all the comments everyone. I realize that I, like many others, have been getting a little worked up over this...but I am beginning to calm down a bit and realize that this is all positive.

First of all, Timeless, nothing you haave said has "enraged" me as you say...I just got a little upset with the way I was attacked by some of the others. I think it's really funny how people are judging me by saying I am too judgemental, I mean think about that for a second!

Now, someone asked, "Oh, ok...tell me where the gene is that makes a man like a woman and vice-versa?" What a question! I had to laugh...I mean, anyone who knows anything about X and Y chromosomes knows the answer to this one. Furthermore, and this isn't something I thought I would have to share with adults in here, but here it goes: a man is born with male sex organs and a woman with female ones. Men and women are inherintly different because their bodies are made to come together in unity to produce offspring.

Some of the real, underlying set of beliefs that I hold dear which make me believe that homosexuality is contrary to the plans and designs of God is this:

1) We all lived as spirits before we came here (in a state of duality, etc but I won't get into all of that)

2) We came "down" here to earth in order to a) obtain physical, mortal bodies b) to experience duality, ie. right/wrong, dark/light, good/evil, sweet/bitter, etc. etc. There are many lessons we are to learn here in life.

3) One of the most vital parts to this design is for more spirits to continue to come down and expereince mortality, like we are... By producing offspring (multiply and replenish the earth and all the fun stuff) more spirits can come down. I really believe that the negative spirits, those who chose not to recieve mortal bodies, "negs" or whatever you want to call them, are constantly trying to thwart this plan because the plan is to return back with the knowledge we gain in order to become more and more like God until we too are perfect.

Marriage and family, even eternal family units, are the center of the plan.
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We shall not cease from our exploration, and at the end of all our exploring, we shall arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.
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« Reply #85 on: April 09, 2003, 19:46:42 »

well? have you read anything i just said? go ahead. walk in my shoes. you said you weanted to, so do it. how's it feel, huh?
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« Reply #86 on: April 09, 2003, 21:31:00 »

the bible says alot of things. the bible says that APs are basically sin. why is it okay to say somethings of the bible are wrong, but other things aren't?
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« Reply #87 on: April 09, 2003, 22:02:37 »

I have to admit I skipped most of the thread but I still have to say a few words. NOW who's realy surprised?

My view of the bible is, while extremely selective due to it being translated by HUMANS for PARTICULAR times and particular PURPOSES quote simple.
According to the bible, Moses came down from the mountain witha selection of direct communications from god. Among these are "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself and god abo all else" (translation from the Finnish text by yours  truly).
There are NO interpretation, non exceptions and no special cases. Simply put: Don't kill, aand love the people around you.
Anything and everything above that is there because of us people doing the copying and translating and teaching.
Common sense tells us to take care of the people around because there may (and in al likelihood will) be a time when we depend on them to take care of us.
So all this talk about people being heterosexual/homosexual/bisexual is just so much hot air and orinally meant to make someone feel good about themselves.
Basically it's useless to make the distinction. If the future of mankind was dependent upon us procreating inthe optimal manner things might be different but as it is we're f***ing up the world quite nicely with the current population.

To recap my views of the world: We are souls incarnate. Souls do not have gender as we know it so any reflection of that in the physical is an illusion just like almost everything else. Be what you are to the fullest and let others do the same and things are all cozy and warm.

2cents & L&L
jouni
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goingslow
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« Reply #88 on: April 09, 2003, 23:52:01 »

quote:

Now, someone asked, "Oh, ok...tell me where the gene is that makes a man like a woman and vice-versa?"  What a question!  I had to laugh...I mean, anyone who knows anything about X and Y chromosomes knows the answer to this one.  Furthermore, and this isn't something I thought I would have to share with adults in here, but here it goes: a man is born with male sex organs and a woman with female ones.  Men and women are inherintly different because their bodies are made to come together in unity to produce offspring.




I realize you think you're very intelligent but if this was referring to my comment I thought it was obvious in the context what I was talking about.

I said "is it a gene that makes a man like a woman" meaning love.. meaning want to have sex with.  I noticed he kept the comparasons to wanting to have sex with children or rub up against leather.  I was curious why he didnt ask the obvoius comparason.  Is it a gene that makes a man chose to be with a woman.

After i realized you were spouting dogma instead of thinking for yourself this conversation ended for me.  I assumed were you using your own logic not spouting someone elses.

I dont discuss religious matters or things which are taught believed blindly.  

I do find it interesting you started the topic with "hey me and my wife happened to be discussing homosexuality" this is obviously a cause and you snuck it in.  

Good luck becoming a good christian and all that.  

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« Reply #89 on: April 10, 2003, 00:33:17 »

"Speak with reason, treat others with courtesy, move others with emotion,  and act with result." -Ou Wen Wei

He also says to be kind and benevolent and also be frank and friendly to others around us.

That's all we need to know.

When you say or do something, ask yourself- Is it kind? Is it courteous? Is there a reason for it? Should it be acted upon?
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« Reply #90 on: April 10, 2003, 00:47:01 »

Peaceful Warrior, have you read my question yet? I still do not feel it is answered. You seem to be dancing around it. I feel that Jilola is right. We are genderless in soul/spirit. That's how I see it, anyway. Maybe gay people are here to experience being gay for a reason. Perhaps in some way, some of them are more spiritually advanced, and are put forth to experience this in order to learn something extremely crucial. Remember that there is a reason for everything. There is NOTHING for no reason. Good luck in your quest.

No one can tell us the truth. We have to find it for ourselves. I think arguing about this is sort of pointless. Nobody can change my opinion and I cannot change the opinion of others. If that is why people are arguing, then it is pointless. Being gay is not wrong. This I KNOW to be true.
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seekenergyaz
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« Reply #91 on: April 10, 2003, 02:17:28 »

Hi

Hmm, should we bring up that XX male thing?  There is such a thing, although I think it is rare.  They can only produce girls and other XX males.  Doesn't really have anything to do with homosexuality per se though, as what I read never mentioned any greater likelihood with them as compared to the general population.

How many heterosexuals do you know who describe waking up one morning and having to choose whether or not he was going to be attracted to members of the opposite sex?  It just happened that way and was taken for granted that it would right?

It is hard for me to fathom how anyone could automatically find himself attracted to the opposite sex, then just decide to throw that out and change to being homosexually oriented (the old "you chose to be that way" thing).  Yet that is so often implied as what happens, often by religio-political commentators, but often by others as well.  That position is absurd.  Maybe, just maybe, the attraction to the opposite sex isn't that automatic for everyone.  Maybe it worked that way for the commentators and all their friends (that they know of), but maybe it didn't and doesn't work that way for everyone.  So how could they possibly understand, since they can simply take the majority experience for granted, and have nothing like it in their own experience to compare it to?

A few commentators are at leasthonest enough to admit that they don't know what the cause is.  Some will admit that nobody "chose" this orientation.  They may then go on to say that it is still forbidden to act on it and that some people just have to suffer in life and that's just too bad for them.  Rough maybe, but at least they're being honest with both the facts and their beliefs (sometimes they do add some comfort with that, such as how God will reward them later for suffering cheerfully, or something along that line).  

On another note, if it is said that some people come to this earth patently unable to reproduce, and it is argued that "in their case" their purpose is for whatever reason different than reproducing more children, then it seems a similar argument could at least be possible to make for orientation issues as well, one size already not fitting all.

PeacefulWarrior, maybe you'd be better off by this point simply to say that a book that you put faith in to your dying breath says that it is forbidden, and that is that.  In the end, you most likely consider no other reason to be necessary anyway.  We all know you have a right to hue to it.  But your other arguments separate from that seem to be going the way of the one alluded to above.
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« Reply #92 on: April 10, 2003, 03:40:53 »

Plus you're obviously not reading anyone's posts.  Just skimming through and picking up things here and there.

If you ever get to the point you can think for yourself you might reconsider all this.

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« Reply #93 on: April 10, 2003, 05:02:52 »

I guess the main idea some of you are getting across is that if I don't believe homosexuality is ok then I am 1) An insincere and judgemental person and 2) I don't really understand love and sprituality.  
I, on the other hand, allow you to disagree and don't think: 1) that you are evil 2) that you are going to hell and 3) that homosexuals are evil, sick people


---------------
Ender:  Hey.  Ok, I'll try to answer your question here, I am sorry if I didn't get to it: "We are genderless in soul/spirit" you said.  Well, I believe that our spirits reflect who were are in the flesh, and therefore I believe in gendered beings.  I am a believer in duality-opposition in all things.  Light/dark, etc etc.  I think the universe is one huge ying yang...that's a very simple and gross way of explaining something that's, well, uh, HUGE to say the least.  Therefore, I believe in male and female.  Is it always this cut and dry in this mortal life, no...and that's what this thread is all about.  Are you evil if you are not attracted to a man if you are a woman?  NO.  But I do think that things were designed for a particular prupose...

GoingSlow wrote "After i realized you were spouting dogma instead of thinking for yourself this conversation ended for me. I assumed were you using your own logic not spouting someone elses."  
     Well, I don't know why you are so sure that I am not thinking for myself.  You seem to know exactly what I am thinking and exactly how I feel.  Can you tell me how to do this?Huh For what it's worth to you, I have given this topic a lot of thought, in fact I really am not someone who blindly accepts things.  I know it is very difficult to really get to know someone in forums like this, but those people who know me well probably get a little perturbed by the fact that I analyze everything and study it out in my mind and my heart before I come to conclusions.  I didn't just wake up one day and decide, "Oh, I am going to believe _____ because _____ said it!"

You also wrote:
"Plus you're obviously not reading anyone's posts. Just skimming through and picking up things here and there."
   Talk about judging people?[V]  How would you know what I am reading or not?  I have tried to read everyone's ideas.  If I havent' responded in the way you like to every idea, I am sorry...but some things I really don't feel like responding too for a number of reasons.'

Finally, you said that as far as your concerned "this conversation is over", I am sorry you feel that way...so frustrated and upset, please don't!  I don't want to anger you or make you made.  It's about understanding one another, isn't that what you are trying to get me to do?

I also don't know why everyone keeps bringing up the Bible so much.  Yes, I believe the Bible is a revealed work, but I also believe that it has been translated badly and in fact contains some huge errors, some of which came about because of mistakes and other things were twisted on purpose by indivuals who wanted to use it to control others...and in fact the book, in my opinion, is still used to control others for evil or otherwise negative ways.

Everything I have said I believe not because I was told, but because it makes sense to me logically and in my spirit.

I also love everyone, even the jerk who cut me off in my car today![Cheesy]
I don't care if you are gay or not.  In fact I don't even think about the issue a whole lot unless I see people forcing it down other people's throats, and last quarter in one of my classes I did have that happen.  I don't go around forcing my opinions down other peoples throats...you know?

Anyway, I think this conversation is great.  I really hope those of you who adamantly oppose the way I feel about this issue won't diregard everything I say in the future![Wink]



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We shall not cease from our exploration, and at the end of all our exploring, we shall arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.
T.S. Elliot
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fides quaerens intellectum
Anonymous
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« Reply #94 on: April 10, 2003, 05:38:56 »

Thanks for answering my question. I felt quite ignored on this topic in general. I hope you don't feel that I have forced my opinion down your throat (or tried to). I understand how you feel about the gendered beings. However I had a dream I was a girl once, which makes me wonder. It was weird. I wonder if being out of the body will prove whether we are gendered or not. I have yet to experience it though I seem to be developing second sight.
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seekenergyaz
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« Reply #95 on: April 10, 2003, 15:35:36 »

Hi

I don't see a problem with letting norms you were raised with go into your writing as well.  It is a part of who you are.  I haven't been convinced by a lot of the arguments, but that is another thing.

It is hard to be dispassionate about a subject like this, especially when it has a big impact on one's own life.

It is also a lightening rod for others too though.  Just look at any of the usenet forums with the word "Christian" in them and you will see that.  Very little else gets the kind of response in those forums than the subject of "homosexuals" or "gays" will get.  It's like a big bandwagon.  It became a hot one here too, but it has been mostly the same few people going back and forth since after the first several.

I think it's a collective consciousness thing.  The greater number of people who touch it or are touched by itjust keep adding more and more energy to it, and it keeps getting discharged in various, often destructive ways.  That's one reason why I think that if the gay activists were wise they would force themselves to be a little more dispassionate, which might change the mode of some of their activity.  Likewise those who disapprove of it.  Maybe then both might meet some liveable truce in the matter.  

Strong emotion usually has the qualities of NOT being high on reasoning but being VERY high in energy; and "stuff" is affected by it.  Uncontrolled (or controlled by the wrong hands)it can be a dangerous combination.

I wish well for all in the endeavor of getting a handle on that.  It is difficult.
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goingslow
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« Reply #96 on: April 10, 2003, 15:58:45 »

Become dispassionate or pretend to.  Im sure if most of us are just arguing an intellectual point its easy to say that.  If homophobia wasn't something we are all born into I could even agree.  It almost sounds like if they're quiet and very calmly try to justify themselves you think they'd be better off.

I think the time has come where Homosexuals should not need to justify their love and choice whenever they're faced with the hatred and dislike of their lifestyle.

I found the tone amusing of that person PW put up.  He though by being passive agressive, pretend to apologize and be empathetic people have no right to be offended.  

When i think of the extremes of homophobia I think of matthew shepherd.  Kids in my very highschool who got beat for acting effeminite and teachers telling them they need to stop acting that way.  Tell a person who has lived with that all their life they should remain dispassionate.. try to state their case and hope someday all these religious zealots will accept them.  

I don't think a heterosexual person who likes discussing this on an intellectual level should tell homosexuals how htey should be handling all the people who hate them.  

I dont understand the brand of love which says "i love everyone" its so christian but its based on only saying you love someone.  I love you and its out of my love I am able to tell you what you need to change.  I love people I really love I dont throw that word around.  I find people who say they love everyone the most often have a really shallow meaning of love.  They mean its their christian duty to love but actually feeling love and saying "i love you" are two very different things.
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Tom
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« Reply #97 on: April 10, 2003, 16:22:16 »

Earlier I was saying that I was taught in school that the categories of sexuality are not absolute, but more like percentages on a single scale. This seems to be correct to me and it avoids placing people into absolute categories. Whether the absolute categories based on sexuality and gender are real or not, though, I want to change directions in thinking.

Suppose I choose to examine my sexuality and gender, reaching a definite conclusion. How should that conclusion affect my interactions with most of the people in my life? And does it affect anything not involving other people?

Any thoughts on complete lack of sexuality and / or gender?
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Spirit_Gurl
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« Reply #98 on: April 10, 2003, 20:01:30 »

peaceful warrior, answer my question. HAVE YOU WALKED IN MY SHOES YET? HOW DOES IT FEEL?
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PeacefulWarrior
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« Reply #99 on: April 10, 2003, 20:15:54 »

"Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes, that way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes." that's the way I look at it!  JK[Smiley]

Well, if the answer to that question is so paramount then answer the same question yourself: Have you walked in my shoes?  How does it feel?

I really don't understand that.  I mean, I know what you are trying to say: don't criticize until you know excatly how I feel.  Well, I am not criticizing you.  I'm really not, I am sharing my opinion. Period.  
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We shall not cease from our exploration, and at the end of all our exploring, we shall arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.
T.S. Elliot
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fides quaerens intellectum
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