----->Homosexuality <------

[Anonymous]

Peaceful Warrior, have you read my question yet? I still do not feel it is answered. You seem to be dancing around it. I feel that Jilola is right. We are genderless in soul/spirit. That's how I see it, anyway. Maybe gay people are here to experience being gay for a reason. Perhaps in some way, some of them are more spiritually advanced, and are put forth to experience this in order to learn something extremely crucial. Remember that there is a reason for everything. There is NOTHING for no reason. Good luck in your quest.

No one can tell us the truth. We have to find it for ourselves. I think arguing about this is sort of pointless. Nobody can change my opinion and I cannot change the opinion of others. If that is why people are arguing, then it is pointless. Being gay is not wrong. This I KNOW to be true.

[seekenergyaz]

Hi

Hmm, should we bring up that XX male thing?  There is such a thing, although I think it is rare.  They can only produce girls and other XX males.  Doesn't really have anything to do with homosexuality per se though, as what I read never mentioned any greater likelihood with them as compared to the general population.

How many heterosexuals do you know who describe waking up one morning and having to choose whether or not he was going to be attracted to members of the opposite sex?  It just happened that way and was taken for granted that it would right?

It is hard for me to fathom how anyone could automatically find himself attracted to the opposite sex, then just decide to throw that out and change to being homosexually oriented (the old "you chose to be that way" thing).  Yet that is so often implied as what happens, often by religio-political commentators, but often by others as well.  That position is absurd.  Maybe, just maybe, the attraction to the opposite sex isn't that automatic for everyone.  Maybe it worked that way for the commentators and all their friends (that they know of), but maybe it didn't and doesn't work that way for everyone.  So how could they possibly understand, since they can simply take the majority experience for granted, and have nothing like it in their own experience to compare it to?

A few commentators are at leasthonest enough to admit that they don't know what the cause is.  Some will admit that nobody "chose" this orientation.  They may then go on to say that it is still forbidden to act on it and that some people just have to suffer in life and that's just too bad for them.  Rough maybe, but at least they're being honest with both the facts and their beliefs (sometimes they do add some comfort with that, such as how God will reward them later for suffering cheerfully, or something along that line).  

On another note, if it is said that some people come to this earth patently unable to reproduce, and it is argued that "in their case" their purpose is for whatever reason different than reproducing more children, then it seems a similar argument could at least be possible to make for orientation issues as well, one size already not fitting all.

PeacefulWarrior, maybe you'd be better off by this point simply to say that a book that you put faith in to your dying breath says that it is forbidden, and that is that.  In the end, you most likely consider no other reason to be necessary anyway.  We all know you have a right to hue to it.  But your other arguments separate from that seem to be going the way of the one alluded to above.

[goingslow]

Plus you're obviously not reading anyone's posts.  Just skimming through and picking up things here and there.

If you ever get to the point you can think for yourself you might reconsider all this.

[PeacefulWarrior]

I guess the main idea some of you are getting across is that if I don't believe homosexuality is ok then I am 1) An insincere and judgemental person and 2) I don't really understand love and sprituality.  
I, on the other hand, allow you to disagree and don't think: 1) that you are evil 2) that you are going to hell and 3) that homosexuals are evil, sick people

---------------
Ender:  Hey.  Ok, I'll try to answer your question here, I am sorry if I didn't get to it: "We are genderless in soul/spirit" you said.  Well, I believe that our spirits reflect who were are in the flesh, and therefore I believe in gendered beings.  I am a believer in duality-opposition in all things.  Light/dark, etc etc.  I think the universe is one huge ying yang...that's a very simple and gross way of explaining something that's, well, uh, HUGE to say the least.  Therefore, I believe in male and female.  Is it always this cut and dry in this mortal life, no...and that's what this thread is all about.  Are you evil if you are not attracted to a man if you are a woman?  NO.  But I do think that things were designed for a particular prupose...

GoingSlow wrote "After i realized you were spouting dogma instead of thinking for yourself this conversation ended for me. I assumed were you using your own logic not spouting someone elses."  
     Well, I don't know why you are so sure that I am not thinking for myself.  You seem to know exactly what I am thinking and exactly how I feel.  Can you tell me how to do this? For what it's worth to you, I have given this topic a lot of thought, in fact I really am not someone who blindly accepts things.  I know it is very difficult to really get to know someone in forums like this, but those people who know me well probably get a little perturbed by the fact that I analyze everything and study it out in my mind and my heart before I come to conclusions.  I didn't just wake up one day and decide, "Oh, I am going to believe _____ because _____ said it!"

You also wrote:
"Plus you're obviously not reading anyone's posts. Just skimming through and picking up things here and there."
   Talk about judging people?[V]  How would you know what I am reading or not?  I have tried to read everyone's ideas.  If I havent' responded in the way you like to every idea, I am sorry...but some things I really don't feel like responding too for a number of reasons.'

Finally, you said that as far as your concerned "this conversation is over", I am sorry you feel that way...so frustrated and upset, please don't!  I don't want to anger you or make you made.  It's about understanding one another, isn't that what you are trying to get me to do?

I also don't know why everyone keeps bringing up the Bible so much.  Yes, I believe the Bible is a revealed work, but I also believe that it has been translated badly and in fact contains some huge errors, some of which came about because of mistakes and other things were twisted on purpose by indivuals who wanted to use it to control others...and in fact the book, in my opinion, is still used to control others for evil or otherwise negative ways.

Everything I have said I believe not because I was told, but because it makes sense to me logically and in my spirit.

I also love everyone, even the jerk who cut me off in my car today![]
I don't care if you are gay or not.  In fact I don't even think about the issue a whole lot unless I see people forcing it down other people's throats, and last quarter in one of my classes I did have that happen.  I don't go around forcing my opinions down other peoples throats...you know?

Anyway, I think this conversation is great.  I really hope those of you who adamantly oppose the way I feel about this issue won't diregard everything I say in the future![]

[Anonymous]

Thanks for answering my question. I felt quite ignored on this topic in general. I hope you don't feel that I have forced my opinion down your throat (or tried to). I understand how you feel about the gendered beings. However I had a dream I was a girl once, which makes me wonder. It was weird. I wonder if being out of the body will prove whether we are gendered or not. I have yet to experience it though I seem to be developing second sight.

[seekenergyaz]

Hi

I don't see a problem with letting norms you were raised with go into your writing as well.  It is a part of who you are.  I haven't been convinced by a lot of the arguments, but that is another thing.

It is hard to be dispassionate about a subject like this, especially when it has a big impact on one's own life.

It is also a lightening rod for others too though.  Just look at any of the usenet forums with the word "Christian" in them and you will see that.  Very little else gets the kind of response in those forums than the subject of "homosexuals" or "gays" will get.  It's like a big bandwagon.  It became a hot one here too, but it has been mostly the same few people going back and forth since after the first several.

I think it's a collective consciousness thing.  The greater number of people who touch it or are touched by itjust keep adding more and more energy to it, and it keeps getting discharged in various, often destructive ways.  That's one reason why I think that if the gay activists were wise they would force themselves to be a little more dispassionate, which might change the mode of some of their activity.  Likewise those who disapprove of it.  Maybe then both might meet some liveable truce in the matter.  

Strong emotion usually has the qualities of NOT being high on reasoning but being VERY high in energy; and "stuff" is affected by it.  Uncontrolled (or controlled by the wrong hands)it can be a dangerous combination.

I wish well for all in the endeavor of getting a handle on that.  It is difficult.

[goingslow]

Become dispassionate or pretend to.  Im sure if most of us are just arguing an intellectual point its easy to say that.  If homophobia wasn't something we are all born into I could even agree.  It almost sounds like if they're quiet and very calmly try to justify themselves you think they'd be better off.

I think the time has come where Homosexuals should not need to justify their love and choice whenever they're faced with the hatred and dislike of their lifestyle.

I found the tone amusing of that person PW put up.  He though by being passive agressive, pretend to apologize and be empathetic people have no right to be offended.  

When i think of the extremes of homophobia I think of matthew shepherd.  Kids in my very highschool who got beat for acting effeminite and teachers telling them they need to stop acting that way.  Tell a person who has lived with that all their life they should remain dispassionate.. try to state their case and hope someday all these religious zealots will accept them.  

I don't think a heterosexual person who likes discussing this on an intellectual level should tell homosexuals how htey should be handling all the people who hate them.  

I dont understand the brand of love which says "i love everyone" its so christian but its based on only saying you love someone.  I love you and its out of my love I am able to tell you what you need to change.  I love people I really love I dont throw that word around.  I find people who say they love everyone the most often have a really shallow meaning of love.  They mean its their christian duty to love but actually feeling love and saying "i love you" are two very different things.

[Tom]

Earlier I was saying that I was taught in school that the categories of sexuality are not absolute, but more like percentages on a single scale. This seems to be correct to me and it avoids placing people into absolute categories. Whether the absolute categories based on sexuality and gender are real or not, though, I want to change directions in thinking.

Suppose I choose to examine my sexuality and gender, reaching a definite conclusion. How should that conclusion affect my interactions with most of the people in my life? And does it affect anything not involving other people?

Any thoughts on complete lack of sexuality and / or gender?

[Spirit_Gurl]

peaceful warrior, answer my question. HAVE YOU WALKED IN MY SHOES YET? HOW DOES IT FEEL?

[PeacefulWarrior]

"Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes, that way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes." that's the way I look at it!  JK[]

Well, if the answer to that question is so paramount then answer the same question yourself: Have you walked in my shoes?  How does it feel?

I really don't understand that.  I mean, I know what you are trying to say: don't criticize until you know excatly how I feel.  Well, I am not criticizing you.  I'm really not, I am sharing my opinion. Period.  

[Tom]

By an absence of sexuality I mean for physical or emotional or both types of reasons, it never developed. Low hormone levels or physical damage. Maybe something genetic. No sexuality early in life and no puberty. However it can happen that does not matter. What sorts of consequences do you think there would be from an absence of any type of sexuality?

[Spirit_Gurl]

nothing much. still live a normal life, just wont wanna have sex w/ anyone. no big whoop.

[Anonymous]

I think a lack of sexual desire would be cool to have. It would solve many man-woman relationship problems.

You know the old saying- men are from Mars, women are from Venus. Well I think homosexuals have an advantage here. They don't have to worry about what it's like to be the opposite sex. Their partner is the same sex as them so they already know what it's like to be the sex of their partner. There are not so many misinterpretations and such.

Either way, sometimes I wish I didn't have a sex drive. It would enable me to get along better with the opposite sex because I wouldn't be worried about screwing up a possible intimate relationship. I don't even have a desire for one right now. But still, it seems whenever I'm attracted to a woman she is harder for me to talk to. Maybe I'm attracted to the wrong type of people.

[seekenergyaz]

quote:Originally posted by goingslow

Become dispassionate or pretend to.  Im sure if most of us are just arguing an intellectual point its easy to say that.  If homophobia wasn't something we are all born into I could even agree.  It almost sounds like if they're quiet and very calmly try to justify themselves you think they'd be better off.

I think the time has come where Homosexuals should not need to justify their love and choice whenever they're faced with the hatred and dislike of their lifestyle.

I found the tone amusing of that person PW put up.  He though by being passive agressive, pretend to apologize and be empathetic people have no right to be offended.  

When i think of the extremes of homophobia I think of matthew shepherd.  Kids in my very highschool who got beat for acting effeminite and teachers telling them they need to stop acting that way.  Tell a person who has lived with that all their life they should remain dispassionate.. try to state their case and hope someday all these religious zealots will accept them.  

I don't think a heterosexual person who likes discussing this on an intellectual level should tell homosexuals how htey should be handling all the people who hate them.  

I dont understand the brand of love which says "i love everyone" its so christian but its based on only saying you love someone.  I love you and its out of my love I am able to tell you what you need to change.  I love people I really love I dont throw that word around.  I find people who say they love everyone the most often have a really shallow meaning of love.  They mean its their christian duty to love but actually feeling love and saying "i love you" are two very different things.

Who said anything about need to justify anything?  Please don't put words in my mouth.  

I was speaking from the point of view of consciousness, the collective consciousness, and how the kind and amounts of energy we put into that system affect things, sometimes in unintended ways.

Don't mistake what I said for a bunch of moralistic musts and shoulds.  It isn't about what people have a right to do.  It is about what I think might be wiser from the standpoint of the above.

As an example for the need for emotional control, an everyday, not especially "ethereal" one: I'm sure we've all been in situations where even we had a right to express great anger for wrong that somebody has done to us, but have realized that if we start screaming and hollering and carrying on, then those we hope to seek recourse from will just think we're nuts, and that WE are the problem, not the one who did the wrong.  Who hasn't learned a lesson like that right in the midst of the peer groups we grew up with?  

Now yes, we make our complaint, honestly and with SOME emotion, but it is emotion measured with care.  (Timing is often a part of it too, sometimes we jump on it right away, other times we wait.)  If the one who wronged us wants to play more games, he or she will try to push our buttons and get the unbridled emotion out of us (Why would he do that?  Because it seems to be to his advantage perhaps?  Because he knows it will make us look bad in front of the rest?)  Now, we had the RIGHT to be hopping mad and show it, but we knew that wisdom was better expressed in another way.

Whenever we've failed to do what I just described, how often have things turned out well?  Not often in my own sometimes bitter experience.

Lest you miss this point: YES, emotional control is very DIFFICULT.  But that doesn't mean that it isn't wise.

Another thing that I should mention, as I may have seemed to imply the wrong thing, is that I am not advocating having no passion in things, just control of that passion, and I apologise if I gave the wrong idea there.

What makes you so sure that I'm heterosexually inclined?  Maybe I've just been coy up until now.  After all, whose business is it which I am?

[PeacefulWarrior]

I know this is a touchy subject, at least for some, but I think it needs to be discussed, especially at a time when many things are being questioned by society and the world at large.

Last week, my wife and I were discussing homosexuality.  As a nurse she is required to take a number of gender courses and therefore has heard a lot of different opinions, both scientific and religous, regarding homosexuality.  I myself know a number of gay people, almost all of whom I respect.

Today while I was walking on campus I was thinking about the various topics which have been discussed in this forum and realized that gender, and specifically homosexuality, has not been discussed...at least not that I am aware of.

I wonder what you, my friends, think about this.

I don't want to share my thoughts and opinions quite yet, but I do want to pose some questions:
[?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?]
1.  How do you feel about homosexuality in general?  Do you think homosexuality is wrong?
2.  If not, do you think gays need to adavnce their agenda?
3.  Do you know anyone who is gay (the chances are high that you do).
4.  Spiritually and naturally, how does it fit in?
5.  Are people born gay?
6.  Can gay people change?
7.  How is sexual abuse tied into homosexuality (or is it??)
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I hope this discussion can be informative and respectful.  I, myself, have strong opinions about this topic as well as some unanswered questions, so I hope to learn more about homosexuality.

-Dan