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Author Topic: parents spoke in tongues...  (Read 2006 times)
kakkarot
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« on: April 04, 2003, 01:38:39 »

well, to give you the skeptical side of my response first, i've been to a "liberal" type church who had this thing going on after sevices where the "priest" was getting people to "talk in tounges" and some of the people were falling backwards and becoming "paralyzed". i thought, "hey why not?" so i asked if he could do that to me. he said sure.

so he got me to close my eyes and he put his hand on my forehead and told me to say what he said. then he began talking complete jibberish. not some real language, just a whole bunch of garbage that came off the top of his head. so i tried repeating that at the rate he was going at, but i had to keep stopping because i couldn't make out what he was saying so i couldn't repeat it. but then he told me that i wasn't supposed to be saying what he was saying, but that i was supposed to just start talking (ie, spouting crap off). so i did.

next thing i know he's (lightly) pushing on my forehead, tilting me backwards. in my mind i was like "woah. don't wanna fall and break my neck." so i pushed back against it, at which time he told me not to. but i didn't listen to him.

so needless to say, i really wasn't impressed with him.

but other than the frauds and morons out there, speaking in tounges is something that happens, just not very often. or at least not very often (partly) due to the fact that people dismiss it as "just plain crazy" a lot.

what it means, i don't know. any more info, sorry i don't know much about it. the original speaking in tounges, though, was done in such a way that when the apostles spoke, each bystander who heard the apostles heard what the apostles were saying in their (the bystander's) native language; so many people of many different languages all understood what was being said, even though it was never translated into each "tounge" specifically.

~kakkarot
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Adrian
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« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2003, 16:22:03 »

Greetings,

This is usually associated with past lives - specifically, under certain circumstances, e.g. stress, trance etc., the subject regresses to a past life in another part of the world.

This happens alot with young children (under 5 years of age), who are still very much in touch with their higher selves and the higher/inner spheres. Many children have suddenly started to speak languages and dialects that have been extinct and forgotten for hundreds of years, and in totally different parts of the world.

With best regards,

Adrian.
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« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2003, 17:05:37 »

Speaking in tongues
Are tongues the initial evidence of baptism in the Holy Spirit?
Evidences pointing to tongues being the initial evidence
Tongues were obviously significantly associated with the Holy Spirit's initializing of the believer into the new covenant of Christ, as illustrated at Pentecost (Acts 2) and in Cornelius’ home (Acts 10), and also probably in Samaria (Acts Cool and Ephesus (Acts 19).

(Acts 2:4 NIV)  All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

(Acts 10:45-46 NIV)  The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. {46} For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,

(Acts 19:6 NIV)  When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

(Acts 8:17-18 NIV)  Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. {18} When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money

The passage above does not mention tongues. However, it is probable that tongues or at least some kind of visible evidence is involved. This is because the passage says that Simon “saw” that the Spirit was given.

Evidences pointing to tongues not being the initial evidence
OT instances of filling by the Holy Spirit not accompanied by tongues
The experience of receiving the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was not a new experience. It is the start of a new era in which the Spirit will be poured out more abundantly on all flesh. Peter explains that it is fulfillment of the prophesy in Joel which says that the Spirit will be poured on all people, young and old, men and women, even servants. In the Old Testament, this was not the case. The Spirit fell on key persons, empowering them to carry out the special office of God e.g. kings, prophets.

(Acts 2:17-18 NIV)  "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. {18} Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

In the past, only a few selected ones are filled with the Spirit and empowered for certain tasks. While these people of the OT times were filled and empowered by the Spirit, there was no evidence of tongues.

Charismatics response

Tongues are the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit only in the New Testament period.

No evidence of Paul speaking in tongues when he first received the Holy Spirit
(Acts 9:17-19 NIV)  Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord--Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here--has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." {18} Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, {19} and after taking some food, he regained his strength. Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus.

Paul later spoke in tongues (1 Cor 14:18) but that was not the initial evidence; it was the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Why did Paul not speak in tongues when he first received the Holy Spirit? It could be because there was no need for it. Tongues serve as a sign. In the instances when the people spoke in tongues, it either served as a sign to non-believers (Acts 2) or to other believers that the ones who spoke in tongues really received the Holy Spirit and were part of them.

Tongues are described as a gift
We know that in the Corinthian church not everyone speaks in tongues.

(1 Cor 12:29-30 NIV)  Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? {30} Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues ? Do all interpret?

The reason why some do not speak in tongues was not because some were not baptized in the Holy Spirit but rather some were not given that gift by the Spirit.

(1 Cor 12:4-11 NIV)  There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. {5} There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. {6} There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. {7} Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. {8} To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, {9} to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, {10} to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. {11} All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Furthermore, it is the Spirit’s choice to give whomsoever He wants the ability to speak in tongues. There is no mention whatsoever of speaking in tongues being an inevitable outcome of having been baptized by the Holy Spirit.

Are tongues always human languages?
There are many instances when tongues are real languages that man can understand.

(Acts 2:4-6 NIV)  All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. {5} Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. {6} When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.

(Acts 10:45-46 NIV)  The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. {46} For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

The fact that the Apostles understood the Gentiles tongues to be magnifying God indicated that the tongues were a know language to the Apostles.

However, there are also tongues that are not human languages.

(1 Cor 13:1 NIV)  If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

There are tongues of angels that man will not be able to understand.

(1 Cor 14:2 NIV)  For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

Different purposes of tongues
The argument between Charismatics and non-Charismatics on what is the purpose of tongues can be simply solved if one realizes that there are more than one purpose of tongues.

Act as a sign to unbelievers
(1 Cor 14:21-22 NIV)  In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord. {22} Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers…

Tongues are a sign to unbelievers because when they hear the message proclaimed in their own tongues by someone who does not speak that language, it is a miraculous sign that it is God speaking through them.

(Acts 2:6-11 NIV)  When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. {7} Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? {8} Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? {9} Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, {10} Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome {11} (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!"

(Acts 10:45-46 NIV)  The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. {46} For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

God also used tongues to convince unbelieving Christian Jews that the Gentiles could receive the Holy Spirit, and that they ought to be welcomed as equals into the Church. Without tongues, the apostles would not have been convinced that the Gentiles could be saved.

When tongues are used for this purpose, it is very specific. That means that there may be long periods of time when this type of tongues cease to exist.

Acts 11:15. "As I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning."

The outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Cornelius' house occurred eight years after Pentecost, yet Peter could not point to any continuous flow of tongues for this purpose among the churches, when he explained to the Jerusalem church leaders what had happened to the Gentiles. After eight years, Peter still had to say "As on us at the beginning", not "as on all the churches regularly". If speaking in tongues in a known language was a normal experience in churches, Peter would not have had to reach back to Pentecost to cite a similar example.

Edifying of oneself
Besides serving as “signs”, there are other purposes of tongues that do not involve “signs to unbelievers”.

Paul refers to the Christians speaking in tongues without interpretation in a church. Because the tongues are unknown, they do not communicate anything to people and do not serve as signs.

(1 Cor 14:2 NIV)  For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

The purpose of this type of tongues is not to serve as signs but rather to edify the speaker.

(1 Cor 14:4 NIV)  He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

 

Edifying of the church
Tongues that are accompanies by interpretation edifies the church.

(1 Cor 14:5 NIV)  I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
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James S
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« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2003, 23:33:47 »

Sublime,
to the point of your question, I'd go along with Adrian's view. Otherwise there's the idea that your mother was unconsciously channeling, in which case why? Perhaps some kind of prayer or ward of protection?

Easy to see why so many christian churches are so confused about the matter. As P.W. just showed, there are several different biblical ways to interpret the nature of tongues, each with scriptures to substantiate the view.

Kakkarot,
I've so been in that situation! You described word for word my experiences. Seems like there are bible schools out there that teach up & coming pastors how to subtley push people over then carry on about them being "slain in the spirit". What a crock!

I do believe it is a genuine gift that comes to people who are basically channeling spoken information from a higher source. Unfortunately I feel such people make up about 5% of a church full of people speaking in tongues. The other 95% are just switching off their brains and babbleing along in their "keeping up with the jones's" religious extacy.

I too went through the "tongues" phase. It wasn't untill I learned from my guide to shut up and sit in silence that I actually started to hear the voices of higher beings around me. I knew then that for me it was a false gift. I was just going along with what was expected of me, and it was actually causing a communication blockage!

James.

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kakkarot
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« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2003, 00:47:08 »

"slain in the spirit" that's what he called it too. but where the heck did they ever get that term from[V]? it just doesn't make sense to call it that[xx(].

~kakkarot
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James S
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« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2003, 05:49:23 »

Agreed!
For peace loving communities some churches have some really violent terms for things. I suppose when you consider its all about Going to War with the Devil!!!

Either that or just consider it religious jargon!
Just wait...soon the church industry will be as bad as the computer industry.

Slain in the spirit will become SITS, or just STS, cause you gotta use a TLA!

James.
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kakkarot
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« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2003, 20:05:10 »

well, i can see how christianity might have war type aspects to it, by why call "being filled with the holy spirit", "slain" in the spirit? i just don't get the slain part.

when i feel the presence of God i certainly don't feel slain (humbled yes, but slain no). like if i wanted to SLAY someone's spirit, they wouldn't just be falling over and giggling about how they can't move (and crying because of a huge emotional burst from within them).

but, whatever *shrugs*, i've pretty much given up on religion a long time ago. i search for the truth, and religion may be a good starting point, but it certainly gets in the way after a while (stigma, dogma, norms and customs, traditions, "laws", etc that all divert one's attention from seeking the truth about it all.)

oops, sorry to get off topic sublime [:I]

~kakkarot
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sublime
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« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2003, 01:59:33 »

kakkarot,
   haha it's ok to get off subject, i am becoming confused with my original question anyways because it seems as if there really isnt an answer (that anyone knows of)... oh and your story in your first post was quite humerous.  


Peace Warrior,
   i find it very interesting to see many different uses/examples of uses of tongues in the bible.. i just wish i knew which one fit my situations.

    sometimes i'd like to think that it means something about my brother and i, and the fact that i have spontaneous projections and have never projected willingly sometimes leads me to believe that there HAS to be a reason for all of this... who knows?
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kakkarot
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« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2003, 21:22:59 »

"sometimes leads me to believe that there HAS to be a reason for all of this". well then i guess it may be a case of "learn what you can and let the rest come as it will".[|)]

good luck finding answers[Smiley].

~kakkarot
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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2003, 14:13:07 »

quote:
Originally posted by kakkarot

"slain in the spirit" that's what he called it too. but where the heck did they ever get that term from[V]? it just doesn't make sense to call it that[xx(].
No it doesn't. Being "Slain in the Spirit" is unbiblical and cannot be found in the bible anywhere in relation to christians.
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Nightfall
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« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2003, 14:20:54 »

quote:
Originally posted by James S

Otherwise there's the idea that your mother was unconsciously channeling, in which case why? Perhaps some kind of prayer or ward of protection?
Then she isn't a christian.

First, the bible forbids a believer from being a medium. Being a medium and a christian are mutually exclusive.

Second, tounges is A gift. It is not THE gift. There are many gifts listed in the bible, Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12-14 both give you a list. A christian can have any gift(s) in those lists, but tounges is not a requisite.
quote:
Easy to see why so many christian churches are so confused about the matter.
There is confusion because chruches do not read their bible. Pretty simple really. Everybody is out for "well, I FEEL that it means this". We don't do that when it comes to reading a newspaper, why do that when it comes to the bible?
quote:
Seems like there are bible schools out there that teach up & coming pastors how to subtley push people over then carry on about them being "slain in the spirit". What a crock!
Yup.
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Nightfall
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« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2003, 14:23:32 »

quote:
Originally posted by Adrian

This is usually associated with past lives - specifically, under certain circumstances, e.g. stress, trance etc., the subject regresses to a past life in another part of the world.
Then we are not talking about "speaking in tounges" because that is strictly a biblical term. What you are talking about is not biblical therefore the term cannot apply.
quote:
This happens alot with young children (under 5 years of age), who are still very much in touch with their higher selves and the higher/inner spheres. Many children have suddenly started to speak languages and dialects that have been extinct and forgotten for hundreds of years, and in totally different parts of the world.
How do you know this? If the languages have been "forgotten", then what's to say that it isn't just "babble"? How do you know it's a "forgotten" language? =)
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goingslow
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« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2003, 16:22:16 »

I love when people come on here stating who is a christian and who isnt.

The bible is full of contradictions thats often why people dont follow it literally.  

Are you here to preach or learn?  I'll ive seen you do so far is preach on christianity nightfall.
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Bishop Booyah
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« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2003, 17:02:22 »

quote:
Originally posted by goingslow

The bible is full of contradictions thats often why people dont follow it literally.  
For example?
quote:
Are you here to preach or learn?  I'll ive seen you do so far is preach on christianity nightfall.
Both actually. I study cults and world religions and compare them to biblical christianity. [Smiley]
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Nightfall
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« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2003, 17:13:11 »

quote:
Originally posted by goingslow

I love when people come on here stating who is a christian and who isnt.
Oh, I guess I should address this too because people like to argue this.

I'm not here judging who IS or ISN'T a christian. That's not my job.

However, the term "Christian" has been watered down and it's become a rather useless term in some circles. When I say "Christian" I mean it in the biblical and historic sense of : a disciple of Christ.

Now, to deny Christ or His teachings would then make you NOT a disciple of Christ. Therefore you cannot call yourself a "Christ-ian".

Take for example the term gentleman. Originally it meant someone who has lands and title. It was not linked in anyway to his character. A man would be a right rotter and still be considered a "gentleman". Today, the term has been redefined to mean someone of character regardless of actual title or social standing.

So unless you are will to define what you mean by "christian", I assume that it is to be used in the historic and biblical sense of the term. In which case you cannot be a medium and a "christian". Because to be a medium would be to deny biblical doctrine and therefore Christ himself.

I hope that I have clarified the term a little bit?
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