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Author Topic: Sept. 11 is George Bush's fault  (Read 24431 times)
Qui-Gon Jinn
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« on: May 17, 2002, 18:53:51 »

Well, yea the terrorists were the people committing that aweful crime against humanity - absolutely indefendable, and barbaric!!   I´m afraid that even more tragic terrorist attacks will occur in the states within the next few years, perhaps with some sort of ´nuclear´ weaponry...      
   .... this relatively small terrorist group though "spoke" (even if the language were horrible) for a much larger group made up of millions of millions (even billions perhaps) human beings who see the US of A as THE greatest terrorists of all...   and well, it doesn´t take much effort to see their point of view, at least not if your only source of information doesn´t come from the  main stream media that is....    the free media of today is just a myth sadly.

   Given you Daniel are an american citizen yourself, you might have a hard time realizing that the US are a terrorist state as well..   Probably the grand daddy of them all...  me saying that probably make you think I am an terrorist to but nothing is further from the truth...   just that they (US of A) handle things more ´discrete´, since they are sitting on the the majority of the worlds geopolitical power (and might I add values $$$ way above morals and even the most basic human rights) they have the means to exploit and oppress and they sure use it, they don´t send a troup of suicidal people to fly into Irans biggest buildings and spark the worlds disgust, and the oppression of the third world doesn´t reach the mainstream media as it should.....  

   Think for a minute, what made these frustrated people commit such an horrific assault on american soil??  Why do they hate America?  They didn´t do it unprovoked, that much is clear, of course that doesn´t make it any less horrible...   but then again, the "slow" consistant explotation of third world countries (mostly countries with oil might I add, what a coincidence......) that the US is guilty of have killed, mostly indirectly, far more than those killed in NY and DC on the 11th of sep., just not at one time and not seen on all the worlds tellies....     maybe Mr. Bush and many of his colleagues aren´t such angels if you think about it??   Living in America should be really good since the only real super power in the world today is pretty much only into national interrests - but think about all of those living outside the US borders, who has to live without the most basic aids for survival just so that the average US citizen can buy their gassoline as cheap as they can....   how do you think they feel about almightie America "stealing" their countries natural assets?

   Remember, An enemy is someone whoms story we havent yet heard, and often we choose not to hear that story casue we know we helped create it...
  ... we are all in this together, how can we choose sides on a round planet?

    Take care //Qui-Gon

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Joe
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« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2002, 20:13:00 »

I agree that America's hands are not clean, but the factors are pretty complex - I don't know if any one side can be called the aggressor.

Militant Arabs have been killing civilians ever since Israel occupied Palestine 30 years ago, and it continues through to today. That is a large part of the tension in the region, especially against the US, without whose support Israel may not have survived so long. But why are most of the oil nations allies of the US? Like everyone else, they're after the US petro-dollars. I feel it's hard to argue that the US has been abusing smaller nations over oil. Kuwait was a case of protecting national interests, and a large superpower has large national interests.

At the same time, US-led sanctions on Iraq are directly responsible for killing hundreds of thousands of civilians, and they seem to prefer political posturing rather than lives of the innocent, which is an outrage. If I were an Arab, I'd feel nothing but hatred for them also. But the answer isn't the murder of thousands more civilians - did they think the US was suddenly going to revese every Middle East policy decision just because they demolished the WTC? That is a terrorist's diplomacy imho...

Geopolitics is crazy stuff - just now East Timor becomes an independent country again, with Australian military and financial support. Yet in 1975, with Australian assent, Indonesia invades and quels resistance to make East Timor a province, obtaining access to some of the largest oil deposits in the world. Without Australia's assent, Indonesia would probably not have sought a war over the territory. Why did Australia approve - revenue sharing - the Timor Gap Treaty sees oil rights (and profits) split between Indonesia and Australia, and all it costs is the civil liberty of a third world nation. What else can you expect though - nations act in *self*-interest, and little else.
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The Astral Pulse
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2002, 20:13:00 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

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Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Tom
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« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2002, 21:00:05 »

As an american citizen who has never been to any other country, how do I learn what it is really like to live anywhere else?


 
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Grenade01
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« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2002, 23:42:51 »

I think that Britain should have never lied and kept Jews from entering Israel after the Balfour agreement.  I think also that if Israel were a much stronger Jewish community (like it would have been if the Balfour agreement was enforced) there would be a lot less problems over there (as well as thousands of Jews who wouldn’t have died in WW2).  
Anyway, militant Muslims don't only hate America and Jews, they hate all infidels.  Infidel is a Latin word that basically means non-believers.  They hate anyone who is not Muslim, and this also means non-radical Muslims are infidels.  

America has its problems, but these people are seriously screwed up in the head.  There is this article that was in a large newspaper (I believe in Pakistan), which basically was trying to convince the readers that Jewish people make flat bread with the dried blood of Muslim children.  I’m sorry, but that’s nazi propaganda right there.  
All I ask is that people do some serious research into this area, before they accuse the United States of being aggressors.  I don’t think you really know what you’re talking about when you say that.  (This is coming from someone who is most unpatriotic about his country and many of the things that they do…so trust me on this)

I do, however, put a large blame on the media for not preventing this.  I don’t know if any of you saw that special on militant Muslims (it aired about ten years ago on …PBS I think, after the first world trade center bombing) and it basically said hey look at all these radical Muslims.  They live in the US, they want to bring down the US, and they are getting millions of dollars from donations and grants by posing as a struggling religious group.  It also identified several terrorists, and basically predicted the Sept. 11 ordeal.  Well… non-radical Muslims complained that it was giving Muslims a bad name, and it got A LOT of flak, and so they pulled it from the air.  I think that’s bullshlt.  Had that video been shown several more times like it was supposed to be, we might have been able to have seen this coming, but because of our religious “tolerance” it was taken off the air.  I don’t know.. If you live in the US and you see that video though, it will scare you!


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Ashfo
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« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2002, 01:42:11 »

I have done a huge in-depth study to the Sept 11 attacks which led me extremely deep into the cesspool of USA politics.

Basically, Bush is not to blame. He is extremely corrupt and a puppet of others, but he is not directly involved. You'll find if you do any in-depth look that the USA is not infact run by those who you think, but that there is an extremely complex and corrupt back line which run the country anonymously.

As to the Sep 11 attacks, I wont post everything that I compiled here, but I think that you should all note several major things. The following list is taken from the online petition for a formal enquiry into Sept 11 at http://www.petitiononline.com/11601TFS/petition.html

1.) Thousands of put stock options that were purchased on United and American airlines immediately prior to 9/11/01

2.) Financial transactions totaling more than 100 million dollars that electronically passed through the World Trade Center immediately prior to its destruction on 9/11

3.) Black-box recordings from the four planes which crashed on 9/11

4.) Cell phone calls made by passengers on hijacked flights on 9/11 which never emerged on their cell-phone bills

5.) Interviews of any air-traffic controllers on duty on 9/11

6.) Eyewitness accounts detailing Flight 93's explosion prior to its crashing

7.) Aircraft debris strewn approximately seven miles from the crash site of Flight 93

8.) Unocal's role in its quest to build an oil pipeline across Afghanistan, plans implemented prior to 2001

9.) Carlyle Corporation's role in overseeing Unocal's quest to have an oil pipeline built across Afghanistan, plans implemented prior to 2001

10.) Role of remote-control software technology implemented in 9/11 hijackings and crashes

11.) George W. Bush's possible foreknowledge of the terrorist attacks on 9/11

12.) Role of the Northern Alliance in explosive growth of opium production in Afghanistan after U.S. military intervention


A certain level of knowledge is needed to understand several of the points above, but they raise some of the incredibly odd things about Sept 11.

Another thing not mentioned there is the fact that even though it was known the four planes had all changed dramatically no USAF air support was sent, even though that is standard op procedure, even after some of the planes had crashed still no air escort was sent.

That is damning evidence of inside support from the USA for the attacks.

- Ashfo

 
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« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2002, 01:42:11 »



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cainam_nazier
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« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2002, 02:17:00 »

There are a great many things that we do as a nation that would make several countries angry at us.   I can see it well.   I have often thouht that if we started staying out of other peoples buisness we would not have as many problems ourselves.   But one of the biggest problems I see is the UN.   The US Military often ends up being the largest backer for most UN operations in any country.  That tends to push who evers hate toward the US.  

I also am begining to see more and more that our government is functioning less and less like it should.  The checks and balances system is a smoke screen for what is going on.   We are becomeing a country of too many beliefs and too many laws.  Most people don't see this because they try to look at in on the large scale.  It is however much easier to see of the smaller scale when you look at the individual states how things run.  Often things that are not in the public interest but rather a personal belief get past into law because they are piggy backed on with other laws.  A perfect example of this is California and its no smoking policy.  In passing this law they have taken the right away from not only the people but the buisness owners.  The bottom line of the law says that you can not smoke in or at any public facility.  Resturants, bars, bowling alleys, and parks.  
  Thngs like this show very well how the people in power force thier won opinions on to the masses.  It is the same with the Federal Government as well, but they in turn try to force thier opinions on the world.  Why do you think that the Anti Terroist movement that the US started got so much backing and very quickly.  The US government made it very clear that if you were not with us you were against us.  I mean come on we ousted an entire government from the middle east because we did not like thier views.  If we had just left it alone from the begining this entire ordeal would not have happened.  If other countries want to fight amoungst themselves, fine let them.  Just don't let them bring it here.   But we could not stay out of it and as a result we brought it to us.

I am begining to bable so I will stop.


David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
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Joe
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« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2002, 02:57:13 »

I've heard a lot of conspiracy theories about 9/11, including the Israeli theory. I think it's a case of how seemingly inocuous information can be made to look like a major conspiracy fairly easily. I read the petitiononline page...

"1.) Thousands of put stock options that were purchased on United and American airlines immediately prior to 9/11/01 "
This is not as bad as it looks - analysts were bearish on airline stocks for some time, and larger put option volumes were sold in the months of Aug/Sep. There was however evidence of larger put volumes in the week prior to 9/11, and many of these were attributed to overseas buyers who were very possibly aware of / implicated in the attacks (Middle Eastern, etc). To suggest that any Western player would make those transactions is ludicrous - they are easily traceable and not only would you have profits frozen, you would be indicted in one of the world's biggest criminal prosecutions since WWII.

"2.) Financial transactions totaling more than 100 million dollars that electronically passed through the World Trade Center immediately prior to its destruction on 9/11"
Again, this is baloney. The WTC houses some of the largest broking houses in the world, currency transactions alone total $1.5 *trillion* US per day, and at 9:00am it was simultaneously the close of the european session and the start of the US session - higher volumes!

"8.) Unocal's role in its quest to build an oil pipeline across Afghanistan, plans implemented prior to 2001 " & "9.)..."
I don't find anything suspicious in this - Afghanistan lies between many Southwest Asian old fields and the shipping centres in the Gulf of Omman. There would be similar projects in any number of surrounding countries, which imply no involvement in planning an attack on the US to achieve their ends. US intelligence and retribution is scarry - I don't think Unocal Corp would be willing to stake their existence on contributing to such a massively risky action.

Of course, I could just be spewing Us propaganda, but I personally see this as a clear case of terrorist action and nothing more. Although I can't really explain the Israeli thing.
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Mobius
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« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2002, 03:26:06 »

G,day guys

It all really sucks,cause it's just about the money & nothing else.I'm disgusted in our politicians here as they have designed the majority of the latest budget to once again follow the money,that is,investing heavily in war.The amount of money to be made from companies supplying everything from missiles to biscuits in the soldiers ration packs is staggering.For alot of people the more war & the longer it is,the better.

Here in Oz we have had a spate of companies collapsing & guess what? the CEO's end up with everything & the company goes bankrupt & everyone down the line but them, goes down.We havn't got as much money to play with as ENRON had,but a few insurance companies,an airline,IT companies,mining stocks & a few smaller fish made a nice dent in our economy,with lower income people bearing the brunt of the force through taxes.

I agree in one way,the media is trying to pin it on BUSH,but they wouldn't dare focus on the people who are major shareholders.One phonecall from a billionaire shareholder could ring CNN or CBS or whoever & say "I might buy a few million options in your company today,how long do you think it will take to sink your company?" Bush's hands are not dirty but he is a seal swimming with killer whales.

If this war ends up heading towards Columbia or other suspected drug traders in the world,you will KNOW it's all about the money.

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/bushcheney.html

If true,this is pretty scary.

Good journeys all

Mobius

 
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ralphm
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« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2002, 05:34:39 »

i think this is the start of a decline in civilization, brought on our addiction to oil and having to manipulate the world to get it.we are not looking ahead to replace it with renewable energy and we are going to invest and use the military to get it. unfortunately the people of the US will  support this. it may be too late already.

 
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« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2002, 06:28:39 »

Mobius - good link. Although I generally shy away from Nexus, that article was sourced well, from FTW I think.

In case anyone's interested in some wider reading on the issues, From the Wilderness is an excellent source (http://www.fromthewilderness.com/). Also, http://www.insightmag.com/news/251677.html contains some info on the insider trading theory.

And an interesting expose on the power elite is http://www.bilderberg.org. This site is a little too "conspiracy theorist" for my liking, but it can't be denied that the Bilderbeg Conferences contain the most powerful figures in the world today, and that their agenda is not at all in the interest of the common man. I would agree that things are, sadly, heading in dangerous directions.
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bitsmart
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« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2002, 08:51:36 »

A warning, if you even peek into the conspiracy theory culture, you will either walk away or get sucked in. I kinda got sucked in.

It's real hard to sort out the real from the paranoid and the many gradients in between, as they are all sensational. Some rational logic and even common sense, combined with deduction, will give you a rough idea of the real world we live in.

The US is a double-sided coin. Growing up here, I have life really good, and have lots of oppurtunities that not alot of others get; I'm thankful for that. However, I see politics and greed (not to mention...*dramatic music plays*...consumerism!) poisoning this country to death, dragging the rest of the world with it. I pray for good news.

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Mobius
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« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2002, 10:31:21 »

Thanks Joe

I have read a bit about the Biderbergers before,there just seems so many of these big guys.Why don't you like NEXUS,got any good low down on those guys?As much as I like their stuff,you have to be even more careful to think of another point of view when reading their magazines.I try to cross check the stories with other magazines & websites,the Sai Baba one is a perfect case of letting someone else do your journalism for you & stuffing up.

Ralphm & Bitsmart,mate there is just as many scammers & greedy sorts willing to do anything for their own supremacy over here in Oz,it's just we only have a population of 21 million,same as L.A I think? But just like America,there were wealthy people right from the beginning establishing themselves for future control here in Australia.We have last time I heard, the largest building for a parliment house in the world & major finances were involved with the USA in building it.  

A large proportion of it is restricted & unused & if fully functional could house UN size meetings.Why build so big when we don't use it & our population isn't expected to explode?Why the reports of miners & construction workers that there is enough accomadation underneath Pine Gap in the middle of no-where to house a small city?Worst case scenario shelters?

The people who own the TV stations also own the newspapers & give heavily biased coverage of contemporary events eg. Recently here in Oz,Rupert Murdoch's company Newscorp was about to post an Australian record loss of $7 billion,but do you think much t.v or newspaper coverage was devoted to it? Some very quick t.v segments & small news articles,compared to pasting their rivals all over the front page for a 10th of the loss.The idea was to not alert too many people through media manipulation.All the financial advisers got on with their finacial reports & of course steered clear of Rupert Murdoch.

Also you mention getting sucked in by conspiracy theories,yes I know what you mean,somewhere in amongst it all there is the truth,but I'm sure these rich guys have lots of people leading false trails for them & making you think your onto something,when it's only another thing they have set up to divert your attention.Bitsmart we are all dragging the world to their deaths in first world countries,where does the amount of money one could want stop?

I really enjoy my life & the things I have & can achieve & feel lucky to live where I live,but money stifles productivity for the good of all.We take so much for granted like clean water,sewerage systems,power,good medical & access to the best products,even if it is all for show,only to be thrown in a compacter minutes later.

It wasn't until the Vietnam War that media was allowed to report with reasonable freedom & little censorship,then people had in their lounge rooms what our tax dollars are paying for,to kill others so that we can have more.

In Australia & America people were outraged & mobilized huge protests at our governments,some were killed for their protesting against war,what irony eh? In worl War 1 & 2 our troops were made to feel like heroes because thats what the media told them,but they were doing worse than in Vietnam,it's just peoples burning children weren't running across their t.v sets then,so they didn't know what war was like.

Good journeys all

Mobius

 
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Ashfo
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« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2002, 02:56:31 »

quote:
Originally posted by Joe:
"1.) Thousands of put stock options that were purchased on United and American airlines immediately prior to 9/11/01 "
This is not as bad as it looks - analysts were bearish on airline stocks for some time, and larger put option volumes were sold in the months of Aug/Sep. There was however evidence of larger put volumes in the week prior to 9/11, and many of these were attributed to overseas buyers who were very possibly aware of / implicated in the attacks (Middle Eastern, etc). To suggest that any Western player would make those transactions is ludicrous - they are easily traceable and not only would you have profits frozen, you would be indicted in one of the world's biggest criminal prosecutions since WWII.


You might be interested to know that the USA Government does infact know the whereabouts of Ladens accounts - they are joint accounts with William(i think?) Rockefeller, descendent of the "Great" Rockefeller. If you want the whereabouts of these accounts I can dredge them up. They said if they knew of the whereabouts then they would be frozen - but theyre not. Why? Because of corruption, political subterfuge etc. Please also note that if you were a Westerner involved with the attacks you wouldnt use your own hands to do the dirty business but would rather use overseas accounts and others to do it for you.

quote:

"2.) Financial transactions totaling more than 100 million dollars that electronically passed through the World Trade Center immediately prior to its destruction on 9/11"
Again, this is baloney. The WTC houses some of the largest broking houses in the world, currency transactions alone total $1.5 *trillion* US per day, and at 9:00am it was simultaneously the close of the european session and the start of the US session - higher volumes!


I never looked at this seriously as I knew of the incredibly high WTC trading volumes, but I believe they are referring to 100million dollars of illegal trading.


quote:

"8.) Unocal's role in its quest to build an oil pipeline across Afghanistan, plans implemented prior to 2001 " & "9.)..."
I don't find anything suspicious in this - Afghanistan lies between many Southwest Asian old fields and the shipping centres in the Gulf of Omman. There would be similar projects in any number of surrounding countries, which imply no involvement in planning an attack on the US to achieve their ends. US intelligence and retribution is scarry - I don't think Unocal Corp would be willing to stake their existence on contributing to such a massively risky action.


No, that is not the idea put forth. The idea put forth is this: The Taleban refused to allow the oil pipeline to go ahead yet Unocal made significant plans (involving surverying etc) prior to 2001 that were completely pointless unless they had prior knowledge of the Talebans downbringing. I do not suggest Unocal themselves orchestrated the WTC attacks, but alongside with the USA Government either:
a) planned them or (more likely)
b) had previous knowledge of them, therefore decided to use that knowledge to their advantage by blaming the attacks on Osama & those who harbour terrorists -- the Taleban -- by claiming to have "irrefutable proof" that showed Osamas involvement. Where is that proof? It has never been released but the world swallowed it whole that Osama was behind the attacks. And of course Osama would claim the attacks if they were blaimed on him - what greater publicity for his cause and what better way to show off his power?

quote:

Of course, I could just be spewing Us propaganda, but I personally see this as a clear case of terrorist action and nothing more. Although I can't really explain the Israeli thing.


Of course Tongue No, there are too many problems, too many missing links and not enough answers. Even if it is purely an act of terrorism, something which is extremely unlikely, the USA has put itself on the World Stage much too much in previous years and now for it to survive much longer. These are the days of power being associated with money, not might. There are many rich people outside of the USA, some who harbor great hate for them and with the same amount the USA might buy a squadron of F-22s he will buy himself a nuke and deal a much greater amount of damage.

There are nuclear weapons floating around these days - Russian records show huge unaccountable losses of nuclear and chemical weapons.

Bleh.

I just believe that every 'great' nation has its time - and the USA is nearing the end. Perhaps this will coincide with the 11th of December 2012 Tongue

- Ashfo

 
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Grenade01
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« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2002, 07:20:03 »

Yikes
Well I should've kept my mouth shut because I'm obviously not as knowledgable on this subject.

I still feel that people are just trying to point fingers, and need to just focus on the task at hand...so to speak.

Anyway
I still don't believe the Us gov't is to blame as much as the conspiracy theories claim it is.
Although Im not pretending the US isn't corrupt either.

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Joe
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« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2002, 09:49:36 »

Hey Ashfo,

Well mate, you and I may have to disagree on this one. I see virtually no "evidence" in petitiononline's accusations - they're actually a bunch of one-liners on a website. You're right in that the US has traced a number of accounts that placed both forward and spot options before 9/11, and many of these accounts trace through Panama or BVI (British Virgin Islands) but claiming that no prosecutions have occurred "because of corruption, political subterfuge etc" is a little wild - any specifics on why this has not occurred?

I didn't see the reference to "100million dollars of *illegal* trading." - I think petitiononline left this unqualified as just "100 million" which is very easily explained as you can see. What are the facts behind construing any particular transactions as "illegal"? Can they say which transactions exactly were classified as "illegal"? If they're considered illegal, why have neither ASIC nor SEC said anything of the sort?

The point regarding Unocal still stands - there is absolutely no evidence linking that, or any other, corporation to implicit or explicit involvement in 9/11 - those claims are pure speculation based on generalised circumstances. eg, do we when Unocal filed request for pipeline (perhaps many months ago)? How many other corporations have files for pipelines through Afhganistan? How many existing pipelines are there through Afghanistan already? How many in neighbouring territories?

You see, it is very easy to for a conspiracy theorist to gather some generalised fluff and make it look like a major angle has been suddenly revealed. While this reinforces the preconceptions of other conspiracy-mongers, there is often little substantiation and poor research. I've actually written to Lori Price and Mike Wheeler, who posted the petitiononline web page, prodding them for details along the lines above - I've received no response.

Let me know if you have any sigificant research on the above, corroborated by at least two third party journalists, and I would be more than willing to change my opinion. Until then, the facts speak fairly clearly for themselves.

All the best,
Joe
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Qui-Gon Jinn
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« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2002, 10:34:23 »

ASHFO> "Basically, Bush is not to blame. He is extremely corrupt and a puppet of others, but he is not directly involved. You'll find if you do any in-depth look that the USA is not infact run by those who you think, but that there is an extremely complex and corrupt back line which run the country anonymously."  
  I couldn´t agree more to that statement, most americans, and "outlanders" as well of course, think George W currently is the most powerful man in the world...   but to my understanding, he is really but a puppet, a powerful puppet, but still a puppet...   and his strings are being pulled by other much, much more powerful individuals.. a group of indiviuals...
   
TOM, well I don´t know if you´ll find out how exactly how it is to live in other countries by going to this site, but it is one of the greatest sources of real news on the internet that I´ve found!!  Not the typical mainstream media babble about who gave who the last sexual favour in the white house and what have you....    it is www.rense.com - a bit down on that site you´ll find loads of articles..    and of course, the radio program is often very "educational".

 Be well //Qui-Gon


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« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2002, 07:30:03 »

Hey Joe,

I think your right on that one! I am not saying you are a typical American - you sound much too logical and independent for that, and having just said that I have seen your from Aussie... haha! Well, anyhow.. proves my point Tongue

You are correct in the majority of petitiononlines statements - it seems they were made by some rather misinformed and hasty people. When speaking on the 100million dollars of trading it was purely regurgitation of information from some other sources on my part and I accept that may well be a conspirators misuse of information.

As for Unocal I'd again like to point to the fact that no evidence as yet has been produced linking Bin Laden (and therefore the Taleban) with the Sep 11 attacks as well as to the purpose of beginning surveying prior to Sep 11 when it was obviously extremely unlikely building would ever go ahead. I myself in all the hours of searching I did never found any proposals from other oil companies and infact had proof that the US Government had collaborated with Unocal in terms of the pipelines construction. (I have since lost this proof and all other info I recorded regarding Sep 11 attacks because of a computer reformat - this sounds dodgy, yeah, but its the truth).

There are many other things to note apart from the evidence shown by petitiononline - such things as the lack of USAF air support, the fact that 4 of the supposed hijackers turned up safely after Sept 11 and such things as the never-released black box material recovered from the Pentagon crash, control tower-plane communication recordings etc etc.

I see your points and I know how easy it is for conspiracy theorists to come up with such ideas, but to me the evidence is overwhelming and points directly to something going on, to what degree I dont know.


- Ashfo

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Joe
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« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2002, 08:59:59 »

Hey Ashfo - fair points mate. In this kind of discussion, it's never going to be absolutely clear one way or another - there's always room for conjecture and debate. Good point of view nonetheless - and do post/email if you get more info/reports/etc as I'm interested in the general topic of power elite operations, etc.

All the best!

PS: I just saw you were Kiwi too - lol - that's gotta explain something for sure! http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>
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« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2002, 03:06:45 »

hehe, I've debated Sep 11 with so many and basically you take a side and stick with it, very few people change their beliefs...

I will have a look for backups I may have created in other partitions on my HD..

Have you been reading the Reverse Speech topic? I intend to do some reversals about Sep 11 and see what comes up Smiley

- Ashfo

 
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« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2002, 01:53:22 »

In my conspiratorial opinion Bush knew about the attacks before they happened - he had to. Ashfo mentioned briefly what is for me the most compelling piece of evidence - that there is an airbase (I forget the name - Williams?) which is only 10 minutes from the pentagon. This base houses 2 flight ready squadrons of jet fighters AT ALL TIMES. Once the first plane crashed...no lets go before that. All flights in the US are tracked at all times (there are websites where you can watch their progress along the flight paths), and when any of these planes starts flying off their given course automatic procedure is for a fighter plane to "intercept" it. Especially when we are talking about huge passenger planes. They fly up there, find the plane, hold on its wing, try and hail them, see what they can see etc and the levels of warning go up and up until they start firing warning shots and, eventually, they might even shoot the plane down. This is a standard procedure and there is absolutely no easy explanation why NONE of the planes which crashed were intercepted. And yet even after the first plane struck, nothing, the USAF was nowhere to be seen. By that point the air above NY should have been stuffed with fighters - there were none. They only appeared AFTER the last plane had crashed. At the very worst, once the first plane had crashed, the others should have been spotted and intercepted (note this is very different to attacking them, although secretary of state would have you believe otherwise = spreading mis-information)

To order the airbase to keep all their planes grounded throughout the whole tradgedy would have required orders from the president himself. There simply is no other explanation.

Daniel - the media has only picked up on the most tentative pieces of evidence like the one which came out recently, and will inevitably get nowhere. To be blunt the press is in the pockets of their owners, who are in collaboration with the military-industrial-republican complex. Again, there is no other explanation except to say that the press is controlled in some way, otherwise why have they not picked up on the points above?

Anyone dissagree? To date I haven't heard anything near a reasonable refute for the above, but I hold hope!

Of course, yes, it was still an enormous tradgedy. As was the terrorist plane which was shot down with more exotic weapons later in NY - the one the press claimed was not terrorist (.....). The one where the back of the plane and its engine just "dropped off", and the black box recorder read g forces sideways of around 0.8 - impossible using normal theories - the turbulance one just doesn't hold (I study engineering, including aeronautical). And I believe the CIA still has not released the video recordings of the plane crashing, odd that.

Bitsmart
quote:
A warning, if you even peek into the conspiracy theory culture, you will either walk away or get sucked in. I kinda got sucked in.  

You are so right! I got caught in the web too.

Hope I haven't upset anyone here, but I believe the truth should be known.

 
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(!!!Formerly known as Inguma!!!)
You are the Alpha and the Omega. You are vaster than the universe and more powerful than a flaring supernova. You are truly incredible!!
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« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2002, 02:31:49 »

Hey Inguma - I have to disagree my friend. I don't know where you got that opinion from, but I can only counter it with the facts :-

- At 8:40am EDT the FAA alerted NORAD’s Northeast Air Defense Sector in Rome, N.Y. that American Airlines Flight 11 had been hijacked after taking off from Boston en route to Los Angeles. At 8:43 a.m., the FAA notified NORAD that United Airlines Flight 175 from Boston to Los Angeles had also been hijacked.

- NORAD ordered two F-15 jet fighters into the air from Otis Air National Guard Base in Falmouth, Mass., at 8:46 a.m. At about that time, American Flight 11 crashed into the World Trade Center.

- The F-15s were airborne at 8:52 a.m. At 9:02, as United Flight 175 struck the World Trade Center, the F-15s were eight minutes away, or 71 miles.

- The FAA notified NORAD at 9:24 a.m. that a third jet, American Flight 77 bound from Washington to Los Angeles, had been hijacked.

- NORAD ordered two F-16 fighters from Langley Air Force Base in Virginia to intercept the airliner.

- The fighters were airborne at 9:30 a.m., but were 12 minutes, or 105 miles, away when the airliner struck the Pentagon.

- After the Pentagon strike, Bush authorized fighters to shoot down any other aircraft that threatened targets in Washington.

- United Flight 93 from Newark to San Francisco was by then over Pennsylvania, headed back to the East Coast. F-16s from Langley flew protective patterns over Washington after the Pentagon strike, but as Flight 93 headed toward them, it crashed outside Shanksville, Pa., at approximately 10:03 a.m., according to NORAD.

- I can't recall any executive order from the President, Vice President or Security Chiefs to ground fighter jets, but as you may know the standing order is not to shoot down civilian liners without presidential authorisation, for obvious reasons, hence the delay.

I hate to appear predictable in my views, and I'm as willing as the next person to change opinions based on the facts, but like I said before, it's got to be *hard* evidence, not conjecture or hearsay from a C.T. site.

All the best!
Joe
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« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2002, 02:47:16 »

Hi All -

Inguma - re Bush's knowing intelligently and the military being able to respond intelligently with fighter escorts to commercial flights containing terrorist threats full of civillian passengers in such a way as you described  - I say "full out B#Sh*t!"  As a military dependant of a career Airforce navigator and the wife of a former Army Airborne MP, I happen to know that the missions my family members participated in (Vietnam to Operation Just 'Cuz' and Desert Storm, were not necessarily guided by military "intelligence..."  'nuf said.  Regarding communication between civilian and military authorities - again - do I need to say it again?  Who would have really imagined this and would be willing to take responsiblity for shooting down three planes full of civilians over American soil in the face of possilbly being wrong?  .... AGAIN  - I say to you.... B#LL SH*T!

Censor me if you will!!

KB

 
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« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2002, 04:49:52 »

Kristen, you are obviously a patriotic American and nothing will change your mind, but unless you have done some serious research and actually looked into the events with an unbiased mind can you draw fair conclusions.

I believe some of the timing recorded below is inaccurate..

=
- At 8:40am EDT the FAA alerted NORAD’s Northeast Air Defense Sector in Rome, N.Y. that American Airlines Flight 11 had been hijacked after taking off from Boston en route to Los Angeles. At 8:43 a.m., the FAA notified NORAD that United Airlines Flight 175 from Boston to Los Angeles had also been hijacked.

- NORAD ordered two F-15 jet fighters into the air from Otis Air National Guard Base in Falmouth, Mass., at 8:46 a.m. At about that time, American Flight 11 crashed into the World Trade Center.
=

From memory I am certain AA flight 11 took longer than 6minutes after changing course to crash into the WTC. But, then again I could have a bad memory Tongue. Also note that it took twelve minutes for the planes to be launched. From memory again I believe the SOP response time to be in the vicinity of 3-4minutes, but definetly nowhere near twelve minutes. Im pretty sure the RNZAF could make competition for that, before the combat wing was disbanded that is.

You would also think that a plane flying into one of your largest buildings constitutes a rather major national disaster and that planes should naturally be scrambled to all major centres as a precautionary action incase of further attacks.

During the whole exercise four planes were launched.

Four.

- Ashfo

P.S: Joe, Nexus Magazine posted on article that outlines some of the problems with Sep 11.... There are a number of inaccuracies but I was just lookin' round the site last night and rememberd your request... you might find it interesting Smiley

They reported such things as Unocal stopping work in Afghanistan and... bleh, cant remember exacts, just a few things that werent quite right, but nevertheless its an interesting read. Smiley

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/overview.html



 
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Joe
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« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2002, 06:49:56 »

Hey Ashfo - the info I posted came from Associated Press, one of the world's largest professional news sources. I can't really put much more credibility into the data than that.

I took a look at the Nexus page - thanks for the link. I'd like to be more complementary about Nexus, but that page just confirms my currently held view that Nexus is a forum for 2-bit conspiratorialists to post whatever hogwash sounds good.

That article included a list of 21 'Unanswered' questions like, "Why were no names of the named hijackers on any of the passenger lists? If they all used aliases, how did the FBI identify them so quickly?"
   and
"Why are we bombing Afghanistan, when apparently no listed hijackers were Afghans but instead Arabs from various Middle Eastern nations? Since Iraq was implicated in the 1993 WTC attack, why are we not bombing that "rogue" nation?"
-- If they had done even the merest research, they would have discovered that the terrorists used 'stolen identity' aliases from a variety of Pakistani, Palestinian, Jordanian, Iranian, etc civilians. Many of these names were even on FBI lists for other reasons. This is the direct cause of, and answer to, both questions.

The entire Nexus article contains other "unanswered" questions, plus a host of uninformed, speculative and comical gems - my favourite was re: stock conspiracy - "Short-selling of stocks involves the opportunity to gain large profits by passing shares to a friendly third party, then buying them back when the price falls" http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_big.gif" border=0>  I almost fell off my seat at that one - even a basic knowledge of stock transactions would tell you that your "friendly third-party" would lose exactly the same amount that you gained, ie you sold high and bought low and he bought high and sold low!  I guarantee he won't be friendly no more.

Seriously, there's so much of this sort of stuff out there, and I don't have the energy or inclination to refute it all, but I can tell you that there's a good reason why most informed spectators shy away from Nexus' "world class" journalism - maybe we're all under mind control by the Illuminati after all! http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

Here's a link that IMHO contains a comprehensive and critical assessment of 9/11 (the conspiratorial angle notwithstanding) - http://www.attackonamerica.net

All the best mate!
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« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2002, 08:20:00 »

Hey, thanks for the site.

Yeah I was reading the Nexus article about 2am or 3am last night, my brain obviously missed some of their stupid statements, especially that one about the shorting of stocks... rofl. He's obviously a stock market genius huh? Tongue

On second looks I agree that about 50% of those questions are contradictory and entirely obvious.

Heh, the reason those times etc are false is because of what you said - theyre from the Associated Press which is part of the Conspiracy that The Revolution must overthrow by Exposing the Obvious Truths of that which They Cannot Hide.

Exaggerated, but rather true. The larger the agency the higher the chance of the truth being distorted by those Higher Up.

From your AttackonAmerica website I got the following information which partially confirms my suspicions and memories. I've just copied the questions that are relevant to our discussion on the response of the USAF, and also a few at the end that I find most important.

------------
. NORAD had almost an hour and half to scramble F-16 jets from Langley AFB to protect Washington D.C. and the Pentagon, but incredibly failed to do so. Their excuse was that they didn't have enough time. Isn't 90 minutes enough time to protect Washington D.C.?

2. NORAD had a least half an hour to scramble F-15 jets from Otis Air Station to protect NYC / WTC, but yet failed to do so. Isn't 30 minutes enough time to protect New York City?

3. NORAD purportedly gets info from FAA at 8:40 and 8:43 that 2 planes have been hijacked and are heading directly for NYC. (they knew hijacking as early as 8:10-8:15) Why does NORAD then sit on this vital info for 6 full minutes and even waited until one of the planes went into the WTC before telling Otis Air Station to scramble at 8:46?

4. Once the F-15's at 8:52 and the F-16's at 9:30 were finally airborne, why were they flying at less than 1/3 of their top speed?

5. American Airlines Flight 11 flew directly over the #1 terrorist target in the U.S. -- Indian Point's 3 Nuclear Power Plants which are only 24 miles north of NYC. More than 20 million people would prematurely die and the land would become a wasteland forever. So, are we dealing with benevolent terrorists?

9. Did big oil and gas multinationals plan for years to build pipelines from the Caspian Sea going through Afghanistan?

15. Follow the money. By following the Put Options on United Airlines and American Airlines stock the days preceding Sept. 11, you will find it was anything but normal. Did some some U.S. intelligence agencies profit by selling these stocks short?

16. Where the hell is the white paper we were promised months ago by the United States government which was supposed to describe in detail all of the insurmountable evidence against Osama bin Laden? Ashfos note: this is the biggest piece of evidence for myself. How ironic that it is infact a lack of evidence that creates this evidence.

18. Former President Bush should immediately resign from the Carlyle Group because of an obvious conflict of interest. How much money is the Bush family making off this undeclared war?

20. What about the black boxes from all 4 flights? What about all the conversations between the FAA and all 4 of these flights? What about all those cell phone calls made from all of these flights? Wouldn't it be nice to actually be able to hear for ourselves some of the actual voices. Or is that just too much to ask in a free and open democracy? The grieving widows of UA 93 has asked the FBI to please let them listen to the last few minutes of the voice recorder for closure's sake -- why has the FBI denied them this?

22. How could there possibly not be any Congressional investigation on what took place on September 11th? In the January 2002 issue of Fire Engineering Magazine at fireengineering.com there is a Call to Action for its members to contact their Senators and Representatives in Washington D.C. to ask that a blue ribbon panel be convened to thoroughly investigate the WTC collapse. Fire Engineering has good reason to believe that the "official investigation" blessed by FEMA and run by the American Society of Civil Engineers with the Bechtel Corporation is a half-baked farce that may already have been commandeered by political forces whose primary interests, to put it mildly, lie far afield of full disclosure. How can the biggest terrorist attack on American soil since the war of 1812 go without a complete indepth Federal investigation?

And for a little interest:

23. Understand History: From the USS Maine being destroyed in 1898, to the Lusitania being sunk in 1915, to our allowing Pearl Harbor's attack in 1941, to the Gulf of Tonkin in 1964, to 300 babies slaughtered in incubators in 1991, and finally understand Operation Northwoods from 1962. How many times can the overwhelming majority of us keep being fooled?



----------------------------





- Ashfo





 
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