The Astral Pulse
News: http://www.astralpulse.com/aup.html. Acceptable Use Policy for the forums. Please read and ensure that you respect these policies. Thank you.

Please note that due to the amount of spam posts we have been receiving over the past few months, we have switched Registration to require you to be approved by a moderator.  We will go through the approval list as often as we can, but if it's been 24 hours and you haven't been Approved yet or you've received a rejection email, please email myself or one of the moderators immediately so we may correct the application.

We apologize for any inconveniences this may cause, but it's the last resort we have to fighting the spam for now.
 
*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register. September 26, 2018, 18:47:56


Login with username, password and session length


Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Sept. 11 is George Bush's fault  (Read 24432 times)
Rob
Astral Energy 5
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1041


23969315 ingumar@hotmail.com oatinguma
View Profile
« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2002, 03:05:16 »

Comparing the USA to Nazi Germany is really not as far out as many would believe - the Patriot act effectively gives Bush near dictatorial powers. Not many people know this - including many members of Congress, who basically signed it without reading past the 2nd page, it was pushed so fast. If they didn't sign it, they would be labelled "unpatriotic". As is its rediculously stupid name. And to be labelled unpatriotic, in a country where 90% of the population supports then anti-terrorist campaign, is one hell of a big hammer. Some people say that Bush has legally more powers than Hitler, so we shall see where all this leads (somewhere dark and sharp I suspect). For me, I do not know, though i am starting to be able to back some of this up with referse speech ( eg Bush says "Our nations must spare no effort, at {preventing all forms} of proliferation" goes to "look thats your fault in Africa"....) - yes, I found that reversal, so not completely an armchair bitcher http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_tongue.gif" border=0> lol. And I have barely started. Me and Ashfo and going to set up a site with all the truth we can find, again, see where it leads.

It does not matter whether other nations would have followed a similar path, the hard truth is that the US has acted completely ruthlessly for too many years now. Karmically, the government is supported by the population, so what the goverment does, the general populace bears some of the debt for.

I do not believe it is human nature to at like this. Granted, it may be the nature of some people, but therefore it is the nature of an equal amount to oppose that view - just those people have been pushed underground. Power may currupt, but only to those who are not ready for it. A leader should be able to cope with and control such forces, which is where the american populace went so terrifyingly wrong in voting in Bush, I simply so not understand it, it is heredictory power, which goes against all the principles of democracy. It shocks and worries me deeply to see him in power. This, nobody can defend against. Then consider that 1% of the population controls 2/3rds of the wealth and you come out with a worrying picture

"the continuous consolidation of money and power into higher, tighter and righter hands" - Bush I

 
Logged

(!!!Formerly known as Inguma!!!)
You are the Alpha and the Omega. You are vaster than the universe and more powerful than a flaring supernova. You are truly incredible!!
Ashfo
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 217

5336431
View Profile Email
« Reply #51 on: May 26, 2002, 06:47:19 »

Inguma, check your PMs and email me back Smiley

- Ashfo

 
Logged
The Astral Pulse
« Reply #51 on: May 26, 2002, 06:47:19 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

 Logged
Frank
Astral Energy 5
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3120


View Profile
« Reply #52 on: May 26, 2002, 08:05:53 »

quote:
Originally posted by Kristen:
Frank -You have not comprehended my intent in what I wrote.   Everything you've cited is commonly available through media outlets; and, as I said, every government in the world who can, does the same thing, however many try to hide that fact with more success.  I don't appreciate your use of "you" when (I assume) you refer to America in general, just as I assume some poor bloke from Britian may not appreciate being called to the carpet for the actions of the IRA.

It seems to me that both of you may be more interested in painting me with a bloody brush instead of really listening to what I'm saying.  I'm not going to play straw man, or scapegoat apologist.  Its useless.





I both hear and comprehend what you are saying perfectly. It's just that the relative merits of the arguments have no real interest to me. As I say, it's the irony of it all that I find *doubly* fascinating. Especially where you say, "If someone looks like a stereotype to an observer - the observer is not looking closely enough." That was exquisite.

Yours,
Frank









Logged
Eranos
Astral Energy 1
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3

Ramen Minion
View Profile Email
« Reply #53 on: May 26, 2002, 10:12:33 »



Power corrupts, and Absolute power corrupts Absolutely.  This is true anywhere and everywhere, and can be exampled in so many ways that I would die before I named them all, and I would have missed all the ones that occured while I was listing them.  Hey, look, another one just happened.  Truth is, no matter what anyone does, you'll always end up with someone who doesn't agree, whether it's good, bad, or ugly.  You can please some of the people all of the time.  You can please all of the people some of the time.  BUT YOU CAN'T PLEASE ALL OF THE PEOPLE ALL OF THE TIME.  Anyway, I'm gonna spew one more piece, a quote very few of you may know.

"Though I may not agree with what you say, I will fight with my life for your right to say it."  (I think it's Thoreau.)  Americans are all for their own freedoms to do whatever they want, however they want, whenever they want.  They also cherish the freedom to not give a damn about anywhere else in the world.  We have the freedom to be ignorant, and too many people exercise that freedom on a daily basis.  And some people even more often than that.  We're free to be misled, misrepresented, misinterpreted, misunderstood, and mistaken for people who know about what goes on in the world.  But the truth is the average american is more content to drive his lexus to the gym just to sweat in a sauna with his stockbroker, then visit his mistress for his daily exercise, then return home to his wife and kids sweaty and tired, than research something he sees on the evening news.  Or at least that's the way we used to be.  Now enough people know how to use computers that the government actually has to withold information from the media, or pay them not to say things, instead of just puting a little bit of spin on them and leaving them alone to gather dust.  I'm still trying to find the other side of this whole september 11th thing.  I refuse to believe that whomever planned september 11th meant it to be the only part of their plan.  I want to know the connection between september 11th, chandra levy, enron, and andrea yates.  Because there has to be one.  I don't care if it's bumblebee tuna, I want to know that it exists, because I"m an american, and I have the freedom to pretend I know everything about everything.

Of course, none of that is my opinion, I just like having the right to say it.

--

"She was barely a teen
hangin' out inbetween
just a part of the scene...

With mercurial smile
and incurable style
she was only a dream..."
 - Bad Religion "Sorrow"
Logged
Kristen
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 160

kayelbee37
View Profile Email
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2002, 17:04:42 »

Hi All -

Inguma -I admit I haven't read the specific papers your referring too. I'll have to do that - do you have some links?  I suppose you might have already posted them.... The point with "all nations do thus and so" is not to excuse the effects of empire building.  The point is to illustrate that America bashing is de rigueur.  Why spend time with the cheap distortion and lies available from other countries' wardrobes when you can pull something off the rack in America's closet?  This whole geopolitical dues ex machina is an entagled web - extricating America from it and waving it around like a bloody flag is just to be inaccurate.  Lets at least try looking  at the whole picture.

For example:
Ashfo - America is not the only country interested in safeguarding the supply of oil.  All industrialized countries have this interest - and get this - oil producing countries have a really vested interest in oil too.  Go figure aye?  Why do you suppose the American intervention in Kuwait was supported not only by Kuwait, but also by the Arab Emerites?  They were afraid they were next.

I have some  questions to anyone - as a world power - how do you propose that America behave responsibly toward other nations...

Should America be world cop?  Should it honor requests for military or economic intervention?  Or not?  Should it safeguard supplies of oil or not?  Should it attempt to stabalize regions of conflict?  Should it partner with European nations to affect economic growth in underdeveloped countries?   Should it become isolationist, refraining from participating in the outcome of conflicts? - Oh wait - that was what happened in WWI, and  WWII....  

The list is woefully inadequate but you get the idea - Come on folks - run the world for a day.  

Wow Eranos - I wish I were a typical American so I could afford a Lexus.  

- KB



Logged
The Astral Pulse
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2002, 17:04:42 »



 Logged
distant bell
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 270


View Profile Email
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2002, 17:43:07 »

A spanish documentary showed that the US has a training school for dictators located in the US.. This is qute an unsetteling thought. The people trainde in the US aply there deucation in latin america..
I have forgotten the exact fakts- but will try to check them up and update with a new post. After al, if it is  true, and Im afraid it is, then the US governmetn actually are outright criminals- but then agin thats not news now is it. In my opinion all governments with much power are corrupt- not only the US.
Money breeds corruption..

-- Love is the Law - Love under Will --
Logged
Frank
Astral Energy 5
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3120


View Profile
« Reply #56 on: May 27, 2002, 08:56:36 »

Kristen... "If someone looks like a stereotype to an observer - the observer is not looking closely enough." as I say, was exquisite, but, "Let's at least try looking at the whole picture"...  is the very definition of sublime.

When you boil it to the bone, it becomes obvious the incident over Kuwait was nothing more than the USA cleaning up its own mess. Having a "coalition force" was a grand tactical move. Albeit an extremely expensive one that cost US taxpayers billions of dollars. But the truth of the matter had to be camouflaged at all costs.

Right now, I'm scratching my head trying to fathom where you get some of your other ideas from: America as world cop? America running the world? I'd check your government isn't putting hallucinogens in your drinking water, if I were you.

For the past twenty years, European governments have been working in closer harmony. There is now a common currency that most EC countries have adopted. Plus, it is only a matter of time before the European Defence Force will be in place. (Much to the chagrin of Mr Bush, if all the fuss that eminated from that quarter, when the idea was first mooted, is anything to go by.)

Then it's goodbye NATO.

It is true that all governments, to some degree or another, whether currently or throughout history, have engaged in corrupt activities. However, America currently stands unique in that it uses its vast wealth and military might to fund dictatorships; arms them to the teeth, thus surpressing the voice of the people; while American corporations rape the land of natural resources at a fraction of their true value.  

Many times this 3-step plan has backfired. Resulting in some spectacular side effects that caused horrendous loss of life and destruction to property. Though, up until September 11th, 2001, it had previously caused no significant deaths of American civilian lives, or damage to their property.

For about the past two decades, there have been a growing band of people who are crying: ENOUGH. The very fact that corruption does go on, is no excuse for allowing it to continue. As a result, US political support dwindles daily.

For example, the proposed war and/or invasion of Iraq appears to have been thwarted (for at least the time being) by the staunch refusal of both the French and German governments to support such action. Non-support from the French is always expected when it comes to situations regarding the USA. But the German government have been unusually vocal in their total non-support.  

NOTE: On foreign policy the rest of the countries in the European Union generally align themselves with France and Germany.

The British government, while traditionally supportive of the US, are having to face the fact the British people are turning against the idea of a fresh war with Iraq in droves. Many of us found it rather comical (journalists in particular) watching the prime minister nodding his head to Bush's plans, whilst knowing he had virtually no real public support.

"A smile that looked like the face of a glacier suffering the effects of global warming" was one columnist's description I thought particularly apt.    

Yours,
Frank




Logged
Rob
Astral Energy 5
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1041


23969315 ingumar@hotmail.com oatinguma
View Profile
« Reply #57 on: May 27, 2002, 17:25:04 »

Kristen - the USA Patriot act can be found at:
http://www.defenselink.mil/dodgc/lrs/docs/PL10756.pdf
I have tried looking at it, but I wouldn't advise anyone else to bother - it is a huge pile of legal garbage to me

However for more informed info, and I haven't read much on this site, just stumbled over it, go to:
http://www.freeexpression.org/patriot.htm

Please realise though that I am not trying to bash america, more state how things are (or may be). America should not be world cop, and history proves this, when most times america has intervened militarily the end result is usually chaos, suffering and some sort of totalitarian regime. Take Sierra Leone as a good example, the head there installed by the US (and I believe, British), the end result = genocide. There should not be any world cops, countries should be allowed to decide on their own form of government, not just what the US approves of. Eg Cuba has a better child death rate AND life expectancy than America, yet still they are percieved as red scum and shunned. Let it go and let them be!
(however I am not saying countries should never be interfered with, only that it should be done with care and the actions decided on by a collection of responsible countries, if such an entity could exists)

Frank I am not sure what the EU has to do with this am afraid, at the moment we are divided and for as long as that lasts (at least another 10+years) we will not be as strong as America. Thus the US really is the biggest player on the world stage, and so they tend to do what they like.

 
Logged

(!!!Formerly known as Inguma!!!)
You are the Alpha and the Omega. You are vaster than the universe and more powerful than a flaring supernova. You are truly incredible!!
Kristen
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 160

kayelbee37
View Profile Email
« Reply #58 on: May 27, 2002, 18:46:32 »

Hi All -

Frank - how old are you and what's your educational background? If you don't want to answer I respect that, I just think that before I respond to your posts it might be a good idea for me to know for certain.

Hi Inguma - I appreciate the links and will give them a look-see....  

The dynamic you are referring to regarding ouside involvement in a people's/countries'  internal or indiginous affairs is certainly true for any country and across human history.   In recent history, the entire course of outside involvement in Vietnam is an excellent example of this - taking it a bit further back, so is the history of European/Western involvement in India, and Africa, as well as the Americas.

I would add, that in cases where any country or coalition of countires act as an intervening force - that its not like pulling apart two little kids who are beating each other up and sending them to their respective corners without dinner for causing an obnoxious disturbance.  Civil unrest and war is complicated, messy and sick.  It was sick and messy, it is sick and messy and will continue to be sick and messy in the future.  The forces that were at work before an intervention, are at work during it, and after it.  Just because America or any other country gets into the middle of something doesn't mean that there was not something already there to be gotton into the middle of, and that it won't exist when that country leaves.  To say that America or any other country is the first cause of strife in any other country's affairs' is to put no  responsiblity for agency on the governments or the populaces of the countries themselves.  

By the way, have you studied the politics of the world wars, and are you familiar with the UN?

For the record, Bush's push to invade Iraq again is in my opinion politically assinine.  I wish Cheney would sometimes just put duct tape over his mouth and hide him in a closet.  



Logged
ralphm
Astral Energy 4
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 634



View Profile Email
« Reply #59 on: May 28, 2002, 00:58:51 »

as a us citizen i would definately be more of a isolationist, seems like we were going that way after vietnam. recently a past secretary of state gave a talk at uc-davis and was asked about our support of a dictator who had a poor record of  treating his people justly and the sec. of state said he was the lesser of two evils.  seems like that is still supporting EVIL.we should not be manipulating other countries.

 
Logged

In the world in general and in this nation
May not even the names disease, famine, war, and suffering be heard.
May virtuous qualities, merit, and prosperity greatly increase
And may continuous good fortune and subline well-being perfectly arise.
Ashfo
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 217

5336431
View Profile Email
« Reply #60 on: May 28, 2002, 04:20:50 »

I'm getting a little sick of this thread to be honest...

Kristen to me it seems you are grasping at straws. Of course the US hasn't personally started every conflict in recent times, but they have contributed hugely to several of the largest and many of the smaller.

In terms of your question - what should the US do with their wealth and power - I give you this answer:

To help their poor fellow human beings who are starving to death by the millions and have no way to rectify the situation themselves. To support all forms of advancement, be it scientific or spiritual, rather than suppress much of the information that is coming out about sciences like cold fusion because of their materialistic wants, e.g oil. To help those they have made suffer in countries such as Indonesia - which should, by rights, be one of the richest countries in the world because of their large mineral deposits and location in the world. Instead its one of the poorest because of globalization.

Blech.

- Ashfo

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"You are First Cause. You are a portion of the great energy. And you, yourselves are thought manifestations of what you think you are."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Logged
Frank
Astral Energy 5
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3120


View Profile
« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2002, 07:48:18 »



I spent last evening flipping through the Patriot Act. Darned scary if you ask me. They obviously must have had the bulk of the text already waiting in the wings and just needed the right depth of excuse.

And what a title: perhaps more apt would be something like "Emergency Powers and Procedures Act" or something to that effect. But no, they called it a Patriot Act. Thus having the effect of locking the masses into an emotive bind from square one.

Yours,
Frank



 
Logged
alfa_33au
Astral Energy 2
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 60


View Profile Email
« Reply #62 on: May 28, 2002, 20:52:38 »

The funny side,

They say that illusion takes form, changes and disolves, and that reality always exists.
We are masters of illusion, and have all agreed to participate.

And the greatest illusion is that some have more than others and the war begins.
All the details are just the intensity level of the illusion.
The death and destruction serves a purpose, creates a need to try another method en mass.
Death they say is also an illusion, and when i obe, i feel i can survive outside my body.
So who is killing who?

Lets get out of that energy.
Paola.
Logged
Kristen
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 160

kayelbee37
View Profile Email
« Reply #63 on: May 29, 2002, 01:05:42 »

Hi Ashfo -

Oh well... its been nice arguing with you : ).  If you feel like debating politics again I have one prerequisite request.... stay interested and curious.... If only because it looks to me like somewhere in there behind the cold fusion loop, you've got a a trillion other brain cells just begging to get a go http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_shock.gif" border=0>

Take care,

Kristen

 
Logged
PeacefulWarrior
Astral Energy 5
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1189


The best medicine is the display of compassion.


View Profile Email
« Reply #64 on: May 29, 2002, 05:44:16 »

Hey!  Every once in a while I have to come and check in on the little monster I've created!

Anyway, I was just thinking about something the other day: what if we enjoyed "world peace?"  One things for sure, we would all have enough food....easily.  I don't know the stats (maybe someone else could enlighten us with details) but it's something like one state in the US could feed half of the world population if it had to.  I may be over-exaggerating grossly, but I do know that for the last five decades or so the US gov't has had to subsidize farmers because of the fact that we can simply produce more than enough food to feed our country.

 I agree that the US should do more to help those citizens of other nations, and the gov't (we?) should do a lot less of the negative things we do outside the US that involve violence and decpetion in the name of self-interest, BUT the main thing is this: the leaders of most of those countries who need the most help and who are in the deepest have leaders who are CORRUPT and HOPELESS.  I remember when I was in junior high my friends and I would say things like, "We should just go take over in all of the those third world countries and make them be like us..."  Of course this was faulty thinking on my behalf, but what obligation does the US, UK, Australia, Germany and every other first world country have towards these people?  What do we do to help them?

For those of you who are against the US meddling in the affairs of countries in which genocide and violence runs rampant think the US should do?  Should we let people like Milosevich (I probably misspelled his name) go off and murder hundreds or even thousands of people?  

Where can we do today, this month, this year to help out places like Kenya and Sierra Leone?  


fides quaerens intellectum
Logged

We shall not cease from our exploration, and at the end of all our exploring, we shall arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.
T.S. Elliot
---------------
fides quaerens intellectum
Ashfo
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 217

5336431
View Profile Email
« Reply #65 on: May 30, 2002, 09:44:56 »

Heh, well Kristen if you want to discuss the Sept 11 events I'd love to...

Go back and refute my claims, and let the war begin!

 Tongue

I was just getting bored of the yay-America boo-America tit-tat discussion Smiley

- Ashfo

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"You are First Cause. You are a portion of the great energy. And you, yourselves are thought manifestations of what you think you are."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Logged
Kristen
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 160

kayelbee37
View Profile Email
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2002, 01:20:35 »

Hi Ashfo -

Good!  Remind me of your premise - do I have it right, that your postition is that  the events of Sept. 11 were puppeteered by Bush and/ or by some American national entity?  Or am I completely misreading you?  (also - I'm in a busy time right now - so bear with me as I try to find the time to check your sources).... please enlighten me with further links or readings....

Re the yeah America Boo America thing - please don't confuse my posts as defense of America.... feel free to confuse them as being attempts at painting a broad brushed perspective of underlying intricately intertwined patterns of human behavior existing from the beginning of recorded history irrespective of national boundaries.  Current political events can be understood as being historically "necessitated." To pull current events out of their context is to "truncate the range."  America is certainly not blameless as Daniel points out.  It most certainly plays the field it is in possession of.

As a relevent aside, (interesting to me at least - I chuckled).   There recently was a political cartoon printed in my local paper wherein a group of stylistically Darwinian  fish were taking their first steps onto dry land - two of the fish were beligerently sticking their tongues out at each other and one of the fish, (obviously irritated)  in the group turned around said something like "cut that out you guys!"  The punchline is that the narration of the cartoon was something like - " the beginnings of the Mideast conflict."

Here's a nice quote:  "A rational being belongs to the realm of ends as a member when he gives universal laws in it while also himself subject to these laws.
 - Foundations of the Metaphysics of Morals Immanuel Kant  

Here's another question - Can a government by definition of its purpose enforce universal laws without breaking them?  In other words, are governments truly capable of being rational?  Let us assume that the definition of government includes the securing of an ideological agency.

KB

 
Logged
ralphm
Astral Energy 4
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 634



View Profile Email
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2002, 03:55:44 »

i do not think that one government can enforce universal laws. that is the problem now the u.s. is trying to be the judge and enforcer of this new world order without giving proof of who actually is responsible for 9/11. so a lot of people around the world are questioning why kill innocent people in poor countries and how is it really going to solve the problem? i think it just gives the evil ones more chances to recruit more oppressed people to get the crusades going again.

 
Logged

In the world in general and in this nation
May not even the names disease, famine, war, and suffering be heard.
May virtuous qualities, merit, and prosperity greatly increase
And may continuous good fortune and subline well-being perfectly arise.
Ashfo
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 217

5336431
View Profile Email
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2002, 04:26:02 »

quote:
Originally posted by Kristen:
Hi Ashfo -

Good!  Remind me of your premise - do I have it right, that your postition is that  the events of Sept. 11 were puppeteered by Bush and/ or by some American national entity?  Or am I completely misreading you?  (also - I'm in a busy time right now - so bear with me as I try to find the time to check your sources).... please enlighten me with further links or readings....



Right. I'm not saying they are actually pro-America, infact its unlikely, but they have some power within the US either as a secret government or a public position. Bush is a puppet and an actor.

http://www.attackonamerica.net
http://www.mycountryrightorwrong.net
http://www.9112001.net
http://www.september112001.net

 
quote:

Here's another question - Can a government by definition of its purpose enforce universal laws without breaking them?  In other words, are governments truly capable of being rational?  Let us assume that the definition of government includes the securing of an ideological agency.



Depends if you take the current legal system as being what the government tries to enforce. Depends if you take a Capitalist government or a Communist government. But does it really matter? I know you will argue "oh, so of course the US government is breaking its own laws, it simply has to." And even if that is so, does it have to break its own laws to the extent of killing 3000 of its own people and destroying the two largest buildings in NYC? Even if it was the government in the first place... which is unlikely.

- Ashfo


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"You are First Cause. You are a portion of the great energy. And you, yourselves are thought manifestations of what you think you are."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Logged
Mobius
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 404


View Profile Email
« Reply #69 on: May 31, 2002, 06:33:32 »

G,day guys

Hey Ashfo, not sure if it's my computer but I can't get onto the links you posted, I know they exist as I have been onto the attack on america link before, so probably is my computer, no-one else had a problem?

Kristen, I remember reading that quote by Kant, but havn't got the book now, are you able to put the paragraph that was before that quote & the one after that quote, I love Kants work, but sometimes it sounds like rhetoric that can be a bit confusing. Also have you got any URL's that I/we might not have come across that supports your view, always good to see another point of view.

Looks like Bush has enough trouble from his political opponents at the moment, who I,m sure would love to see him go down, so we will see some interesting backstabbing going on soon it seems.

Good journeys all

Mobius

 
Logged
Kristen
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 160

kayelbee37
View Profile Email
« Reply #70 on: June 01, 2002, 01:46:21 »

Hi All -

Mobius - unfortunately I haven't been using the internet for resources for the views I've stated - I've been using highschool, college, history/philosophy/political textbooks, literature of all kinds - fact, ficition, biographies, newspapers, news commentary, documentaries, etc... as well as remembered lived experience, some second-hand tales from folks who've been there (my dad was a career Airforce officer/my husband was an enlisted Army man for a short stint - was in Panama and Kuwait) plus I've been alive for a bit of time and travelled just a bit and known lots of folks and seen a few sights.... I can't really dredge it all up and site it concretely http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_blush.gif" border=0>  

Re the links - I'm getting dns errors - the last two are Astraldynamics urls?

The Kant quote you've requested is long.... and I think your memory is serving you well if you are about to go where I think you might with this...

"By "realm" I understand the systematic union of different rational beings through common laws.  Because laws determine ends with regard to their universal validity, if we abstract from the personal difference of rational beings and thus from all content of their private ends, we can think of a whole of all ends in systematic connection,  a whole of rational beings as ends in themselves as well as of the particualr ends which each may set for himself.  This is a realm of ends, which is possible on the aforesaid principles.  For all rational beings stand under the law that each of them should treat himself and all others never merely as means but in every case also as an end in himself.  Thus there arises a systematic union of rational beings through common objective laws.  This is  a realm which may be called a realm of ends (certainly only an ideal),  because what these laws have in view is just the relation of these beings to each other as ends and means.

A rational beings belongs to the reallm of ends as a member when he gives universal laws in it while also himself subject to these laws.  He belongs to it as sovereign when he, as legistlating, is subject to the will of no other.  The rational being must regard himself always as legistlative in a realm of ends possible through the freedom of the will, whether he belongs to it as member or as sovereign.  He cannot maintain the latter position merely through the maxims of his will but only when he is a completely independent being without need and with power adequate to his will.

Morality, therefore, consists in the relation of every action to that legislation through which alone a realm of ends is possible.  This legislation, however, must be found in every rational being.  It must be able to arise from his will, whose principle then is to do no action according to any maxim which would be inconsistent with its being a universal law and thus to act  only so that the will through its maxims could regard itself at the same time as universally lawgiving.  If now the maxims do not by thier nature already necessarily conform to this objective principle of rational beings as universally lawgiving, the necessity of acting according to that principle is called practical constraint, i.e., duty.  Duty pertains not to the sovereign in the realm of ends, but rather to each member, and to each in the same degree.

Ralphm - by "this new world order," do you mean the "war against terrorism?"

Ashfo - I actually came across some bits of opinion that sound like pieces of truth to me -  that what the American administration was doing prior to 9/11 was attempting to  negotiate  with the Taliban in order to place an oil pipeline in Afghanistan - interesting if true if we are going to suppose that information regarding terrorist threats were being suppressed rather than not taken seriously enough - an old school airplane highjacking might be viewed by some organizations as acceptable risk or loss - although I don't have the political imagination to figure why suppressing such info would be helpful.

Here's another quote -

SOCR.  And do you mean to say, Eurthyphro, that you think that you understand divine things and piety and impiety so accuralty that, in such a case as you have stated, you can bring your father to justice without fear that you yourself may be doing an impious deed?
- Euthyphro



Logged
Ashfo
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 217

5336431
View Profile Email
« Reply #71 on: June 01, 2002, 07:21:50 »

Oops.

The sites are without the astralpulse forum thing.. just www.mycountryrightorwrong.net etc etc....

dunno what it did that Smiley

- Ashfo

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"You are First Cause. You are a portion of the great energy. And you, yourselves are thought manifestations of what you think you are."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Logged
Mobius
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 404


View Profile Email
« Reply #72 on: June 01, 2002, 08:44:27 »

Thanks Kristen

I might have remembered what he was talking about there (Kant) but I forgot how intense he is & the size of the paragraph's. So sorry for asking you to type that up while you are busy & I wont pursue philosophy on this thread as it is allready confusing enough trying to work out the real reasons & motives the perpetrators of 9/11 might have had.

Ahh, ok Ashfo, will give those links another try.

Australia is doing it's bit in trying to secure oil assets too & recently held ceremonies for the Nauru people, smiling & pretending to be real mates to the Nauru people, but never seem to discuss the fact that Australia has dumped refugees on the Nauru people & convinced them somehow to let them have control of it's oil deposits. Sure, they probably don't have the means to set up their own oil platforms & will get pay off's for Australia having access to their oil fields, but I wonder how many of them know who will benefit out of this deal the most, or maybe they can't do anything about it & are just being bullied into towing the line. Another bit of trivia, I heard on the radio a couple of days ago that said something like Nauru had the most amount of banks per capita in the world & had something like 1 bank for every 10 people, another little tax haven.

Good journeys all

Mobius



 
Logged
Tisha
Astral Energy 5
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1207


View Profile
« Reply #73 on: June 01, 2002, 23:57:02 »

Folks,

I just spent the afternoon reading this thread.  Probably a weird way to spend a lovely Saturday evening, but I had to see what all the fuss was about.

It's obvious from the length of this thread that so many of us felt 9/11 deeply enough to want to express themselves about it . . . but it's also obvious to me that none of us are going to get anywhere by reading conspiracy theories, blaming people or countries, spouting political opinions, dueling with half-facts, or quoting the philosophical rants of dead people.  And all I can say as an U.S. citizen is . . . The United States is the only country where most of the poor people are FAT.  Think hard about what that means, for better and for worse.

I became a BBC and  National Public Radio junkie after the 9/11 attack, trying to understand and put the whole awful event into perspective.    I'm very close to this event and feel its repercussions every day. The only way, I've concluded, that we as individuals can reconcile this horrible reality is to look in the mirror at ourselves, and CHANGE OURSELVES.  

Because, trite as it sounds, every adult is responsible for the circumstances he or she finds him/herself in (i.e. you create reality, trite-but-true).   Pointing fingers at "them"  is an immature, non-spiritual way of looking at reality.  Them is YOU.  Yes, YOU are responsible for this post-9/11 world.  Even you over there  in Sweden.

I looked in the mirror tonight and cringed.  I am embarrassed now at how I pointed my fingers in disgust at the gas-guzzling SUVs driving up and down the NJ Parkway with American flags waving on their antennae . . . driven by stupid Americans who had no CLUE that their SUV said worlds more than their flags ever could.  Because I'm probably no better than they are . . . and neither are any of you . . . no matter what country you are from, because you created this reality too.

So, if you can at least accept that there is no "THEM" to blame, NOW what are you going to do with your lives?  For instance:

a)  you criticize Middle East policies . . . but how many miles per gallon does YOUR car get?   How many miles do you drive per year, and do you WHINE when the price of gas goes up?

b)  How do your daily behaviors, i.e, your shopping habits, your eating habits, your voting habits, your drug (?) habits . . .  put money in Al Qaida's pockets, directly or indirectly?

c) you criticize America . . . what of the corruption and evil that surrounds you in your hometown?  What are you doing about it?

d)  you say your butter tastes like chemicals and water . . . but do you buy it anyway? Do you, ugh, EAT it?

e) You are horrified by that creepy naked chicken on TV . . . but do you buy the cheapest chicken on the market with no thought to how it was bred or fed?  If so, soon you will be EATING creepy naked chickens.  Stick your nose in the air and call yourself a vegetarian, and I will ask you where your vegetables come from.  Do you know?

f) you despise politicians, and criticize what they do,  but have you ever told one how you felt?

g)  You say you hate corporate greed.  What do you do for a living?  Feed the corporate greed that you say you hate?  Do you buy their products?

h) when was the last time you did something to help the only true innocents this world has . . . children, animals, the environment?

I so enjoy getting responses to my posts . . . they're so rewarding! . . . but I think I'd be even happier to see this thread end in favor of a NEW topic (separate post). . . what are we doing to align our behaviors to our beliefs? What are we doing to CHANGE our this reality?  

Tisha

 
Logged

Tisha
steveb
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 121


View Profile Email
« Reply #74 on: June 02, 2002, 04:11:06 »

Well  Tisha, what can I say, I was halfway through writing a post with answers for your A-H statements/questions and i just deleted it. I know what I do. The important thing is you know what you have to do.

Regards  Steve

 
Logged
The Astral Pulse
   



 Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums


The Astral Pulse Copyright 2002 - 2014
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS! Dilber MC Theme by HarzeM