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Author Topic: Robert and Sai Baba  (Read 3734 times)
Fenris
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« on: July 16, 2002, 06:08:20 »

We have had this discussion and it ended like this.

From Roberts post

In closing this conversation, I would also have to say that the experience I had with Sathya Sai Baba, where he materialized before me (I was awake and my eyes were wide open) does not support said allegations to be real. The ability to do such a thing is a highly advanced spiritual act. I would have put it down to wishful-thinking causing a desire-based hallucination, if I had been a devotee. But I was not then, nor am I now or have ever been, a Baba devotee. At the time of this experience, I had barely even heard of Baba. (A friend of mine had shown me a book and some pictures, and a video, of Baba, several months earlier, that's all). In matters like this, I must follow my personal experience and my heart. So, I choose not to believe that the slander leveled against Baba has any truth behind it. It just does not fit the personality and aura of the wonderful being who materialized before me that day.



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MadJack
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« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2002, 06:38:36 »

Fenris

Fine - I had no idea it'd been mulled over elsewhere in the forums. I understand Mr Bruce's answer, but it changes little. He is sure, I have no idea. Then there's the other point - suppose the allegations are true and yet Mr Bruce did experience what he says - what then?

 
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« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2002, 06:38:36 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Ashfo
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« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2002, 07:27:35 »

ey Jack, thought I may as well respond to a fellow countryman.

I spent awhile looking into the Sai Baba conspiracy and came to the conclusion that that's just what it is - a conspiracy - set-up by who or for what I dont know, but you must look deeply into the subject if you want a real understanding.

If both are real - something I think untrue - then perhaps Sai Baba is inhabited by two spirits, the reincarnation of Sathya and the original man. Who knows?

- Ashfo

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distant bell
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« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2002, 15:22:09 »

I still think that Sathya sai baba is a .........
I will not go further into this.
But just look at a picture of him!

Btw, I am still utterly disgusted buy the whole indian thing.
swami.. his divine grace... PLEAS!

stop crwaling for the feet of self imposed masters!

Dosn´t the indian people have any dignit?

What would you do if Robert Bruce would demand to be called His divine grace, swami and guru??
Or any other spiritual guy in the west..

He would be caled a pompus a-hole

Frater Felix

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Fenris
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« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2002, 03:17:41 »

"suppose the allegations are true and yet Mr Bruce did experience what he says - what then?"

The question being raised here is more concerning Robert Bruce's integrity rather than Sai Baba's. Regardless of what Sai Baba is or is not I find myself strongly opposed to insinuations that Robert is involved with child molestation or any other such hideous things. Robert is a family man who clearly dedicates a vast amount of his time to sharing what he has learned to help others advance spiritually. Robert does not seek to be considered a guru or a great spiritual leader; he has earned his following through a genuine commitment to helping others.

I like many here have a great deal of respect for Robert Bruce if you are not here to learn, or not here to teach and you have no respect for the forums owner then why are you here?


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« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2002, 03:17:41 »



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astralc
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« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2002, 07:46:45 »

MadJack

I contributed to the discussion Fenris alluded to. At first I wanted to know as much as I could before I gave my poinion, so I visited the sites listed, explored the research on sexual preditors and applied my experience of working with victims of sexual preditors.

I gave my opinion that Sai Baba, guru and GodHead to his devotees, may very well be one of these peditors. However, for Fenris to bring Robert's name into question is totally unconscionable. Robert has never been accused or possibly could be accused of sexual abuse in any form, Fenris, please, re-read the thread.

"The question being raised here is more concerning Robert Bruce's integrity rather than Sai Baba's. Regardless of what Sai Baba is or is not I find myself strongly opposed to insinuations that Robert is involved with child molestation or any other such hideous things."

Fenris - Robert's integrity or credibility is not the issue, and I would ask that you please retract this comment.

We all have the right to question Robert's expriences, comments and responses to posts, but that is the nature of a forum, to question and critique. If Robert saw what he saw, so what? If he believes he saw sai baba, so what? he is as entitled to his opinion as we are. Just because Robert wrote a book doesn't mean that he has set himself up as a guru, and he has never, to my knowledge, sought devotees or to be given special godhead graces. He comes across as human and fallible as the rest of us.

I am rather concerned that an innocent bystander has been dragged into a debate such as this.

Astralc

"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Ashfo
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« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2002, 09:12:42 »

astralc, what site"s" are you referring to?

Just sathyasaivictims.com?

I dont want to sound silly, but thats a tad biased Tongue

Oh well, off for the weekend....

Toodles

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MadJack
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« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2002, 10:28:37 »

Fenris

I'd like to make it very clear I am not making any connection between Mr Bruce, his day to day life and the type of the allegations against Sai Baba.

My issue is that the allegations against Sai Baba appear at the least credible, yet Mr Bruce claims to have been visited by him and that therefore the allegations cannot be be true. This is a bind. Mr Bruce also claims to be able to 'astrally project' and 'walk with angels, and think in ways that even I don't understand."

Apart from the testimonies (which obviously can't be verified), there are videos which clearly show Baba performing sleight of hand tricks. While this doesn't disprove Baba's divinity, it does point up doubts. Given what's been revealed about the churches recently and peoples' credulity in general, I have to be skeptical and therefore don't believe Baba is what he is made out to be. But then Mr Bruce claims to have seen him....

"Robert does not seek to be considered a guru or a great spiritual leader; he has earned his following through a genuine commitment to helping others.."

Re the above; that's generally what my impression browsing through his website has been as well. But then he does have an (extensive) website and two books in print. True, there's always the argument 'if you don't like it, change the channel". Then again there's the argument that if you seek to create or contribute to public discourse, you have an inherent burden of truthfulness.

Understand that a lot of what he says makes sense to me. My limited experience with deeply relaxed states and the one or two 'odd' experiences I've had seem to match up with his advice in a lot of ways. And I'm interested in what he has to say. But I always come back to the fantastical 'meeting Sai Baba' passage. Because frankly, I don't believe it.

 
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Tom
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« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2002, 14:42:17 »

One of my teachers had a visit from Sai Baba also. This was while out of body. He was asked if he wanted to move along or go back to his body. My teacher, fortunately for me, chose to return. His wife probably would not have been happy to find him sitting dead in the half-lotus. He told me that he answered that he was not ready to leave and that Sai Baba laughed. As for me, I have never seen Sai Baba, even in photographs or drawings. My mother gave me a small sample of ash that Sai Baba materialized. That is my only connection. If Sai Baba is a divine being who materializes objects and visits people, then I should do something with that ash other than keeping it sitting around gathering dust. If Sai Baba is a criminal, then maybe I want to put the ash in the trash. My teacher and Robert Bruce both met Sai Baba and reported back favorably. If I read a few web sites, conclude that Sai Baba is a criminal, and toss the ash then I have not just wasted an opportunity. I would have decided that my teacher and Robert Bruce were wrong about Sai Baba, to put it mildly, and would have made a statement about their judgment.

Fenris, please do not retract your statement or apologize in any way for speaking openly here. I will not say it was wrong to ask you to retract your statement. These are not contradictory perspectives. We must all be free to say anything which crosses our mind.


 
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distant bell
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« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2002, 17:33:20 »

Fenris- up til now I have always considered your posts to be wery good and interesting.. so what you just wrote starled me. If Bruce claims to have seen Sai Baba, and Sai Baba is a fake- what then? Yes, what then?
I canno´t se how this this possibly could be interpreted as Bruce abusing children.
It only means what it sais- what then?

well.. He might be wrong- perhaps he only saw something and interpreted it as Sai baba... perhpas it was really Sai Baba- why should not a guy who knows how to travell astraly be able to lead a queer life?
Ever heard of black magickians?

There might be a thousand reasons...

People usually see what they expect to see.

Bruce said that he had seen a video of Sai Baba before ho got the vision.
I know what my teacher in religios psychology would have said about that.
In almoust all visions it is possible to trace the images back to images and symbols that people already know. You will NEVER have a vision of krsihan if you never have seen him, the same goes for jesus, mary Sai Baba and
al other things you might see.

And yeas- this happens to be a fact... And Yes, I HAVE studyed the psychology of religion and visions at the university.

study some psychology my friend!

Why do you think that people living in catholic countrys get visions of mary, and Hindus se Krishna? Because it actually pgysicall is Mary or Krishna?
I think not- It seems more logical that we choos in what form we cloth the the things we se when they happen to be of non physicall form.

There is one interesting case, a guy in India who searched for religious identity in the indian religions and the veda. He got a vision of Jesus and converted. Now he had been in contact with christianity through missionarys.
So he had knew the christian symbols, and he new HOW Jesus should look.
And he is one of the few indians who have gotten a vision of Jesus.. the rest of them usually se Krishan or some of his kin.


Frater Felix

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Fenris
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« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2002, 03:14:25 »

People put down your swords!

Some of you have not read my post as it was ment to read, it makes sence to me but it is obviously not clear so please allow me to clarify!

Ok my interpretation of Madjacks raising of this topic and posting was that he had made up his mind about Sai Baba and by Robert being associated with him Roberts integrity was in question

To quote Madjack
"suppose the allegations are true and yet Mr Bruce did experience what he says - what then?"

I am obviously the only person who interpreted this as a challenge to Roberts integrity, it can be interpreted in many ways. Now if you understand that this is how I interpreted it and read my last post you will see that what I posted was in the compleate defence of Robert.

My statement that Roberts integrity was the issue not Sai Babas was made because from my interpretation of Madjacks posts (prior to his clarification) as it seemed he was in laymens terms saying "Well if Sai Baba is a childmolester and Robert holds him in such a hight place then whats that make Robert?" So to clarify my statement I was implying that Madjack was not meaning to discuss the integrity of Sai Baba but rather Roberts. Make sence now?

In essence my interpretation of Madjacks posts (which apparently was off the mark) led me to feel about him and respond to him in the same way your interpretation of my posting has you to respond to me. My post was entierly in responce to the statement I quoted at its begining.

Madjack - thank you for the clarification

astralc and distant bell- no disrespects but I dont feel you read my post fully. I can understand that if you did not realise my statement was  about Madjacks comment I quoted at the begining then the first sentence of my post would have made you gasp. However the other four sentances should have made it abundantly clear that I was in no way questioning Roberts integrity but rather defending it. Please re read my post.

To quote myself
"I find myself strongly opposed to insinuations that Robert is involved with child molestation or any other such hideous things"

how does one miss read that any way?

MORE EXAMPLES

"Robert is a family man who clearly dedicates a vast amount of his time to sharing what he has learned to help others advance spiritually. Robert does not seek to be considered a guru or a great spiritual leader; he has earned his following through a genuine commitment to helping others."

Now does this sound like a post that was questioning Roberts integrity or defending it?

For what its worth I entered into this thread only because I felt Robert was being criticised. I dont know much about Sai Baba and I dont really care much either but Ill give him the benefit of the doubt if Robert states that he is a good man, he hasnt led me wrong yet.


I hope I have cleared this up, unfortunatley it is very easy to mis interperate posts sometimes. Is there any critisism I have earned from my post I have not cleared up?

regards

Fenris

Veni Vidi Vici
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distant bell
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« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2002, 11:42:05 »

Fenris, I understod your post like a defence for robert Bruce integrity.
What I reacted on was this- Why the defenc? At least my intepretation of MadJacks post was this- If Bruce sais he has seen sai Baba and sai baba is a fake, Might Bruce be wrong on other points to? Surely this would not need defence! I see that as a legitimate question.

That was my personal reaction to Roberts statement about Sai Baba.
I reacted in the same way as MadJack. But still I do belive that much
of what Bruce says is wery valid and true. And subjektively it surely
is true.

I don´t think anybody, Madjack included, would question Bruce integrity, rather perhaps question the objective truth of the meeting with Sai Baba.
I am sure that Robert Bruce tells the truth- how ever this dosn´t meen that it actually was Sai Baba that showed himselfe for Robert. It might have been something taking on the form of Sai Baba.

And I think with the accusation on Sai Baba, which seem pretty valid to me, one perhaps should ask that question...

If I would meet a hig spirit on the astral plane, how would I percive it?

After all, ewery time you see something new on any plane, you try to put it into a form that you know. A humanoid, a fish´, a mamal..
The mind cannot grasp totaly new things.
And on the astral plane where things are not material... who knows how
they REALLY look ? Perhaps we give form to or interpretate al things there?

I have tryed to start a discussion on this before but never gotten any replies..
Is this such a unconfortable question? - or is it just not interesting to anybody but me?  

I would like your oppinion on this Fenris. You seem to have a pretty sharp
mind when it comes to these things. And you know alot about these things- so I would value your opinion.

Ps. I never intended to draw a swor- If I happend to draw one it was not my intention.



Frater Felix

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MadJack
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« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2002, 23:51:27 »

Distant Bell

Thanks for your post - you put my point across very well.

I was reading the posts in the forum, and I came across one person's experience where he explained that talking to people 'astrally' didn't seem to involve all the 'crappy' feelings he experiences during 'real life'.

Mr Bruce explains in his treatise's that the gap between lucid dreams and OOBE's is paper thin and that in going on an OOBE, you've effectively entered a world of smoke and mirrors, where if you're not careful, your mind will construct what you're expecting to see.

People who've attempted verification of their OOBE's (there are postings from one woman who is attempting to verify cards), seem to report that the harder they concentrate, the more uncertain  the results.

It's apparently very possible to go on an OOBE, and to shortly thereafter forget it as you would a dream.

 And finally, Mr Bruce tells us that he had been shown a photo, book and video of Sai Baba a month before the visitation.

I'm of the opinion that Sai Baba most likely is a fake - so I'm left with two alternatives; Mr Bruce made up the Sai Baba story, or that the 'visitation' was not so separate from his state of mind as he believes.

 
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kakkarot
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« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2002, 03:03:57 »

everybody is human. no matter how "spiritually evolved" or "enlightened" they may be, everybody (at least everybody i have ever seen) has "personal demons" to confront. baba could be a very spiritual person with the ability to project and "stuff" (quite the technical term, eh?  Smiley  ) but still be evil. who in the world can possibly say that evil people can't astral project and use magick and talk to other telepathically, etc just like good people can. after all, i can't claim infallibility but i can still use chi and ki.

maybe baba is evil (and molests people), but respects the power he has. and so when he appeared to mr bruce and asked mr bruce what he was going to do with that power, maybe he wanted to know for his own reason, rather than asking mr bruce what mr bruce might have thought was a rhetorical question with the purpose of making mr bruce think about his own life.

~kakkarot

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astralc
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« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2002, 08:08:29 »

Fenris

Sword in scabbard! Respect your post Fenris, and I have probably over reacted. Nice of you to explain it so clearly.

Astralc

"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." Ralph Waldo Emerson
www.shoal.net.au/~astralc
"The marriage of the ancient arts of astrology, taoism, tantra and the modern science of psychology."
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Fenris
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« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2002, 05:49:29 »

Thats ok astralc, its so easy to misunderstand eachother and what we are trying to say  sometimes. I always feel horrible when these tense spots arise in the forums here, I really value the friendships I have here with like minded people more than my pride in some disagreement. But in this case it was a disagreement that didnt really exist anyway! http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

We didnt realise that we were both defending the same person we look up to and we seem to have assumed the other was questioning Roberts goodness as a man, when in truth neither group in the argument was. But hey were only human!

best regards

Daivd

Veni Vidi Vici
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astralc
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« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2002, 03:21:19 »

Fenris

you put a smile on my face, yes, we are really saying the same thing but in different ways. http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0> Take care my friend.

Astralc

"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." Ralph Waldo Emerson
www.shoal.net.au/~astralc
"The marriage of the ancient arts of astrology, taoism, tantra and the modern science of psychology."
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MadJack
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« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2002, 05:37:29 »

I'm new to this website. I found it by accident, and have been fascinated with what Mr Bruce has written, in that it seems coherent and gives relevant signposts. But I came across the following, and there's something not right here;

Robert writes; 'I was sitting alone, gazing blankly at my notes while I pondered the enormous implications of my new discovery. Suddenly, and for no apparent reason, the dimensional veil rent and the brilliant-silver light of high-level spirit plane energy flooded the room. Sai Baba stepped out of this light and materialised in front of me, solid and life sized. He beamed at me, smiling and gesturing animatedly towards me, as if saying: "Now you've found it what are you going to do with it? Baba stayed visible only for about thirty seconds, but this event had a lasting effect on my work, not to mention upon myself, greatly encouraging me. '

Sai Baba has not so recently been exposed as indulging in the homosexual molestation of young men who have come into his following.  

http://www.sathyasaivictims.com/

Go to the link and decide for yourself. This doesn't come across as the actions of a living avatar. The personal accounts of people who've been molested, include one of a young man who subsequently committed suicide.

If any of these are true, what does it mean then of Robert's visitation? For me, after an initial delight in finding this website, I now have to doubt every part of it - the revelations around Sai baba are one thing, but also there's something inherently doubtful in the passage I've quoted above.

Phil Jones
New Zealand

 
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