The true costs of war

[Frank]

Adrian: The yanks don't care how much it costs to re-build Iraq, "pipeline pays all" as they say in Washington.

Consider that there are around 300,000 US & UK soldiers ready to pounce on Iraq right now... which is about the same number of homeless children living on the streets in Nairobi, Africa (I use the term "living" loosely).

Many of these children are homeless because one or both of their parents died of AIDS and a large percentage of the children are suffering the same fate. But no-one in America gives a stuff about that... because Africa is not potentially the second largest oil-producing nation in the world.  

All "they" want is to gain a high-degree of control over Iraqi fields in order to threaten the "upstart" OPEC Cartel. Which is what they have been wanting to do since the seventies.

Yours,
Frank

[Chance]

Ah Frank, there you go again!  Where would we all be without your anti-American sentiments?  You use the term yank which in and of itself is a derogatory word.  You generalize Americans as being for this war.  As demonstrations all across this great land has proved, there are more Americans who oppose this war than support it.  Please refrain from such comments.  I find them insulting to myself, my fellow clear-minded citizens and what America truly stands for.  Freedom from oppression.  Freedom to pursue one's happiness.  And I am sure there is not one open-minded American that wants to see a single drop of blood shed!  Oh, and lest I forget, it does seem to me that Mr. Blair is fighting tooth and nail for this aggression.  So, instead of demonizing our country, how about taking aim at your own Prime Minister...Thank you in advance!!

[goingslow]

Good point.  But some can only lump all americans together.
They're incapable of realizing americans differ strongly in opinions and what we think is wrong or right.  

But people like that know america.. from reading and watching tv. *L*

[Anonymous]

The citizens of Iraq and similarly hostile countries are brainwashed by their media. It doesn't surprise me that our own country's media would try to do the same. Fore example, get this- in the NY Times newspaper (keep in mind how credible a news source they are), there was an article about a talking fish which was speaking in Hebrew about the Appocolypse and uttering warnings and commands. The newspaper interviewed the men who supposedly heard the fish, but could not interview the fish (Because it was killed and eaten for dinner). Now, one of three things is happening here- either this was printed in mockery of how gullable people are, the fish was right, or the fish was crazy. Or maybe someone was standing behind the fish stand and trying to impersonate the fish and there were some drugs involved. I'm not saying it couldn't happen- God is all-powerful- but frankly, I don't know who or what to believe anymore. We're responsible for ourselves and I don't like the fact that the governments of the world try to brainwash their citizens into hating the citizens of other countries. Has anyone here ever read George Orwell's 1984? That's what it's coming to- The invasion of privacy, the brainwashing, the conspiracies- and we allow it to happen because we're so afraid to break out of our cookie-cutter molds that society has set up for us.

[Anonymous]

I might add that my example of media brainwashing probably wasn't a very good one, but what I was trying to communicate is that just because a news source may be credible, the information they were given may not always be correct. Who does the media get thier information from? On war, they get it from government officials from both sides, and what goes on is that they point their fingers at each other and say "he's lying" or "he's wrong" or whatever. This fish story is just a rhumor as far as I can tell. I mean, only two people heard it talk? And why would anyone want to eat a talking fish, if it really did exist? In my opinion that's a really ignorant thing to do. The world's only talking fish and someone eats it for dinner. *shakes head* I think I'll go get some food and try to think myself out of existence.

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Chance

Ah Frank, there you go again!  

Yep, there I go expressing those pesky opposing opinions.

Is Yank a derogatory word? Slang, yes, in the same way as Yanks describe the British as Brits. Well, that has always been my understanding. In any event, surely it's a bit rich for a person to take such offence over a harmless little word; coming from a huge nation who is about to blow some tiny, near-defenceless country to bits, and kill god-knows however many innocent people in the process.

Er, me, anti-American? I rather suspect you are flattering yourself there matey. I'm not anti-American, I'm anti-WAR. And it doesn't take all that much brainpower to look back through recent history and realise that this seemingly never-ending fighting over oil continually leads to circumstances that make this world an ever worse place - not better.

I hear all you say about what you claim America stands for. However, it is an unfortunate fact that an ever-growing number of people in the world are developing a quite different picture. They are arguing, inter-alia, a large slice of the benefits culminating from your collective, "pursuit of happiness" are derived largely at their expense. And again, it doesn't take all that much brainpower to realise there is no magic-formula which led to America becoming the wealthiest nation on planet Earth. Yesterday, I filled my fuel-tank from near empty. It cost me the equivalent of about 75 USD. How much does it cost to fill your tank?

Not that any such logical reasoning would ever make a difference. Learned observers have long-since known that once in the grip of self-righteous passion, America swaps from democracy to near totalitarian state, under which critcism is both futile and unwise. If the events of the past week are anything to go by, it would appear this latest metamorphosis is complete.

Yours,
Frank

 

[Chance]

Frank,

I find it amusing that you use derogatory words to describe Americans and then turn around and say your not anti-American.  Flatter myself...that's a good one!   A bit of a paradox of a man eh?  That's cool.  We cherish our freedom to speak our minds.    

I find it even more amusing that you refuse to address Mr. Blairs part in all of this and from the previous post the fact that Great Britain has committed some very heinous crimes in their history.  I mean they killed Americans a couple hundred years ago for wanting to be free of their tyranny.  They wanted control and taxation of the bounty in this country and were willing to come over and kill to get it.  So again...Check into that high horse of yours, it could buck you with a realization.

I know how expensive Petrol is in your country...I bought my fair share when I travelled to and from base and around the beautiful countryside.  You want to be mad cause you pay more...Envy is one of the deadliest sins you know...Try blaming your own oil companies and the taxes imposed for your Petrol woes.

As for the pursuit of happiness...Give me a break...The vast majority of Americans pursue their happiness without causing misery for the rest of the world.  Again, more demonizing Americans and additional proof of your angst towards Americans in general.  Give us a break.  

As Ender has pointed out all this polarizing with this us and them bull is getting us nowhere.  If we don't see ourselves as Souls in search of peace and love and doing our best to embody that, we are all screwed...Britains, Americans, Iraqi's and the rest of us.

Peace to you and yours!

[Frank]

You can have a laugh at my expense, I don't mind that. It's nice being able to make people chuckle. Again, I am in no way anti-American: just anti-WAR. As regards my not talking about Tony Blair, well, when does anyone leave the cinema raving about the B-movie?

Of course, looking back through history anyone can see that loads of countries have committed all manner of atrocities throughout the ages. What I would simply suggest is that we all stop doing it. But, yet again, we are on the brink of a war fought in the name of peace. (War against terror, indeed!)

I suppose once it is all over then, yet again, we will see a US-installed puppet president; who will, yet again, be armed to the teeth by the US; which will, yet again, secure the oil flow; and no-doubt, after a decade or two we will, yet again, find ourselves in pretty much the same situation.

Wouldn't it be ironic if, by that time, there was a Bush-3.

Ultimately, I cannot fathom what it is the US is attempting to achieve. I mean, apart from annexing the world's second largest oil reserves. More death and destruction will simply lead to ever more death and destruction.

Yours,
Frank

[Chance]

The following site is a great example of the freedom to find the truth and express it we enjoy in a country that still, although barely, clutches to a document that ensures this right.  You try expressing opinions like this in other countries, Iraq for example, and you'll find you and your family imprisoned, tortured and dead.  Yet, as Americans it is our job to ensure the leaders of our country are held to task for their crimes.  And believe you me, if the media is ever turned on it's head, like it should be, we will see great shifts in US political climates.  Unfortunately mainstream press is owned and operated by greedy men who wish to fill their pockets.  Not on the truth, but the propaganda they are payed to fill our minds with.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/

As for my chuckles at your expense, I truly hope no one is charging you to write this stuff. LOL...That one is at my expense...hehe...You are the one who continues to write contradictory comments.  I just commented on the amusing quality of it.  If that insinuates that I am doing it at your expense then so be it.  And for your clarification, Brits isn't a derogatory term...When I was in the service the morons that tried to use derogatory language in connection with Britains used limey...They thought that one was quite funny.  I found all that jazz to be rather stupid.  My girlfriend at the time of my service was British.  I had a rather large amount of friends off-base, all of which I would have gladly stepped in front of a bullet protecting.  Perhaps this is part and parcel of why your continuing barrage of anti-American sentiment confounds me.  I mean, you are aware that thousands of American soldiers are on hand to help defend YOUR country, right?  And those same soldiers and their families help ensure a wonderful economy for the towns they are stationed at as well as surrounding communities!  

I gladly welcome your anti-war sentiment.  It is just what the doc ordered.  Whether you mean to move that sentiment on to Americans or not, it just seems to come out that way.  

Just wondering?  Have you heard of any of the deplorable acts Sadaam has committed against his own people?  Is all that propaganda?  During the gulf war the Iraqi soldiers were all but too excited to surrender, at least they could get something to eat.  That's right, Sadaam doesn't feed his troops very well.  He doesn't do much of anything for his people very well.  Does that give us the right to go in and take him out?  Probably not.

To continue to barrage us repeatedly with the same...OIL  WAR...OIL WAR...arguments is getting a bit old...There is much more involved here than that.  Subtle influences that ride bellow the surface of so called government leaders.  People who live in the shadows and control the events in the world through their secret orders.  And all to further their own agenda's.  Ones that if you or I were fully aware of would blow our freakin' minds...In other words stop saying things like what US is trying to achieve.  It goes well beyond that and if you meditate on it a moment you will realize it as well.

Wow, that sounded almost crazy enough to be true...Dang that William Cooper...Darn that Bill Kaysing...*Shakes fist at Oliver Stone*

[MJ-12]

as

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Chance

The following site is a great example of the freedom to find the truth and express it we enjoy in a country that still, although barely, clutches to a document that ensures this right.  You try expressing opinions like this in other countries, Iraq for example,

Tell me, why is it now, "Iraq for example". Why not the myriad of other countries on this planet that regularly torture ordinary citizens for daring to express their heartfelt opinions?

Ah, entrance the 50-odd year, "oil equation". Not surprising such talk is getting more than a bit old. And there's more than me who are heartily sick of it. God knows how many people have suffered as a result of it, and lord knows how many have yet to suffer.

So, yet again, we have the spectacle of the USA protecting its oil interests. Yet again, we have the spectacle of the USA correcting its puppet-president cock-ups. Yet again, innocent people are set to die a horrid death as a result. Yet again, all the right-thinking people on this planet become ever more tired of having to endure such lameness.

When you boil it to the bone, if Iraq's primary export potential were carrots... none of you in the USA would give a stuff.

Yours,
Frank

PS

And yet again, I am not anti-USA... I am anti-WAR.

[Adrian]

Greetings everyone!

quote:Originally posted by Frank

quote:Originally posted by Chance

The following site is a great example of the freedom to find the truth and express it we enjoy in a country that still, although barely, clutches to a document that ensures this right.  You try expressing opinions like this in other countries, Iraq for example,

Tell me, why is it now, "Iraq for example". Why not the myriad of other countries on this planet that regularly torture ordinary citizens for daring to express their heartfelt opinions?

Ah, entrance the 50-odd year, "oil equation". Not surprising such talk is getting more than a bit old. And there's more than me who are heartily sick of it. God knows how many people have suffered as a result of it, and lord knows how many have yet to suffer.

So, yet again, we have the spectacle of the USA protecting its oil interests. Yet again, we have the spectacle of the USA correcting its puppet-president cock-ups. Yet again, innocent people are set to die a horrid death as a result. Yet again, all the right-thinking people on this planet become ever more tired of having to endure such lameness.

When you boil it to the bone, if Iraq's primary export potential were carrots... none of you in the USA would give a stuff.

Yours,
Frank

PS

And yet again, I am not anti-USA... I am anti-WAR.

I really must echo Frank's sentiments on the eve of this pending abhorrent lunacy that is about to be unleashed on the world - not just Iraq. By this time tomorrow, there will alot of unecessary additional suffering, as if there isn't enough in the world already.

Make no mistake this is overtly about oil, but behind the scenes, and driving this situation, like 9/11, are dark forces that are very powerful and very deadly. Bush has no idea what he is about to unleash on his country and the world.

All this talk about "weapons of mass destruction" is a joke! Pakistan has nuclear weapons for example, and harbours terrorists, including possible Bin-Laden himself - you don't see Bush and Blair invading Pakistan or India for that matter do you? North Korea is not only dangerous, and has nuclear weapons, but it is publicly testing them before the world! When is Bush going to send his Yellow Sea fleet to "disarm" that country? And for that matter - the USA and Britain has weapons of mass destruction, who is going to disarm them?

This is not just about dictators and attrocities either. The neighbours of the USA - the South American countries, until recently were almost all led by dictators and militrary "juntas" etc., and who committed terrible attrocities. There are many other countries in the world where attrocities are being perpetrated every day - e.g. the African countries - look what happened to the people of Rwanda - wholesale slaughter of men, women and children. The hypocrisy on the part of Bush (and Blair) is absolutely overwhelming! They talk about attrocities, and yet they are about spend over a trillion dollars on bombs, missiles and all of the other paraphernalia of warfare, and on rebuilding after they have blown everything to pieces, while the starvation, terror, misery and attrocities continue unabated elsewhere in the world.

The fact is  - Bush knows very well that the "grateful" Iraqi people will owe a debt of gratitude, and of course Bush will be delighted to help them "manage" their huge oil reserves, providing of course it all arrives in the USA and the countries of it's allies. People in the USA think $1.70 for a gallon of gas is expensive - we pay $5!

The most worrying thing however behind all of this are the dark forces at work in probably the most critical time in our history, this next decade. The battle will be waged and the Light must prevail.

I would ask everyone reading this to send Love, energy, prayers, and whatever else you can to the true victims of this USA led action, as well as for peace in the world generally, and for the forces of light.

This message is not anti USA, it just so happens that this war is being led by the USA, and by Bush and an American general who is commanding all the military. Blair is equally to blame, particularly as he has turned his back on his own party and his own people.

We are entering a sad and potentially deadly era, where the USA and its allies "know not what they do" - please do whatever you can to make a difference for the Light.

With best regards,

Adrian.
 

[Epsilon]

I think we should all start supporting the troops that have been sent over instead of bickering back and forth about something we have no control over.  The troops need to know that the countries they are from support them while they lay their lives on the line.  No one WANTS war, but there comes a point where you must start "supporting" it whether you like it or not.  I have friends in the Armed Guard that have been sent over, and I know that they just want to be supported by their country and get this over with.  In fact, I feel like a horrible friend sitting back here in the states watching it unfold on TV as their putting their lives in danger.  Who knows, I might never see them again... (God forbid)

Whether you're anti-war, anti-US, anti-protests, anti-anything, please sit back for a moment and remember that fellow countrymen and possibly friends or family are over in the Middle East, and that they need your support.

I don't support the war, I support the troops.  

Learn, Love & Enjoy,
Ethan

[goingslow]

Many of the protestors and anti war people do put down the troops instead of Bush and its hard to find a middle ground there sometimes.  We can all sit back and say its wrong and argue but those are just words.  These people are possibly going to lose their lives we do owe them some respect.  Sitting at home comfortable its easy to see things in black and white.  But the government makes the decisions and sends them there and believe it or not it hurts them when it seems so many Americans dislike them more than they dislike those that hate our countries.  Some protestors carry signs putting down our military and have pictures of iraqi people.  Its fine to have empathy but be thoughtful of who you're hurting.

Sorry to say but its the truth most people in Iraq would celebrate america and all of her people being blown to pieces.  The solders out there are the ones that would defend you from that.  

This isnt for the anti american.. "no im not anti american i just lump you all together and demonize you together." ungrateful sideline watchers.  But more for americans who think its so cool to completely put down our military.  Bush doesn't represent most of the american people.. if you knew how many people actually hated him and dont even consider him the rightful president maybe you'd get a better idea what the american people believe.  But im sure you'll continue to lump everyone together.  I dont care much what anyone outside this country says because face it a lot of you have ulterior motives and you dont like the US anyway.  So i dont really get bothered by what bitter people have to say about it.

[Anonymous]

You're absolutely right, Goingslow. There was some riot (I forget where) that protestors took a 9/11 memorial and trashed it. I think people definitely need to be a lot more careful about what they are saying and doing. 9/11 has nothing to do with this war. A lot of people don't even think about what they say before it comes out of their mouths. Sometimes they don't even think about what they're doing. I think that's ridiculous. I am so fed up with people who follow others around like a flock of sheep. I'm not supporting Bush in this, but I definitely support our troops. I have a few friends in the armed forces and they don't want this war any more than we do. They should not needlessly suffer for our government's greedy ulterior motives. A REAL patriot is someone who believes in the ideals on which this country was founded, ideals that it seems are no longer important to our government- The right to privacy and the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Someone who is anti-government is not necessarily anti-American. They may actually be more of a patriot than the leaders we have today. I myself am an anarchist (sort of), but I don't believe in chaos. I believe in self-government- everyone is responsible for themselves and their actions. Our society is so full of excuses for everything. Every time I turn around someone makes an excuse rather than accept responsibilitly for their actions. Bush is making excuses to go to war, for instance. If our leaders make excuses, how can they expect to produce fine citizens? It's like my kung fu teachers says- Sloppy teachers make sloppy students. We may acquire our skills from others, but it is up to us to develop them and determine when and how to use them.

Anyway, enough of my ranting. There is a lot of ignorance on both sides of the issue of this war, and it's hard not to be ignorant when we don't know who to trust.