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Author Topic: THIS MAKES ME SAD  (Read 12988 times)
Tom
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« on: June 26, 2002, 22:50:48 »

It doesn't make me sad. I think it is funny. What is sad about it?


 
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Tisha
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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2002, 23:58:07 »

This is such fuss over nothing . . . why is everyone seemingly so appalled over removing a phrase that never belonged there in the first place?  The pledge was supposed to read, "one nation, indivisible."

The people who are writing these newspaper articles are saying some very stupid things.  California schoolchildren not being able to say the Pledge?   For heavens sake, they can SAY it, they'll just have to say it the way that it was ORIGINALLY INTENDED.

Now, I believe in god/dess (with many subgods and goddesses, angels and spirits, but that's beside the point).  But I'm not going to wail and gnash my teeth over this.  I don't believe that just because I happen to believe in god/dess, that everyone else in the U.S. has to invoke Her too.

The motives for inserting the phrase "under God" . . . they seem kind of creepy to me anyway.  Good riddance.

tisha


PS:  Hard-line Christian right-wingers huff and puff about the U.S. being a Christian country.  That is CRAP. . .  many people came here for religious freedom, including the freedom to be left alone, and worship or NOT worship as they please.  Anyway, don't they know that the Founding Fathers were Masons?  HELLO!  George Washington was an OCCULTIST, and so were most of his cronies.Look at all that masonic/occult imagery on the U.S. dollar bill!!!!  Ever visit the Masonic Temple in D.C.? HELLOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

tisha
(Descendant of the mother of George Washington!)

 
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Tisha
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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2002, 23:58:07 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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cainam_nazier
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« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2002, 00:56:59 »

In all honesty since I was of age to decide my own religion I would perposely omite the words "under god" when I would say the pledge.  I said the pledge along with every one else I just changed it to suite my beliefs.  
Then this was strengthened even more when I started learning about this counrty's history.  The why and who of those fleeing other countries to come here to be free, mostly to be free from religious prosocution.  But as things go the same establishment that drove most people here is now in control.

I believe that there should be a very clear and uncrossable seperation between religion and politics.  Religion should not be forced apon the masses but rather it should be some thing that can turn to if they choose.

Also I personally never liked the idea that it says, "In God We Trust" on ALL of our currency.

David Rogalski
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WalkerInTheWoods
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« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2002, 12:18:37 »

I can understand the person's reasons for the lawsuit and personally I agree with them. The words "under God" never should have been added to the pledge and I do not understand for the life of me why they were allowed to be added. There is separation of religion and state for a good reason. Those that believe in a religion should not get so upset over such things. It is not like they are attacking your religion, they are just saying that it is not Constitutional to join church and state. For some reason people think the USA is a Christian nation. This is so foolish. If the founding fathers wanted this to be a Christian nation then they would not have added that religion and state should not be mixed. They understood the problems that can arise when they are mixed so they wanted to keep it separate. By having a national religion it is putting down those that have other beliefs. It is like saying that their beliefs do not belong in this nation and that they are wrong. But the US is about free thinking, and this includes believing as well.

As far as finding God on money and other places, I think this is different. It is not making you pledge an allinment with a deity. It is just there. How many times do you actually look at it. It is more out of tradition. I do not think we should bother taking it off. Anyway, it does not actually promote a religion but the idea of a higher being. In a way I think it humbles us a little by reminding us that there is always something bigger, no matter how powerful we may think our nation is. This can be a god or nature or another nation, whatever, but just remember there is always a bigger dog somewhere that can take you out.

Reguardless of any beliefs I have I do feel strongly that religion and state should be separate. I also hope this ruling stands up because it is actually correct according to the US Constitution.

 
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« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2002, 02:55:02 »

I'll I have to say is this: this country was formed by good, righteous men who believed in God and in personal agency, free agency.  The man behind this is atheist and I am going to have a big smile on my face when this ruling is over turned by the Supreme Court...just wait and see.

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« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2002, 02:55:02 »



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WalkerInTheWoods
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« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2002, 09:57:26 »

I heard something interesting on the radio yesterday about the pledge. The pledge was actually written by a Baptist minister a little over 100 years ago. He never included the anything about a god in it originally. In fact it was changed before the god issue ever came up. Orginally it started out "I pledge allegiance to MY flag of the REPUBLIC". It was later changed to "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America". This really upset the guy that wrote it because his intent was for it to be used not just in the US but for all Republics. So those that came to the US but still felt bound to their nation could still say the pledge since it was not indicated which flag one was pledging to other than "my flag" which is basicly whichever you hold dear. It was not until after his death that "under God" was added, so he could not comment on this. But his daughter did say that she felt he would not approve of it. So it seems that the original author did not intend to mix church and state even though he did believe in God. He knew that you can keep them separate even though you feel strongly about them both.

PeacefulWarrior, are you saying that just because this man is an atheist he is not good or righteous? How can you be certain that the founding fathers of the US were good and righteous? Of coarse history will make them to be such because who wants a nation founded by evil selfish men (not saying they were). I am just saying that you cannot really judge historical figures because their true personalities are not shown but rather the "hereo" that the public has made of them. Granted it would seem that they did have a belief in God, but again they made it clear that they wanted church and state to be separate. The author of the pledge understood this and believed in this. This atheist may be the best man you could ever meet. Just because he does not believe in a god does not mean he does not believe in morals. Likewise just because one believes in a god does not make them moral.
I believe that his daughter has the right to believe what she wants and not feel pressured by the government to believe what is accepted. Would you still fee the same if it said "under the Gods and Goddesses"?

 
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« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2002, 10:29:07 »

""PeacefulWarrior, are you saying that just because this man is an atheist he is not good or righteous? How can you be certain that the founding fathers of the US were good and righteous? Of coarse history will make them to be such because who wants a nation founded by evil selfish men (not saying they were). I am just saying that you cannot really judge historical figures because their true personalities are not shown but rather the "hereo" that the public has made of them. ""

Asked the Native American, or American Indian which ever you prefer, if those the "created" this nation were good or evil.  Were they good and righteous? Or did they drive an entire culture from thier homes because they were deemed "uncivilized"?

The belief in anything, God, no God, way of life, good, bad, or what ever really should not be forced apon any one in any way shape or form.   Who decided that any one person or group of people should be allowed to force thier morals and beliefs on another person?  What makes them so "good and righteous" that they should be allowed to do so?  

Do not get me wrong.  I am willing to defend my home and my country should the need arise, but I do not do so in the name of any god, for any god, or because I think any god would think it right.  I would do so for my country, not for my god.

I do not believe a god would care for any city, state, country, or nation.  I believe that a god would only care about its followers, or those that believe in it.  Not any and all that live near one of its churches.

Let me ask you this as well.   Do you believe that forcing a person to say that they believe in any god would be any different than what the Romans did to the first followers of Christ?

I personally do not like being forced to lie about my beliefs because it is what the majority says is right.


David Rogalski
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PeacefulWarrior
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« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2002, 06:01:01 »

I guess it comes down to this:  I believe in God.  I believe He exists and loves us.  I don't feel at al ashamed to show loyalty, devotion and love to Him for the freedoms I enjoy.  At the same time I don't pressure or force anyone to feel the same as I do, therefore if a parent or child doesn't want to say the pledge of allegiance, fine, have them sit quietly or stand reverently and not recite it.  

I feel that people like this man are imposing their will and forcing others to do as they say.  Anyway, no matter how much flak I take for this I stand by my God and I do it proudly.  No matter what you want to say, this country was founded my those who believed in God and trusted in Him.  Not everything done in the name of God is supported by God, but I don't feel this is any reason to wipe out the word "God" from every aspect of society.  And no, I don't think aethists are evil... in fact I don't believe there truly exists an "pure atheist" for everyone worships something, whether it be themselves, money, a principle, an idea, a hope, their career, etc.  I, like many others, strive to worship and become more like God and I see Him wherever I turn, in the trees, in the sky, in the astral and in the eyes of every man and woman regardless of their race or belief system.

fides quaerens intellectum
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« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2002, 18:12:18 »

Howdy --

I recall G. Gordon Liddy saying that before World War Twice school children recited the Pledge not with their hands over their hearts but stretched out in a Nazi or Roman salute.  Some "old-timers" have told me that they held their hands palms up when giving this salute.  

We all tend to react in knee-jerk fashions to stories such as these.  It's like a speck landing in one's eye -- a little thing, but one often ends up with a blood-shot, tearing condition.  I've heard that this New England Baptist minister was a leader of a "Socialist" Christian movement.  As the British say, "There is much to know" about this minister, his ideology, the motivation and design of this (I believe) loaded "Pledge" phenomenon.

There is a film (which I have not yet seen) which was up for an Academy Award: "A Nation Adrift."  It is a history of these church and state issues in the United States.  The "fact" that all the Founding Fathers were deists...illuminati...liars, etc. is a recently introduced "truism,"  and one wonders whose agenda is served by such broadly brushed characterizations.

Fundamentalists do not believe in pledging or swearing to anything earthly.  Interesting.  All kinds of "trivia" was very important to our ancestors.  We have " thoroughly modern" citizens who believe in " Politicall Correctness."  "PC" is a creed in itself, however, which supports banning of certain books, speaking and writing of certain words...thinking certain thoughts....  We're all capable of seeing the speck floating in another's eye while ignoring the beam jutting out in our own.

Why should these judges be appointed bosses for life anyway?  Lifetime power = power absolute = corruption absolute.  Yet now the military is saying that even these slothful, corrupt judges cannot second-guess the martial authority when an individual is declared a hostile combatant.  I'll trade in a questionable "pledge" ritual for a functioning Habeas Corpus any day.



 
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Frank
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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2002, 18:41:31 »

quote:
Originally posted by koshka:
Howdy --

I'll trade in a questionable "pledge" ritual for a functioning Habeas Corpus any day.
 




Well said, that man.

Yours,
Frank


 
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distant bell
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« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2002, 18:55:56 »

Living in Europe, I have to say that this whole thing seems just like a joke to me.. What is it with americans that makes them so hung up on patriotism anyway? I just donīt get it..
I think that patriotism is bad- it is the first stage on the way to nasty things like rasism. So you live in a country and you like it.. but hey, there are loads of nice places on earth. Of course I would defende my home and my beloved to if someone attact me- but that would be neither for god or for the government- it would be for me and the people I care about.

Anyway..I think itīs total madness to include "Under god"...

Obviously that is only a construction- should the rest of the world not be under god? That is scarry- almoust like old judaism with there one god one people thing... is there a speciall american god or whats going on?

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« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2002, 20:42:14 »

Thats a very interesting post PeacefulWarrior. I, being an agnostic, beleive in a divine spirit, but will not refer to it as GOD, and I find your point well placed, but what is sad about it? One can see our country is most powerful but our problem is this, we worry too much about political issues that do not effect our countrys status. Whenever I say the pledge in school I simply refuse to say the phrase"under god" when it is recited. The political issue about the pledge was brought up by someone who refused to accept the fact that nobody is FORCED to recite the pledge, and it does no harm to recite it in your own way. Anyone who has a problem with the pledge as it currently stands is a moron. The man that started the case is Athiest from what i have read and refuses to beleive in a divine being. NOBODY IS FORCED TO SAY THE PLEDGE. This country would be much better if our constitution ruled out that people who incite problems with our country must have grounds to stand on with their point before they try to launch their rocket of opinion and argument. Id like to hear from anyone that agrees or disagrees with my opinion. I like to learn of how other people think, and possibly change my own ideals if a person makes a statement that proves my opinion wrong.

-Our country is great, the greatest,but nobodys perfect, but people should understand themselves before trying to understand others.

 
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McArthur
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« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2002, 21:31:19 »

I always thought it said "This Is Your God" on the dollar bills?  Wink)

 
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« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2002, 05:06:50 »

Vast majority in U.S. support 'under God'
June 29, 2002 Posted: 5:28 PM EDT (2128 GMT)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
NEW YORK (CNN) -- Nearly nine in 10 Americans believe the phrase "under God" should remain in the Pledge of Allegiance, and most believe it is acceptable for the government to promote religious expression, as long as no specific religion is mentioned, according to a Newsweek poll.

The poll, released Saturday, also found that while a majority of Americans think it is likely that terrorist attacks will be carried out during the upcoming Fourth of July holiday, most aren't planning to alter their plans.
 
The margin of error in the poll of 1,000 adults conducted Thursday and Friday was plus or minus 4 percentage points.

On Wednesday, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco ruled the Pledge of Allegiance was an unconstitutional endorsement of religion because it contains the phrase "under God," which was added in 1954.

Asked if the Pledge should contain the phrase "under God," 87 percent of those polled by Newsweek said yes and only 9 percent said no. Asked if the government should avoid promoting religion in any way, 36 percent said yes, but 54 percent said no, and 60 percent of poll respondents said they think it is good for the country when government leaders publicly express their faith in God.

Only 12 percent of those polled thought the government should eliminate all references to God and religions belief in schools, government buildings and other public settings, while 84 percent said such references are acceptable, as long as they don't mention a specific religion.

The poll found that 45 percent of Americans hold the view that the United States is a secular nation in which religious belief, or lack of it, isn't a defining characteristic. Twenty-nine percent believe the United States is a Christian nation, and another 16 percent believe the United States is a Biblical nation, defined by the Judeo-Christian tradition.

In regard to possible Fourth of July terrorist attacks, 12 percent of those polled thought an attack was very likely and 45 percent said it was somewhat likely. Thirty-nine percent thought it was not too likely or not at all likely.

Despite that concern, only 37 percent indicated that their plans would be affected in any way, and less than a quarter of those polled said they would avoid traveling, flying, visiting large cities such as New York or Washington or attending events in crowded public places such as theme parks or sports arenas.

Pledge of Allegiance
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.  
 
 
 



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astralc
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« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2002, 05:29:44 »

Don't we all love a debate!

Over here in Ozzie land we used to sing God Save the Queen at our school assembly in the mornings. We stopped doing that about 30 years ago. Don't remember why, but for me it was a waste of good breath.

I agree with the majority of posts, and especially distant bell, why all the fuss?

Australia was founded by criminals and so we mostly shun and distrust religion, probably because it never saved those poor buggers on their way to the penal colonies. We don't have 'bible belts' and those sorts of God-fearing things here. Our worst religious cases waste away, because so few attend church these days.

Wasn't America founded by the Puritans and other persecuted religious groups in Europe? 'Give me your poor, your dispossessed religious nuts, etc' is what the statue of liberty says (I think it says something like that anyway)?

It is interesting that the comments are mostly from the US, we on the outside like to sit back and enjoy the fun. Good post! http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_wink.gif" border=0>

Astralc

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distant bell
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« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2002, 05:51:34 »

I have to ask you americans again why you need to say a pledge in school and other places at al? I think we had something similar in sweden some 50 years ago. But things are changing- itīs the 21th century.
People hopfully will start to se the world as one place in america to one day I hope. Here in europe most young people would like to move to a new country and try out a different culture. We take a pride in beeing multi cultural over here. To me it seems wery strane that school kids should have to say a pledge to a governmental system. After al what have they to comapar with?

I whant to stress this point- CULTURE is not the same as a governmental system- and it seems to me that the amercian pledeg is to a governmental system. And when it comes to cultures- only a fool could go around beliving that his culture is the best on earth..
The world is full of nice cultures- thereīs more than the
US out there you know!

Felix


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Tom
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« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2002, 10:05:49 »

It isn't that I care about the phrase "under god", really. What made me happy to see that whole "pledge of allegiance" thing go away was that the idea of a flag and government being above all bothered me. What I think we need is a world government. It is not a popular opinion in america except for those who think that america should become that world government. That is not what I had in mind. My friend and I want to move to Australia and bring our cat Alex. How odd that I should decide to use a capital letter for Australia and yet leave america with a small a.


 
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« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2002, 05:44:04 »

I think the biggest problem with this whole thing, is that it's a bunch of people spouting off about things they don't know anything about. Now I'm not going to claim to be a politcal/law book whiz, but I do know a few things. First of all, the phrase "separation of church and state" is merely that. A phrase. It is NOT law. President Thomas Jefferson coined this phrase in a carefully crafted letter to the Danbury Baptists of Connecticut in 1802. It has since been widely picked up and invoked in major Supreme Court decisions. (Source: http://www.ffrf.org/cgi-bin/ffrfquiz.cgi ) This separation was not established to create a completely religionless government. It was established to keep us from turning back into England. (No offence intended toward our English friends or their country.) The England that our founding fathers were fighting had a system in which the political leaders were the religious leaders, essentially making them all-powerful in terms of controling the people. This is what we were fighting, not religion itself.
Second, the first amendment states that we have freedom of religion. This means that we are allowed to worship what we like. Be it a God, an element, money, time, or even ourselves. Believe it or not, but the definition of "religion" is simply a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith. (Source: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=religion ) By that definition, even athiests practice religion. Established or not, God or not, it's a religion. And yes I know, everything I've said so far has annoyed some, angered others, and convinced several of you that I have no idea what I'm talking about, but do your reaserch, check out the links I've listed, I may be out of it, but I'm not wrong.
Third, the 9th circut ruling ONLY affects those states under it's jurisdiction, and ONLY when the pledge is said in SCHOOL. Nothing else. So far anyway.
Fourth, removing references to God is a two sided coin. This whole thing was started by an atheist father who was standing up for his beliefs in not wanting his daughter to recite the pledge of allegiance and thus acknowledge a God. I have no problem with this. But he proceeded to turn around and decide that since he did not believe in a God, everyone else should have to cease references to their own beliefs to suit him. This doesn't sound like freedom of religion to me. This sounds like freedom of his religion, and sh** for everyone else. If he doesn't want his daughter exposed to religion, that's fine. Have her step out of the room before the pledge is said. I think that is much less problematic than forcing the rest of the population not to say it.


 
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« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2002, 15:29:15 »

Steping out or leaving that part out is a perfectly logical idea.

But how can there be a freedom of religion if the government acknowladges the existance of any god.  

I feel that the US Gov. should stay completely nuetral on the sublect.  Neither confirm or deny the exstance.  Also I feel they should make no reference to or lack of a god.  There should be no comment on the subject.

By forcing any one to say that there is a god or there isn't is an infringment on this right.

And yes I have seen this happen.  The force can be either through punishment, simply singling a person out, or pressuring them to do so.  By simply not conforming to the "considered norm" a person can be singled out,  and riticuled.  This kind of pressure can be unbearable at time, more so for a child.  What is a kid to do when thier parents teach them one thing and sociaty tries to force another?

Religion, god, morals, manners, and so on are the responsability of the parents to teach, or for a child to learn on its own, or seek guidance when dealing with.  These are not things that should be forced apon some one by sociaty or gov.



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Tom
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« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2002, 16:05:13 »

It shows that one person really can make a change. It is about power, not about some paragraph. It doesn't matter if there is a God or several or even none. The hardest part is in really choosing a goal and working toward it. Some goals are better than others. This was not a good goal. Even so, it is inspiring for me.


 
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« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2002, 05:21:24 »

Goverment and Religion are in fact exactly the same thing; just two ways of controling people, to keep them blind and in the dark about what really matters "spiritual evolution".
Why debate this when there are more important things to be getting on with ie. Your own personal spiritual education and evolution!
It's one thing being patriotic it's another being blind, wake up and smell the coffee as the americans love to say.
Life is short to save yourself from your imminent second death (your more than likely spiritual one that is) as the physical one can't be avoided so get to work guys 'n gals and leave govt. bickkering and religious ranting to the mortals.

The devils advocate

Alchimiste

 
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Alchimiste
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« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2002, 05:55:11 »

"Goverment and Religion are in fact exactly the same thing; just two ways of controling people, ..."
That may be what government is now, but that's not what it was created to be. The American public has forgotten who holds the power in our nation. Not the government, not the officials, US! Sadly it is a truth not soon remembered.


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« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2002, 17:52:04 »

Howdy, ASTRLC --

I appreciate your quote by (American) R. W. Emerson.  Has not OZ-land passed a draconian gun confiscation system?  How has that helped with the hundreds of gang rapes by new Muslim immigrants -- a phenomenon so egregious that you've had to pass legislation against liberal immigration policies?  

In this country (USA) quite a number of us are aware that president F. D. Roosevelt (did I spell that correctly?) KNEW that the attack on Pearl Harbor was to occur AT LEAST 12 days before the event.  At this time there is mounting evidence of AT LEAST prior knowledge of 911 by the "leaders" of our country.  Back in the 60's, the "Northwood" plan was cooked up by the Joint Chiefs.  This PUBLISHED artifact (visit www.infowars.com, e.g.) called for deaths of Americans in airliners, etc. to foment war feeling for attacking Cuba.  JFK was appalled.  He said "No."  He died.

Presently the "USA Patriot Act" was passed by a Congress that was not allowed to READ the thing on penalty of being denounced as soft on terrorism.

Have you perchance read THE BIGGEST SECRET?

 
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astralc
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« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2002, 02:34:28 »

koshka

great post. As for draconian guns laws - when Martin Bryant took his arsenal of guns along to a tourist centre in Tasmania Australia, in 1996, and slaughtered more people than any other lone gunman in the western world, it was the people, not the government, who said "that is enough!"

He killed 34 people, women and children, it took a lot of action by the people to persuade the government to stop the average man on the street from getting a gun for no apparent reason than to shoot it off somewhere.

I don't think that anyone has the right to own a gun, hand gun or rifle. They exist for one reson only, and that is to kill. Our laws allow gun club owners and farmers to register and own a gun, and they must be kept in a locked cupboard away from kids.

We outside the USA watch with horror at how your elected governement allows people to carry and use firearms with impunity. It is almost a monthly act to watch an American citizen murder his school friends, this is just plain crazy.

Gun laws exist to protect us. You guys really need to do something to stop the blatant murder of your youths by guns.

Astralc


"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." Ralph Waldo Emerson
www.shoal.net.au/~astralc
"The marriage of the ancient arts of astrology, taoism, tantra and the modern science of psychology."
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cainam_nazier
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« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2002, 07:17:40 »

"I believe you to be wrong sir, but I will defende with my life your right to say it."
 A quote that rumored to have been said during the debat over the ammendments.

Yes I believe gun ownership should be a  more controlled thing.  However if a person who is truely bent on getting one will.  Most gun law and bans however keep guns away from the normal citizen.  Granted there is no way to know when a person is just going to flip out and go crazy.  But criminals will get guns no matter what laws are passed.   That is the simple truth of it.

Children naturally should not be able to get a hold of any firarm.  But that is the resposability of the parent.  They need to teach thier children proper gun safety and usage.  They are also responsable for the proper storage of said firarm.  It is often the irresposible actions of the parent that allows a child to get thier hands on a gun.

Again I say, it is not sociaties job to teach me or my children right and wrong,  give them morals, and teach them the consiquences(sp?) of thier actions.  That is my job.  And that is the job of every parent.  If you are unable or unwilling to take on such a responsability then you should not have kids.


David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.
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