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Author Topic: Thoughts on Ferguson  (Read 6329 times)
benhey-man
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« on: November 26, 2014, 22:24:34 »

Just wondering what everyone thinks about what is happening in Ferguson at the moment. Personally I think that people should be protesting against police brutality in general, black or white.
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Xanth
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« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2014, 00:28:25 »

It's an interesting commentary on the state of our society's, what I call, "Societal Intent".

Now, please understand I'm going by the officers statement here... at least for the beginning seconds of the incident.  Before the cop got out of his car, it seems to generally be accepted as truth.

I don't know the tone of voice the officer used in the initial altercation when he was in his cruiser and asked the two guys to get off the street, but it IS an acceptable request to be made.  You can't simply be walking down the middle of the street... cars going by or not.  It's unacceptable behaviour.  Whether the tone of voice of the cop triggered the particular response or not... the response was also unacceptable behaviour.  I don't care who you are... you don't say those kinds of things to an officer, even if you do have issues with authority figures or not.

So... this ENTIRE things boils down to the above paragraph.  Do you see where the Societal Intent kicked in?  The NEGATIVE Societal Intent?  It came from BOTH people.

As I said, this is a commentary of how we as a society behave.  Each person needs to pull up themselves up by their own bootstraps if we're to become a better society.  For each individual who becomes a better, kinder, more Loving individual... so becomes our Societal Intent.  I call this "purifying our Intent".  The more you purify your Intent, the more, in turn, society's intent becomes purified.  This isn't something that will happen overnight... it's going to take a very long time.  There is a lot damage out there on a personal level that needs to be taken responsible for.

Had one (or both) of the individuals in this mess either walked away... or listened and did what was asked (I don't care who it was at this point... cop or guy), then this entire thing wouldn't have happened. 

Did it need to happen?  No... nobody needs to senselessly lose their life.  That's all this was... a needless loss of life that could have been avoided had someone (again, I don't care who) THOUGHT before acting.

The resulting damage over the last couple nights as well is completely unacceptable and is FURTHER commentary on how our Societal Intent is in bad shape right now.  Destroying property and businesses that had nothing to do with this... ruining the livelihood of those innocent people is also terrible.  There's not much good happening or coming out of Ferguson right now.  Sadly.  No lesson will be learned... life will continue on as it has... because our Societal Intent won't have changed.  It might have actually gotten worse.

"Be the change you wish to see in the world"... Ghandi, smart man.
Change doesn't come from anywhere but inside you.

EDIT: Not that I think we need it... BUT, just for arguments sake, this thread will be heavily moderated.  It's a good question and it has serious implications upon not only our own growth, but the growth of humanity as well.  I trust you all to be mature.   Smiley
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 02:55:18 by Xanth » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2014, 00:28:25 »

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LightBeam
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« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2014, 00:43:59 »

No matter who is wrong and who is right in this matter, the kind of protests going on are unacceptable. If you think you have an enemy, then go and fight the enemy and not innocent people and their property who have no involvement whatsoever.
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Stillwater
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« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2014, 04:15:40 »

I agree with the above. I feel the rioters have no place re-directing their anger against random targets, then, or especially now. Pre-meditated destruction helps no one.

I think chiefly the rioters themselves are to blame, but no small part of the blame falls on media and "leader" figures who have chosen to focus on a senseless tragedy, and build it into a racial case where none existed. People like Al Sharpton and Eric holder to me bear not the smallest part of the responsibility for the destruction, because they know the effect of labeling this a racial hate crime, and calling for special reactions. They knew this would be the result, yet still chose to attach inflammatory dimensions to the happening. Folks like that are the true racists I feel. The call for action on a case which has not been judged is also a very poor show for an attorney general; the court system aspires to be blind. I believe these men actually authored racial tensions in a place where they didn't previously exist, and that is also damaging to the harmony of society.

I think it should  be clear to future leaders not to speak only by the composition of their feelings, but also by the likely results those expressed feelings will generate. Excusing oneself from the likely consequences of one's words is unacceptable at that level, and is also to me part of the intent question Xanth has expressed. The words themselves are not enough-- not everyone is prepared to hear the same words at the same times-- and we must have care what would be in the best interests of those around us to be told. It is not a matter of hiding truth, or disguising one's feelings, but rather recognizing that when we address others, we should have their best interests at heart.

I wish the people there safety and peace.
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« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2014, 05:24:10 »

I didn't expect such a discussion to come up on a forum like this but I'm glad it can do, and see it treated with some wisdom. I must admit, at first my knee-jerk reaction (when the incident first happened) was one of yet another black youth shot/mistreated by the white authorities, but it would seem the narrative was somewhat more nuanced. However, even if the protests are slightly misplaced, people are airing much deeper grievances which are still in need of much healing. We had a similar thing here in the UK when Mark Duggen was shot in North London, which lead to the nationwide riots starting in London and hitting all the major cities. It's a while since we'd had any 'race' riots. However, even though the initial protest may have had some justification (Mark Duggen was black and unarmed - but not exactly an 'angel' - meant in the colloquial sense!), the riots just turned into a looting free-for-all. I thought of them as 'pro-capitalist' or 'pro-consumerist' riots where a mass hysteria took hold and so many people saw it as an opportunity to grab TVs trainers and 'must-have' goods in general. They didn't know Mark and probably didn't really care, and it was all quite cynical.
The political issues of haves and have-nots still exists in the background, and the race aspect is, as I say, still in need of much healing, honesty and soul searching for all concerned. I suppose in the states many are disappointed that Obama didn't usher in a new era of racial harmony and equality. Certainly here in the UK I'd say that we are a less healthy society if people, be they black or white or anything, for whatever reason either don't have, or don't perceive they have, the same opportunities and feeling of living in a 'fair' society.
I suppose my point is - the rioting is out of order but the reasons (not excuses) behind it are real issues that need - well, healing.
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« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2014, 05:24:10 »



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benhey-man
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« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2014, 12:49:33 »

Police brutality in general seems to be overly forceful without police receiving the implications that would happen to anyone else. This shows a serious flaw in the legal system and that it really needs to be amended ! However the government are never going to change things like and that is one of the main problems. The other problem is with the rioting. Many people have no intent to help the actual cause of protests and just see it as an excuse to cause anarchy within society, many people who are nothing to do with the problem are negatively effected by the riots for no reason. Shops get looted because it's an opportunity for people to take advantage of negative situations in our society, whilst they don't actually fight for the right thing. Shootings like this happen a lot more often than it appears to and the fact that this has been labelled as a 'race hate', when it was probably nothing to do with mike Brown's colour and just the fact that the policeman had the power to do what he did. That is why I think people are protesting for the wrong reasons
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Xanth
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« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2014, 13:15:01 »

The thing to understand is that this is the narrative that the media wants you to have first in your head.

Realize that this stuff happens on a near daily basis... and not just white cops on black youth either.
This happen to everyone.  You just don't hear about the events that don't fit the narrative that the media is trying to feed you.
They've done an extremely good job at stirring this particular pot...

As for police not receiving the implications of their actions...
It's a tough call to charge an officer for "doing his job"... whether or not we agree with the action taken, hindsight is always 20/20.
Would a cop want to continue doing his or her job with the thought in the back of their mind that any action they take is going to get them sued or, worse, charged and thrown in jail?

Who would then want to do that job?  As a human, you're not always going to make the "correct" choice.  Do you get thrown in jail for doing your job?
When we start prosecuting officers for the actions they choose to do (RELATIVELY speaking, within reason <-- see, even I'm doing it now: what is "within reason"?), then have we, as a society, lost our ability to police ourselves?

At one point in my life, I wanted to be a cop...
Now-a-days, I don't think a paycheque could be large enough for me to do that job.  Not worth it. 

« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 13:16:44 by Xanth » Logged

desert-rat
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« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2014, 16:23:05 »

I would like to point hear , there is a video of M. Brown stealing from that store , they did find his d.n.a. on the cops gun . He was trying to take the cops gun . 
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« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2014, 16:23:41 »

 
To be honest I think its easy to be high-minded when you're not in the firing line. Black Americans built that country with their bare hands (through no choice of their own) and in 2014 they're still getting gunned down like animals. Its an absolute disgrace! Of course rioting isn't going to solve anything but lets not act like this shooting was an isolated incident. People can only take so much. Got zero sympathy for pigs. Why act like they shouldn't be held to a higher standard? Its your taxes that's paying their salaries. There's too much victim-blaming  going around for my liking (not necessarily here).

That being said, I still think there is a deeper agenda at play. Agent provocateurs abound and the military's ready and waiting on the sidelines...
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sheriff_rango
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« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2014, 16:27:53 »


I think chiefly the rioters themselves are to blame, but no small part of the blame falls on media and "leader" figures who have chosen to focus on a senseless tragedy, and build it into a racial case where none existed. People like Al Sharpton and Eric holder to me bear not the smallest part of the responsibility for the destruction, because they know the effect of labeling this a racial hate crime, and calling for special reactions. They knew this would be the result, yet still chose to attach inflammatory dimensions to the happening. Folks like that are the true racists I feel. The call for action on a case which has not been judged is also a very poor show for an attorney general; the court system aspires to be blind. I believe these men actually authored racial tensions in a place where they didn't previously exist, and that is also damaging to the harmony of society.


 Of course its racial. White privilege/supremacy is the reality of the world we live in : unseen by those benefit from it even unwittingly. Try being a young black (or indeed Muslim) male in this day and age ~ why even risk setting foot outside?

Also, reverse racism is a total fallacy. Its brought up only to deflect from actual racism, the systematic kind.

And I've no time for the likes of Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson etc.Those guys are unquestionably bought and paid for.
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Xanth
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« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2014, 18:42:41 »

As long as there is this "us" vs "them" mentality... then things will never get better.

This goes back to what I was saying above... you need to change YOURSELF.  You need to change how YOU view the world... YOUR perspective.
You'll never change how someone else views things.

Personally, to me... there's only "humanity".  If someone does something bad, it's because that individual did something bad... there are good and bad people in every culture, with every coloured skin.
Your ACTIONS speak much louder to me than any physical characteristic of your body. 

Remember... in the end... YOU ARE NOT YOUR BODY.  Once a critical mass of people on this planet understand this concept, you'll begin to see massive changes occur in how we treat each other.  Smiley
Until then, you can only change yourself.
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« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2014, 00:47:13 »

Hey Xanth, hello.
 I would like to add a cultural component. When my friend from Boston FB'd a post which stated, "Answering violence with violence's not the appropriate reaction", my thoughts went to the race riots of 20th century America. As a curiosity, I researched race riots in Canada. Three. Three. I swear I'm not trying to toot our horn. I'm not claiming we, as a people, are any less racist than anywhere else, so my thoughts on the disparity boil down to some cultural component. In 1833, slavery was abolished in the British empire which, of course, would have included Canada. Slavery in Canada mostly concerned inter-Inidiginous relations.
 What lays unresolved in the American psyche that this issue persists? The world is watching...and judging...ahem...Russia. The shortfall is seen as an idealogical failing in Asia...and Africa.
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« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2014, 03:30:23 »

It is a matter of a certain sector of any given group feeling powerless. When a person feels they have lost power and control in their normal society, in extreme cases they sometimes want to re-assert that they indeed do have certain powers. For instance, in a hierarchy, when someone lower is attacked or reprimanded by a superior, it is a very common thing for that person to be more likely to repeat an identical behavior to someone below them. This is a human thing, and a general animal behavior common to many societies of creatures. In another sense, there are those that feel as though a way to re-assert they have personal power is to visit harm on others. Not always the others that first harmed or rebuked them, but it is immaterial; if a person can re-establish to themselves they have the same power over others which they have seen others express over them, it works out.

Many school and work-place shootings have this component to them (although there are other pyschiatric and pharmaceutical components to those cases).

The riots are very similar. A part of the community feels, rightly or wrongly, that its power has been taken away from it by society. The general and unfocused destruction is an attempt to re-establish that personal power. It is worth examining the social narrative that leads people to feel this way.
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« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2014, 04:58:21 »


Remember... in the end... YOU ARE NOT YOUR BODY.  Once a critical mass of people on this planet understand this concept, you'll begin to see massive changes occur in how we treat each other.  Smiley
Until then, you can only change yourself.

That's really why I'm here! And why we're all here - on this forum - on this planet!

I'd just like to pick up some points from above - while we are discussing the group/societal dynamic. Police should hold up the law to a high standard in a society governed by the rule of law, but at the same time offered the protection of the law whilst carrying out their duty. Blatant disregard should be dealt with. There's a lot of recriminations here in the UK over bad decisions made by the police in historical cases of all sorts, and some of it is being dealt with. I think we nearly have a good balance - but then that is my perception. Basically, they have a lot of lee-way, but must always keep in mind that they may have to answer for excessive force etc. It's taken years and processes, and it continues.

And on the issue of it being totally racial - there are plenty of disenfranchised white people in the world esp. US & UK as I said above. Here the white working class/on benefits kids get called chav's (I think it was a Roma gypsy word for kid!) and they all get a very hard time. As groups we also have group karma I believe, and we need to work that out with each other. Head towards something like truth and reconciliation and grow and move on.
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« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2014, 16:22:04 »

As long as there is this "us" vs "them" mentality... then things will never get better.

This goes back to what I was saying above... you need to change YOURSELF.  You need to change how YOU view the world... YOUR perspective.
You'll never change how someone else views things.

Personally, to me... there's only "humanity".  If someone does something bad, it's because that individual did something bad... there are good and bad people in every culture, with every coloured skin.
Your ACTIONS speak much louder to me than any physical characteristic of your body. 

Remember... in the end... YOU ARE NOT YOUR BODY.  Once a critical mass of people on this planet understand this concept, you'll begin to see massive changes occur in how we treat each other.  Smiley
Until then, you can only change yourself.

 Look, I totally agree with you but why can't it be 'us' (that is humanity) versus a system that has discriminated and oppressed a hell of a lot of people worldwide since colonial times? I sound a bit heavy duty but I think we need to stand up for marginalised people and when some folk are still convinced that there isn't a even a problem or that the victims are to blame for these situation (thanks a lot mainstream media) sometimes sadly we need to shout louder.

 And sure, change has to come from within but I think a balance needs to be struck between introspection and activism. I hope you see where I'm coming from. smiley

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« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2014, 20:04:11 »

People should stop talking about it in general. It's nothing except annoying. When a law enforcement has a reason to be suspicious... cooperate with them... peacefully. That right there should be, and really is the only debate that's relevant to the whole Ferguson predicament.
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Xanth
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« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2014, 21:18:22 »

Look, I totally agree with you but why can't it be 'us' (that is humanity) versus a system that has discriminated and oppressed a hell of a lot of people worldwide since colonial times?
Because we *ARE* the system.  Smiley
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« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2014, 12:20:40 »

Because we *ARE* the system.  Smiley

Its hard sometimes to reconcile spiritual/philosophical beliefs or ideals with the reality of the world as it stands...

I guess I've just got to try harder. smiley


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« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2014, 15:24:39 »

Its hard sometimes to reconcile spiritual/philosophical beliefs or ideals with the reality of the world as it stands...

I guess I've just got to try harder. smiley
It's not really something you can "try harder" to get.  When you figure things out, it'll make sense.  Smiley
I've always had to discover things on my own first before I had any hope of truly understanding something.

This is part and parcel behind why I'm rather stubborn in the particular perspective I share and teach on this forum regarding reality and projection.  LoL
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« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2014, 19:07:46 »

The us vs. them mentality is constantly perpetuated, agitated, and provoked. Police brutality an militarization are also being pushed. I was recently a 'victim' of this system, luckily kept my life however. In a society so hell bent on keeping the racism pot stirring, it not creates an us vs. them between color but also an us vs. them against law enforcement etc and with our society becoming a moral sespool, our 'leaders' being spineless degenerates, and a society where everyone gets a triphy so to speak, this will continue. From inside and out, top to bottom, the intent must change i whole heartedly agree. While we can not change people's intent, how then do we go about influencing a positive shift in human thought? In my mind the world will have to collapse again so to speak to give masses some perspective....ferguson is a good example of why i think this.
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« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2014, 02:38:06 »

I wonder how things would change when the realization hits that when you hurt someone else... you're actually only hurting yourself, because you are everything and everything is you. 

It's a strong realization...
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« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2014, 15:30:43 »

Quote
I wonder how things would change when the realization hits that when you hurt someone else... you're actually only hurting yourself, because you are everything and everything is you. 

It's a strong realization...

Yes, and it has many sad and brutally heavy corollaries.

For instance, the reverse reading, which is that you are the author of all the suffering that has ever been or will be- every viciously evil thing that ever happened to anyone or anything was all your doing.

A real show stopper.
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« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2014, 18:17:38 »

Yes, and it has many sad and brutally heavy corollaries.

For instance, the reverse reading, which is that you are the author of all the suffering that has ever been or will be- every viciously evil thing that ever happened to anyone or anything was all your doing.

A real show stopper.
That thought alone makes me only want to do good from now on.  Smiley
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« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2014, 01:23:50 »

Hehe, right?
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« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2014, 04:37:36 »

Quote from: Xanth link=topic=45321.m :|sg353541#msg353541 date=1417487886
I wonder how things would change when the realization hits that when you hurt someone else... you're actually only hurting yourself, because you are everything and everything is you. 

It's a strong realization...


It would be a massive change. But so few people in the earth population have a clue about this truth. It's really kinda depressing. How do you help enable realization and change? I try to touch the world consciousness through meditation, but I'm too impatient!  undecided
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