What is the Difference Between AP and Lucid Dreams?

[Lionheart]

 Pauli there is a portion of Tom's Q @ A that I think you would really benefit from. It starts right at the beginning of this video and goes for 15 minutes. The key is to listen to it with an "open mind"! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w6Tf5CNPpU&feature=relmfu

[Xanth]

If I have to trust what Campbell says, it still is very fuzzy, blurred so everything
becomes the same.

Nope.  You don't have to "trust" it.  That's actually his entire point.  He doesn't want you "trusting" what he says.
He doesn't want you to believe what he says.  He also doesn't want you to disbelieve it either.  Reason being once you believe in something, you no longer have to search for an answer... you've go it!  Once you disbelieve it, you've taken it completely off the table just incase it has some possibility of being true.

What Tom wants from you is to go have your own experiences and create your *own* "big toe". 

I wouldn't be surprised if Campbell at some point will say that wakefulness in physical reality (PMR)
is fundamentally the same as an OBE. But that is like a physicist would say that any atom
is fundamentally the same as any other atom. It doesn't give room for any diversification.

He actually already says that.  He states: "WE ARE CONSCIOUSNESS". 
It's why and how he can create a BIG TOE, because it encompasses both physical and non-physical.

And in the end... well, according to Tom... those atoms don't actually exist anyway, they're all just "data". 
Just information which your consciousness is processing in order to experience it.

If a carbon atom is fundamentally the same as an oxygen atom, just because both have
electrons and similar atom core, doesn't take into account that they in fact are different.

Different, but No Fundamental Difference ... I doubt such a statement helps anyone.

Well, I'm not exactly sure... but I don't think you're comparing apples to apples here. 

[Pauli2]

Pauli there is a portion of Tom's Q @ A that I think you would really benefit from. It starts right at the beginning of this video and goes for 15 minutes. The key is to listen to it with an "open mind"!

Well, I listened and listened and you and I are of the same age, but to me that was just one more
boring and slightly length talk of Campbell. The stuff about 'fear being absence of love' sounded
like an echo of the 1990ies Moen books, so I guess that is something TMI teaches a lot. But
otherwise, nothing new in my opinion. I'm really sorry, but Campbell seldom impresses me.

I also think this is typical of Campbell, he seldom speaks of anything new, he repeats TMI program
or TMI course material stuff, he repeats content from his book MBT, he has very few face expressions
which to me increases the boring moments, he is very lengthy at all times, he speaks almost always
with the same kind of voice.

I just doesn't get it, why are everyone liking these lengthy nothing-new-content clips?
I can't bring up any enthusiasm to such lengthy video talks.

[Xanth]

Well, I listened and listened and you and I are of the same age, but to me that was just one more
boring and slightly length talk of Campbell. The stuff about 'fear being absence of love' sounded
like an echo of the 1990ies Moen books, so I guess that is something TMI teaches a lot. But
otherwise, nothing new in my opinion. I'm really sorry, but Campbell seldom impresses me.

I also think this is typical of Campbell, he seldom speaks of anything new, he repeats TMI program
or TMI course material stuff, he repeats content from his book MBT, he has very few face expressions
which to me increases the boring moments, he is very lengthy at all times, he speaks almost always
with the same kind of voice.

Just one word of note...

Tom Campbell helped to WRITE the TMI programs.

Just sayin... 

I just doesn't get it, why are everyone liking these lengthy nothing-new-content clips?
I can't bring up any enthusiasm to such lengthy video talks.

Because you're not *LISTENING* to him openly.  You're heavily biased already against him.  Which is really ironic, cause he's an author... and you love listening to authors.  LoL
You already have a judgment that anything this man has to say isn't going to be any use to you.

Open your heart and REALLY listen.

I'll be honest, it took me SEVERAL times listening to his first New York lecture before I started to "get it". 
And I don't mean "get it" as in begin to understand his theories... I mean "get it" as in begin to understand what this man is about.

He is the epitome of Love.  He's the epitome of what he talks about.  REALLY LISTEN.

[Barnowl]

dreams are a projection to the astral plane, hence in an AP you 'end up in the same 'area', so to speak. the degree of lucidity varies, in normal dreams you are unconscious and your subconscius or "Higher Self" is at the steering wheel

That is how I see it as well. Its all down to, 'awareness', or how much, 'consciousness' is in your etheric body. For dreams, you are, 'barely' conscious (so to speak) so its a bit fuzzy (but you always seem to know what you are doing, so most likely subconsciously moving...)

Then you realize that you are, 'dreaming' and a bit more, 'consciousness' floods in, you realize that you can, 'fly' and do other stuff, but still a bit fuzzy. In my opinion, this is a lucid dream.

Then, you demand clarity, (like what william burlman would say) and suddenly, near crystal clear picture. Suddenly, no fuzzyness (or very little). Your thoughts begin to create easily, and you know where you are (for the most part). You can then, to a degree, manipulate the environment.

You are now in an obe.

I'm no expert, but hopefully this will help. I've had the odd one or two lucid dreams, but the manifesting properties in a lucid dream is still a bit too restrictive for me, hence why I prefer a full obe.

I can do what I want then

[Szaxx]

Hi,
Barnowl,
You havnt really had a true lucid dream then by the comment above.
TOTAL control of EVERYTHING.  Its the most lucid state beyond the physical. Its an obe of course but different by far in comparison to the RTZ. The astral is more limited in my opinion by comparison. These are rare too.
It puts a reality question on the physical being the alpha state of conciousness.
Unless there's something I've not read yet?

[Barnowl]

ok...you're probably right...

my apologies (I just thought I had one or two, thats all)

[Pauli2]

TOTAL control of EVERYTHING.  Its the most lucid state beyond the physical.
Its an obe of course but different by far in comparison to the RTZ.

In my mind you seem to mix at least two things. But anyway, Robert Waggoner, former
President of the International Association for the Study of Dreams (IASD), has stated,
due to his extensive experience of LDs, that "the sailor doesn't control the sea".

And Jeez, you even got the guy to apologize.

[Barnowl]

I don't mind apologizing... after all, I could be completely incorrect.

I can only go by my experiences, thats all

But I'm now curious as to what the difference is myself, so I'm now looking at this topic more closely, for my own self-education (and hopefully, more experiences)

 

[Xanth]

That is how I see it as well. Its all down to, 'awareness', or how much, 'consciousness' is in your etheric body. For dreams, you are, 'barely' conscious (so to speak) so its a bit fuzzy (but you always seem to know what you are doing, so most likely subconsciously moving...)

Then you realize that you are, 'dreaming' and a bit more, 'consciousness' floods in, you realize that you can, 'fly' and do other stuff, but still a bit fuzzy. In my opinion, this is a lucid dream.

Then, you demand clarity, (like what william burlman would say) and suddenly, near crystal clear picture. Suddenly, no fuzzyness (or very little). Your thoughts begin to create easily, and you know where you are (for the most part). You can then, to a degree, manipulate the environment.

You are now in an obe.

I'm no expert, but hopefully this will help. I've had the odd one or two lucid dreams, but the manifesting properties in a lucid dream is still a bit too restrictive for me, hence why I prefer a full obe.

I can do what I want then

This is essentially how I view it as well. 
I don't believe you're wrong at all. 

Hi,
Barnowl,
You havnt really had a true lucid dream then by the comment above.
TOTAL control of EVERYTHING.  Its the most lucid state beyond the physical. Its an obe of course but different by far in comparison to the RTZ. The astral is more limited in my opinion by comparison. These are rare too.
It puts a reality question on the physical being the alpha state of conciousness.
Unless there's something I've not read yet?

Actually, "Control" is a secondary characteristic, separate from "Awareness" of the experience.
You can be completely and perfectly lucid/astrally aware, and yet still not have any control over your surroundings. 

[Szaxx]

Hi,
Yes, that is typical. When in a flying dream, your awareness picks up at a phenomenal rate giving you the control of the dream. Normally you'd apply the physical attributes minus gravity and enjoy the sensation. Accepting the terrain in the dream as normally done. In this state you could easily project to anywhere or indeed wake up. With a little more intent and knowing much more can be attained.
A while ago in the thread I started ' want a nightmare' the idea was to attain this exact state and further details would have followed. Unfortunately not enough comments on this particular  type of dream where you force an exit came to light.
Flying dreams are much less common than bad dreams and through many experiments I found common actions to bring on the nasty ones. These make you want to exit the scene, the bad part is the emotional turmoil at exit. This controlled, and you being aware of the intent for this forced awakening, puts you in the ideal state of mind to do almost anything non physical. A totally lucid dream with total control of everything or an exit to wherever or even meditating in F21 with a question you'd like an answer to.
No one here seems to be this advanced by the comments made. Im sure I made a comment on there being more to it. (I'll read it again).
Agreed normal dreams are somewhat stupid in their internal going on. In lucid dreams you typically control your actions but ACCEPT the scene within. Awareness and knowledge that the accepted can be manipulated totally gives you a new toy to play with. As an example Ive flattened mountains to a glass smooth plateau and gone skating. Flying into a grassy hill which changed to foam like sweet tasting whatever and coming out of the other side. Being attacked by knights in armour to realise I had changed into a dragon, all come into play. ( I started this after years of nightmares around the age of 9).
It could be an Fsomething and I not being aware of this. This is very possible as all these focus levels I knew nothing about at all before mid march 2011.
They appeared as dreams and didn't relate to the many travels in the RTZ I'd experienced.
So many things read and barely anything on this depth within this dream state, if thats the correct term.
This total control dream state was in its prime from around 15 to 25 years of age. Shortly after I became discordant with that lifestyle as a new relationship started and my family started to grow. Not complaining, Its great being a granddad lol.
I was hoping for someone far in advance of my learnings to promote this state again without the emotions being 'stretched'.
Anyone?

[Lionheart]

 Ever since I have come to this site I have noticed that everything we do in the non physical can be set up like a kind of experiment. Once you train yourself to awaken in your Dreams, you will see you can "stretch" any scenario to new frontiers. I have countless of scenarios in my Dreams Log and thankfully I'm not going to bore you guys here with those experiences. A number of these Dreams have a "nightmare" like feel to them. Those are some of the easiest to become Lucid in. Since they do make you "feel" some sort of emotion. But I can definitely say that I have learned to take over total control of my own actions, people and things there still react how they want. Examples, when I do something or ask a question people still react spontaneously. I don't give them the answer or direct what they do and say. I am in control over myself and the landscape. Experimenting in this stage has become my new passion. I usually have to "re-script" quite a bit though, this is the only way I can really engage experiments, by changing my reactions to said happenings, creates new results.
 My most recent of these can be found here. http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_dreams/bathroom_trip_the_dream_killer-t37765.0.html