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Author Topic: will justice ever lead to peace  (Read 800 times)
Cool101
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« on: March 23, 2016, 03:17:36 »

Will justice ever lead too peace or is there too much desire for power and selfishness in this universe that every time justice has succeeded a new war or some sort of conflict occurs each time
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 03:24:11 by Cool101 » Logged
Lumaza
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« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2016, 04:19:05 »

Will justice ever lead too peace or is there too much desire for power and selfishness in this universe that every time justice has succeeded a new war or some sort of conflict occurs each time
No, because "Justice" for one side or faction, means "War" to the other.
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« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2016, 04:19:05 »

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Xanth
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« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2016, 05:59:54 »

Will justice ever lead too peace or is there too much desire for power and selfishness in this universe that every time justice has succeeded a new war or some sort of conflict occurs each time
Lumaza has it.  "Justice" is subjective.

Instead... try to just work on improving YOURSELF and don't worry about what the crazies next door are doing.  Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2016, 19:11:07 »

Will justice ever lead too peace or is there too much desire for power and selfishness in this universe that every time justice has succeeded a new war or some sort of conflict occurs each time
For me, as I've observed historically and currently, justice is a euphemism for revenge and as such, is reactive. Again, to me, true justice is active, in that if one were acting justly, many poor outcomes need not happen. A non specific example. If you had two factions, each with competing belief systems. If those of both factions were acting justly, they would operate with the understanding that the others beliefs are as legitimate as their own and would leave out ideas of who is right or wrong. By acting justly you would commit to a personal examination of the situation where you try imaginatively to see through the others eyes. To cultivate empathy, to nurture it and to take satisfaction in its growth in yourself is to be just. When you you look out of the eyes of another and see yourself, you will act justly.
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« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2016, 21:44:25 »

"Justice" is one of those words that gets people into trouble... not the least of which because different people think of different concepts of it, and then have a conversation about it as though everyone else in the conversation has the same concept in their head as they do.

So to even start the conversation, the definition being used must be discussed and agreed on first.

That is primarily what Plato's Republic was about actually... figuring out a definition for the concept of justice that makes sense.

Thrasymachus, one of Plato's opponents in the discussion, didn't believe there was such as thing as justice. He asserted that when people use that word, they are really talking about the tendency of the stronger to force their will on the weaker through law (thus he called justice the "advantage of the stronger"). Sadly, in my country this seems to be a large part of what law is for.

His answer by the way, was sort of strange to modern ears. He basically said that justice was when everyone did the job they were best suited to (everything in its proper place), and that within a single individual, when that person was motivated by appetites, but ruled by reason tempered by noble emotions.

Plato's idea of justice was more about what people contribute to society.

I think the modern concept of justice is more concerned with everyone receiving what they are believed to be due... be it money, or debt, reward, punishment, etc. But of course that opens up a whole new discussion about what people actually deserve, and how we know this.

Quote
A non specific example. If you had two factions, each with competing belief systems. If those of both factions were acting justly, they would operate with the understanding that the others beliefs are as legitimate as their own and would leave out ideas of who is right or wrong. By acting justly you would commit to a personal examination of the situation where you try imaginatively to see through the others eyes. To cultivate empathy, to nurture it and to take satisfaction in its growth in yourself is to be just. When you you look out of the eyes of another and see yourself, you will act justly.

This idea of justice has more to do with Plato's concept than the modern notion I think, insofar as it is concerned with how a person would best act, rather than what they are due.

I agree with it to a point, but of course there is the caveat that not every opposing position is justified or defensible. For instance, say that I am arguing to you that you do not exist. From your perpective, questions of solipsism aside, you know conclusively that you exist. Other people will be demonstrably wrong, and in situations that will have major consequences. Learning to understand their perspective is helpful, and it will help explain where they are making errors, and how to best reason with them, but I think often this does not mean that we should consider their position equally valid alongside our own. 

But outside of that, the principle applies pretty broadly. To use my own country as an example again, I think people in the US are often guilty of not fully understanding the viewpoints of their political opponents. People surround themselves with like-minded people, and frequent the same media outlets and idea exchanges. Very few people are reasonable enough to learn how their "enemies" think.
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« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2016, 21:44:25 »



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« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2016, 01:08:42 »

"Justice" is one of those words that gets people into trouble..."
 Other loaded words I avoid are god and truth. I'm not as svelte as I used to be, so to tussle with another is to be avoided.
  And, Mr Water, you may not be the wind beneath my wings but you are certainly a refreshing breeze.
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