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Author Topic: Focus 12 or beyond  (Read 16948 times)
Contenteo
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« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2012, 05:43:11 »

On the note of Pauli and Xanth:
Pauli, if it is sources you are looking for, Xanth is a source. He has scoured and read every post for years of the most prolific subjective collaboration of OBE experiences, to my knowledge, ever compiled, this site.

Just because someone found a publisher or took time to write a book doesn't make their experiences any more valid or invalid than any one of us. For instance, The F10 article by Major Tom here is Gold, pure fricking genius gold. If I ever tried to source him, people would be looking around for ground control(joke) to which they would find none. Point is, is that his desire to bring his knowledge into the limelight is no proof of his knowledge's accuracy. In this case, we have low light and great accuracy.

The greatest boon to my studies was taking everyone and their experiences as a case study. Take all their experiences, trust, but verify, and then do a mental cross-study on this great conglomeration of sources. It'll do wonders. The goal is to make a verifiable mental map of this stuff anyway, not be able to back things up with sources.

To Robin:
Quote
OBE Experience:

While laying down I was having trouble getting to sleep so thought I might experiment a bit. Went through my progressive relaxation routine until the heaviness overtook me and began using ROPE. Almost immediately I felt pressure in my solar plexus and tingling throughout my body. My chest began to vibrate which caught my focus and as I held my attention on the vibrations they sped up and moved throughout my body. I started to feel myself lifting up out of my body at this point but it wasn't quite that clear cut. I could feel the numbness in my physical body, the non-physical vibrations, and a bodily awareness moving outside my physical body all at the same time. During the whole process I also retained spatial awareness regarding the room I was in as well. It felt very much like moving outward.

LD Experience:

Was feeling restless while trying to fall asleep so thought I would play with my imagination a bit. I settled down into my usual sleeping position and started watching the mental imagery behind my closed eyes. Its always so random I wonder if this stuff is floating around in my mind all day. Most of it is cartoonish scenes mixed with constantly changing patterns of light. Suddenly a very realistic scene popped up. It was at first just a tree but it was so real I could have reached out and touched it. I looked down and could see the ground, looked up into a blue sky. Very realistic so I kept playing. At some point I must have drifted off to sleep because I don't recall a transition but I woke up in my imaginary woods scene. I knew it was a dream and I also knew I was creating it. I cant explain how I knew I was creating it, was just my sense or my feeling. I knew I was within a self created reality.

Unfortunately, I wouldn't call either of these projections. My definition of a astral projection is a full phase into F21. Neither of these sound like F21 experiences.
I don't want to rain on the parade, but I want you to build a strong mental model. A projection will be just like a dream, except you will have full control over it. You will be able to interact with the world and jump around. It is extremely, if not overly vivid. You are doing well. I highly recommend doing many drowsy attempts before ever attempting a WILD. They are cut out for red-flag experts only. EXTREMELY DIFFICULT. It's why some monks must devote their entire life to honing that one skill. It takes a lifetime.

Cheers all,
Contenteo



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« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2012, 09:43:36 »

I don't want to rain on the parade, but I want you to build a strong mental model. A projection will be just like a dream, except you will have full control over it. You will be able to interact with the world and jump around. It is extremely, if not overly vivid.
Robert Moss is in an interview here speaking on what he labels Active Dreaming, which is what we are labeling as projection. In his Active Dreaming, you are fully consciously aware you are Dreaming and are entirely in control the whole time. Robert says "Dreaming is not fundamentally about what happens during sleep. It's about waking up". Think about this statement for a minute and you will see he is 100% right.
 Most people don't know that they can #1 control their Dreams or even #2 Re script them. They just view them and remember the extreme ones. I am just beginning to read his book Active Dreaming and am thoroughly impressed by what I see. His interview was fantastic as well. Give this a listen if you get the chance, it's well worth it, especially when he starts talking about Collective Dreaming and how it saved some islanders during the Indonesia/Thailand Earthquake/Tsunami.
 You can skip to the 38 minute mark to hear only the Robert Moss interview. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOHi5Zh-fRg
« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 10:18:45 by Lionheart » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2012, 09:43:36 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Pauli2
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« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2012, 12:05:52 »

Described by Monroe as falling asleep, yet remaining consciously aware.
I fully agree with this sentiment and experience it in that fashion too.

These are the definitions which Robert and Frank mention... and which I fully support.
Is the phasing Frank did any different from what Monroe suggested in his third book
from what I say when I say "Phasing"?

In my opinion, those are two different kinds of "phasings".

I can say for may heart that Monroe and Kepple speak about different things.

Monroe and F Kepple "phasing" are described by these two persons in quite
different ways. Kepple often used words which resembled LDs, but maybe not
the typical LD. Kepple also (at least in the start) used the expression "project"
as in (Frank's posts PDF) post 2350 (July 05, 2002):

"That's the time I project always, early morning."

(The interested reader could read the related thread, it's about WILD, but not one
time F Kepple uses the abbrev. WILD unless it is something "wild and whacky".)

Remeber further that F Kepple often entered what he called phasing from an LD,
so perhaps some (many? all?) of his experiences were LDs.


Monroe on the other side often used the expression OBE.

When Monroe talked about phasing, it seemed to be something different, like
when course participants were listening to Hemi-Sync and changing their state
of awareness into F 10, while Skip Atwater was directing them from his booth
or from a tape excercise.

Also, Monroe completely stopped to dream, he no longer had _any_ regular dreams,
and thus didn't have the initial Kepple LD. Instead Monroe could OBE from any restfull
state. Monroe didn't even have to sleep.

In one of his later books, Monroe mentions that it was enough for him to place
himself in a relaxed state and his non-physical body would hover up in the air
above his physical body.

Also, perhaps the most important difference between Monroe and Kepple, one
of them started with RTZ OBEs, while the other usually started from LDs.

Having read both men's descriptions of their definitions, I have to say that
"phasing" in Monroe speak, means something different than in Kepple speak.
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Pauli2
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« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2012, 12:34:25 »

On the note of Pauli and Xanth:
Pauli, if it is sources you are looking for, Xanth is a source. He has scoured
and read every post for years of the most prolific subjective collaboration
of OBE experiences, to my knowledge, ever compiled, this site.

But that's not good enough for me, as Xanth seems to think LD and OBE are the same things,
which I (with my limited experience) have to reject.

In an OBE, even for the few seconds before I've lost the OBE into an LD, I can say my
OBEs had completely different feelings to them, than becoming lucid in a dream. Being OBE
was like being awake in real life, just with the difference that I knew there was something
different
going on. My mind was crisp clear and I was myself. My poor lack of any deeper
experiences will not change that fact.

So my conclusion is that Xanth may have had hundreds of LDs, but I think it's highly
unlikely that he has ever had a real OBE, which also is implied in this thread.


To Robin:
Unfortunately, I wouldn't call either of these projections. My definition
of a astral projection is a full phase into F21. Neither of these sound like
F21 experiences.

Contenteo,
you really have to comment on this one as there have become too many mangled
words describing altered states:

LD.
OBE.
Projection into F 21.


My question to you, do you believe there exists such a thing as an RTZ OBE?
If you don't believe in the existence of the RTZ or the existence of OBE,
perhaps you should mention that before talking about "projection"?

There are more to this. For example, do you not consider a projection to F 15
as being a projection?

How do you define projection? Does it feel like an LD or like an OBE and how does
it relate to phasing (you could pick one of Kepple/Monroe)?
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Stillwater
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« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2012, 13:39:09 »

Quote
But that's not good enough for me, as Xanth seems to think LD and OBE are the same things,
which I (with my limited experience) have to reject.

They may be similar experiences, along a spectrum. Comparing OBE's I've had to the few LD's, it is a matter of coherence and clarity, partially; that, and I find LD's seem to have a sort of narritive to them, even if I percieve myself to be in control. OBE, while some I have had were narritive-driven, are a bit more existential, in that what happens seems to be up to where your mind wants to take things.

Perhaps they are the same thing, I don't know... like I said, I tend to think they occur on a sort of overlapping spectrum, where the variable is self-awareness and clarity.
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« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2012, 13:39:09 »



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« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2012, 13:43:14 »

Hi,
An example from Frank,
 Title: 1901  Astral Project...
Document: null (p.374)

Highlighted text
......................................
1901  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / WILD vs. Phasing on: December 11, 2002, 18:03:46  Lucid dreaming is Monroe's Focus 22 state. There is the Astral bridge zone at Focus 21 and if you cross that bridge you enter into the first of the realms where thought equals direct action. In other words, as you think so it becomes all around you.  The only difference between uncontrolled dreaming and lucid dreaming is your degree of conscious control, which also affects your memory of the experience. So where you say, "It would seem to me that Lucid Dreaming, and dreaming in general, is a phasing of the consciousness into a different "focus" level" you are quite correct. And basically that Focus level is, as I say, Focus 22.  So dreaming in general is mind at the F22 state with next to no conscious control. Lucid dreaming is mind at the F22 state with a good measure of conscious control.
..................................
Its apparent that theres only F22 involved in a WILD yet from phasing to F21 the entire multiverse is at your call. This is fact from experiences to many to count. Generally the phase method gives a clarity that exceeds the WILD technique and this is stated many times by many authors and projectors alike.
Although Franks view is changing from 2002 to 2005 (where Im up to) he's seeing that its all internal processes making the OBE mnemonic somewhat akin to the sun revolving around planet earth.
Im thinking along the same lines as some of my experiences leave Franks behind like a caveman. Research on this is proving futile so my enigma continues. I'll read more on this subject from other authors over time and may change my viewpoint. Frank has a very good knowledge as others and reading ALL his posts I have found nothing thats total bs. The only thing I would question is these reality fluctuations in the RTZ, this can be prevented but not in this topic.
Interesting debate...
----------------------------------------
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« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2012, 14:10:40 »

Hi,
An example from Frank...

Szaxx, is that an attempt to make history forgery, because it's
very difficulty to know where Frank's post ends and you opinions
start?

Could you please put better quote marks around whoever you quote,
because I first thought all the text was from Frank until I opened up
my own copy of the Frank's posts PDF.

I still claim - Frank never used the expression "WILD" in any of his posts
or Newsletters, so claiming that WILD is the same as "Frank phasing" is,
in my opinion, at least very flawed, but probably invalid.


Besides, the Frank quote you gave, points to one more problematic matter,
Frank believed LD is mind at Focus 22, while Monroe talks about Focus 15:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_FhfHoqiPw&feature=related

Interestingly enough Monroe says that LDs are equivalent to F 15.
Listen to the interview around 1:00 - 1:35, when he answers the
questions about using LD as springboard to OBE. Not much talk
about "phasing" there.

The big difference on the matter of F 22 vs F 15, in regards of LDs, is that Monroe invented
the Focus concept, measured brain wave states with scientific equipment, using MDs & Ph D
scientists to validate those Focus Levels, while Frank, in my opinion, did no such
research.


And others of you, please stop shoving up my face that I lack OBE experience,
to invalidate my quotes on what Monroe/Buhlman/Bruce have said.
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« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2012, 14:26:24 »

Pauli,

I am in agreement with your definition of OBE's versus LD's. I wish others would just try to experience a real OBE, so they would know there is a difference. They have to realize there needs to be an actual soul exit through one of the locations of the body. Without this exit separation, they are not having a real OBE.

Keep on posting Pauli. I continue to gain information from them.
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« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2012, 14:35:46 »

Hi,
Those dotted lines start and finish the text.
Its the first time I've transferred info this way using my phone. At least it worked.
Its confusing working out where to fit everything.
Up to F21 you are not OOB. At this point the doorway opens to the astral, RTZ and many other 'realms'.
Im still learning other peoples focus levels etc and so far the above seems to tie in with experience.
I've been alone up to March 2011 and joined this site for info. Some ties up 100% while other viewpoints do not totally. What works one day is useless the next and over time things change too. Its really subjective and this itself causes confusion hence the quote based on the earth being the center of the universe.
The more we learn the less we know cannot be stressed enough and based on experience this makes objectives subjective as the basics are a personal thing and we all are different within our mindset.
We learn together and indifferences will erupt at times. Agree to disagree until the learning is studied more. Viewpoints are so valid or we end up in the same hole. Ptolemy Copernicus et al had problems in this.
Its still interesting, moreso...
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« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2012, 14:56:35 »

Comparing OBE's I've had to the few LD's . . .

Perhaps they are the same thing, I don't know...

Stillwater,
you write "the same thing"?

Do you really consider LDs and OBEs being the _same_ thing?
Or do you mean "similar" thing?

Because I have found quotes from all the big writers; Monroe, Buhlman, Peterson etc,
where they talk about LDs and OBEs being "similar or different", but not the same.

Even dream researcher Ph D LaBerge, who rejects (*) the existence of an OBE outside the
body, talks about LDs being "different" from OBEs, yet LaBerge considers OBEs being
"mind-only" experiences, and _not_ real in even the most broad sense.


(*) Well, LaBerge doesn't completely reject the OBE-realness, he merely states that
there is a lack of well based scientific evidence that any OBE really exists outside
the brain/mind, than anything else than a dream illusion.
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« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2012, 15:54:11 »

But that's not good enough for me, as Xanth seems to think LD and OBE are the same things,
which I (with my limited experience) have to reject.
Fair enough.  I speak from personal experience though.
However, you're really limiting your options when you decide to throw the baby out with the bathwater like this.

Quote
In an OBE, even for the few seconds before I've lost the OBE into an LD, I can say my
OBEs had completely different feelings to them, than becoming lucid in a dream. Being OBE
was like being awake in real life, just with the difference that I knew there was something
different
going on. My mind was crisp clear and I was myself. My poor lack of any deeper
experiences will not change that fact.
Of course there is a "different feeling" to them.  That different feeling is based around how aware you are.  I've proven this to myself on countless occasions as I've taken a lucid dream (lucid awareness experience) and increased my awareness using the technique I do so I have a waking awareness (ie: as I feel right now) and have experienced the range of "different feelings" in a single non-physical experience by doing this.  I've directly experienced each level within the same experience.  I've done enough tests for this to be a personal truth.

As I've pointed out before, your awareness can also differ just as greatly while in this physical reality.
Your awareness when you first wake up in the morning after opening your eyes compared to later in the day when you're fully awake.  Both have completely different feelings to them, but most people don't pay any attention to them because, well, they fully believe they're awake in this physical reality.  Nobody looks at the spectrum of awareness "here" and compares it to "there".

They may be similar experiences, along a spectrum. Comparing OBE's I've had to the few LD's, it is a matter of coherence and clarity, partially; that, and I find LD's seem to have a sort of narritive to them, even if I percieve myself to be in control. OBE, while some I have had were narritive-driven, are a bit more existential, in that what happens seems to be up to where your mind wants to take things.
And they do have a "sort of narrative" to them.  That's because you're not fully consciously aware of what's going on.  You only realize that you're in a reality which isn't this physical reality.  So the narrative of the original dream can still have a lot of influence over what happens.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 16:22:40 by Xanth » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2012, 16:23:11 »

Quote
Stillwater,
you write "the same thing"?

Do you really consider LDs and OBEs being the _same_ thing?
Or do you mean "similar" thing?

That statement I made refers back to the context of the post- the general thesis of the post is that there are similarities between them, but I believe they are different points along a spectrum of consciousness; the statement that "perhaps they are the same thing" is my way of admiting that my knowledge obviously has limitations, and the polar opposite of my thesis may still be true.
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« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2012, 17:31:18 »

Hi gang,

Maybe I can shed some light on the topic.

First, it is important to realize that it all starts with experience. Labels have no value outside of it except when they clarify the experience.

With regards to focus 12, to understand its usefulness and inadequacy at times as a label, a little historical context:

You can look it up in various places or verify elsewhere if you want to provide a more complete picture. Or correct me where I'm wrong.

But, when Monroe started out in his laboratory together with the explorers like Campbell, during the early development of the Gateway Program, they knew that these various states were associated with decreased levels of sensory input, or facilitated by them. The body appeared to be asleep, or slightly out of phase of the physical, while the mind was awake, which is what the physiological date showed when measuring the subjects. They called the state focus 10 (Mind awake/Body Asleep).

At the same, another quantifier quickly appeared to have come in, where focus 10 not only referred to body asleep, but already applied when sensory input was slightly reduced. This is probably where some of the confusion already happened, where the body did not have to completely asleep to consider yourself to be in focus 10.

Perhaps this was because some participants reported experiences, like different imagery, but still found themselves connected to the physical body, which was not entirely asleep. Either way, the definitions of focus 10 did not seem as strict anymore as before.

To resolve some of that confusion, I much later made a distinction between a light and deeper focus 10 in my focus 10 paper. Although it was not ideal, since the term "body asleep" itself did not fully apply anymore, at least not in a light focus 10.

But back to the earlier history of Monroe. The concept of focus 12 was introduced, perhaps in an attempt to resolve the same confusion.

By this time, it seems that the idea of a lighter focus 10, where perhaps the body might not be entirely asleep had already creeped in, and focus 12 was often referred to a state where the body was more completely asleep than in a focus 10.

In other words, what was originally a strict focus 10 where the body was completely asleep, now became focus 12. It was also for the same reason that it was believed that the OBE either occured in focus 10, focus 12, or perhaps somewhere in between. The gateway tapes, if they have not changed since I have seen them, reflect that with out of body exercises both for focus 10 and 12.

To yet further confuse the issue, not every Gateway participants experienced the typical OBE as described by Monroe where he literally left the body.

Rather, they experienced all manner of imagery, and scenery, with varying degrees of immersion and presence. On some occasions these sound like remote viewing type of experiences, occuring in a partial state of sensory reduction (like a pre-body asleep state), and other times, they may go further similar to an OBE during which you actually find yourself in an entirely different location than the physical body (like a full body asleep state).

The latter situation is the most interesting, since for all practical intents and purposes, these are OBEs, which are defined as an experience where you find yourself at a location than your physical body (even though there is no literal seperation).

Then later on, in the 90s, LaBerge comes along with the term WILD, which refers to anything wake induced, after which you start to dream lucidly. The classic OBE fell within in the scope of that label, as did the situation where you for example find yourself in a different location without classic feelings of seperation.

The idea became hugely popular on the internet, despite the fact that it has been shown again and again there is no REM during an OBE with any adept projector, but let me stay on track here.

The gateway program developed further, as did Monroe, and new focus levels come into play. There's focus 15, which monroe describes as no time, and noone really has a clue to what it means.

More interesting was the idea of focus 21, which was the edge of time space according to Monroe. He suggested that you could no longer stay comfortably stay in contact with the physical body in focus 21.

So yet again, here we appear to have the 2nd or 3rd time where the idea of "mind awake/body asleep" is being stretched, to not only extent to focus 12, but now to focus 21 where the mind is fully being disconnected from sensory input.

The problem with all this is that while what the label 21 refers to seems clear, it puts the concepts of focus 10 and focus 12 in disarray, in the same way that the concept of focus 12, put the concept of focus 10 in disarray at the time.

The reality of it is that the transition into out of body state involves the body falling asleep, or otherwise disconnecting the mind entirely from sensory input. You can say it happens in focus 10, according to a strict defination of focus 10; you can say it happens in focus 12, according to the idea that only then the body is entirely asleep; or you can say it happens in focus 21, according to the idea that only then you are completely disconnected from the physical body. Take your pick.

What is far more interesting are the different pathways through which the out of body state can be established. It can occur through a literal sense of seperation, or by simply becoming part of some imagery.

These are the main two different pathways towards the out of body state, where during one you maintain body awareness in the course of the transition process, whereas during the other you do not. This is the fundamental difference in my opinion, which I elaborate on in my book, and resolves all of this confusion.

I call them asomatic and parasomatic transitions, which are accurate descriptors of the experience, rather than metaphors, labels or interpretations.

But with regards to the terminology used here, in terms of the focus levels, things can get a little bit confusing, unless you realize it is just about reduced sensory input, and "phasing" out of the physical. Noone is really or right or wrong, it's just that the labels have evolved and changed over the years.

Regarding Frank, since I was around at the time, he seemed to naturally take a more lucid dreaming, or WILD approach, in the manner that he induced his experiences.

He did not experience the classic seperation initially, although he later on learned how to do it.

Mind you, the label WILD can include the classic seperation, which is wake-induced as well, but Frank intially said he sort of just found himself projected or catupulted into an "astral environment", which is the case for most lucid dreamers as well who practice WILDS.

After a while, becoming more aware of the work Monroe and Bruce Moen, he refered to it as "phasing" instead, and the idea of a mental rundown, or visualization exercises to get the same effect.

I'm not sure whether the label of "phasing" was really entirely intended that way, and it is also a rather metaphorical term, not always representing the experience that well.

But the way Frank initially understood it was simply that the term captured his experience of ending up inside an out of body environment without any classic sense of seperation. It moved on from there, and became more elaborate.

It excited a lot of people, since many people had trouble with inducing the classic OBE, the occult and mystical approaches appeared to have become cumbersome, LaBerge's star was rising, and perhaps there were easier ways to establish the out of body state, similar to WILD induction methods (it's not easier), while maintaining some of the more metaphysical aspects of Monroe's phasing metaphor.

It was the perfect storm.
 
In sum, labels can be confusing if not aware of the historical context, and the various influences that brought them about. For that reason, I think the best labels are those that accurately describe the experience, since that is where it all starts.

It tends to get confusing when they refer to a theorectical concept, or an idea, such as for example the term Wake Induced Lucid Dream. It describes the experience to some extent, but there is also the assumption that you are dreaming.

The same goes for the term "astral projection", which is an interpretation of the experience as well.

In any case, hope this sheds some light.

MT
« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 19:33:39 by Major Tom » Logged
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« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2012, 19:40:11 »

Thanks Major Tom,
let me add my 2 cents.

The body appeared to be asleep, or slightly out of phase of the physical,
while the mind was awake, which is what the physiological date showed
when measuring the subjects. They called the state focus 10 (Mind awake/Body Asleep).

According to Wikipedia, NREM, stage 1 sleep - exhibits some kind
of characteristic like F 10:

"People aroused from this stage often believe that they have been fully awake."

If stage 1 sleep is the same as (some kind of) F 10, that's an open question to me,
but I think the idea is interesting as TMI doesn't provide too much info on these
Focus Level matters.


Perhaps this was because some participants reported experiences, like different imagery,
but still found themselves connected to the physical body, which was not entirely asleep.
Either way, the definitions of focus 10 did not seem as strict anymore as before.

To resolve some of that confusion, I much later made a distinction between a light and
deeper focus 10 in my focus 10 paper. Although it was not ideal, since the term
"body asleep" itself did not fully apply anymore, at least not in a light focus 10.

But back to the earlier history of Monroe. The concept of focus 12 was introduced,
perhaps in an attempt to resolve the same confusion.

When listening to the instructions on the Gateway Wave CDs, I also get the impression
that there exists _at least_ two different kinds of F 12.

In Monroe's second book, he mentions that when the Explorers began to state the Gateway Affirmation,
requesting help from guides or helpers, things started to develop from the initial F 10
experiments. It's a little unclear how much the Affirmation contributed to the creation of the
F 12 concept, but it had some importance.

Further, from mail friend I have gotten the information that Monroe discovered that F 10
actually split into two different Focus Levels, one was the well known F 12, but the other
was F 11. Sometimes F 11 is named the "Access Channel", and F 11 is used much in the
TMI Hemi-Sync CDs called H+ (or Human Plus).

While F 12 is an extorization, F 11 is some kind of internalization, to one part of our I-There,
even if the actual I-There is located in F 42, we can reach some part connected to us through F 11.

I think at least one exercise on the GateWay Wave CDs is made to F 11.

(Beyond F 12 there is the very little known F 13, and I will come back on that matter
in a book review once I've finished reading Suddenly Psychic.)


It was also for the same reason that it was believed that the OBE either occured in
focus 10, focus 12, or perhaps somewhere in between. The gateway tapes, if they
have not changed since I have seen them, reflect that with out of body exercises both
for focus 10 and 12.

It doesn't seem that it's absolutely clear from the Gateway instructions, what Focus Level
you are attempting an OBE. There even is one exercise in F 21, which is a sort of lift-out
procedure.

When choosing between F 10 and F 12, my impression is that the Gateway Wave CDs put
more importance on F 12 to have an OBE, or at least some kind of specialization of F 12,
the "log rolling" (Wave 3) and the "sensing Locale I" (Wave 6) all seem to be F 12 methods
of moving around or feeling the energy-body move within or out of the physical body.

As I'm extremely poor at OBE, but seem to be an expert at experiencing vibrations,
I have had best luck with the "sensing Locale I" CD, even if I have gotten no OBE.


Then later on, in the 90s, LaBerge comes along with the term WILD, which refers
to anything wake induced, after which you start to dream lucidly. The classic OBE
fell within in the scope of that label. . .

The statement (I shorten it) that "classic OBE fell within the label WILD",
I want to say something about that.

The statement is not exactly what LaBerge has written, and I have read his research
reports on at least three different web sites, with some minor modifications.

(I also think that some results have come from scientists Gabbard and Twemlow.)


For my reference of LaBerge's findings, I will use the version published on TMI's web site,
as TMI is closest to the matter of OBE, even if that version is shortened and mixed
with a multitude of other scientific findings.


I get it that, LaBerge states the following:

* OBE and LD seem to be different phenomena.
* OBE can arise from both WILDs and DILDs.
* OBE is 4 times more likely to arise from a WILD (than a DILD).

* Most WILDs only results in regular LDs (about 70 %).
* The number of WILDs and DILDs were small in the study. Further studies are needed to enhance statistic significance.


So to me, a WILD is no guarantee to an OBE. Remember further that the persons
LaBerge used, were highly skilled in achieving LDs.

Also, LaBerge didn't do too much to verify if the OBE was real, but the validation
experiments he tried, showed failures. And that's the reason LaBerge thinks OBEs
are mind-only illusions, much like traditional science thinks.
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Major Tom
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« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2012, 21:02:40 »

Hi Pauli,

I interpret the work of LaBerge to be less ambigious than that. He does appear to make the point that OBEs are more like dreams than anything else. Most other scientists in this area interpret it in the same way, and I haven't seen LaBerge deny it anywhere.  

e.g. http://library.macewan.ca/lucidity/LL%204.2/Out%20of%20body%20experiencesas%20lucid%20dreams-Rogo.htm

I think part of the ambiguity in those articles referred to in Jouni's OBE FAQ also stems from not clearly defining the terminology, as well as from the debate at the time whether or not you are really out of the body or not during an OBE, which I consider to be seperate issue.

Purely from a phenomenological stand-point, as per the experience itself, I consider (lucid) dreams to be an OBE (i.e. you experience yourself in a different location than that of the physical body). However, I do not consider all OBEs to be lucid dreams in the sense that the experience of being in a seperate location from your body always coincides with REM.

To put it in a way that would annoy my old math teacher:

(A = B) does not equal (B = A)

In any case, a lot can be said about this debate about the relationship between lucid dreams and OBEs. I had a longer disccussion with one of LaBerge's collaborators about it if interested:

http://www.explorations-in-consciousness.com/forums/index.php?topic=699.msg4259#msg4259

In the end, the conclusion may be that it may not matter a great deal. It simply depends on what you consider dreams to be, useless or valuable in some other way like many shamanistic traditions do for example as portals to "other worlds".

I have not heard of focus 11 or 13 before, but was aware Monroe locates his IThere both "in a slightly out of phase" location as well as beyond focus 27.

I think was part of his realization that there is no real difference between internalized and externalized modes of of travel in consciousness.

Where did your friend get the information about focus 11? I ask, because people have recently come up with all sorts of numbers, some of them self-invented, and not always originating from TMI.

MT
« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 21:34:50 by Major Tom » Logged
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« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2012, 21:59:04 »

Where did your friend get the information about focus 11?

I think you can hear it on some H+ H-S CDs, as well in some youtubes, so I think
the F 11 concept itself is fairly well known from TMI.

But my mail friend came with the statement from lessons from one of the more
advanced TMI courses, that Monroe got the impression that F 10 got split, and
it's from this only source I have got the info that Monroe viewed the F 10 to split
into two different Focus Levels. I think the info came from one of the TMI trainers.
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« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2012, 22:08:56 »

Mind you, the label WILD can include the classic seperation, which is
wake-induced as well, but Frank intially said he sort of just found himself
projected or catupulted into an "astral environment", which is the case for
most lucid dreamers as well who practice WILDS.

This "catapulting" event bothers me.

Are you saying that all LDers who enter the astral from an LD, experience
that they are "catapulted" into the astral? Or is it only those who enter from
a WILD? Maybe you should clarify, because my LDs have never had any
catapult effect involved, but that could be that I'm DILD-only aware?

But I would like you to say some more on this matter.
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« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2012, 22:20:09 »

Hi Pauli,

This is just the term I remember him using, in reference to his past experiences.

The way I understood it, he initially had no good idea of how he ended up ended in an environment, usually quite suddenly, as is often reported by lucid dreamers doing WILDs as well, where they often find themselves becoming part of a dream environment rather abruptly.

I'm talking more or less wake-induced here, although often in clouded states of consciousness. DILDS would be different.

It goes to show, the price for best controlled transitions into any sort of "out-of-body state" still goes to the OBE community as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks for the info on focus 11. Sounds interesting.

MT
« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 22:26:22 by Major Tom » Logged
Lionheart
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« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2012, 22:42:49 »

 Wow, now I can understand why I was told to drop the labels. This is almost like a conversation on Religion, where everyone is right to a point, but has their own way of saying it. Too many bulls running into each other here.  smiley
 I like Tom Campbell's terminology the best, "Accessing the Wider Reality". It pretty well tallies up what we are doing and what our goals are in one statement!  smiley
« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 22:58:36 by Lionheart » Logged
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« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2012, 23:04:40 »

Wow, now I can understand why I was told to drop the labels. This is almost like a conversation on Religion, where everyone is right to a point, but has their own way of saying it.

Yup.  smiley

I had that thought about that the other day. It's important to a lot of people, because the topic of OBEs touches on so much more than just an opinion. It's deeply personal for many, very much like religion.

Perhaps for good reason, because most here believe it is related to survival and continuity after death in some way.

Noone does not get a little bit fanatic about that when push comes to shove.

MT
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 00:55:55 by Major Tom » Logged
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