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Author Topic: Is obe really what you think it is?  (Read 15227 times)
clandestino
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« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2004, 21:39:58 »

ha ha ....that's what I meant, the collective Subconcious, sorry !! A collective conciousness would be a bit scary !

 
quote:
Also, the collective subconscious doesn't necessarily mean that our "normal" consciousness we use all day remains after death.


I agree. For me anyway, it indicates that there is something that exists beyond raw physical matter.

Referring back to Beavis' original post, Castaneda's Don Juan described the act of seeing as perceiving the energy of an object. This differs from looking at an object, using our eyes.

If one observes an object within a dream and then sees that it has no energy signature, then it is a construct of the mind. If one can see its energy, it is "real".

According to castaneda anyway !

kind regards,
Mark
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Rastus
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« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2004, 22:18:33 »

I think I haven't actually expressed this directly to the forum:  Whether Wiccan, Shaman, Metaphysicist, or Physic; it is essentially all the same thing.  So what if someone listens to Brainwave tapes and another casts a circle while a third calls on their ancestors,; they are all doing the same thing with different physical references.  I've always maintained that mouthing words that have no meaning aren't going to be as nearly effective as something you've done yourself!!!

I got that from a science fiction book(well, all Magic(k) is the same, just do it).  In fact there is a LOT of fiction that is inspired by Astral happenings.  The most famous is probably The Xanadu poem (if that wasn't AP, nothing is).  There are many inventions attributed to dreams (but we know what they really were don't we?).

Maybe its studying other disciplines, but there are so many parallels.  Religion seems the same way:  So many got part of it right, but enough wrong to really confuse people (purely for political reasons no doubt, at least for Christianity and Islam).
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« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2004, 22:18:33 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Michael_E
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« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2004, 15:01:21 »

quote:
Originally posted by Veccolo

But I still think that the consciousness (as we know it) is brain-dependent.



You do have a point with this veccolo. Nuerophysiologist have shown consciousness to be located in certain areas in the brain and if those areas are damaged or removed an organism wont be conscious anymore.

 There are some cases reported that individuals who have damage to the pathways for conscious perception in the temporal cortex will lose conscious perception of vision but are still  perfectly capable of seeing. That is if you were to ask someone with damage to certain areas in the temporal cortex to pick up an item off a table they would say "how, i cant see?" claiming they are blind, but after some coaxing when told to just try and pick up the item they will successfully pick it up, and when asked how they did that will say they got lucky.

Beavis,
i]Magnetism and electrcity are very closely related. if the above were true then we would potentially be able to view a magnetic field in the dark since light is not required for thier to be a magnetic field. but so far people who can view aruas at will report that they cannot see them in the dark, so in order to see them light could be required to have some kind of action on the field.
[/i]

Why was I able to move things that arent affected by magnetism (like paper) with telekinesis?

Could be another form of energy other than magnetisim that did the moving?
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Jarthur
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« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2004, 17:19:32 »

Hey Beavis,

I believe this issue is closely related to the "Guardian at the Threshold" or Doppelganger.

I'm aware of what RB says in the book of course but he's human. Actually he's probably thinking along the lines of "you've worked hard, you made it this far, go out and have fun, we'll deal with the guardian later". I would think he'll talk about it in the next book.

If the guardian is not recognized for what he really is and dealt with appropriately, he recedes and becomes the astral environment. Although some parts are reality, most are fantasy and there is no way to distinguish between the two.

If you're interested in more info, Rudolf Steiner's "An Outline of Occult Science" is a good source.

Edit: Having re-read the passage in "Astral Dynamics" I have to apologize for putting words in RB's mouth. His ideas on the subject are clear and he has a lot more experience than I do.
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ralphm
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« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2004, 04:50:12 »

This is a great topic to consider,unfortunately I feel like I am no closer to figuring anything out after having a couple dozen experiences of my own. I can only read stuff by the great people in this field such as the already mentioned RB, castreneda. steiner and try to intergrate what they say to what I have experienced. Maybe the best I heard was from a tibetian is to be practicing awareness whether awake or asleep.
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« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2004, 04:50:12 »



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Veccolo
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« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2004, 09:35:15 »

Yes, another problem is that even the "great" disagree on this. Monroe and Bruce (as far as I've read) believe that consciousness survives death, Castaneda (Don Juan) says it doesn't (unless you have enough "energy").

Who is right? Juan with his "thousands of years old knowledge", or Bruce with his "mixture" of different systems/beliefs?

I don't know, but the "life" after "death" is probably different from what all say. IMO.
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upstream
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« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2004, 13:20:51 »

maybe the answer depends on what do you think you are



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James S
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« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2004, 21:55:16 »

Good answer Upstream!

Our beliefs go a long way to determining what we experience, despite the fact that the reverse is also true.
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Veccolo
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« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2004, 22:31:59 »

Well, if it is all a belief thing, then both parties are equally right and wrong, which makes a discussion quite useless.

On the other hand, belief doesn't change reality. It might change your perception of it, but not reality itself. This means one party has to be right on this subject.

This brings us back to the question: Who is right?

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kiauma
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« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2004, 00:38:04 »

Again, I see we are trying to distill 'reality' down to a simple yes or no question.

Think about it.
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Veccolo
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« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2004, 01:04:54 »

Yes, because it is a simple yes or no question. There is an objective reality which we subjectivley perceive. Belief can change the subjective reality, not the objective one.

A man who believes he can fly still dies after jumping out of the window. Think about it.
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James S
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« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2004, 01:13:55 »

I don't know about that.

Changing objective reality is the essence of magic.

As a quote I recently heard goes:
"There is nothing real outside our perception of reality, is there?"

- James.
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Veccolo
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« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2004, 01:39:17 »

Time for the quotes, eh? Smiley

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."  ~Philip K. willy
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kiauma
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« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2004, 01:46:59 »

The opposite of a small truth is a falsehood.  The opposite of a great Truth is another great Truth.

~I ferget.
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kiauma
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« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2004, 01:50:12 »

Even better,

"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."

~Anais Nin
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James S
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« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2004, 02:04:35 »

Ok, how about:

"I'm not sure that made any sense, but I'm afraid that if I go back to figure it out, I'll start bleeding from my ears."

 - Londo Molari, Babylon 5

[Wink]
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kiauma
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« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2004, 02:10:48 »

If you stop believing in God, does God really go away - or have you just closed yourself off to awareness of the divine?

Yes or no - quickly...
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kiauma
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« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2004, 02:12:42 »

Londo was the coolest when the show started, and then got screwed the worst when the show ended.

Sad.
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Veccolo
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« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2004, 02:59:01 »

quote:
Originally posted by kiauma

If you stop believing in God, does God really go away - or have you just closed yourself off to awareness of the divine?

Yes or no - quickly...



Sounds like a trick question, but I'll answer anyway. Yes, he goes away, because there is no god.

Now one for you: Why does it require belief to perceive god?
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Veccolo
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« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2004, 03:02:05 »

Nice quotes btw Smiley

I just want to give one last advice: If you look for the truth, try to disprove the knowledge you already seem to have. Don't stop thinking for yourself, even if a higher being (be it higher self, angel, god, whoever) tells you how things "really" are. Question them and try the opposite of what they tell you - if you dare of course.

That's imo the only way to sort out the BS from the facts.
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beavis
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« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2004, 06:19:28 »

Veccolo (page 2): How can a nonphysical thing (you say consciousness) interact with a physical thing (brain), if they are inside two different systems?

Its the same system. Physical is a part of astral. Chakras are permanent astral connections to the body that make it easier.

Also, if the nonphysical only can use small force on the physical as you say, how do you explain psychokinesis?

I've never seen psychokinesis that had a big force. Its always small things that move.

But I still think that the consciousness (as we know it) is brain-dependent.

It depends on spirit, brain, and environment.
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Veccolo
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« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2004, 08:02:27 »

> It depends on spirit, brain, and environment.

But does the every-day consciousness (the one I use to write this text and to think about the subjects discussed here) still remain if the brain and our earthly environment "vanish" with death?

Or to use other words: Is the consciousness which remains after death really comparable to (with?) the consciousness we have now?

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beavis
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« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2004, 08:44:14 »

Veccolo, without your brain, you lose part of your consciousness, because obviously brain is part of it. But you gain some consciousness that you forgot you had. Some is the same and some is different.
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Veccolo
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« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2004, 08:51:08 »

Interesting. Thanks for your POV on this subject.

(and to everyone else of course)
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upstream
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« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2004, 10:45:23 »

I hate the word "non-physical." By definition it mean something that unable to interact with physical things. Some possibilities: 1. consciousness is physical & non-physical at the same time; 2. "non-physical" term is useless because "non-physical" things are only continuation of things we could measure with you current equipment; 3. we are nuts talking about consciousness (these possibilities don't exclude each other)

I think consciousness is (1) a higher function of any self-regulating system that has already passed through some sufficient tresholds of complexity, (2) an ability of self-reflexion, and (3) enhanced control on internal and external events (seemingly against the trend of "global" termodinamical processes).

When I've said that you are what you think, I meant that if someone think that he or she (as a person with given desires and personal methods for acting, thinking and perceiving) will survive death then one could be wrong. However, if you identify yourself with "something else" death doesn't mean the end for you...

Of course, in a given extent I agree with you, James, but I'm still think that natural laws are exist, at least, as some consensus between your super-consciousnesses (they set up our current limits by determining our sensory machanisms).



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