Trying to AP through LD. Help...

[Phalanx]

 Okay so lately I got back into trying to AP after a few months of hiatus.

 Aside from trying about mid day after a nap using personalreality's method from his How I Got Out For The First Time post, I also try a way of going about using Lucid Dreams as a spring board. First I attempt becoming lucid in a dream and then trying franks becoming curious idea about one thing in the dream to have it dissolve and become the true astral or how shall it be put a higher Focus I think.
 Well going about this I am having a strange issue which is odd to explain. I am "dreaming" about becoming lucid... but not really becoming lucid, I just dreamed that I was... I think. If anyone understands what I am talking about please help me figure out what is going on as I would like to be able to fix it.

 Also when I do get a actual lucid dream or something like stated above I always try to fly up out of earths (or which ever planet thing that I am on) atmosphere but when I do I always hit about cloud level and then there is like a barrier or force field that prevents me to go any higher and trying to get past it usually causes the current experience to end and me to wake up. This never happened when I was younger I used to always go out deep into space but defining earth as home and fear of being lost I would always stay close enough where I could find earth. Anyone know why this is happening?

 Now though I do talk about dreaming a lot in this, this might be moved to the "Dream" area of these forums and I wish it doesn't because my end goal is the true sense of AP, that is what I am aiming for. I personally believe that lucid dream's and astral projection's are one and the same just at different levels... much like Franks definition that an lucid dream is an AP but just in a lower level (focus) where it is all emotion based creation.

[EscapeVelocity]

Phalanx,

There is nothing here that you need to fix, in fact this shows that what you are doing is working to some degree. By using the methods you described you have re-programmed your inner computer and that software re-write is showing up in your dreams by dreaming about becoming lucid. This is a confirmation that your work is paying off.

One way that I look at this process is that this re-programming initiates an internal dialog with our many "selves": our conscious self, our sub-conscious self, our higher/spiritual self, etc. We don't just tell these selves that we have decided to start having OBEs; instead we make the request, ask permission, give permission...an internal, silent discussion then begins and how long this takes will vary from person to person.

In your case Phalanx, I would suggest including one or two simple affirmations to be used daily for a couple weeks. Write them down and repeat them 3 times every night or at different times of the day.

Something like-

"I ask permission of my inner/higher self to have conscious out of body experiences."

"I recognize when I am dreaming and become fully conscious within my dreams."

Quite often our learning in the Non-Physical requires these little half-steps to get to our destination.

You are doing fine. The fun should begin soon.

[Lumaza]

By using the methods you described you have re-programmed your inner computer and that software re-write is showing up in your dreams by dreaming about becoming lucid.

What a fantastic analogy of this entire process as a whole!  

[Xanth]

because my end goal is the true sense of AP

"true sense"... what is the "true sense" of AP to you?

Let me provide a comparison...
If I say that "walking" is akin to "lucid dreaming"... and "running" is akin to "astral projection"...
What's the actual difference between "walking" and "running"?  The answer is "speed", which is akin to your "awareness".
So, you see the only difference is *you*, well, your awareness.  That is the only thing of "you" which truly exists anyway.
Does that make sense?

[Phalanx]

Thanks for everyone's contributions.
To Xanath, I probably should have phrased it differently maybe... I noted that I do think they are both projections that they are the same. The only difference would be the start of conscious awareness of the experience, lucid dreaming would be starting in the middle somewhere and AP being conscious the whole experience. What I probably should have  meant about a true sense of AP would probably be the better stated as, the higher levels or realms of the astral or higher levels of focus (using franks terms) that which the general populace thinks is an AP. Using Franks terms and I know that they came form Monroe to a degree.. Focus 21 is astral, F22 is a lucid dream with limited awareness, F23-24 or so tend to be where the dead with emotional baggage that keeps them in a loop reside and then I think its F25 or so where guides reside and the such, I might be a bit off with the Focus levels but the idea is there. My current goal getting to those higher level or realms or around F25.

To EscapeVelocity like Lumaza said, a fantastic analogy of the process.

My lingering questions or issues are about the strange barrier effect and why I cant pass it still trying to figure it out.

[EscapeVelocity]

Phalanx,

The "barrier effect" that you are encountering is a purely personal experience that YOU have to figure out. Many of the other experienced explorers here have gone through the same process, and often their individual experiences contain similar difficulties that you are going through; they will vary from person to person, in degree and duration. It is just not all entirely explainable from a single, general perspective.

Early on, our experiences all fall into readily identifiable categories...and some easy, helpful advice can be given. But at a certain point, a persons' individual experiences move to a point where advice is difficult to give, where your description is SO important that an experienced member might say, "yes, I experienced that, and this is what worked for me right here..."

I understand your usage of the Monroe Focus level terminology, and as much as I would agree, I also disagree on a couple points...It doesn't matter.

In a simplified form, you are looking to realize your experiences within the Collective Astral Consciousness...and I am going to tell you that you may not be quite ready for that; I am still not there completely myself, although I have had a few bites at the apple...I still can't guarantee when I get there and when I don't...this is a tough realization.

The area that you ARE still dealing with is the Personal Astral, or your particular dream dimension, your personal dream space. This is still a fully functional, very valid place for your development; as a matter of fact, you can't avoid it. This is where Lelands' ideas of "simulations" begin, and I CAN testify to that. Until you advance here, you won't go anywhere else, IMO...

 The Monroe Focus levels are great and maybe within the context of going to the  TMI Lab and being within that group energy they can get you to these various levels consistently; but the truth is that very few people actually experience the whole range of possibilities. It's not to say that a trip to TMI isn't valuable; it's just that you may not get all that you expect the first time around, and that is a big understanding that needs to take place.

What I offered in my first answer to you is still valid; you might add something about asking for guidance or moving into the higher levels...it never hurts to ask...so long as you do it with respect for who you are talking to...

[Phalanx]

Phalanx,

The "barrier effect" that you are encountering is a purely personal experience that YOU have to figure out. Many of the other experienced explorers here have gone through the same process, and often their individual experiences contain similar difficulties that you are going through; they will vary from person to person, in degree and duration. It is just not all entirely explainable from a single, general perspective.

I do understand the barrier is personal experience and to that degree people may have similar experiences and that is why I tossed it out there for someone that has had a similar experience. They usually provide some insight or bit of information to see the situation from a different perspective and understanding or something which can be enough at times to help get through it.

I understand your usage of the Monroe Focus level terminology, and as much as I would agree, I also disagree on a couple points...It doesn't matter.

I use Monroe's Focus levels as a vague map of the astral, even though to me some of it does not quite string well, feels off... I know what is really there can be set up entirely different but as I have not experienced any of it I use it as a terminology that other people know of and use as to help pass on ideas to get thoughts across.

In a simplified form, you are looking to realize your experiences within the Collective Astral Consciousness...and I am going to tell you that you may not be quite ready for that; I am still not there completely myself, although I have had a few bites at the apple...I still can't guarantee when I get there and when I don't...this is a tough realization.

"looking to realize your experiences within the Collective Astral Consciousness" I am not quite sure what you mean by this please elaborate.
If I were to say it, in a simplified form I am looking to get a hold of a guide in a stable environment.
Using Monroes terms above this guide zone area would be the area where you begin to get into the collective oneness and I am not aiming there that may be a course for far later experiences and growth  and such but not now.

The area that you ARE still dealing with is the Personal Astral, or your particular dream dimension, your personal dream space. This is still a fully functional, very valid place for your development; as a matter of fact, you can't avoid it. This is where Lelands' ideas of "simulations" begin, and I CAN testify to that. Until you advance here, you won't go anywhere else, IMO...

1. This would be Kurt Leland? If so I would have to read up on some of his work, and what works of his would you suggest?

2. If this place could be more stable for development and less with the "games" imo then I would enjoy the idea even frank describes the area as a training zone somewhat and yes I have had experiences where I would believe in both ideas. But lately experiences have been more "games" than anything so it feels nothing more than a deep waste of time.

What I offered in my first answer to you is still valid; you might add something about asking for guidance or moving into the higher levels...it never hurts to ask...so long as you do it with respect for who you are talking to...

I do my own version of the becoming conscious while dreaming one that you noted before and it's getting there.
It is getting to that feeling that no one is answering the requests for help, which usually when I get to that stage I take a break for about a week cool down then try again. But my patience is starting to over all wear thin in the requests for help... I have been trying to keep an open mind in both daily life and in dreams keeping an eye out for signs and the such for any help or contact but it hasn't come yet.

[EscapeVelocity]

#1 The barrier effect - There is likely no single bit of information or insight that someone else can (or should) provide that will allow you to move beyond this point...this is an insight that is uniquely significant to you and for you alone to realize ...otherwise it will not have the proper importance or value to you. We can give some hints, some indicator of the direction to take, but beyond that we know to stay silent.

#2 Monroe's map of the Astral...I think your outlook on this is correct...take it as a "provisional belief", one that is good for current exploration but also open to re-definition as our knowledge increases...

Physical Reality....leads to Personal Astral Reality (Personal Dream Zone)...leads to/blends with the Collective Astral Reality/Afterlife Zone...which leads to the lower and upper Mental Planes...and so on, if you follow the Theosophical line of thought...(I don't pretend to know except that my own experience seems to have led at least into the lower Mental Planes)

The personal Astral is your own individual dreaming area: you have your personal learning experiences here, but you are segregated in that your uncontrollable emotions are kept away from the "collective areas" until you learn proper control.

This is just ONE of many ways to label our experiences here...choose your own labeling system as you move along. This is the way I see it at the present time, a provisional belief, and as my information changes, my categorization may change as well...

As for where you may find your "guides"...I guess that depends on a few things...I have looked for and called for mine, but I have had no response. It has been suggested to me by someone who I admit knows MUCH more than I know, that guidance may not be necessary at my level, that "they" prefer to observe how well I perform on my own, as it were. I did have one experience where I was obviously attended by another entity into and through an exciting experience (Fieldtrip) and another time when someone accompanied me during a visit to my recently deceased father. Other than that, I have been on my own or they have remained in the background.

As such, I'm not sure there is a "guide zone" to speak of. Some people can simply call out for them...that hasn't worked for me. The concept of "Intent" is very important nonetheless, and this can make all the difference at the right time.

Personally, I am thinking that guidance can come at any time, wherever you are... but they leave you on your own until you absolutely need them. In a sense, it is a perfect teaching system, brutal but fair and  astonishingly effective.

As Szaxx told me once and "they" told me once...you are never given a task that is beyond your abilities. It may push you right to your personal breaking point, but it won't be any more beyond what you are capable of.

#3 You are at a point I was a few years ago...I wondered if any guides were listening, did they care?

They DO care, they are watching for how you respond, the quality of your response. "They" may consist of otherworldly guides; they may also be one or more aspects of your Higher Self(s)...

Just know that this is an especially lonely time that many of us are going through, those of us searching for a higher, deeper truth. Keep the faith.

You are being watched and assisted and strengthened...that much even I have become aware of...

#4 Yes Kurt Leland  -If I could recommend one book, it is The MultiDimensional Human.

[Phalanx]

Thank you for the continued information.

[EscapeVelocity]

Sure.

[Szaxx]

It may prove important to not disregard the 'games' as games. These involve an assessment of your psyche and what follows is a subtle push in a direction for you to simply realise something.
A common one is floundering around in the dark in what seems a clear experience. Until you realise you have the ability to light up everything with a thought, the lesson won't be learned and a stalemate situation develops. This can then discourage you to proceed until it becomes a strong desire to do so. At this point you'll feel very disheartened and regard the whole art as folly. You give up and do nothing then all of a sudden from nowhere, you have an eye opening experience that you won't get over for years. The contents repeat as help in future adventures even decades later.
The main issue is removing doubt of your abilities. To know you have them is unhelpful. To not know is far worse. A certain amount of trust in yourself is required and as always this has to be earned. Your mindset will be locked into the physical world physics of how things work, in the NP it's very different and simple thoughts of not being able to do something will be s brick wall of great height.
You're doing fine although you may not realise it. Play the games with intent on winning every dituation presented. I learned failure is not an option, keep this in mind and kick butt.
After all, it's your experience and you are the one driving, this is hidden until the realisation hits you.
A classic physical example is riding a bike.