Differences

[jub jub]

Hey Selski,

The numbers I chose were arbitrary, to use them as an example. I do strongly believe though in the different layers being tied to specific frequencies which pretty much makes the number of layers infinite.

Anyway, as dad used to say, time will tell. 

[CFTraveler]

I posted this in the midst of another thread a few days ago, but got no response, so thought I'd start a thread.

I keep reading from various members about the difference between the astral and lucid dreaming.  The trouble comes about saying the astral is 'other dimensions' whereas lucid dreaming is 'in your head' as it is not really helpful when trying to assimilate one from the other.  So here is a challenge to all who think you know the difference...

You see, I've long stopped labelling my experiences, as they often overlap and mingle into one another.

Hi Selski.  The reason I'm replying to this thread is that I've changed my mind about not so much how I see my experiences but as to how I label them.

What I'd really like to know is how do you tell the difference between astral travel and lucid dreams?

I think all of these experiences are acts of tuning your perceptions to different levels of reality, and by this I don't mean physical or energetic levels, but subjective levels.  From the outward (waking) to the "astral" (which includes all manner of dreams and all manner of what we call AP or OBE).

How do you know you are in a "different dimension".  How do you know you are in your own subconscious? 

First and right off the bat, when I say 'dimension' I am not talking about physical time/space dimension, I'm talking what Kurt Leland and to some extent theosophical writers described as 'psychological dimensions', which would be the 'distance' from understandable waking reality' as opposed to physical distance or levels.  I think all of it is perceived by my subconscious, so I would categorize the experience as an AP or dream depending on how I perceive it.  If I wake up to it I'm dreaming, if I have an exit it's an OBE, and if I 'merge' into a scene it's phasing.  The degree of symbolism as it pertains to my waking life determines my opinion as to it's subjectivity.  Was that confusing?
 

What are the obvious differences between the two, so that you are able to tell one from another?

I think I already answered that, but I'll give an example.
The other day I had an OBE.  I got out of my body the usual way, then flew up and had a completely abstract experience.  This experience was noted by someone versed in the symbology of the planes and was identified as one.  I accepted this as an OBE to the RTZ with phase-shift to a specific plane (can't remember which.) I'm happy with that description, especially because my description of the environment matched with something previously documented and foreign to my cultural upbringing.
Last week I had a symbolic dream that had symbolism I recognized.  When I studied the symbolism, I realized I was working out some problems that were happening in my life.  This to me was a nonlucid dream that turned lucid at the end.  But due to it's subjectivity, I consider it a good old-fashioned dream.

When I have an RTZ OBE and walk through the nearest wall, the environment often drastically changes from that which I was expecting.  Have I walked into the astral or a lucid dream? 

The way I work it out, is that if it's an OBE you had an AP that turned into a dream, if the environment has something to do with your life, even if the symbolism is not apparent at first.  But if it's archetypal, I'd consider it an OBE that phase-shifted into an AP.
Confused yet? 

I'm a big fan of phasing, however I cannot separate it from a WILD.  Therefore I phase into (what I would term) a Lucid Dream.  And yet, the phasing pioneers used the word astral or other dimensions. 

Like I said before, it's all the same to me- but how subjective it is depends on how it's related to your life.  Once again, if it's archetypal, then I look for 'astral plane' explanation.

I'm really curious about all this because for each of my experiences, I've felt ultra-lucid, colours have been exquisite, I've had normal conversations with beings that appeared to be not of my creation....and so on.  I am not able to distinguish an 'astral' experience from a lucid dream.  The only one I can put to one side and label separately is an RTZ OBE - because for me this involves a feeling of separation from the physical and I end up in a near-replica of the room my physical body is in.

I always enjoy reading your experiences, and if they are all subjective, you have a great mind.

I'm curious to hear your views.  I'm not looking for how many planes there are, or levels.

I want to know in basic and simple language how you tell the difference between them when you are there.

There.  Couldn't be simpler, could it? 

I'm looking forward to hearing from you!

Sarah

Basic and simple from me?  I don't think so.... 

[Novice]

Hey Sarah!

I'm with you on the whole label thing. I also completely agree that there's a distinct difference between an OBE and LD/phasing experience -- for the exact reasons you describe. With a traditional OBE, I perceive a seperation from the physical body. The surroundings closely resemble my home. I rarely perceive colors though. To me, everything is pale and semi-transparent. There are some colors, but they appear muted and dull - like faded/washed out water colors.

Now, lucid dreams and phasing -- still struggle with this myself. I don't notice colors when non-lucid and dreaming. But I do when lucid and when phasing. So is it a function of my awareness that makes the colors brighter? Don't know. I have often visited my friend while I was phasing and she was dreaming. Upon waking our perceptions of the surroundings are always consistent -- so it's a verifiable link. With that said, does that imply that I phase into her dream? Or does she (and everyone else) dream on a level/frequency/plane/whatever where phasing occurs? In other words, do dreams and phasing experience occur in the same mental area/frequency/plane? That would explain the difficulties in distinguishing a finite line between the two experiences.

One poster said that our dreams are made up by our minds or we dream in our minds, or something like. I think everything is about mind/consciousness. So in that scenario, yes dreams occur in our mind. But I think everyone's minds are somehow linked/open/available to each other. Thus, if you want to visit someone, you simply think of them. This is how I 'call' my guide when I want her. I think of her or sometimes I simply say her name. When I want to visit my friend, I simply think of her and I'm taken right to her. Everytime I experience these, however, I do not perceive them as different from dreams. Some of them are, depending upon where my guide takes me or where I end up if I focus on the wrong thing. But the point is whether I'm dreaming, visiting another's dream or phasing, I use the same techniques and, for the most part, perceive the surroundings as dream-like -- although I don't like that phrase because it sounds 'not real.'

I do agree that a non-lucid dream is not an OBE or phasing experience. I say this because I do put a lot of emphasis on consciousness. I think if a person isn't aware, their mind tends to 'run-away' with things -- I'm sure I'm not the only one who can attest to that! To me it all boils down to awareness with dreams and phasing.

As for OBEs, it isn't uncommon for me to start with a traditional OBE, walk through my wall to the back yard and then phase somewhere else. That happens quite a bit. So I can start with one experience and choose to make it another.

I suppose, the VERY long answer to your question Sarah, is that I only perceive 3 distinct experiences thus far:

OBE -- classic seperation/muted, semi-transparent surroundings;
lucid dream/phasing -- no perception of seperation/bright colors/conscious decisions and movements
F4 (white light area) -- no colors what-so-ever here/no bodies/integrated minds

I don't know how to label them or what to call them, but I do perceive them as distinctly different from one another. Does that help, or confuse the issue even further! 

[Stookie]

Wow, while we all agree on certain aspects, we all seem to have very different perceptions of consciousness and what it is. Maybe it's not in explanations, but in personal perspective. 2 people can have very different perception in the exact same "area" of consciousness. "What I can see with my eyes must be real" doesn't apply in this situation.

[Selski]

Thank you to everyone who has replied - it's great to hear your views! 

Sarah