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October 13, 2008, 15:51:52


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Author Topic: How to explain OBE to a slightly skeptic friend  (Read 454 times)
Venus_Goddess_of_Love
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« on: July 26, 2008, 17:15:25 »

Hi all

I have a friend who is interested in OBEs - he has an open mind but the other day he asked me "how do you know you weren't dreaming?".  I couldn't say much at the time because we were having lunch in a crowded place; but I would like to explain it to him properly at some point.

If you were me, how would you explain it to him?

All ideas welcome!

Venus  grin
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Old Dood
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« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2008, 19:22:59 »

Return everything with a question back to him...

Like: "Tell me what a DREAM is...?" And so forth...
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Venus_Goddess_of_Love
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« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2008, 20:39:19 »

thanks old dood.

anyone else?
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Colden
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« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2008, 20:54:10 »

Buy him a book. Astral Dynamics by Robert Bruce would be a good one it's almost like an encyclopedia for AP.
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« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2008, 16:49:46 »

For someone who hasn't experienced it, he has a valid question. Even if it is just a dream, it's the most fascinating & realistic dream ever, and still worth the effort. And trying to find out exactly how real it is can be fun too.

But if he doesn't feel compelled, maybe it's not for him.
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Vitruvian
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« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2008, 05:09:08 »

Venus,
I would start by explaing a lucid dream first, and then describe an OBE.

More specifically, I would explain that when you are dreaming everything simply 'happens' and you are more observer than participant. In the case of either OBE's or lucid dreams there is intentionality; you cause things to happen moment-by-moment, exactly as you do in an 'awake' state.
 
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Synergy
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« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2008, 05:26:49 »

If he will only listen to scientific evidence, then first explain to him what autoscopy is.... which is the scientific term for the apparent experience of being outside of one's physical body.  Then tell him that neuroscientists still do not know how to explain autoscopy or the OBE or NDE.  They have theories as to causes, but not actually what happens in the brain.  You could show him evidence like Tart's experiments, and the Dutch OBE experiments which support that OBEs are not dreams or made up in the brain.  Also, there exists evidence that supports the theory that human consciousness is not created by, but simply stored in and using the physical brain... (holographic universe, and holographic brain theory) and if it is not created by the brain then it must be able to exist outside of it. 

This way you kind of introduce him to it scientifically and then open the door for him to the possibility that it is beyond what science can explain.
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tvos
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« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2008, 07:15:58 »

Venus,

I will offer my .2 on the matter since I have been at this for sometime now..Smiley

The question your friend asks "is it a dream or is it real?". These questions are asked by every single human being here on earth, no one is different and we are all in the same boat of arriving at our own validation.

I have taken a FAQ from my web-site and will include this for you to review and communicate back to your friend.

This faq will be based on a skeptical view, validation, and comparison between dream and obe.
Please consider that this is not the final word, or can even come close to the research, work, time, patience, and experience involved to theorize. One just has to educate themselves and experience the OBE in it's truest, rawest nature.

Enjoy, and hope this helps!

Tvos


What are your thoughts about skeptics and their views?

I totally respect the views of skeptics—trying to prove that the out-of-body experience is false memories, hallucinatory, and generated in the brain. It’s always good to be objective towards this field of study. However, we should keep an open mind and not be quick to judge either.

What motivates a person to be passionate about ones work, research, study, and helping the community through spirituality, shouldn’t be judged. The skeptic is all about judgment, negativity, and proving the person’s ability false when it’s based on personal experience.  I do agree that, if there is a false spiritualist who is taking advantage of people and their hard earned money, that individual should be exposed as fraud.  But one should not capitalize on one moment where the spiritualist was inaccurate with information or personal experience.

This is an area that is based on personal experience for each and every one of us. I, personally, can document, narrate and validate all of my experiences and ‘preach to the choir’, but it comes down to the one person: you—actually taking the initiative to experience the OBE.  If the medical or scientific community can’t explain the out-of-body or near- death experience, but can only ‘attempt’ to theorize, how can the skeptic even begin?  Here are a few examples of the NDE/OBE to seriously think about:

Example 1: How do you explain the near-death experience of Pam Reynolds?  During an operation to remove a tumor, she was able to accurately describe external events while she was in an out-of-body state. During her operation, Pam had no brain wave activity or other vital signs for over an hour.

Example 2: How do you explain a woman, who has been blind since birth, who has a near-death experience and is able to see?  Not only is she able to view her body, she can see shapes, size, color, light, darkness, faces, and is also able to give accurate testimony that provides validation.

You can view the PDF files of Pam Reynolds and Vicky Noratuk in the APFaqs folder.

The skeptics do not have the multitude of OBEs, validations, static consistency of coincidence or synchronicities, and precognitive experiences. I’ve firsthand experience and taken the time to educate myself about faith, spirituality and world religions. How can you claim that this is all generated in the brain when you have never had a full wide awaked induced out-of-body or near-death experience?

Statistically speaking, the majority of religious and spiritual belief systems throughout the world are based on the faith and conviction that there is a spiritual rebirth after physical death. If the majority of the world believes in a divine creator—by whatever name one may call it—what credibility does the skeptic have in this? Why would I want to listen to a skeptic speaking in negative denials when I can be open, enhance my life, learn to love others and help the global community?


Does the OBE prove that there is life after death?
Personally, I’d say yes! For the person who has taken the time, gone through the process to validate, has had field experience, and has faith in God, there is no question. It’s plain and simple; go the distance and do the work!

How can you tell an OBE from a lucid dream?
One can tell by the level of awareness, the mechanics of the exit during the projection, validation, precognitive experience, etc.  The OBE state reality is static and not dynamic.  There’s a sparkle, magical, beauty to the astral world during the OBE.  The memory is clear as to specific details—being able to recall the beginning, middle and end points of the experience that last for years. This also provides a clear distinction between an OBE and hallucinations, which fade quickly over time and which are not clear and coherent as an OBE is.
   
Being witness to seeing your physical body, while in the OBE state, is a good sign. Another key factor is the amount of time to enter the trance state and have the OBE.  On record, I’ve been able to enter the trance state within 15-30 minutes and then project.  In REM sleep, dreaming begins in sleep cycle 4 and 5—about 1.5 hours after the body has been asleep.

In a few OBEs, I noticed that at the time I was completely alert, conscious, and aware. I started to *daydream* which caught flight and when I momentarily snapped out of that daydream, I still found myself in the same environment,time,space etc. So I tested indepth daydreaming during the OBE and found it just like physical day dream. One moment you can be in a conversation with a friend via phone, and a few seconds later day dreaming of a vacation in the cayman islands but still in the conversation. The principle still remains on the other-side while in the OBE.




« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 07:21:21 by tvos » Logged

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Venus_Goddess_of_Love
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« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2008, 00:42:01 »

Thank you so much everyone!  There's always great energy and teamwork in this place - I can always count on you!

 grin
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The Present Moment
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« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2008, 06:20:24 »

I would explain that the IBE is created by the senses, and that the OBE is every bit as natural as far as consciousness is concerned.
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tvos
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« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2008, 06:41:33 »

I would explain that the IBE is created by the senses, and that the OBE is every bit as natural as far as consciousness is concerned.

I think you meant "OBE" instead of "IBE" correct?

Anyways, as I stated in my post - the OBE / NDE go farther then just "senses" that are created by our bodies. This is the one thing that when people who guess, offer their oppinnions based on text book theories, the wrong conclusions are drawn. There is so much that science, medicine do not understand, even where consciousness begins or ends. Not saying that having the OBE weekly on a consistent yearly basis can touch explanation either.. there is something greater behind the curtain and the wizard is called "God" but interepreted differently by culture/race/faith.

To really understand the OBE, I strongly suggust one hook themshelves up to a microscope, video camera, ekg machine and see how the equiptment doesn't measure this. I have done everything except the ekg machine and noticed no difference in physical / audio changes in heart rate or breathing.

tvos
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jub jub
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« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2008, 17:09:26 »

When dreaming, there is Rapid Eye Movement (REM). In scientific studies of OBE, there is no recorded REM because the mind is awake and it's the body that is asleep.
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tvos
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« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2008, 20:58:30 »

When dreaming, there is Rapid Eye Movement (REM). In scientific studies of OBE, there is no recorded REM because the mind is awake and it's the body that is asleep.


Jub Jub,

Been awhile...Sad Hope all is well these days with family, friends and OBEs!

Where did you see this study/research about monitoring the OBE and it not being recorded.

Please advise.

Tvos
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jub jub
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« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2008, 22:12:03 »

Hi David, good to see you're still posting!

Here's a quote from an article, second para.

Quote
From Monday to Wednesday, the projector reported having seen the clock while floating out of body. At the times informed by her, the devices demonstrated unusual brain-wave patterns. An absence of rapid-eye movements (REM) was also observed. On Wednesday night, Miss Z identified the target number: 25132. The brain-wave pattern during conscious projection was different from the patterns during waking state, sleep and other altered states of consciousness (an expression proposed by Tart himself).


Here's the URL.

http://cref.tripod.com/article_oberesearch.htm

I believe there are several other research articles that came to the same conclusion. Google "REM OBE Research"

« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 22:14:04 by jub jub » Logged
The Present Moment
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« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2008, 06:15:54 »

Quote
Quote from: The Present Moment on August 07, 2008, 02:20:24
I would explain that the IBE is created by the senses, and that the OBE is every bit as natural as far as consciousness is concerned.
I think you meant "OBE" instead of "IBE" correct?

"IBE" (the in-body-experience) is created by the 5 senses. There is no reason for us to experience being in or out of the body except that one set of information (the 5 senses) is better at holding our attention. That is how I 'validate' OBEs to skeptics - consciousness isn't in or out to begin with.
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