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Author Topic: Differences  (Read 4604 times)
Selski
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« on: February 16, 2008, 09:45:26 »

I posted this in the midst of another thread a few days ago, but got no response, so thought I'd start a thread.

I keep reading from various members about the difference between the astral and lucid dreaming.  The trouble comes about saying the astral is 'other dimensions' whereas lucid dreaming is 'in your head' as it is not really helpful when trying to assimilate one from the other.  So here is a challenge to all who think you know the difference...

You see, I've long stopped labelling my experiences, as they often overlap and mingle into one another.

What I'd really like to know is how do you tell the difference between astral travel and lucid dreams?  How do you know you are in a "different dimension".  How do you know you are in your own subconscious?  What are the obvious differences between the two, so that you are able to tell one from another?

When I have an RTZ OBE and walk through the nearest wall, the environment often drastically changes from that which I was expecting.  Have I walked into the astral or a lucid dream? 

I'm a big fan of phasing, however I cannot separate it from a WILD.  Therefore I phase into (what I would term) a Lucid Dream.  And yet, the phasing pioneers used the word astral or other dimensions. 

I'm really curious about all this because for each of my experiences, I've felt ultra-lucid, colours have been exquisite, I've had normal conversations with beings that appeared to be not of my creation....and so on.  I am not able to distinguish an 'astral' experience from a lucid dream.  The only one I can put to one side and label separately is an RTZ OBE - because for me this involves a feeling of separation from the physical and I end up in a near-replica of the room my physical body is in.

I'm curious to hear your views.  I'm not looking for how many planes there are, or levels.

I want to know in basic and simple language how you tell the difference between them when you are there.

There.  Couldn't be simpler, could it? 

I'm looking forward to hearing from you!

Sarah
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zipppy2006
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« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2008, 16:51:53 »

From reading some books by Carlos Castenada, mainly "The Art of Dreaming," he talks about the concept of energy.  Everything consists of energy, blah blah you've heard this before.  So the ability to perceive energy directly is something that is sought after.  Although this is hard in the physical world, in dreams or in a projection it is said to be easier.  Carlos says to intend, or will yourself to see energy, by way of simply intending, shouting that you want to see the energy, or pointing your little finger at objects (all in dreams/AP of course).  He says that when you SEE a normal dream object created from your own consciousness, it is "ghost energy" so to say, and will disappear or change into something else, whereas true objective energy (not of your own making) should sustain and emit a glow of some kind.  Although dreams may contain an item or two that is 'real,' most of the items are said to be ghost energy in dreams, whereas in AP I would think that most everything would be sustainable energy.

It's been awhile since I read the book, and I assume some things from it.  For example he never talks about Astral Projection, rather "Dreaming in the waking world."  So some assumptions are made here.
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« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2008, 16:51:53 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2008, 20:08:38 »

An out of body experience is when a person is fully aware of their consciousness being separate and apart from their physical body. Of course there are different types of OBEs. There are ethereal/etheric/RTZ projections. There are astral projections. There are projections to alternate/parallel universes. There are projections to higher dimensions and/or higher planes. All of the above are OBEs yet IMO all involve a clear conscious separation of the astral/ethereal body-consciousness from the physical body.

Lucid dreams are experiences where the dreamer MAY be out of body yet is still only aware of the dreamscape. Of course this leaves open the possibility that much of the dreamscape in a lucid dream is Not created by the dreamer and therefore does have an outside objective existence. Whether or nor this is the case in a lucid dream the dreamer has not quite made the (quantum?) jump up in consciousness and therefore is not fully aware of it- meaning that the dreamer still perceives the experience as occuring in only a dreamscape.

And yes there is a HUGE area of overlap and it can all get quite confusing.

This happens to me ALL the time and at times nobody is more confused by the overlapping Grey area of consciousness than I.

Somewhat confused  huh

Or maybe not wink

Grey
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« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2008, 20:43:57 »

So in very simple terms, one answer would be: if these labelled experiences overlap so much as they seem to be doing, and you often cannot tell them apart, then there's no real solid difference between them. Now is there? 

It is all just human labels and degrees of experience.

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« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2008, 04:17:57 »

interception

your quote
Quote
So in very simple terms, one answer would be: if these labelled experiences overlap so much as they seem to be doing, and you often cannot tell them apart, then there's no real solid difference between them. Now is there? 

It is all just human labels and degrees of experience.

I would agree with you somewhat. The term "degrees of experience" is very appropriate. Two other  terms that could also apply are 'degrees of consciousness' and 'degrees of perception'. You are right in stating that many of the differences in such experiences are only labels that we conveniently use in the language of waking life .

Grey
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« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2008, 04:17:57 »



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Selski
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« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2008, 09:58:09 »

From reading some books by Carlos Castenada, mainly "The Art of Dreaming,"

Hi Zipppy

I read that book a while ago.  The trouble is you'd have to be pointing your finger at everything you came across.

I was looking for others' direct experience, rather than what they have read in a book. 

But thank you for responding.  smiley

Sarah
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Selski
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« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2008, 10:14:52 »

Hi Greytraveller  smiley

Quote from: Greytraveller
An out of body experience is when a person is fully aware of their consciousness being separate and apart from their physical body.

I disagree with this.  An out of body experience is just that.  An experience of being out of your body.  Where did you get this explanation from?  Specifically about having to be fully aware?

Non-lucid dreams are OBEs by their very nature.  The fact that we don't realise at the time is neither here nor there, in my opinion.

Quote from: Greytraveller
Of course there are different types of OBEs. There are ethereal/etheric/RTZ projections. There are astral projections. There are projections to alternate/parallel universes. There are projections to higher dimensions and/or higher planes.

This is what I'm getting at.  I don't want you to tell me that there are x-amount of types of projections - I hear it all the time.  I want you to tell me how you know the difference between them, when you are there.

What is the difference between projecting to an alternate universe and a higher dimension/plane?  What is the difference between an astral projection and a projection to a parallel universe?  When you have an experience, what do you deem it to be...and more importantly what tell-tale signs of the experience led you to that label?

Quote from: Greytraveller
All of the above are OBEs yet IMO all involve a clear conscious separation of the astral/ethereal body-consciousness from the physical body.

What's your take on Phasing where there is no separation from the physical?  When your mind seems to shift consciousness seamlessly and easily from the physical to 'somewhere else'?  Rather like moving the switch on a radio to change frequencies.  No separation.  No struggling out of the physical, no creating a second body.

Quote from: Greytraveller
Lucid dreams are experiences where the dreamer MAY be out of body yet is still only aware of the dreamscape. Of course this leaves open the possibility that much of the dreamscape in a lucid dream is Not created by the dreamer and therefore does have an outside objective existence. Whether or nor this is the case in a lucid dream the dreamer has not quite made the (quantum?) jump up in consciousness and therefore is not fully aware of it- meaning that the dreamer still perceives the experience as occuring in only a dreamscape.

Yikes that's confusing.  So the dreamscape might be self-created or not? 

How do you know that astral projection generally isn't self-created?  As in parallel universes, higher planes etc.?

Quote from: Greytraveller
And yes there is a HUGE area of overlap and it can all get quite confusing.

Quite.  grin

Quote from: Greytraveller
This happens to me ALL the time and at times nobody is more confused by the overlapping Grey area of consciousness than I.

I think you'll find there are a few that are as confused as you!!  cheesy

Thank you for responding.

Sarah
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Selski
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« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2008, 10:58:25 »

Hi interception

Quote from: interception
So in very simple terms, one answer would be: if these labelled experiences overlap so much as they seem to be doing, and you often cannot tell them apart, then there's no real solid difference between them. Now is there? 

It is all just human labels and degrees of experience.

This is the conclusion I am coming to.  I've had 4 years worth of experiences and find that I am so far away from all the books/discussions/theories/beliefs that are abound. 

I do understand that if a book is going to be published, it will need to have descriptions and adventure and whatnot, and so to some extent the author will have to use some sort of structure to the experiences.  However, they don't seem to let you know about the overlapping, or give you signposts as to where you are exactly.  It's all very wishy-washy and of course, readers come along and think it's great and have an experience which they reckon might be a 'higher plane' experience because they heard singing (and so assumed they were angels), and lo and behold these structures are solidified by more and more people.

And yet, I've done the opposite.  I've looked at my experiences as they are, no fluff, no assumptions, no negatives, no positives, just as they are.

Sadly, my conclusion is that most authors and others take on beliefs and assumptions galore, and we find ourselves embroiled in mystical terminology that is quite frankly misleading and confusing.  I also think many authors, whilst not lying as such, are economical with the truth when describing their experiences.  I believe they miss out parts that don't make sense, or don't fit with the general 'flow' of the experience.

I guess if I wrote a book about my experiences, no-one would publish it.  It would simply be full of experiences with no meanings, no "this means that and therefore the other".  No structure, no labels.

I wonder whether I will take these labels on board in the future.  I can't see it somehow.

Sarah
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« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2008, 21:28:33 »

Yes, structure is important in learning, for sure. These levels/labels or whatever can be great for learning and for discussing ones experiences, as I will be doing myself right now. But are they real in anything but a subjective sense? I doubt it.

I'm afraid that these labels can also easily become a sort of limiting framework for a belief system of sorts that will inevitably become a crutch. Especially the bad kind of crutch where a person would ask something like: "Should I eat meat before I try to project? Should I keep my head pointing to the north or the south if I want a lucid dream?"

Also, often peeps will use these levels to impose superiority. Pathetic really. They would say, "I have had a full blown conscious projection and I met this weird old man with creepy eyes and wings on his back."  While the next person "only" had a mere lucid dream experience for 10 seconds where he flew around his back garden. Sure, it might take more practice to do a conscious projection for an extended period, but the experiences themselves I don't think are all that different.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 21:31:10 by interception » Logged
Selski
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« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2008, 08:18:01 »

Thanks interception.

Looks like we are reading from the same hymn sheet!  smiley

Sarah
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« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2008, 14:24:20 »

Hi Sarah!

A topic of such high subjectivity...I likey!  grin Since it's so subjective, any idea is as good as the next so here is my take.

In my limited exposure to OBEs, I have experienced basically three types, the RTZ, False Awakening, and for lack of a better term, the LD or Astral projection. I like to break these down by frequency.

My dealing with electronics and RF has allowed me a perception of how I think this all comes together. Let's say that waking consciousness is based on 100 Hz. If this were the case then, an FA would fall at a lower frequency of 75 Hz. A RTZ OBE would fall at a slightly higher frequency of 125 Hz and the astral realm even higher still at 200 Hz and above. The higher in frequency our consciousness goes, the brighter the colors, with the highest being pure white light, void of any color.

Now you are probably asking yourself, what the Hell is he talking about? Good question. To tell the truth, this is all based on my understanding of the way the universe and our brains work. Everything has a resonant frequency and they all differ. Our consciousness has a frequency of awareness and when we experience an OBE, our consciousness is actually shifting frequency to a higher or lower level.

I believe the FA to be lower in frequency, which would explain the negative entities we so often perceive on this plain. Negativity is of the lowest in frequency and dwells in these lower realms. The RTZ is the closest to our normal awake frequency and thus explains the close relationship to our actual surroundings. Minor fluctuations in frequency explain the disparities between actual and perceived surroundings. After all, we do not perceive with our physical senses, but with our consciousness, picking up the frequency of different objects. The Astral, or LDs are even higher yet and closely resemble physical reality but take on a brighter hue because they are higher in frequency. I've never been to Frank’s F4, although I believe that this realm is getting close to the source, or the "Master Clock" if you will. As high as you can go in frequency!

I know a lot of people will read this and think that I'm crazy, and that's OK. It's what I believe and I think that's what you were looking for.

Peace.  smiley
« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 14:43:16 by jub jub » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2008, 05:46:00 »

Selski
There is no way that I can credit another person with having an out of body experience if that person is not fully aware of having the experience. Even If the person DID have an OBE but was only aware of the OBE as being a dream then the best that I can do is state that the person May have had an OBE. If a person is unsure of this then I too cannot be certain either.
So I see no point in stating that a lucid dream or a normal, non-lucid dream is an OBE when the person who has the dream or LD cannot be sure themselves.
To me debating the issue is purely academic and a waste of time.

Consider all the MANY posts on this website (and other websites) where the poster asks "Was this an OBE or a Dream?" Those posts almost always include a description of the experience followed at the end by the question asking "So what do you think? Was this an OBE or was it a dream?"
My point here, of course, is that if the person who had the expereince is unsure then there is NO WAY that another person can be absolutely sure either.
I pointedly disagree that all non-lucid dreams are OBEs. I have yet to hear a good reasoning to believe that. Some dreams may be OBEs. Yet how can anyone tell?

You ask
Quote
What is the difference between projecting to an alternate universe and a higher dimension/plane?  What is the difference between an astral projection and a projection to a parallel universe?  When you have an experience, what do you deem it to be...and more importantly what tell-tale signs of the experience led you to that label?

Okay, trying hard Not to be dogmatic here I will firmly claim that the out of body state is when a person's consciousness leaves their physical body. Sometimes their consciousness remains at the location where their physical body rests. On other occasions the discarnate consciousness leaves the location where the body rests and travels elsewhere. One way to label an OBE is by the location traveled to and visited by the discarnate consciousness. So there Is a meaningful difference between an OBE where the person remained in his/her bedroom and an OBE where the person travelled to another physical location on Earth (example Paris) and an OBE where a person travelled to an alternate/parallel universe and an OBE where a person travelled to another non-physical location like a Belief Sysytem Territory or Shamballah. In each of the different OBEs the person went to a different location so each 'label' has a significant meaning.

Your question
Quote
How do you know that astral projection generally isn't self-created?  As in parallel universes, higher planes etc.?

We can discuss and debate what is real, or what is reality, or what is objective and what is subjective. The long and short of that debate centers on how each individual views the world, what is real and what is objective. Suffice it to say that I view each individual as having an objective existence. After that I leave it up to each individual to decide for themselves what is real and what is objective. So I see no point in trying to answer your question. I am not dodging or evading the question, I do not see that the question can be answered in any meaningful way.

As regards phasing I have no personal experience with it and am undecided if it is a form of OBE, clairvoyance or remote viewing.

Regards
Grey
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« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2008, 12:47:13 »

   hi selski

        I've also noticed that their is little difference between OBE/LD/ASTRAL/PHASING. i have basically stopped trying to label things. In my opinion all of these experiences are more a area of consciousness/concentration then anything else. i stopped questioning the experience and now just enjoy the time "out".  I find that RTZ is different then any of the other types of OBE and astral projection, LD and phasing are very similar. Usually when i record a experience in my dream journal i would label it. I'm trying now to focus more on sensations and getting down every detail in my dream journal, instead of giving it a name like "RTZ".


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« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2008, 16:59:17 »

Ya know, I always take every one of my experiences as being subjective. I immediately assume it is UNTIL there is something there that tells me otherwise. Sometimes I have a lucid dream but the subject of it tells me something of importance. I assume that while I'm experiencing "F2", a helper, my higher-self, a past relative, or SOMEONE from "F3" or "F4" is communicating to me on the level I am at through subject matter and symbolism that I have the capability of understanding. At that moment, for some reason I can't perceive F3 or F4 so they have to "lower" their selves and communication to my perceptible level.

While I've had some F4 experiences and would absolutely know when that is happening, I don't know if I've ever consciously been in F3. Maybe that's Selski's problem - the difference between F2 and F3. Maybe as communication between F2 and F3 gets stronger, perception of F3 and the beings there becomes easier.
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« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2008, 18:42:34 »

Quote from: jub jub
I like to break these down by frequency.

All very well, but how do you know what frequency you are alluding to?  At the time.  For instance, you are busy doing some lower astral stuff and suddenly, an "angel" swoops down and takes you off somewhere else.  So you are in, say, 80 Hz to start with, but get an overlay of 250 Hz??  Or what?  Does the angel balance the frequency to, say 160 Hz.  Therefore you are still in the 'lower' scenario but because the angel is standing with you, you are now at 160?  No, that wouldn't make sense.

I'm digging myself a hole - maybe you can help me out!!  grin

Quote from: jub jub
The higher in frequency our consciousness goes, the brighter the colors, with the highest being pure white light, void of any color.

Now this I can relate to.  Sort of.  However, even with the bright colours, these have occurred in lucid dreams as much as astral projections.  Colours that you can't even begin to describe, because the verbs used are conflicting... the brightest green, but dull, but so vibrant and alive, but not glaring... how can someone else get an idea of what 'green' I'm talking about?  smiley  One thing of note is that I've never noticed bright colours in RTZ OBEs.  Colours, yes, but not bright.

Quote from: jub jub
I know a lot of people will read this and think that I'm crazy

Oh jub jub, I don't think you are crazy... I know you are crazy!!   wink

Quote from: jub jub
It's what I believe and I think that's what you were looking for.

It's exactly what I was looking for - thank you for responding to what I would deem a difficult subject.

Sarah
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« Reply #15 on: February 29, 2008, 21:00:38 »

Hey Selski,

The numbers I chose were arbitrary, to use them as an example. I do strongly believe though in the different layers being tied to specific frequencies which pretty much makes the number of layers infinite.

Anyway, as dad used to say, time will tell.  grin
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« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2008, 21:30:00 »

I posted this in the midst of another thread a few days ago, but got no response, so thought I'd start a thread.

I keep reading from various members about the difference between the astral and lucid dreaming.  The trouble comes about saying the astral is 'other dimensions' whereas lucid dreaming is 'in your head' as it is not really helpful when trying to assimilate one from the other.  So here is a challenge to all who think you know the difference...

You see, I've long stopped labelling my experiences, as they often overlap and mingle into one another.
Hi Selski.  The reason I'm replying to this thread is that I've changed my mind about not so much how I see my experiences but as to how I label them.

Quote
What I'd really like to know is how do you tell the difference between astral travel and lucid dreams?
I think all of these experiences are acts of tuning your perceptions to different levels of reality, and by this I don't mean physical or energetic levels, but subjective levels.  From the outward (waking) to the "astral" (which includes all manner of dreams and all manner of what we call AP or OBE).
Quote
How do you know you are in a "different dimension".  How do you know you are in your own subconscious? 
First and right off the bat, when I say 'dimension' I am not talking about physical time/space dimension, I'm talking what Kurt Leland and to some extent theosophical writers described as 'psychological dimensions', which would be the 'distance' from understandable waking reality' as opposed to physical distance or levels.  I think all of it is perceived by my subconscious, so I would categorize the experience as an AP or dream depending on how I perceive it.  If I wake up to it I'm dreaming, if I have an exit it's an OBE, and if I 'merge' into a scene it's phasing.  The degree of symbolism as it pertains to my waking life determines my opinion as to it's subjectivity.  Was that confusing?
 
Quote
What are the obvious differences between the two, so that you are able to tell one from another?
I think I already answered that, but I'll give an example.
The other day I had an OBE.  I got out of my body the usual way, then flew up and had a completely abstract experience.  This experience was noted by someone versed in the symbology of the planes and was identified as one.  I accepted this as an OBE to the RTZ with phase-shift to a specific plane (can't remember which.) I'm happy with that description, especially because my description of the environment matched with something previously documented and foreign to my cultural upbringing.
Last week I had a symbolic dream that had symbolism I recognized.  When I studied the symbolism, I realized I was working out some problems that were happening in my life.  This to me was a nonlucid dream that turned lucid at the end.  But due to it's subjectivity, I consider it a good old-fashioned dream.
Quote
When I have an RTZ OBE and walk through the nearest wall, the environment often drastically changes from that which I was expecting.  Have I walked into the astral or a lucid dream? 
The way I work it out, is that if it's an OBE you had an AP that turned into a dream, if the environment has something to do with your life, even if the symbolism is not apparent at first.  But if it's archetypal, I'd consider it an OBE that phase-shifted into an AP.
Confused yet?  cheesy
Quote
I'm a big fan of phasing, however I cannot separate it from a WILD.  Therefore I phase into (what I would term) a Lucid Dream.  And yet, the phasing pioneers used the word astral or other dimensions. 
Like I said before, it's all the same to me- but how subjective it is depends on how it's related to your life.  Once again, if it's archetypal, then I look for 'astral plane' explanation.
Quote
I'm really curious about all this because for each of my experiences, I've felt ultra-lucid, colours have been exquisite, I've had normal conversations with beings that appeared to be not of my creation....and so on.  I am not able to distinguish an 'astral' experience from a lucid dream.  The only one I can put to one side and label separately is an RTZ OBE - because for me this involves a feeling of separation from the physical and I end up in a near-replica of the room my physical body is in.
I always enjoy reading your experiences, and if they are all subjective, you have a great mind.
Quote
I'm curious to hear your views.  I'm not looking for how many planes there are, or levels.

I want to know in basic and simple language how you tell the difference between them when you are there.

There.  Couldn't be simpler, could it? 

I'm looking forward to hearing from you!

Sarah
Basic and simple from me?  I don't think so....  tongue
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« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2008, 17:52:07 »

Hey Sarah!

I'm with you on the whole label thing. I also completely agree that there's a distinct difference between an OBE and LD/phasing experience -- for the exact reasons you describe. With a traditional OBE, I perceive a seperation from the physical body. The surroundings closely resemble my home. I rarely perceive colors though. To me, everything is pale and semi-transparent. There are some colors, but they appear muted and dull - like faded/washed out water colors.

Now, lucid dreams and phasing -- still struggle with this myself. I don't notice colors when non-lucid and dreaming. But I do when lucid and when phasing. So is it a function of my awareness that makes the colors brighter? Don't know. I have often visited my friend while I was phasing and she was dreaming. Upon waking our perceptions of the surroundings are always consistent -- so it's a verifiable link. With that said, does that imply that I phase into her dream? Or does she (and everyone else) dream on a level/frequency/plane/whatever where phasing occurs? In other words, do dreams and phasing experience occur in the same mental area/frequency/plane? That would explain the difficulties in distinguishing a finite line between the two experiences.

One poster said that our dreams are made up by our minds or we dream in our minds, or something like. I think everything is about mind/consciousness. So in that scenario, yes dreams occur in our mind. But I think everyone's minds are somehow linked/open/available to each other. Thus, if you want to visit someone, you simply think of them. This is how I 'call' my guide when I want her. I think of her or sometimes I simply say her name. When I want to visit my friend, I simply think of her and I'm taken right to her. Everytime I experience these, however, I do not perceive them as different from dreams. Some of them are, depending upon where my guide takes me or where I end up if I focus on the wrong thing. But the point is whether I'm dreaming, visiting another's dream or phasing, I use the same techniques and, for the most part, perceive the surroundings as dream-like -- although I don't like that phrase because it sounds 'not real.'

I do agree that a non-lucid dream is not an OBE or phasing experience. I say this because I do put a lot of emphasis on consciousness. I think if a person isn't aware, their mind tends to 'run-away' with things -- I'm sure I'm not the only one who can attest to that! To me it all boils down to awareness with dreams and phasing.

As for OBEs, it isn't uncommon for me to start with a traditional OBE, walk through my wall to the back yard and then phase somewhere else. That happens quite a bit. So I can start with one experience and choose to make it another.

I suppose, the VERY long answer to your question Sarah, is that I only perceive 3 distinct experiences thus far:

OBE -- classic seperation/muted, semi-transparent surroundings;
lucid dream/phasing -- no perception of seperation/bright colors/conscious decisions and movements
F4 (white light area) -- no colors what-so-ever here/no bodies/integrated minds

I don't know how to label them or what to call them, but I do perceive them as distinctly different from one another. Does that help, or confuse the issue even further!  rolleyes
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« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2008, 16:36:48 »

Wow, while we all agree on certain aspects, we all seem to have very different perceptions of consciousness and what it is. Maybe it's not in explanations, but in personal perspective. 2 people can have very different perception in the exact same "area" of consciousness. "What I can see with my eyes must be real" doesn't apply in this situation.
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Selski
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« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2008, 11:31:45 »

Thank you to everyone who has replied - it's great to hear your views!  smiley

Sarah
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