fantasy or retrieval??

[catsquotl]

I have always had trouble visualizing, but sometimes i am able to come up with an impression of surroundings and events..
Just now i was in the tub trying to relax, my monkey mind was babbling as ever...

I was trying to see my place in focus 27.. I have created several places in the past. This time I couldn`t see any one of those places. my efforts felt straining so i let go... thinking about the difference between obe and viewing the astral from your body I sensed a room high up in a building. a man was walking to the window and I knew he was going to or already killed himself by jumping through.. I approached and asked if i could help.. he was a bit startled. I told him rather blunt i was in a bathtub projecting to him and that he had died already.. He said no, but i am going to and jumped..
he immediately was back in the room. So I asked what he believed would happen after death. He said there was nothing..So (I think with help) i/we let the back of the room dissolve in blackness.. He the understood and said so there is consciousness after death? I told him yes and said we could take him to a place where there were others. he saw somebody that was with me and followed us... we arrived at a gate (I think the gate at the entrance of the park.I tried to visualize it before and found myself there..could have created it as an entrance for myself not sure)..
Others approached him and the man left with them. The beeing with me suggested to go to my place and sit near the fire..Until now i always envisioned my place as very natural..cave`s, open clearing in woods near rivers and such. never a house like structure with a fireplace, But there i was siting near the fire...

So what do you think fantasy or retrieval??

With Love,
Eelco

[Timandra]

Hi Eelco. It was interesting to read about your retrieval-experience, but you probably will never know if it was fantasy or a genuine retrieval. However, I have read about a retrieval done in the same way, so not while you are out of the body, it could very well be real. Perhaps you will get more experiences like this and then you may feel more certain about it. I hope to hear more if you do. 

[SkepticBoy]

I was trying to see my place in focus 27.. I have created several places in the past. This time I couldn`t see any one of those places.

What do you mean by this pls. Creating places?

[Xanth]

What do you mean by this pls. Creating places?

There's a certain focus level which is a 'personal' place to you and only you.  However, others can visit this 'place' of yours.
In this place you can create whatever living space you want, and however large you want.  This 'place' exists even if you're not around there. It'll maintain itself.

This is what, I believe, catsquotl is talking about. 

[catsquotl]

What do you mean by this pls. Creating places?

Hi Skepticboy,

In previous guided meditations i had visualized places where i could go to learn, recharge and or rest.
Some of those places I visited regularly for periods of time during my life..
During meditation I turn my attention inward and envision a place i`d like to be. Usually somewhere in nature and then try to create some detail. Having read that focus 27 is a place where every thought becomes (sort of) form i figured it was there where these places are....

With Love,
Eelco

[SkepticBoy]

There's a certain focus level which is a 'personal' place to you and only you.  However, others can visit this 'place' of yours.
In this place you can create whatever living space you want, and however large you want.  This 'place' exists even if you're not around there. It'll maintain itself.

This is what, I believe, catsquotl is talking about. 

So others can visit somewhere which another has created in the astral? could this not be used as validation? say if you were to visit someones created astral area, without prior knowledge on anything about the persons world they've created, could someone go to it in OBE and see what is there then come back to tell the person and validate to see if its the same as they've created?

[Xanth]

Sounds about right.

[SkepticBoy]

So what if you were to create a place (making it as original and unpredictible as possible) could I OBE and come visit and validate it? would you do that so I can come see it?

[Xanth]

If I'm ever able to get there myself, sure. 

[catsquotl]

This is as save a space as any I guess to continue babbling about my experiences and assorted thoughts on the subject of retrievals, OBE's and explorations of the inner worlds.

I had planned to either phase last night during sleep, see if I still could work as easily while taking a bath with a moen C1 F3 overlay like experience and continue my working through the gateway experience a little more.

So last night I got to bed early-ish(22:20).
Even though i fel asleep easily with the intent to come to my senses during a dream or wake up to consciously start travels.
I didn't dream consciously although I had some disjointed fragments which I could piece together to form some sort of narrative.
I did wake up a few times around 3 and 4:30 but fell asleep seconds after looking at the backness behind my eyes..

So after the kids were off to school I drew a bath.
YES. I can still work as detailed and effortlessly as ever.
The only drawback from this method if you will is that the constant awareness of the whereabouts of my physical body add's to the feeling this couls all be just in my head as a fantasy. It takes an bit of convincing even to myself this is happening outside of the realms of fantasy and within the realms of imagination and energy exchange..(does that distinction make sense?)

Anyway I relaxed in bath and sort of tried to imagine some of the places I created in the past. None came to the front easily and suddenly I remembered/saw a beach as we have them in our country. so I started to walk down the beach for a whil in an effort to immerse myself in the imagery. I found that walking was futile.
It felt forced and the scenery didn't change so I took of my shoes and just stood calf deep in the water.(I could see/know it, but no tactile sensations. Still seeing/sensing the water's eb and flood flow around my feet was soothing.

after a few of these flows I turned around. still stood in the water but looked over the beach/dunes instead of the water.
Then swells/waves just engulfed me totally. waves were twice my size pounding over me. As the waves did not rock me I turned and faced the waves coming over me.

After a few moments of this I turned and started walking towards the sand dunes. In order to immerse myself more fully into the scenery and trying to miminize the awareness of my physical body I tried to do some meditative walking on the beach. I have never tried this before and was pleasantly surprised to see that the effect of it mimmicks physical walking meditation although it lacks a tactile component.

At some point the sand beneath my feet turned to some sort of wood or stone. WHen I looked up i was inside some tempel or temple grounds doing walking meditation, but the outlines were very vague. As if I wasn't fully there. walking became tiresome and excrusiationly slow. like trudging through thick mud. looking up again I saw a figure. I couldn't get to "him?" walking didn't get me anywhere so I flew to him which didn't seem to work either. I asked for help and flushed through some long waterslide tunnel like structure and washe dup on another more summery beach. I couldn't decide if it was a beach I had made in the past or astral pulse island.

walking again didn't get me anywhere again. So I asked for guidance(My intent btw was on meeting a guide)I flew up to get an overview and saw vast amounts of landscape and cities all around.
From one spot in the distance a green light line connected me to it. So I flew along that line.
There I saw a large symbol sort of like the mirror image of FF in orange flames.

Entering that I was engulfed in flames. I was aware of beings with me and a lonely monk sitting in a medetative posture.
I thought it was a retrieval at that point and tried to get the monks attention which didn't work so I sat acros him and mimicked his posture for a while. That got his attention and at that point I sensed communication between the monk and someone with me through my energyfield. The monk was gone at which point the flames themselves felt more like a cleansing.. SO I stood in them for a while/

Rethinking the imagery I am now thinking that instead of a retrieval it may just have been an energetic cleansing. Not sure anymore..

I returned to waking consciousness and got out of the tub

When starting the gateway experience I got impationed and instead of going in order I skipped a few cd's and started the odysee(wave VI)
Fun exercises, but I felt I was straining to enter my energy body and couldn't let go of teh physical. Did track 1 and 2/ On the second I could sense some lightness and floating, but no sepperation from the physical. I do experience a deepening and shallowing going back and forth through the focus levels from 1 to 3 to 10 to 12..

With Love
Eelco

[Lumaza]

 I would say door #3 the "?" is the right one here. It didn't seem like a Retrieval. I feel the Monk was the guide you asked for and he taught you to just sit back and "passively observe" all that was occurring with the flame.

 Your whole scenario began with a focus on a "Fantasy/imaginary" scene. But it soon morphed into much more, as you have stated here.

 I see you are really focused on the physical even while in the NP. It took a while until you got the idea to fly, thus losing your focus on this physical ruleset here. When I am in the NP, I begin as a point of consciousness and only use a "physical vessel" per se, if the scenario calls for one.

 I lie back into the water and my first mental affirmation or declaration, I should say is "By my act of will I "RELEASE" my focus on my physical body". This is the same mental "command" I use nightly as well. I found that by losing my physical mindset focus right away, opens me up to much more unique experiences right off the bat.

 I do have a few questions though. When looked behind and beside you to "ground" yourself there and take in more of the scene, did you "turn" your head or were you seeing from a 360 viewpoint? You mentioned that you had no "tactile" sensations earlier in the experience, did that change later on into it? Could you feel the heat of the flame? Did the flame scare or shock you?

 When I use my "Happy Place" focus, which in case mine is a Tropical Island Paradise, I first look around. At that point I feel the sensation of moving my head. Then I will become aware that I am lying on the beach. I will then pick up some sand and watch as it sifts through my fingers. This will help me to "ground" myself in the scenario. I will do that for a few minutes until something lese catches my attention. That new occurrence will then pique my curiosity and quickly become some kind of new happening or experience. Sometimes along the line, movement becomes more smooth, as in floating. Once in awhile I will also spontaneously find myself above the beach, as in flying, taking in the overall scene from above.

 I mentioned on another AP related Forum my Happy Place technique and another poster there, a Moderator named Novice, shared the way she sees this Tropical beach scenario. She always begins her journey on a cliff looking over the beach scene. I tried that a few times and it lead into a jettison to space experience. The times I attempted it, the scenario I was viewing got "hi-jacked" into being launched into the air like a rocket, viewing the planets, the Universe/s, the space warps, it really was a spectacle.

 Your detail in recall is very good. I normally have to abort a experience, to be able to have such good recall. The longer the scenario goes, the more seemingly important points I forget.

 You are doing fantastic. I look forward to hearing more from you! 

[catsquotl]

Thank You Lumaza,

I am still split about the monks role, because of the communication that went on through me at that stage. Some symbols and pixelated energy cubes felt like they were manipulated by someone outside the scenarion, but definetly there. using the sybolism to "talk" to the monk at which point the monk stood up and left/was taken away.

Thinking about it makes me wonder if we were helping each other out somehow. He showing me to sit in mild curiosity and observe. Me reaching him through proximity and energy signature so he could leave his selfimposed burning prison..

My takeaway of the whole thing was letting it all just wash over me, first the waves, then the flames. A cleansing perhaps?

I do have a few questions though. When looked behind and beside you to "ground" yourself there and take in more of the scene, did you "turn" your head or were you seeing from a 360 viewpoint? You mentioned that you had no "tactile" sensations earlier in the experience, did that change later on into it? Could you feel the heat of the flame? Did the flame scare or shock you?

I didn't turn or move most of the time, more that I inted to turn and my p.o.v. changed. It did change in a manner I am familiar with, which made me think I turned myself. Tactile sensations did not increase whatsover throughout the whole scenario. The waves, walking, flying and standing in flames all were more that I knew/saw what was going on that felt the sensations that usually acompany those.

I have spend much time doing some form of vipassana meditation. after a while doing that I observed how the body experiences something where the mind knows the experience a little later. Here it seemed that there was only the knowing of the experience. When I played with this stuff a decade ago I described it that the way I see or experience the astral is more like the way one remembers something.

Your detail in recall is very good. I normally have to abort a experience, to be able to have such good recall. The longer the scenario goes, the more seemingly important points I forget.

 You are doing fantastic. I look forward to hearing more from you! 

This level of recall only happens on travels initiated form a body awake/mind aware state.
meaning I am not letting go, but consciously starting the scenario and let it unfold in my imagination. That takes a level of immersion out of it which I am still searching for.
It must be amazing to really leave the physical vessel for a while and immerse oneself in out of body experiences..

WIth Love
Eelco

[catsquotl]

After talking to Smertios and Rakkso on the chat I thought it may be helpfull to post this little 12 minute snippet of a Bruce Moen talk I came across the other day.
Here he explains his process of what to look for during retrievals as he thaught them in his afterlife knowledge workshops.

For clarity purposes. I have neven been to his workshops, but have read all his books and after watching some polish, subtitled movie about one of his workshops I sort of created a similar workflow back in the day.
Next to this I used to incorporate pendulooms and a few other techniques to download/channel/recieve rote information and what not.
Also what now in my experience is just one sessions from begin to end.Has in the past taken days of discontinued short(minutes) bursts of " working" before a full narrative emerged..

Anyway for those interested.
Here's the link. https://youtu.be/zDjRJ5NA2jY

With Love
Eelco