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Author Topic: How do you know if any of this is real?  (Read 11993 times)
listener
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« on: March 22, 2006, 22:46:19 »

Hi All,

I used to have experiences like those you describe -sleep paralysis (sometimes induced, sometimes accidental upon re-awakening from sleep), the buzzing that releases you into a void, the 3D blackness, then (sometimes) a tunnel, then a short-lived experience in a world that seems to be formed of vivid, intense imagery.

I never trained in this, but I still experienced it, and I rather enjoyed what I saw. The thing is, I lost it somewhat, and it happens now and again, but I find it hard to remember what's happened.

About me: I'm in my mid twenties, and I've recently discovered that I don't have long to live (long story), and I'd like to know if any of it was real, mainly for that reason.

I used to wonder whether it was a hypnogogic state playing tricks with my mind. I sort of wanted it to be true, and sooner or later I had to admit that it could be all in my mind. Suddenly, the issue is extremely relevant to me/

So my question to the posters here is this: How can you be sure? In fact, how can you even know that any of this isn't just dream...

Thanks in advance for your replies.
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kiwibonga
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« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2006, 23:20:25 »

I'm sorry to hear that. What condition do you have, if you don't mind me asking?

In any case, there have been verification experiments (google "OBE verification experiment") where people were able to prove that OBEs are "real" -- in other words that they are more than just a creation of the mind, because they give you the ability to see and know things that you couldn't possibly have made up (such as guessing numbers or being able to describe a place in detail without having been there physically, and without having seen pictures of it)

About the afterlife... I am pretty convinced there is something after life. There's plenty of books by respectable authors who explained what happened... Plenty of internet resources as well. I trust authors who talk about OBEs, since those are real, and therefore I trust what they say about the afterlife.

I won't give you advice about what to do, however. If I were you I would read a bit on the subject, but I think overall "knowing in advance" spoils the experience. One thing that may be useful, though, is to find out about the things you need to avoid (to prevent being stuck in a lower vibratory plane).
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« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2006, 23:20:25 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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listener
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« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2006, 23:36:33 »

Quote from: kiwibonga

In any case, there have been verification experiments (google "OBE verification experiment") where people were able to prove that OBEs are "real" -- in other words that they are more than just a creation of the mind, because they give you the ability to see and know things that you couldn't possibly have made up

I have googled this sort of thing, and nothing credible's turned up. I suppose I'd like to hear if there's anything people here have experienced that has convinced them of the reality of this.

I'd like to trust the people who publish books on this stuff and earn a living from it, but without at least some opinions to verify it it's difficult. I'm posting here because I know that it's not in the interests of forum posters to lie for the sake of making money. I trust people with no financial incentive more than those who charge.
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kiwibonga
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« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2006, 23:41:13 »

Well, astral projection books are definitely not money makers... The target audience is so small, and the books so numerous...

Anyway... We are all bound to find out the truth one day, one way or the other...

EDIT: and sorry, I can't prove anything myself because I've had only two exits so far :p
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listener
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« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2006, 23:50:18 »

Quote from: kiwibonga

EDIT: and sorry, I can't prove anything myself because I've had only two exits so far :p

Thanks anyway.
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« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2006, 23:50:18 »



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mactombs
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« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2006, 18:16:02 »

Quote
So my question to the posters here is this: How can you be sure? In fact, how can you even know that any of this isn't just dream...


I can't even be sure that real life is real life and not some simulation, some "thicker" dream. How do you define reality? Is it consensus? Is it only real if everyone agrees on it? You need to define for yourself what reality means.

I can't give you evidence, but I can tell you that the wider reality I've had experiences with has been sometimes much more "real" feeling to me than being here right now typing this message.

If I'm wrong about there being an afterlife, I'll never know it. If I'm right, though, I'll be much better prepared for expecting it, and for living my life as if it is preparation for continuing on - in which case, what is most valuable to me? What can I take with me? Memories, experiences, personal growth ...

I hope you have more experiences with the OBE.
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listener
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« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2006, 21:51:26 »

Thanks for the interesting responses -I realise that it's a very subjective experience. I was probably being a bit straw-clutchy with that post.

No, I'm not religious, because I'm too much of a skeptic!

BTW -are the Bruce Moen books any good?

The thing about a lot of this astral travel thing is, there are definitely correlations, yes? The paralysis, the buzzing noise, then the 'doiiing' noise? Like a spring? The 3d blackness, the tunnel, the hyper-vivid nature of the visions? I wonder is there a correlation in astral geography too?

When I used to do it, I was aware of these silly little 'fluffy' things, skittery little beasts that sort of grip onto you when you're trying to explore.

Additionally -is there any significance to the Winking Cartoon Alligator? *no kidding* That bit was probably dream based, but it seemed relevant as I saw it on coming back to normal one evening.

I also remember that water and naturalistic imagery was usually the place you end up. Fields sometimes, but commonly beaches and rockeries, also deserts. One place was a sandy, adobe-block village with rose bushes that were blocking the view into the gardens.

 (I only did it 6 or 7 times with conscious awareness)

There was also a tunnel that *sometimes* appeared, which you shoot down at high speed. I had managed to stop myself on a few occasions, by catching the edge, to find, surprisingly, that it was almost industrial like in structure (sort of like the game Doom, actually). I only have one memory of doing this, and found it quite painful and pressurizing to stay in the tunnel, and felt like I had to catch the slipstream of the main movement flow again as a matter of urgency.

I also remember that on the occasions that I encountered another human-like being, it was sort of moving at a weird frame-rate, 'stuttering' along as if it was skipping a few frames in a juddery walk. Very weird.

Additionally, it was hard to remain on an 'Astral' plane when I was there, and I would have to focus very hard to stay where I was. I would find myself touching the floor and feeling surfaces to ensure I could stay there, and weirdly, looking at my own hand.

Ring any bells?
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greatoutdoors
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« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2006, 22:46:33 »

Listener,

As to being religious, there is a thread called Agnosticism and Atheism in World Religions that is well worth reading.

Also, The Voice of Silence has done a great deal of work on verifying his OBE and astral experiences. I don't know how to link them. You might try a search for him and use "verification" as a keyword.

Major Tom is right -- there is no way you are going to "prove" a lot of the things we experience. (That doesn't mean we should quit trying!)  smiley

I made a few posts on this topic you might want to look at. Do a search for anesthesia and me and that should get you there.

Major Tom, that was an awesome post by Stone! Makes me wonder if he has had any more of them.
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knightlight
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« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2006, 23:54:04 »

Man... the ultimate question.  I agree 100% with mactombs, the first thing I thought when reading your original post was "how do we know all THIS is real?HuhHuhHuh"  I have had far too many experiences that make me question this reality and my sanity!  cheesy   Reality, in my mind, as a word, as being a solid defined thing, doesnt exist.  It all just IS.  To me its not important whether it is real or  not, what does it really matter in the end?  It is an experience to live through and take with you no matter how you dice it and that is how I treat this life and my OBEs.
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« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2006, 00:23:45 »

Quote from: knightlight
Reality, in my mind, as a word, as being a solid defined thing, doesnt exist.  It all just IS


Indeed
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« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2006, 11:25:36 »

hello Listener

I can not answer your question but I would like to share some of my thoughts on it.

Is this all just our mind playing tricks on us?

I just recently had a lucid dream which was very clear. I was there in a strange world but actually this world was not so different to this "objective" reality I'm in right now. In the dream i had a body and my consciousness was "inside" that Body while I was observing the "outer" dream world. Solid objects I could observe that had just as much detail as the physical world. I could feel the water from the river I was swimming in, feel the cold air on my skin, see the beautiful colors of the light reflecting from the surface of the river, yes there was a obvious difference when I really controlled my thoughts I could change the objects, move my hand thru them etc: I'm sure you know all of this, just a regular LD....


my point is this: If we assume that all this was created by my mind. We actually say that the air that touches my skin inside that dream and the skin being touched is just one and the same thing Mind. I mean this is crazy as well!
the conclusion is that my mind can create a point a consciousness and a outside world which that consciousness can explore and which seems separated from the consciousness. It seems that Mind is not equal consciousness.
If my mind can do such a huge trick maybe he can even do a bigger trick called objective reality? I can't think of a good reason why it shouldn't. It seems like a small step from that dream world to a objective world, just  take a way the "control thru thought" aspect and there you go!

So when you die  keep your eyes open I'm sure it won't be end of the story smiley

Sorry of this sounds a bit sarcastic, I don't mean to my english is not so good. Of course it is very sad that you have to die and my compassion is with you, i hope you get my point.

regards Tom
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« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2006, 14:05:42 »

Quote from: mactombs

I can't even be sure that real life is real life and not some simulation, some "thicker" dream. How do you define reality? Is it consensus? Is it only real if everyone agrees on it? You need to define for yourself what reality means.

I can't give you evidence, but I can tell you that the wider reality I've had experiences with has been sometimes much more "real" feeling to me than being here right now typing this message.

If I'm wrong about there being an afterlife, I'll never know it. If I'm right, though, I'll be much better prepared for expecting it, and for living my life as if it is preparation for continuing on - in which case, what is most valuable to me? What can I take with me? Memories, experiences, personal growth ...

I hope you have more experiences with the OBE.


 I think it’s needlessly complicating the issue by stating such things as ‘well is reality real’ in response to questions regarding the reality of OBEs. With reality there does seem a consensus baseline to our experiences which allow these experiences to be shared. For example, if we both go away and read the same book, we will both have experiences of the exact same words (but interpreted personally) – or if we went away, even on other sides of the world and watched the same program, listened to the same song, conducted the same experiment etc. If reality is a simulation or not means little in this discussion – it’s the consistency of reality which is important. Unless our memory is faulty i.e. each previous day to this one we remember is a fabrication, and we have only just ‘popped’ into existence with this previous memory placed in us rather than experienced, and if solipsism holds weight, then it doesn’t change this shared area we all experience.
 With the astral even the same person has trouble experiencing consistency over time, and tales of 2+ people meeting in the astral are rare in deed. Even these tales are open to interpretation (through both parties setting intention before the experience, and to a degree, gullibility and a desire for it to be true).
 If one just takes the OBE experience as experience in itself, then it’s fine. But if on tries to interpret astral experiences against all our experiences of reality – this is when we hit a brick wall and nothing adds up. Personally I search for knowledge of all areas, and not just knowledge of the astral – this is why even to this day I still question its validity [in regards to the spiritual models and philosophies attributed to it].
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« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2006, 14:18:16 »

Quote

Is this all just our mind playing tricks on us?

I just recently had a lucid dream which was very clear. I was there in a strange world but actually this world was not so different to this "objective" reality I'm in right now. In the dream i had a body and my consciousness was "inside" that Body while I was observing the "outer" dream world. Solid objects I could observe that had just as much detail as the physical world. I could feel the water from the river I was swimming in, feel the cold air on my skin, see the beautiful colors of the light reflecting from the surface of the river, yes there was a obvious difference when I really controlled my thoughts I could change the objects, move my hand thru them etc: I'm sure you know all of this, just a regular LD....

my point is this: If we assume that all this was created by my mind. We actually say that the air that touches my skin inside that dream and the skin being touched is just one and the same thing Mind. I mean this is crazy as well!
the conclusion is that my mind can create a point a consciousness and a outside world which that consciousness can explore and which seems separated from the consciousness. It seems that Mind is not equal consciousness.
If my mind can do such a huge trick maybe he can even do a bigger trick called objective reality? I can't think of a good reason why it shouldn't. It seems like a small step from that dream world to a objective world, just take a way the "control thru thought" aspect and there you go!

So when you die keep your eyes open I'm sure it won't be end of the story  

Sorry of this sounds a bit sarcastic, I don't mean to my english is not so good. Of course it is very sad that you have to die and my compassion is with you, i hope you get my point.

regards Tom


 There are a few differences between LDs and reality. Firstly, as in my previous post, reality has an underlying consistency and rule set for all. Secondly, LDs end and we wake back up in this reality.
 Yes, your mind created the LD environment, but it is no different to how your mind creates consensus reality. Your sensory organs take in information, this is relayed to your brain, and then your brain constructs what we perceive to be reality. The form reality takes is very much based upon the evolution of the brain – such as colours mean nothing outside of human experience (They are just certain frequencies of light). The same with structures. Many studies have shown that our eyes take in little information compared to this rich reality we perceive. This suggests that the brain creates a lot of detail and form from more basic information.
 As the brain interprets reality, everything we ever interact with is brain generated. But just because the brain can generate this, doesn’t mean it creates it. It is created through sensory input from ‘outside’ of us. When we LD, the brain simply uses the same pathways used to perceive waking day reality. This is why it feels so real.
 Regarding death – we can ‘live on’ without there being any afterlife. Such theories which suggest this look at the subjective nature of time. As ones brain nears death, subjective passage of time could grind to a near halt. So we might live ‘forever’ in a brain created environment (i.e. like an LD) in between the space of life and death. As the brain can seem to generate worlds, how would we know whether we are in a shared astral, or a self generated environment in a dying brain?
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« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2006, 16:53:13 »

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As the brain can seem to generate worlds, how would we know whether we are in a shared astral, or a self generated environment in a dying brain?


Wow, I can imagine you dying and being very confused. Am I really dead or in a coma? Is this bright light and feeling of peace lack of oxygen in my brain (ever read The Life of Pi?)

I'm poking fun, yes, but at myself as well. I have a similar mindset when it comes to things - maybe a little too agnostic about everything. Sometimes you have to take a leap of faith (as much as I hate to admit it). The policy that it's impossible to ever know anything with certainty just doesn't work.
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« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2006, 18:27:31 »

Quote from: mactombs
Quote
As the brain can seem to generate worlds, how would we know whether we are in a shared astral, or a self generated environment in a dying brain?


Wow, I can imagine you dying and being very confused. Am I really dead or in a coma? Is this bright light and feeling of peace lack of oxygen in my brain (ever read The Life of Pi?)


lol. Haven't read it, but my partner informed me she borrowed it months ago for me to read (I'd forgotten) so i'll start reading it later today  tongue .

Quote

I'm poking fun, yes, but at myself as well. I have a similar mindset when it comes to things - maybe a little too agnostic about everything. Sometimes you have to take a leap of faith (as much as I hate to admit it). The policy that it's impossible to ever know anything with certainty just doesn't work.


I guess I err on the side of science because it at least allows for a common framework and the possibility of answers - where with faith you really are on your own with no possibility of ever truely knowing anything as that is replaced by 'blind belief'. I'm not saying this is a bad thing - but I figure there must be some common elements to reality/self/being which might be discoverable and allow us to find the answers we seek (the hisotry of science seems to suggest this). Sticking to a rational framework might be the long way round, but I think it might deliver what we want - wheras our spiritual evolution to date has been based on faith, and in all this time we are still debating the truth of it  :confused: .
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« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2006, 19:46:45 »

Quote from: MisterJingo


There are a few differences between LDs and reality. Firstly, as in my previous post, reality has an underlying consistency and rule set for all. Secondly, LDs end and we wake back up in this reality.


Yes true, but my argument was if the mind can create the dream enviroment it may also create this reality. This still holds, maybe the mind just creates a couple of copie consciousnesses to interact and lets them experience a consistent reality?

 
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Yes, your mind created the LD environment, but it is no different to how your mind creates consensus reality.


Yes thats what i mean.

Quote
Your sensory organs take in information, this is relayed to your brain, and then your brain constructs what we perceive to be reality.


Thats the theory smiley  But are you sure your brain creates your consiousness and mind as well? there is not a single theory I know that can explain how a machine (e.g brain) can create consiousness.


 

Quote
As the brain interprets reality, everything we ever interact with is brain generated.


I wouldn't count on that. what about people experiencing NDE? they interact with things while braindead. And their interactions seem not so much different then the interactions we know from normal reality.

Quote
But just because the brain can generate this, doesn’t mean it creates it. It is created through sensory input from ‘outside’ of us.


The funny thing is we can never be sure if there is something outside of us. frustrating .........


Quote
When we LD, the brain simply uses the same pathways used to perceive waking day reality. This is why it feels so real.


But what about NDE? they seem LD-like as well.


 
Quote
Regarding death – we can ‘live on’ without there being any afterlife. Such theories which suggest this look at the subjective nature of time. As ones brain nears death, subjective passage of time could grind to a near halt. So we might live ‘forever’ in a brain created environment (i.e. like an LD) in between the space of life and death. As the brain can seem to generate worlds, how would we know whether we are in a shared astral, or a self generated environment in a dying brain?



lol interesting idea! not really more plausible then the ones i have presented though. When we give the brain that much power we can't be sure of anything at all.

So maybe I dind't state my conclusion very clearly in the last post which would be OBE LD etc are not a mere product of the brain.
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« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2006, 21:34:40 »

Quote from: MisterJingo

 Regarding death – we can ‘live on’ without there being any afterlife. Such theories which suggest this look at the subjective nature of time. As ones brain nears death, subjective passage of time could grind to a near halt. So we might live ‘forever’ in a brain created environment (i.e. like an LD) in between the space of life and death. As the brain can seem to generate worlds, how would we know whether we are in a shared astral, or a self generated environment in a dying brain?


Would we be alive for eternity in that state so? Cos when a person is buried their brain rots, it is eventually gone, but could "you" survive that? (if that theory is true)
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« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2006, 21:40:36 »

Quote
I guess I err on the side of science because it at least allows for a common framework and the possibility of answers


MisterJingo, I feel there is some work in this vein going on, albeit slowly and pretty much under the radar. But due to the nature of OBEs, I feel there are other ways (besides waiting for a scientific study to come out) to verify some of these things. For instance, Frank said:

Quote
What has happened is the primary thrust of my work on the Astral Pulse has changed to the extent where my priority now is to teach people the Phasing Approach (those that want to, obviously) so we can get projecting and hopefully meet up within Focus 3 of consciousness.


I still want to reach this goal. I think it's possible that you and I (and others) could meet in Focus 3 and verify details of the experience with as much clarity as if we had met in a coffee shop down the road in physical life.
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« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2006, 22:23:30 »

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Thats the theory smiley  But are you sure your brain creates your consiousness and mind as well? there is not a single theory I know that can explain how a machine (e.g brain) can create consiousness.


I’m really not sure if brain creates consciousness. But I can’t ignore all the work done in neurology which shows how various brain areas are related to cognitive functions and memory, sensation, etc. Look at brain damaged people, they suffer impairments from mild to pretty extreme – so we cannot deny the brain plays a major (if not total) role in what we are. People might argue that the brain is a receiver and parts of the receiver are damaged – but as yet this is purely belief to hold on to a belief system about the brain.
 
Quote

Quote
As the brain interprets reality, everything we ever interact with is brain generated.


I wouldn't count on that. what about people experiencing NDE? they interact with things while braindead. And their interactions seem not so much different then the interactions we know from normal reality.


No NDE has been recorded in a brain dead person. Brain activity can still be recorded in the core brain for weeks after ‘death’. What this means I really don’t know. But all NDEs to date happen within seconds/minutes of heart stopping, and their brain still functioning pretty normally.

Quote


Quote
But just because the brain can generate this, doesn’t mean it creates it. It is created through sensory input from ‘outside’ of us.


The funny thing is we can never be sure if there is something outside of us. frustrating .........


I agree with this to an extent. I am more perhaps of the belief we cannot know what exactly is outside of us. Reality as we perceive it might be interference patterns interpreted as what we see now (i.e. hologram). I once had an experience where I perceived myself to be like a circular organ attached by nerves and veins to a larger body. Everyone was this kind of organ, forever attached to this larger body for survival – yet the nerves running into us fed us what we perceived to be external stimuli – so rather than this senseless object, we perceived ourselves to be humanoid and living in a rich environment (reality).

Quote


Quote
When we LD, the brain simply uses the same pathways used to perceive waking day reality. This is why it feels so real.


But what about NDE? they seem LD-like as well.

To an extent. But there are a lot of theories regarding NDEs and DMT release into the brain (DMT is a psychedelic which creates OBEs in its users and is produced by the brain).

Quote


 
Quote
Regarding death – we can ‘live on’ without there being any afterlife. Such theories which suggest this look at the subjective nature of time. As ones brain nears death, subjective passage of time could grind to a near halt. So we might live ‘forever’ in a brain created environment (i.e. like an LD) in between the space of life and death. As the brain can seem to generate worlds, how would we know whether we are in a shared astral, or a self generated environment in a dying brain?



lol interesting idea! not really more plausible then the ones i have presented though. When we give the brain that much power we can't be sure of anything at all.

So maybe I dind't state my conclusion very clearly in the last post which would be OBE LD etc are not a mere product of the brain.


But as yet, nothing what-so-ever indicates they are more than the brain. And this is what frustrates me. We have many gurus who I shan’t name release books every few years, yet they cannot be bothered to at least provide some proof of this phenomenon (which they could easily do if the stories they tell are true).
 The idea I presented has some plausibility. For instance, psychedelic users can experience a feeling of timelessness – in many instances I have literally lived decades in the space of minutes while on very high doses of psychedelics. it can really impair subjective time perception. The brain can produce the most potent psychedelic known to man, and it seems in times of trauma it might flood the brain with DMT – which might be responsible for mystical experiences and NDEs etc. I cannot see why evolution hasn’t prepared us for death, so as our body nears it, it might release massive amount of DMT into our brain which creates a drastic slowing of time – and we perceive ourselves to leave our body and move into a joyous afterlife etc. Perhaps oblivion occurring when our afterlife adventure takes us to the source (which would mean oblivion as far as we are concerned).
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« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2006, 22:31:17 »

Quote from: Donal
Quote from: MisterJingo

 Regarding death – we can ‘live on’ without there being any afterlife. Such theories which suggest this look at the subjective nature of time. As ones brain nears death, subjective passage of time could grind to a near halt. So we might live ‘forever’ in a brain created environment (i.e. like an LD) in between the space of life and death. As the brain can seem to generate worlds, how would we know whether we are in a shared astral, or a self generated environment in a dying brain?


Would we be alive for eternity in that state so? Cos when a person is buried their brain rots, it is eventually gone, but could "you" survive that? (if that theory is true)


If time dilation hit near zero, we could easily live for what seems to be multiple eternities before the brain rotted. What if subjective time could stop to an extent where it would never experience the brain rotting as it nearly hits zero.
 Or what if the brain rotting is perceived subjectively as us reaching enlightenment and fading into the source? Fading into the source would create individual oblivion; such as if we were the product of our brain and we died that would create individual oblivion too. What is the difference?
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MisterJingo
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« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2006, 22:46:54 »

Quote from: mactombs
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I guess I err on the side of science because it at least allows for a common framework and the possibility of answers


MisterJingo, I feel there is some work in this vein going on, albeit slowly and pretty much under the radar. But due to the nature of OBEs, I feel there are other ways (besides waiting for a scientific study to come out) to verify some of these things.


I agree. There is some work going on, but much of it seems not geared towards proving the validity of OBEs, but to explain OBEs as a symptom of brain or personality malfunction etc.
 I guess I just feel frustrated and ask myself when we should drop a certain explanation for a phenomenon when 40 thousand years plus of human history has not produced a single shred of anything which cannot be explained away. We supposedly have people on this forum who can project whenever they want, we have gurus who say they can project whenever they want, yet none of them are the least bit interested in producing any form of evidence - but are happy to take cash for books, CDs, seminars, talks, cources etc. Some might argue that it’s pointless trying to prove such things to others; you can only prove it to yourself. But firstly, if that’s the case, why bother using forums such as this which try to help others achieve this state – to an extent this shows people do want proof even if they won’t admit it. Secondly, proving it to yourself is not proof that OBEs are experienced out of the body. Until we have some greater evidence, OBEs could be explained as a neurological malfunction or some such thing (I’m not saying it is before anyone jumps on me Smiley). I guess I just wonder when do we say enough is enough.

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 For instance, Frank said:

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What has happened is the primary thrust of my work on the Astral Pulse has changed to the extent where my priority now is to teach people the Phasing Approach (those that want to, obviously) so we can get projecting and hopefully meet up within Focus 3 of consciousness.


I still want to reach this goal. I think it's possible that you and I (and others) could meet in Focus 3 and verify details of the experience with as much clarity as if we had met in a coffee shop down the road in physical life.


I would love for such a thing to happen, or for people to do such a thing. My experience of this to date can be explained away as guided visualisation (people in the same place doing it and talking about it together) or as a form of suggestion and desire creating an experience. people tie up results, but due to wanting it to be true, they guide each other to conclusions. The memory is a pretty unreliable thing.
 perhaps this is just my frustration showing through Smiley.
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CFTraveler
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« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2006, 01:09:08 »

MJ wrote:  
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guess I just feel frustrated and ask myself when we should drop a certain explanation for a phenomenon when 40 thousand years plus of human history has not produced a single shred of anything which cannot be explained away.
Can you be more specific?  Do you mean when people experience floating out of the body and other such experiences they shouldnt be taken for what they believe they are perceiving because they can be 'explained away' as opposed to explained?
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why bother using forums such as this which try to help others achieve this state
– Some of us do it because it's enjoyable, and like sharing any information that helps people achieve this to share in the experience. It doesn't have to be proven, because some of us have had experiences that couldn't be explained away.  Of course anything can be explained away- If 20 people see something that isn't supposed to exist, they are having a 'mass hallucination.'  Easy.  I guess it's the motivation that matters- are these people trying to explain something, or explain it away?
 
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Secondly, proving it to yourself is not proof that OBEs are experienced out of the body. Until we have some greater evidence, OBEs could be explained as a neurological malfunction or some such thing
OB's could be explained as anything, but why should they be?  It's hard enough in  larger society to admit publicly that one is having episodes of 'altered reality' states, without stigma being attached to it.  Why should a group of people that share an experience be compelled to label their exerience as a neurological malfunction?
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I guess I just wonder when do we say enough is enough.

Enough what? Expressing what is happening to them? Discussing it? Coming up with explanations that someone else disagrees with? And what happens when I express an 'unacceptable' opinion? I thought forums like these were for expressing ideas and opinions (and even, yes, theories) that may not be 'socially acceptable' or in alignment with the larger society and do so safely.
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MisterJingo
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« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2006, 08:30:06 »

Quote from: CFTraveler
MJ wrote:  
Quote
guess I just feel frustrated and ask myself when we should drop a certain explanation for a phenomenon when 40 thousand years plus of human history has not produced a single shred of anything which cannot be explained away.
Can you be more specific?  Do you mean when people experience floating out of the body and other such experiences they shouldnt be taken for what they believe they are perceiving because they can be 'explained away' as opposed to explained?


I guess I meant the entire philosophy which has grown around the OBE phenomenon. Experiencing OBE in most peoples eyes now equates with taking on a gigantic belief system which incorporates many different realities, astral realms, hierarchies of helpers, beings etc. And perhaps to an extent perceiving things OBE does not mean we survive physical death – we believe it does mean that, but all OBEs/NDEs occur with a functional brain.
 I guess looking at it from an objective viewpoint if I have an hypothesis, and many thousand of people test it for a long period of time – yet that hypothesis is never proven – when do we change the hypothesis or perhaps concede things are not how we want them to be?

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why bother using forums such as this which try to help others achieve this state
– Some of us do it because it's enjoyable, and like sharing any information that helps people achieve this to share in the experience. It doesn't have to be proven, because some of us have had experiences that couldn't be explained away.  Of course anything can be explained away- If 20 people see something that isn't supposed to exist, they are having a 'mass hallucination.'  Easy.  I guess it's the motivation that matters- are these people trying to explain something, or explain it away?


 This is taking out of context what I meant, or perhaps I wasn’t clear in what I did mean. I don’t mean “explain away” as in to flippantly throw away experiences; I meant explain as in to find the truth regardless of what we want the truth to be. Many people will not even look at any potential scientific basis for OBE, even fewer will be bothered to read deeply into our current medical understanding of the brain and how it relates to self and experience. They would much rather take on a ‘fluffy’ belief system using a few OBEs as proof of its reality and disregarding all science as a belief system, or a test for the faithful, or people living in a ‘box’ and deluding themselves. Everything but consider the possibilities science offers.

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Secondly, proving it to yourself is not proof that OBEs are experienced out of the body. Until we have some greater evidence, OBEs could be explained as a neurological malfunction or some such thing
OB's could be explained as anything, but why should they be?  It's hard enough in  larger society to admit publicly that one is having episodes of 'altered reality' states, without stigma being attached to it.  Why should a group of people that share an experience be compelled to label their exerience as a neurological malfunction?


But then again, why should a group disregarding all other explanations simply because they don’t like them.  Neurological malfunction was perhaps a bit of a harsh word; perhaps I should have said a neurological experience.
 My whole point being, I have projected since childhood, I have had some validation experiences, one involving my sister seeing me OBE. But this does not instantly validate all philosophies relating to the astral. It simply means that while my brain was alive, and I was having an experience which I perceived to be outside of my body, my sister seemed to have seen me. The mechanics behind this I really don’t know, but perhaps one day I fill find out – regardless of what I want those mechanics to be.

Quote

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I guess I just wonder when do we say enough is enough.

Enough what? Expressing what is happening to them? Discussing it? Coming up with explanations that someone else disagrees with? And what happens when I express an 'unacceptable' opinion? I thought forums like these were for expressing ideas and opinions (and even, yes, theories) that may not be 'socially acceptable' or in alignment with the larger society and do so safely.


 I think you have taken my post completely out of context. I have never once used the phrase ‘socially acceptable’. I agree forums like these are about expressing our opinions, and sharing knowledge – have I ever refuted that? Perhaps I alluded to the fact that people also share their explanations too. For example, a teenager has been having strange experiences out of body, I would happily bet that within a few weeks on an AP forum they would be attributing their OBEs to energy bodies, and have integrated the astral into their belief system etc. This was my point. No one questions this knowledge, yet they are happy to throw away knowledge from other sources. If one is indoctrinated in any form to an area of knowledge, their experiences ion the astral will, to an extent, reinforce that knowledge. So are they seeing truth or are they seeing what they believed they would see?
When I said when do we say ‘enough is enough’ I meant enough of taking on blinding belief systems whose roots lie in a past where man had a seriously misguided view of self and the world.
 For example, Robert Monroe experienced OBEs, yet he didn’t need to integrate energy bodies, and astral locales into his belief system. He remained objective and his discoveries were quite different to other gurus. The interstate, the belief system territories sitting around earth, M-Band energy, discovery of his internal I-There etc. If he had been indoctrinated in the standard astral philosophies, I’ve no doubt his works would have used familiar terms such as chakras, energy bodies etc. I just think if more people thought for themselves and questioned everything, and looked at what evidence is on offer from all sources (yes, even the dreaded science) we might have more answers now than a reinforcement of belief driven philosophies again and again.
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MisterJingo
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« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2006, 08:35:25 »

Just to add. People might argue that the underlying astral is the same, just people experience it differently. I think there might be a bit of truth in that, but the reality of it would be much different. Whose to say no objective proof has developed because near everyon who projects says proof is impossible to get etc. Whose to say its not a sel-fulfilling belief system?
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« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2006, 11:43:46 »

Quote from: mactombs
Quote
I guess I err on the side of science because it at least allows for a common framework and the possibility of answers


MisterJingo, I feel there is some work in this vein going on, albeit slowly and pretty much under the radar. But due to the nature of OBEs, I feel there are other ways (besides waiting for a scientific study to come out) to verify some of these things. For instance, Frank said:

Quote
What has happened is the primary thrust of my work on the Astral Pulse has changed to the extent where my priority now is to teach people the Phasing Approach (those that want to, obviously) so we can get projecting and hopefully meet up within Focus 3 of consciousness.


I still want to reach this goal. I think it's possible that you and I (and others) could meet in Focus 3 and verify details of the experience with as much clarity as if we had met in a coffee shop down the road in physical life.


As soon as you are able to reach F3 on purpose, please let me know.

I will try as well
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