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Author Topic: How do you know if any of this is real?  (Read 11492 times)
MisterJingo
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« Reply #50 on: March 30, 2006, 14:49:41 »

Quote from: Donal
Sorry, what I meant is neurology is just an assumption about consciousness and that stuff. A person has a NDE and they automatically think it is a problem with the brain, avoiding the profound experience it was on the individual, rather than some hazard that they can hardly remember.


Neurology itself makes no assumptions about consciousness (some practitioners might have their own ideas though) – it just studies the brain and from it we gain increasingly detailed data regarding the brain.
I think most who have an NDE would take it as they are dying and they survive death Smiley – I think anyone would find it a profound experience Smiley.

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Also about the brains core processes, if memory is a thing of the brain, do you not think that it would be affected at all with the brain running much less than it's optimal capacity? When people go throught the tunnel they see, let's say Jesus, they can remember him in vivid detail, and their passed away relatives too. This all points to consciousness still operating at full capacity, a feat which I think would be impossible if it was produced by the brain, because the brain would be in disarray IMO when it's electrical activity cannot even be sensed on the EEG.


 As far as I know there has been no patients hooked up to an EEG during an NDE. There have been experiments (I think Charles Tart) of people OBEing when hooked up to an EEG, but the results showed nothing unusual.
 The thing is, NDES happen literally seconds after ‘death’ or even in times when the body is not actually dead, but might be close(which brings up an interesting point, when do we say the body is dead? When the heart stops? When there is no electrical activity in the brain?). So unless we have evidence which shows the brain stops functioning normally the second one might possibly die, we can just assume for at least 2-3 minutes after ‘death’ everything is functioning as it was in life. Most NDEs are over in much less time then that.

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Also, what do you think of the eastern philosophies? Like we discussed the western but the east hold interesting ones aswell, like Buddhism for example. (plus if we have ET's they might have some too grin )


I think this is a rather large question Tongue. I think early eastern and western philosophies were built upon assumptions of an understanding of the world peculiar to the mindset of that time. Our understanding of the world (and the universe) is so radically different to what it was back then, that we near enough live in another ‘reality’ to what our ancestors did.
 We can learn a lot from these philosophies, and I think these philosophies discovered a lot about our bodies and mind (but due to their mindset, they imbued them with mystical meaning – such as perhaps the chakra system having links to the endocrine system – and mathematics used to be sacred etc), but I don’t think we should attempt to integrate them with our current mindset, as it is very different to what theirs was.
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Donal
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« Reply #51 on: March 30, 2006, 15:01:21 »

People can have NDE's aswell walking down a street aswell, and in many other places. It is not limited to just dying, and I think some people may have NDE's later than others while dying.

You have a good point about when should we be classified as dead, when does the brain stop functioning normally. We'll have to find out when the brain stops producing clear experiences, like an NDE, and if an NDE occurs before or after this. though people who experience NDE's do have no sense of time, so there mind might be in a "non locality zone" (as quantum physics puts it).

Also, this is a quote about NDE's from Dr Peter Fenwick: (a neurologist)

"The brain isn’t functioning. It’s not there. It’s destroyed. It’s abnormal. But, yet, it can produce these very clear experiences ... an unconscious state is when the brain ceases to function. For example, if you faint, you fall to the floor, you don’t know what’s happening and the brain isn’t working. The memory systems are particularly sensitive to unconsciousness. So, you won’t remember anything. But, yet, after one of these experiences (a NDE), you come out with clear, lucid memories ... This is a real puzzle for science. I have not yet seen any good scientific explanation which can explain that fact."

(taken from http://www.near-death.com/experiences/lsd04.html)
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« Reply #51 on: March 30, 2006, 15:01:21 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Tombo
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« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2006, 11:07:41 »

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 I agree. But so far logical thinking has provided us with what you see around you now (including the PC we are using to discuss) whereas belief and experience which can’t even remotely be consistently shared with others has just brought us personal experiences and little more. I don’t think sciences view is inherently materialistic as much of what science works with today is definitely not material, and was outside the scope of scientists a few hundred years ago.


Certainly I'm not agains logic it's great. What I mean is just that we are dealing with the mind itself here. Maybe i can put it this way: Logic is just a aspect of the mind ( for example feelings, perceptions etc are also part of the mind but are outside of logic) So therefore I suspect that with logical thinking alone we won't understand the mind, it is just my theorie though.





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I agree. But this is the same for the view that the mind is more than the brain. It’s a meme which has spread down the ages with nothing to substantiate it (other than personal experience – which is not conclusive in itself) – yet it is used as an argument point.


Well it is not a theorie that the mind is more then the brain, it seems like a fact to me. the brain is matter the mind is Not matter, this two are hard to fit together no matter how you turn it. How can an electric impulse generate a self/mind etc?



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What I meant is that we could create an infinite amount of reasons for anything if we don’t require any form of reproducible, substantial proof to back it up. But this doesn’t mean any reason we create has any form of reality outside of ourselves.


I agree. But do include  things such as meditation or Buddhism as "science of the mind" it is also reproducible. substantial proof? well maybe not in the way you mean but having dircet experiences in the mind is more substantial to me then any "outside" proof.


 
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I’m not sure I agree with this, as until recently, western culture was no different in believing more duellist views of mind/brain. I think this is partly due to indoctrination of such beliefs (as happens now) and little to no knowledge about the brain at all.
 For example, if we had no knowledge of the functions of the brain, I think we all would view consciousness as more than matter produced. Its only the recent cutting edge science of the brain which has made us start to question this.


I agree

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If I hadn’t read all the things on neurology that I have (things which have shown their worth through medical procedure saving countless lives), then I would still happily be holding a duellist view of reality. Now I am uncertain, so I question.


I understand. kepp in mind though that we can also put things to good use without really understanding them. what I mean is that we can manipulate things without the need to truely understand them. for example I can create a airplane using the laws of newton. This plane will ( or better probably won't  cheesy ) fly although the laws used are in fact false. The newton laws are not completly correct the Einstein quations are more correct. So what I try say is that the fact that we understand somethings and put them to good use (e.g. Computer, neuroscience) doesn't mean we truely understand the real essence of them.



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I agree. The idea that we are products of our brain is quite horrific really – but I guess I want to learn ‘the truth’ regardless of my fears.




Recently I come to the conclusion that it is maybe not that horrific. Do we really understand what matter is? I don't think so. Current theorie I thinks is  strings (consisting of what?!) vibrating in  multidimensional space. I wonder what the theorie is in 50 Years..... So in way we do not know what matter actually is so in that way we do not really know what this neurons in the brain actually are. Maybe they indeed produce the mind but maybe the mind and matter are two sides of the same coin. maybe as we learn more we will realize that matter is frozen thought or something like that and the horror will be gone. Just my theorie again.



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I somewhat agree. A scientific theory generally has to be reproducible to be accepted as accurate, and if a scientific theory was produced which could explain and reproduce something we once took to be paranormal – would this be science ‘explaining away’ the phenomenon, or would it be science actually finding an explanation other than ‘ours’ for the phenomenon?


 if science finds good explanations thats great. I don't think there is science and then there is Paranormal stuff and one destroys the other. there is just one world. as science evolves it will cover more and more paranormal things, thats what I believe and i think that is great. But I think science has to open up. intensify the research in areas like OBE NDE Telephaty with an open mind and our knowledge grow.

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I think it comes down to me wondering why, if I have projection experiences, they have to mean life after death, they have to mean I have energy bodies, I have chakras, that I am an inhabitant of an astral world currently inhabiting a belief system to learn lessons etc. I know none of this directly, so why should I just buy into it without question?


True, I agree with you. I don't buy into it that is far certain. But I try to keep an open mind maybe it is true.

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(For me at least, it just doesn’t ‘feel’ right). I only experienced ‘the vibrations’ before I read about all this stuff, and it wasn’t until I started to believe about ‘silver cords’ etc that I actually saw them. My experiences before that had nothing of the sort. So it seemed to suggest my increasing belief in these philosophies was actually creating them, rather than them being inherently true.


Very well possible. This may teach that the experiences are greatly influenced by ourselfs. A insight impossible to find with common science but nevertheless very important would you say?


 
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This is why I want to strip away the dogma and unfounded belief (in me at least) and really see what is there – look at things without even deep unconscious programming getting in the way.


I agree. But is seems possible to me that for example the believe in brain, science etc and the doubt in Soul ,Chakras , Astralplaes ect may also shape your experiences and impede any direct knowledge of this things. It is really hard to get a completly open mind (also when projecting) at leats for me it is. I strongly feel that my own fear and believes (which are strongly logic and science based, as I studie physics) compromise my astral experiences. a catch 21  :confused:

regards Tom
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Donal
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« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2006, 18:41:01 »

Is there anymore news about the brain functioning well evens week after no EEG activity is present?
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Donal
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« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2006, 20:07:09 »

Appearently the brain is still functioning properly even on a flat EEG. (according to Master Jingo)
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« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2006, 20:07:09 »



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listener
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« Reply #55 on: April 04, 2006, 21:42:34 »

That was fascinating. I appreciate the view that we can't prove this is real, and in fact by confirming circumstantial commonalities such as '3D blackness' and 'vibrations', we could as much be recognising a neurological phenomenon as a 'paranormal' one.

I am equally aware of the habit people have of 're-interpreting' their experiences in terms of what they've learned, but there are common factors here, that's undeniable.

The thought occurs though that this is not a common skill; it has not been practiced by the general public throughout the ages -at least not in a deliberate fashion, as it takes instruction and awareness to do that. It was previously the domain of spiritualists and shamanic types. Information on this has never been shared in such a widespread fashion before -I myself only developed any experience in it through encountering information about it.

These techniques may have been practiced for thousands of years, but they've only been shared communally very, very recently. I can say one thing; awareness of methods definitely increased my ability to do this (and I'm not one of these people that labels every weird or lucid dream as 'astral'). I read a bit about it, and focused upon improving my skills in it, and it seemed to work.

So, is it not possible that this is a technique that has not yet matured; that people practicing it have not had time to truly exploit it on any level which would allow for definitive 'proof'? Maybe it's only been mastered by a few, but I think the greatest potential for validity lies not in the 'astral', but in the real-time zone.

My view is: If you can freely project yourself into reality, and float around doing whatever you like, you can take steps to prove what's going on.

I'm rubbish at the real-time zone stuff. I find I can't see what's going on, and can only feel the environment of the room, walls and cold surfaces etc. I'm not as good as some.

But those who can do it can surely focus upon attaining proof of their experiences. I think it's pretty essential that this is a main aim of projectors, almost a responsibility in fact.

If they can do it, why aren't they proving so?
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MisterJingo
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« Reply #56 on: April 04, 2006, 21:46:11 »

Quote from: listener
That was fascinating. I appreciate the view that we can't prove this is real, and in fact by confirming circumstantial commonalities such as '3D blackness' and 'vibrations', we could as much be recognising a neurological phenomenon as a 'paranormal' one.

I am equally aware of the habit people have of 're-interpreting' their experiences in terms of what they've learned, but there are common factors here, that's undeniable.

The thought occurs though that this is not a common skill; it has not been practiced by the general public throughout the ages -at least not in a deliberate fashion, as it takes instruction and awareness to do that. It was previously the domain of spiritualists and shamanic types. Information on this has never been shared in such a widespread fashion before -I myself only developed any experience in it through encountering information about it.

These techniques may have been practiced for thousands of years, but they've only been shared communally very, very recently. I can say one thing; awareness of methods definitely increased my ability to do this (and I'm not one of these people that labels every weird or lucid dream as 'astral'). I read a bit about it, and focused upon improving my skills in it, and it seemed to work.

So, is it not possible that this is a technique that has not yet matured; that people practicing it have not had time to truly exploit it on any level which would allow for definitive 'proof'? Maybe it's only been mastered by a few, but I think the greatest potential for validity lies not in the 'astral', but in the real-time zone.

My view is: If you can freely project yourself into reality, and float around doing whatever you like, you can take steps to prove what's going on.

I'm rubbish at the real-time zone stuff. I find I can't see what's going on, and can only feel the environment of the room, walls and cold surfaces etc. I'm not as good as some.

But those who can do it can surely focus upon attaining proof of their experiences. I think it's pretty essential that this is a main aim of projectors, almost a responsibility in fact.

If they can do it, why aren't they proving so?


Hi listener,

You make some very good points, especially in regards to it being a maturing body of knowledge. I agree with what you say.
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listener
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« Reply #57 on: April 04, 2006, 22:32:51 »

I should add that I'm not in the habit of believing in things because I want to. It's a very irrational way to go, and just because AP and OOBE aren't real, it doesn't necessarily imply that the afterlife isn't either. Just one possible validator.

Still, do you not wonder about realtime zone projectors? I do, I'm curious as to why people with such an amazing power haven't validated their experiences. Perhaps they exaggerate the lucidity of the experience, and in fact they lack the control they'd need to validate it. I can say that the nearest I've had to realtime was like being a pinball bouncing around the room blindly. It's hard, if it's real.
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