The Astral Pulse
News: http://www.astralpulse.com/aup.html. Acceptable Use Policy for the forums. Please read and ensure that you respect these policies. Thank you.

Please note that due to the amount of spam posts we have been receiving over the past few months, we have switched Registration to require you to be approved by a moderator.  We will go through the approval list as often as we can, but if it's been 24 hours and you haven't been Approved yet or you've received a rejection email, please email myself or one of the moderators immediately so we may correct the application.

We apologize for any inconveniences this may cause, but it's the last resort we have to fighting the spam for now.
 
*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register. December 15, 2017, 21:51:18


Login with username, password and session length


Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: "The Lucid Dream Pill"  (Read 5038 times)
RobertForsythe
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 135


View Profile Email
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2016, 23:28:10 »

I have a few minutes to reply...It's the one constant in discussion of these topics.  Nobody has the right answer, there are only beliefs and opinions.
Hence, there's nobody here who can stand up and say that they have "The truth", unless they're talking about "personal truth".

The Truth is vastly different from Personal Truth.
Language is physical in nature.  It breaks down as soon as you attempt to use it to describe non-physical experiences.
This is why there is such a disagreement between labels such as "astral projection", "lucid dreaming" and even "dreams".  
Give my book a quick read and you'll understand further.

To be honest, Xanth, that comes across as a little patronizing and condescending. But that's okay, I can handle it.

All I can say is that I disagree, some more.

"The Truth" is Truth and those who make genuine progress come to agreement on this. When a large team climbs a mountain those few who reach the pinnacle are in the same place. The many who only get halfway up can be very far apart. To say one climber's personal 'truth' is different from another climber's personal 'truth' is basically meaningless. The climbers at the peak are in agreement about Truth and they are in disagreement with those in a different spot, down the mountainside. Also, the halfway up bunch might be either together or very far apart... but they are all far from the peak/Truth.

I think the main reason that there is so much "disagreement between labels such as "astral projection", "lucid dreaming" and even "dreams" is because so many people with so little experience like to pontificate on the matter when they really know almost nothing about it. It is not just a matter of a difference of opinion. It is a matter of a very few knowing what they are talking about and a large mass of neophytes who have a few vivid dreams or get OBE a couple times and suddenly they act like they are some sort of expert on astral projection. But the problem is that they really and truly are genuinely wrong. I know you disagree with this but that is what I have discovered after decades of practicing and teaching and hundreds of projections to various levels of the cosmos.

For example, a popular notion that has gotten traction recently is that "astral projection", "lucid dreaming" and "dreams" are one and the same. I understand how easy it is to come to this conclusion. If 99% of people who get OBE never get to the true astral plane this is exactly what they will conclude. And for them it becomes true because they stop trying to reach the higher ethereal realms. (It still doesn't mean they are right).

Yes, someone linked to that site of yours yesterday and I read some of it.

“Dream Awareness” …… “Lucid Awareness” …… “Astral Awareness”

You do realize, don't you?... that is the basic framework of a hierarchical belief system that makes use of labels.
... just thought I'd mention it.
Logged
Xanth
Administrator
Astral Energy 5
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11145

Kitten of Terror says MEOW!!!


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2016, 01:16:55 »

To be honest, Xanth, that comes across as a little patronizing and condescending. But that's okay, I can handle it.
Why does what I say illicit feelings of "patronization" and "condescension" in you?

Quote
"The Truth" is Truth and those who make genuine progress come to agreement on this. When a large team climbs a mountain those few who reach the pinnacle are in the same place. The many who only get halfway up can be very far apart. To say one climber's personal 'truth' is different from another climber's personal 'truth' is basically meaningless. The climbers at the peak are in agreement about Truth and they are in disagreement with those in a different spot, down the mountainside. Also, the halfway up bunch might be either together or very far apart... but they are all far from the peak/Truth.

I think the main reason that there is so much "disagreement between labels such as "astral projection", "lucid dreaming" and even "dreams" is because so many people with so little experience like to pontificate on the matter when they really know almost nothing about it. It is not just a matter of a difference of opinion. It is a matter of a very few knowing what they are talking about and a large mass of neophytes who have a few vivid dreams or get OBE a couple times and suddenly they act like they are some sort of expert on astral projection. But the problem is that they really and truly are genuinely wrong. I know you disagree with this but that is what I have discovered after decades of practicing and teaching and hundreds of projections to various levels of the cosmos.

For example, a popular notion that has gotten traction recently is that "astral projection", "lucid dreaming" and "dreams" are one and the same. I understand how easy it is to come to this conclusion. If 99% of people who get OBE never get to the true astral plane this is exactly what they will conclude. And for them it becomes true because they stop trying to reach the higher ethereal realms. (It still doesn't mean they are right).
All you're saying here is that you don't believe the "new", "popular" notion that those labels are the same thing.  That's fine.  Nobody is demanding you believe those things.

See, now I think it's a silly notion to say that there's a "true" astral plane... compared to what exactly?  A false astral plane?
You can't ever know what someone else experienced.  Even if they provided a perfect description of what they experienced... you still wouldn't know. 
Why?  Because you can't have their experience.  You have NO IDEA WHAT-SO-EVER what they experienced. 
So for you to sit there and say that what someone experience WASN'T what they said it is... is laughable at best really.  Although, it certainly doesn't stop people from trying to do just that.

Here's another article I wrote on that subject:  http://www.unlimitedboundaries.ca/2011/09/02/addition-to-your-non-physical-perception/

In the end, your entire supposition is based upon the idea that someone out there has it "correct"; that someone out there knows "the TRUTH" about reality.
One day you'll learn this is a fallacy in regards to non-physical experiences and that the only truth is that "nobody knows the truth".
Comparisons such as you mountain one you spoke about are only valid within the confines of the same system (ie: comparing physical to physical).

Quote
Yes, someone linked to that site of yours yesterday and I read some of it.

“Dream Awareness” …… “Lucid Awareness” …… “Astral Awareness”

You do realize, don't you?... that is the basic framework of a hierarchical belief system that makes use of labels.
... just thought I'd mention it.
You missed the point of the article.  It's an exercise in explaining why labels are ultimately useless in the attempt to define our non-physical experiences.
They're all, ultimately, the same experience.  There is no such thing as a "lucid dream", "astral projection"... or even "dreams".  What we humans call "dreaming" is an experience that doesn't exist.

So what does exist?  What exists is an experience which happens in a reality identified (during or after) as not being this physical reality where you have a varying level of awareness.  That level of awareness is really what defines the experience, not that it's very important... but for those who use and enjoy those labels, that's what it is. 

As I said though, some people enjoy using labels.  Some people will take a long time to break free from that kind of linear thinking, so the article also provides them something to grasp onto which comes as close as I can get to being a label-less ideology.  I try to encourage people to step out of that box though.  I encourage them to try and see consciousness and reality as a more fluid, non-linear experience and that this physical reality is part and parcel of that experience too.  Taking that perspective shifts the very idea of what an astral projection even is. 

The ultimate goal being changing the concept in someone's mind from astral projection being something you DO, to a state of mind you ARE.  You don't DO astral projection.  You ARE astrally aware.  Then it doesn't matter what reality you're in, you have a frame of reference.  Right now, for example, you're having an astral awareness experience in this physical reality.  When you fall asleep at night and have what we humans call a "dream", you're not "dreaming" (because that's an experience which doesn't objectively exist) you're having a dream awareness experience in a reality which isn't this physical reality.  It's all relative to "here". 

Eventually you'll figure out that even the terms "physical" and "non-physical" are horrible labels as well... and eventually break down when you dig deeper into them.  There's really no such thing as a "physical" vs "non-physical" reality.

But now I'm rambling.  Feel free to ignore me at this point.  Smiley

Logged

The Astral Pulse
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2016, 01:16:55 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

 Logged
RobertForsythe
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 135


View Profile Email
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2016, 02:16:07 »

Why does what I say illicit feelings of "patronization" and "condescension" in you?
All you're saying here is that you don't believe the "new", "popular" notion that those labels are the same thing.  That's fine.  Nobody is demanding you believe those things.

See, now I think it's a silly notion to say that there's a "true" astral plane... compared to what exactly?  A false astral plane?
You can't ever know what someone else experienced.  Even if they provided a perfect description of what they experienced... you still wouldn't know. 
[....]
Eventually you'll figure out that even the terms "physical" and "non-physical" are horrible labels as well... and eventually break down when you dig deeper into them.  There's really no such thing as a "physical" vs "non-physical" reality.

But now I'm rambling.  Feel free to ignore me at this point.  Smiley

Thanks for playing the straight man, Xanth!

 "Eventually you'll figure out..." is a very good example of one of your patronizing and condescending comments.  cheesy

To make a long reply short I will just say, imagine me doing a line by line quote of every sentence of your post here and me saying, "false...false...false...false...."
I basically disagree with everything you said.

There really are ways of identifying if someone has truly visited a place. If there is a place called "Hawaii" and someone describes it as a desolate place of dry sand that stretches for a thousand miles -- well it is easy to conclude he wasn't really experiencing Hawaii.

There really are some universal telltale markers for the astral plane and the mental plane, and the realms beyond duality.

What I mean by "true astral" is not as opposed to false astral... unless we can call a bright, crisp, vivid experience of the RTZ, "false astral" -- then yes... that *is* what I mean.

Hmmm, let's see if I can reply to you on your own terms NLP-style;

Eventually Xanth, you'll actually start getting OBE on a regular basis and maybe actually reach the true astral plane and then you will figure out that Robert was right all along.

How's that? (See what I mean when the shoe is on the other foot?)  Wink


« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 02:46:01 by RobertForsythe » Logged
Xanth
Administrator
Astral Energy 5
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11145

Kitten of Terror says MEOW!!!


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2016, 03:23:14 »

Thanks for playing the straight man, Xanth!

 "Eventually you'll figure out..." is a very good example of one of your patronizing and condescending comments.  cheesy

To make a long reply short I will just say, imagine me doing a line by line quote of every sentence of your post here and me saying, "false...false...false...false...."
I basically disagree with everything you said.
Whatever floats your boat.  Wink

Quote
There really are ways of identifying if someone has truly visited a place. If there is a place called "Hawaii" and someone describes it as a desolate place of dry sand that stretches for a thousand miles -- well it is easy to conclude he wasn't really experiencing Hawaii.
But see, now you're trying to use something "physical" and trying to use it to make a non-physical comparison.  It doesn't work.
Take the "Astral Pulse Island" for example...
There are lots of people, even today, who think they've visited "THE" Astral Pulse Island... but did they?  How do they know?
They saw a beach probably, they might have even seen a pyramid... is that a good enough description that tells you 100% that they were experiencing THAT specific Island? 
No, it's not. 

6 years ago, I made this post:  http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_spiritual_evolution/what_i_think_is_true_and_youre_dumb-t30656.0.html;msg255544#msg255544
Now, follow that thread through.  At the time I didn't understand the concepts of "an objective reality" vs "a subjective reality".
"no_leaf_clover" was kind enough to explain things, which I then brushed off at the time (sorry NLC!  Smiley).  I look back on that thread now and get a good chuckle of just how ignorant I was.  6 years on now and I understand now why that apple isn't an apple and never will be an apple.

THAT is why I say that, even you too, will understand eventually.  It's the natural progression of understanding... especially for people who are so hooked on labels and a hierarchical view of reality.  Eventually that concept breaks down when you dig deep enough into it.  Again, take that however you want.  I learned a long time ago to not be held hostage to OTHER people's emotions. 

Quote
There really are some universal telltale markers for the astral plane and the mental plane, and the realms beyond duality.

What I mean by "true astral" is not as opposed to false astral... unless we can call a bright, crisp, vivid experience of the RTZ, "false astral" -- then yes... that *is* what I mean.

Hmmm, let's see if I can reply to you on your own terms NLP-style;

Eventually Xanth, you'll actually start getting OBE on a regular basis and maybe actually reach the true astral plane and then you will figure out that Robert was right all along.

How's that? (See what I mean when the shoe is on the other foot?)  Wink
See, this is what I mean... there actually AREN'T "tell tale signs"... there are only beliefs you have which you've self-reinforced through other beliefs.
The day you realize that everything you know is only a belief/opinion is the day you'll realize another personal truth.

But meh... for now, I'm off, because it's clear you're not interested in doing anything other than pandering to your ego.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 04:44:34 by Xanth » Logged

AndrewTheSinger
Astral Energy 5
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1000

25752195
View Profile WWW
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2016, 04:05:30 »

For example, a popular notion that has gotten traction recently is that "astral projection", "lucid dreaming" and "dreams" are one and the same. I understand how easy it is to come to this conclusion. If 99% of people who get OBE never get to the true astral plane this is exactly what they will conclude. And for them it becomes true because they stop trying to reach the higher ethereal realms. (It still doesn't mean they are right).
   
I can relate both to what Xanth is saying and what Robert is saying, although I accept the consensus here that whenever you go to sleep you become aware of and experience things in the astral plane.
 
How do I differentiate an astral projection from a lucid dream? How I got there. The beginning of a lucid dream may be difficult to remember, and I can be anywhere, usually in the middle of a story. My astral projections start from where my body is laying asleep, so I'm usually moving away from bed and exploring the astral version of my house. There's no story going on and I can decide where to go and what to do, or at least try. In lucid dreams, even when I'm very lucid, I'm still dealing with the situations presented by the dream, so in theory my choices are limited.
 
I explore the possibility that there are no places in the astral realm, and that you can be anywhere and anywhen, given you know how to do that. Been lucid dreaming since I was a child, so I have 30 years of experience with conscious dreams, and started astral projecting in adulthood, about 16 years ago. Not trying to brag about it but my best experiences were unspeakable and I don't feel like telling anyone about them, but when compared to the worst ones, the only thing that makes them better is their content, visually they are of the same quality. If they were movies you would simply find them under different genres in a store.
 
I'm curious to hear about your experiences in the higher ethereal realms and how you describe the place.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 04:39:17 by AndrewTheSinger » Logged

Where does this silence come from?

The untold past of the Earth: http://hiddenhistory.awardspace.com
The Astral Pulse
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2016, 04:05:30 »



 Logged
RobertForsythe
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 135


View Profile Email
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2016, 04:50:41 »

Whatever floats your boat.  Wink
But see, now you're trying to use something "physical" and trying to use it to make a non-physical comparison.  It doesn't work.
Take the "Astral Pulse Island" for example...
There are lots of people, even today, who think they've visited "THE" Astral Pulse Island... but did they?  How do they know?
They saw a beach probably, they might have even seen a pyramid... is that a good enough description that tells you 100% that they were experiencing THAT specific Island? 
No, it's not. 

6 years ago, I made this post:  http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_spiritual_evolution/what_i_think_is_true_and_youre_dumb-t30656.0.html;msg255544#msg255544
Now, follow that thread through.  At the time I didn't understand the concepts of "an objective reality" vs "a subjective reality".
"no_leaf_clover" was kind enough to explain things, which I then brushed off at the time (sorry NLC!  Smiley).  I look back on that thread now and get a good chuckle of just how ignorant I was.  6 years on now and I understand now why that apple isn't an apple and never will be an apple.

THAT is why I say that, even you too, will understand eventually.  It's the natural progression of understanding... especially for people who are so hooked on labels and a hierarchical view of reality.  Eventually that concept breaks down when you dig deep enough into it.  Again, take that however you want.  I learned a long time ago to not be held hostage to OTHER people's emotions. 
See, this is what I mean... there actually AREN'T "tell tale signs"... there are only beliefs you have which you've self-reinforced through other beliefs.
The day you realize that everything you know is only a belief/opinion is the day you'll realize another personal truth.

But meh... for now, I think I've wasted enough time on you, because it's clear you're not interested in doing anything other than pandering to your ego.

Wow.
Xanth says to Robert; " I've wasted enough time on you, because it's clear you're not interested in doing anything other than pandering to your ego".

But Robert is the one who is disrespectful. Even though Robert asked Xanth for an example of disrespect in his posts and received none. While Xanth asked Robert for examples of patronizing and condescending examples of Xanth's posts and Robert immediately provided such. And here Xanth takes it even further and resorts to outright insults/putdowns.

Will any of the other moderators here have the courage to step up and inform Xanth he is out of line?

Is there a double standard here?
Logged
RobertForsythe
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 135


View Profile Email
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2016, 05:12:14 »

   
I can relate both to what Xanth is saying and what Robert is saying, although I accept the consensus here that whenever you go to sleep you become aware of and experience things in the astral plane.
 
How do I differentiate an astral projection from a lucid dream? How I got there. The beginning of a lucid dream may be difficult to remember, and I can be anywhere, usually in the middle of a story. My astral projections start from where my body is laying asleep, so I'm usually moving away from bed and exploring the astral version of my house. There's no story going on and I can decide where to go and what to do, or at least try. In lucid dreams, even when I'm very lucid, I'm still dealing with the situations presented by the dream, so in theory my choices are limited.
 
I explore the possibility that there are no places in the astral realm, and that you can be anywhere and anywhen, given you know how to do that. Been lucid dreaming since I was a child, so I have 30 years of experience with conscious dreams, and started astral projecting in adulthood, about 16 years ago. Not trying to brag about it but my best experiences were unspeakable and I don't feel like telling anyone about them, but when compared to the worst ones, the only thing that makes them better is their content, visually they are of the same quality. If they were movies you would simply find them under different genres in a store.
 
I'm curious to hear about your experiences in the higher ethereal realms and how you describe the place.

Hi Andrew. I can relate to your comments and I have a similar view of Dreams vs AP. The manner of entry and exit means something to me.

I am very quick to relate my RTZ travels but more reluctant to share true astral journeys and less motivated to share details of travels above that realm. I often find that OBE envy gets the better of the forum veterans and things often go downhill fast.

I will think about how to proceed from here and reply shortly... maybe in a PM.
Logged
Xanth
Administrator
Astral Energy 5
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11145

Kitten of Terror says MEOW!!!


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2016, 05:26:44 »

Wow.
Xanth says to Robert; " I've wasted enough time on you, because it's clear you're not interested in doing anything other than pandering to your ego".

But Robert is the one who is disrespectful. Even though Robert asked Xanth for an example of disrespect in his posts and received none. While Xanth asked Robert for examples of patronizing and condescending examples of Xanth's posts and Robert immediately provided such. And here Xanth takes it even further and resorts to outright insults/putdowns.

Will any of the other moderators here have the courage to step up and inform Xanth he is out of line?

Is there a double standard here?
I'll just quickly point out, you're right, and it was changed before you even made your post.
I'm not that cold hearted that I can't admit when I'm wrong.  Smiley  Please accept my apologies.

Your turn now.  Smiley

NOTE: Next time if you have any concerns with ANYTHING anyone (including myself or another moderators) says... please don't post it on the public forums.  PM someone, if it's about me, then PM another Moderator.  They will be more than happy to assist and bring you concerns to the group.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 05:36:12 by Xanth » Logged

RobertForsythe
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 135


View Profile Email
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2016, 05:37:54 »

I'm curious to hear about your experiences in the higher ethereal realms and how you describe the place.

Andrew, you made a comment that made me think of this experience;

Last week I was in a dream where two demons descended on an Asian village where I was visiting. We all ran into a house and shut the doors and windows. The demons began pounding on the walls and then suddenly a young boy was sucked out through the walls. I thought, “What?! That's enough of that!" And I became Lucid and flew out through a wall and pushed one fist outstretched forward and one down by my side Superman style and flew twice around the building. The demons beat a hasty retreat.

I then wanted to morph the LD into a full blown OBE.

I flew straight up and entered a misty realm of Light. I then raised both my hands directly over my head and pounded my fists together and a crack of deep thunder rumbled far and wide.

The mist cleared and I was now looking up upon a vast sea of calm water (it was upside down).
I flew up to the water and pushed my hand through and felt around a bit and I could feel a lotus flower and I could sense there were many, many flowers all around as though it were a Flower World on the other side.

Then my attention was disrupted by a disturbance in this physical reality... my wife was making a ruckus and wanted me to get up and on with the day... which I did.

Nota Bene;
This was not a pure projection into the astral realm but I suspect it was close.
Logged
madmagus
Astral Energy 1
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 39


View Profile
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2016, 06:35:19 »

Since the OP has devolved into a Big Truth/Small Truth thingy, I felt compelled to throw in my two cents.

Truth is always subjective, no matter the topic.  This is as close as I get to a Big Truth.  The only people whom I've ever met who were certain beyond doubt that they knew The Truth were religious zealots at one end and materialist scientists on the other.  One end of the Truth Spectrum deals with purely belief-based, subjective truth, though they won't admit it; the other end deals with objective, material observation that requires subjective interpretation (theories), that they won't admit to.

Such a tangled web.

Logged
RobertForsythe
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 135


View Profile Email
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2016, 07:07:06 »

Since the OP has devolved into a Big Truth/Small Truth thingy, I felt compelled to throw in my two cents.
[....]Truth is always subjective, no matter the topic.  This is as close as I get to a Big Truth. 

What if the topic is mathematics?

[and how does "Big Truth/Small Truth" discussion constitute devolution?]
Logged
Xanth
Administrator
Astral Energy 5
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11145

Kitten of Terror says MEOW!!!


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2016, 07:18:56 »

What if the topic is mathematics?

[and how does "Big Truth/Small Truth" discussion constitute devolution?]
The apple doesn't exist.

Until you realize WHY the apple doesn't exist... you'll never understand the rest.
Logged

RobertForsythe
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 135


View Profile Email
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2016, 08:18:06 »

The apple doesn't exist.
Until you realize WHY the apple doesn't exist... you'll never understand the rest.

"you'll never understand the rest"

In the School I was trained in NO ONE has the right to say such a thing to another Soul.

No one.
Logged
Aaron330
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 248



View Profile Email
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2016, 08:53:20 »

Wow, things have gotten quite intense in here lol.

Took the pills again last night and had another lucid dream. This time it was much longer. When I first woke up mid sleep to the loud noises, I realized it was time to roll out of body, but it felt like the energy level was weak. I was trying to roll out and flailing around, but it felt like I was stuck in goop, like that scene from the Matrix. Then I got out and began flying around and shooting energy beams at evil alien space ships and all sorts of crazy battles.

Eventually it actually got boring. I got tired of flying around in this dream world and felt like I had exhausted all my options. I wanted to go somewhere else and do something different, but I didn't know how. I remembered to try rubbing my hands together and I did, but it didn't seem to increase the lucidity of the dream.

The lucid dream went on forever, and eventually morphed into a regular dream that was quite intense and exciting, and lasted a very long time.

I woke up feeling exhausted mentally. I felt like I had lived an entire life time in that dream. Any ideas on how I can increase my lucidity/awareness next  and try traveling somewhere else?
Logged

It's hard to say that I'd rather stay awake when I'm asleep; because my dreams are bursting at the seams.
madmagus
Astral Energy 1
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 39


View Profile
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2016, 09:23:46 »

First, great job.  Just the fact that you had a long experience, and an exciting one it sounds like, is a great result. 

I'll make a quick suggestion now.  If you run with too many potentials in your head, you can get jumbled up.  If you are not as lucid as you'd like to be, or as you think you are, thinking of too many things will just distract you and tumble you into a NLD.

So.  Personal flavor.  Become still in the lucid.  Demand 'awareness', 'clarity', 'control.'  Wait a moment for things to stabilize.  Now, use your intention to move to a new environment that you designate.  If nothing happens, create a door or portal in front of you.  Tell yourself that when you step through that you will arrive at the new location.  Sometimes creating this moment of discontinuity within your environment is enough.

Before getting too many techs in your head, give that a go.  Or choose another of your liking.  Just remember that everything is thought responsive, from object creation to movement.
Logged
madmagus
Astral Energy 1
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 39


View Profile
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2016, 09:45:36 »


In the School I was trained in NO ONE has the right to say such a thing to another Soul.

No one.

If nothing else, Robert, you've done a superior job highlighting for everyone which end of the spectrum you fall on.  Further, it saddens me that you haven't the critical capacity to understand why I say that the OP has devolved. 

I apologize Aaron330 for my part in said devolvement.
Logged
madmagus
Astral Energy 1
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 39


View Profile
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2016, 10:05:35 »

What if the topic is mathematics?

Robert, do you have even the vaguest idea how much of mathematics is theoretical?  How much of science is theoretical?

Oh, dear.  Perhaps the problem is other than I thought.  On that thought, just to make sure mind you, I should probably go on record and say that if I have been inadvertently conversing with a minor that I apologize for any perceived rudeness.  I wouldn't change any of my statements, but I might have been less blunt about making them.  There, now.  That's out of the way.  

Your turn, Aaron330.  Give us another update to break the soul-crushing tension, pun intended.  
« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 10:07:15 by madmagus » Logged
Szaxx
Global Moderator
Astral Energy 5
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4968


View Profile Email
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2016, 11:26:52 »

Having so little time available at present the OP although not my cup of tea, should be allowed to continue unabated. Although some very interesting ideals and perceptions are within the 'off topic' discussion these should be removed and another topic on the percieved truth should be initiated. As I've had over 50 years of various experiences with not even a single post anywhere on the web mentioning some of these, I can relate to the off topic content.
As a reminder of keeping the site free from OP disruption which isn't always easy, the above suggestion would be appropriate.
I have respect for ALL members and any new ideas and knowledge is always welcome, anything presented will be scrutinised based on the accepted general consensus which in my personal opinion is flawed the same way as at the turn of the last century, it'd be a wise and educational topic for all to participate in.
Differences of opinions can then be addressed in a polite and acceptable manner to hopefully progress our understanding on what we're dealing with re conciousnes and its associated attributes regards to the astral subjectivity.

Logged

There's far more where the eye can't see.
Close your eyes and open your mind.
AndrewTheSinger
Astral Energy 5
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1000

25752195
View Profile WWW
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2016, 11:30:11 »

We know the astral is where concepts can become reality, like the Astral Pulse Island. It is as real as a song, conceived and 'recorded' to be experienced with one sense, but not as real as Hawaii, that you can visit and experience with all senses. However, many of us have had confirmations that there is also an objective aspect.
 
The Greeks talked about the gate of ivory and the gate of horn, through which dreams could come and present reliable information (horn gate), or unreliable information (ivory gate). Premonitory, revelatory and all kinds of helpful dreams are no illusions. Those who like science should know that important scientific discoveries were made when the researchers were asleep. The structure of the atom envisioned by Niels Bohr, and the periodic table devised by Dmitri Mendeleev are good examples of that.
 
Now when it comes to describing higher planes of existence, if evidence cannot be presented, it is always up to the reader to decide how much one is willing to accept as possible.

Nota Bene;
This was not a pure projection into the astral realm but I suspect it was close.
   
On a side note, something that could seem terrifying to some, but we are explorers who like to learn, right (?), is a concept I've read in Japanese mythology, the existence of false paradises in higher realms. Here's an excerpt from the book Tourists in Paradise - Writing the Pure Land in Medieval Japanese Fiction:
 
Imposter Pure Lands are a significant danger for Pure Land Buddhist devotees in medieval Japanese fiction. [...] the Buddhist guardian deity Bishamonten in his previous human existence encounters no less than three false paradises, two of which are claimed to be "the Pure Land," in the course of his own Grand Tour through hell and the outer cosmos. The Prince avoids them thanks to the bodhisattva Jizo, whom he meets beside the Sanzu River in the Land of the Dead, and who warns him to beware.
 
Abstract
Late-medieval Japanese fiction contains numerous accounts of lay and monastic travelers to the Pure Land and other extra-human realms. In many cases, the "tourists" are granted guided tours, after which they are returned to the mundane world in order to tell of their unusual experiences. This article explores several of these stories from around the sixteenth century, including, most prominently, Fuji no hitoana sōshi, Tengu no dairi, and a section of Seiganji engi. I discuss the plots and conventions of these and other narratives, most of which appear to be based upon earlier oral tales employed in preaching and fund-raising, in order to illuminate their implications for our understanding of Pure Land-oriented Buddhism in late-medieval Japan. I also seek to demonstrate the diversity and subjectivity of Pure Land religious experience, and the sometimes startling gap between orthodox doctrinal and popular vernacular representations of Pure Land practices and beliefs.
 
What do you think about this idea?
Logged

Where does this silence come from?

The untold past of the Earth: http://hiddenhistory.awardspace.com
WhiteMonkey
Astral Energy 1
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 34


View Profile
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2016, 13:21:44 »

First of all thank you Robert and Xanth for your long discussion. At least I learned some new things from it. It made this topic long and losing its focus but I enjoyed to follow your discussion cause you both stand for your point of view that makes it very interesting for me.


I'll make a quick suggestion now.  If you run with too many potentials in your head, you can get jumbled up.  If you are not as lucid as you'd like to be, or as you think you are, thinking of too many things will just distract you and tumble you into a NLD.

So.  Personal flavor.  Become still in the lucid.  Demand 'awareness', 'clarity', 'control.'  Wait a moment for things to stabilize.  Now, use your intention to move to a new environment that you designate.  If nothing happens, create a door or portal in front of you.  Tell yourself that when you step through that you will arrive at the new location.  Sometimes creating this moment of discontinuity within your environment is enough.

This is a great idea. You could also focus on something for a short time like your hands. And instead of creating a door just go through a door which is already there and focus on the location you want to be in.




How could you be sure that any of these paradises are the real one? Each one of them claims that for itself. I find they are more like places created by astral beings in whatever mindset. Many people get 'lost' there for a period of time cause they think this is heaven, instead of being totally free. But most of them need to get 'lost' there for their journey to continue.


Hope this makes sense. All the best
Logged
Szaxx
Global Moderator
Astral Energy 5
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4968


View Profile Email
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2016, 15:44:27 »

We know the astral is where concepts can become reality, like the Astral Pulse Island. It is as real as a song, conceived and 'recorded' to be experienced with one sense, but not as real as Hawaii, that you can visit and experience with all senses. However, many of us have had confirmations that there is also an objective aspect.
 
The Greeks talked about the gate of ivory and the gate of horn, through which dreams could come and present reliable information (horn gate), or unreliable information (ivory gate). Premonitory, revelatory and all kinds of helpful dreams are no illusions. Those who like science should know that important scientific discoveries were made when the researchers were asleep. The structure of the atom envisioned by Niels Bohr, and the periodic table devised by Dmitri Mendeleev are good examples of that.
 
Now when it comes to describing higher planes of existence, if evidence cannot be presented, it is always up to the reader to decide how much one is willing to accept as possible.
   
On a side note, something that could seem terrifying to some, but we are explorers who like to learn, right (?), is a concept I've read in Japanese mythology, the existence of false paradises in higher realms. Here's an excerpt from the book Tourists in Paradise - Writing the Pure Land in Medieval Japanese Fiction:
 
Imposter Pure Lands are a significant danger for Pure Land Buddhist devotees in medieval Japanese fiction. [...] the Buddhist guardian deity Bishamonten in his previous human existence encounters no less than three false paradises, two of which are claimed to be "the Pure Land," in the course of his own Grand Tour through hell and the outer cosmos. The Prince avoids them thanks to the bodhisattva Jizo, whom he meets beside the Sanzu River in the Land of the Dead, and who warns him to beware.
 
Abstract
Late-medieval Japanese fiction contains numerous accounts of lay and monastic travelers to the Pure Land and other extra-human realms. In many cases, the "tourists" are granted guided tours, after which they are returned to the mundane world in order to tell of their unusual experiences. This article explores several of these stories from around the sixteenth century, including, most prominently, Fuji no hitoana sōshi, Tengu no dairi, and a section of Seiganji engi. I discuss the plots and conventions of these and other narratives, most of which appear to be based upon earlier oral tales employed in preaching and fund-raising, in order to illuminate their implications for our understanding of Pure Land-oriented Buddhism in late-medieval Japan. I also seek to demonstrate the diversity and subjectivity of Pure Land religious experience, and the sometimes startling gap between orthodox doctrinal and popular vernacular representations of Pure Land practices and beliefs.
 
What do you think about this idea?

Excellent informative post, I can't but think how much of this is related to shamanistic use of supplements?
Time has provided many views on the art and over the centuries many changes have been made to what's acceptable
Logged

There's far more where the eye can't see.
Close your eyes and open your mind.
RobertForsythe
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 135


View Profile Email
« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2016, 20:23:02 »

If nothing else, Robert, you've done a superior job highlighting for everyone which end of the spectrum you fall on.  Further, it saddens me that you haven't the critical capacity to understand why I say that the OP has devolved. 

I apologize Aaron330 for my part in said devolvement.


Madmagus, What spectrum are you referring to?
And you didn't answer the question. It was not a matter of simple 'devolution' but specifically concerning Big Truth/small truth.
Finally, it sounds a little like you were making an arrogant condescending comment there about my critical capacity -- which I suspect you nothing about.
Logged
RobertForsythe
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 135


View Profile Email
« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2016, 20:29:36 »

Robert, do you have even the vaguest idea how much of mathematics is theoretical?  How much of science is theoretical?

Oh, dear.  Perhaps the problem is other than I thought.  On that thought, just to make sure mind you, I should probably go on record and say that if I have been inadvertently conversing with a minor that I apologize for any perceived rudeness.  I wouldn't change any of my statements, but I might have been less blunt about making them.  There, now.  That's out of the way.  

Non sequitur. "Theoretical" was not in question.
"conversing with a minor" ?...?
Was that another condescending put down? (What is going on here?)
Logged
RobertForsythe
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 135


View Profile Email
« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2016, 20:43:20 »

We know the astral is where concepts can become reality, like the Astral Pulse Island. It is as real as a song, conceived and 'recorded' to be experienced with one sense, but not as real as Hawaii, that you can visit and experience with all senses. However, many of us have had confirmations that there is also an objective aspect.
 [....]
 What do you think about this idea?

Yes, the idea of False heavens is commonly taught.

This is why some Schools forbid astral projection among the devotees until they have become firmly established in the realms beyond duality.
Logged
RobertForsythe
Astral Energy 3
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 135


View Profile Email
« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2016, 21:22:58 »

How could you be sure that any of these paradises are the real one? Each one of them claims that for itself. I find they are more like places created by astral beings in whatever mindset. Many people get 'lost' there for a period of time cause they think this is heaven, instead of being totally free. But most of them need to get 'lost' there for their journey to continue.

Hope this makes sense. All the best

Yes, of course it makes sense. It is part of the early instruction in most Consciousness 101 classes.

Both you and Andrew have brought this up but I am not sure what might have been said here to make it relevant to anything. (?)

It might be stemming from the "the apple doesn't exist/it is all illusion/its just data" rut that so many aspirants get stuck in. A miniature false paradise even. I am reminded of the story about a monk leading his disciples in a meditation and then asking what they experienced and a few reported feeling relaxed, others peace, etc. Then one got very pensive and in an air of wonder announced he realized that "all is illusion". At that the monk reached out and slapped the disciple across face as hard as he could, and he asked, "How does that illusion feel?".

This whole impermanence/its just data thing needs to be kept in perspective.


Logged
The Astral Pulse
   



 Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums


The Astral Pulse Copyright © 2002 - 2014
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS! Dilber MC Theme by HarzeM