what focus level was i in? astral projection/dream?

[blidge]

Hi all, i want some feedback on my experience, here goes.

I became aware that my astral body was at exit point within my physical, so i rolled out onto the bedroom floor with a mild thump and tried to make my way to my bedroom door. Having had some good experiences over the last 6 months or so and wanting to go through my bedroom wall into the back garden as opposed to going through my bedroom door i made my way to my wall, but as im trying to progress i feel like my feet are in tar so i ask for clarity now and power now. I immediately ask for clarity now and energy/power now so everything is clear and easier etc.

I make my way to the wall and cannot pass through it, it feels solid but i think i should be able to pass through so i turn around and head to my door. I grab the door handle and the door opens. Make my way to one of my bedrooms and walk towards the window, it looks different. Still aware that im having an AP i think, i try and go through the window. I push the curtain to the side and climb through the window (what is my focus level now) and find myself outside my mothers house( location change).

Lots of people are walking up and down the street on both sides, i want to visit a friend who ive told in waking life ill try and go see her so i ask for my spirit guide, i have to ask four times before a child just appears infront of me, i say hi and acknowledge her. She tells me her name is Zoe, i ask her," can we go and see my friend Ang"? she says," yes", i reply," and can we fly there"? she replys, "no, i cant". I then become suspicious, so i ask her to tell me something that i dont already know,i dont know why i asked that. i wanted to know if it was my spirit guide, a figment of my imagination or a malevolent being of some sort. She then says," well i know that your a Capricorn", but before she could finish i said,"no im not, im a pisces" which i am.

I told her to go away and tried to will her away but she wouldn't go. i tried to summon some power to help me but at that point things just faded.

Then i had a false awakening, i was back in bed, rolled out again but the covers and floor felt all to real, as if it was real, but it was a dream? or was it?

Any feedback much appreciated thanks       

[Rudolph]

Sounds like a typical, regular exit to RTZ type OBE to me.

Just curious? How often do you do the rollout?
The first time I did it I hit the floor with a mild thump. Second time a soft thump. Third and fourth time I stopped falling and floated about halfway to the floor. Ever since, I just rollout and float beside the bed.

I hope reading about other people's modus operandi gets me in a mode where I just start talking to strangers and asking them stuff. Normally I go straight for my desired destination... which is also okay and has often led to good results... but I really am curious now about just chatting and talking to a possible Guide... that would be interesting to try, I think.

[blidge]

Hi, thanks for the feedback, every time ive had an ap obe in the last 8 months or so ive always rolled out. Sometimes its with a thump and other times its soft and cushioned.

From posts on pulse i understand that its a difference of frequency from a full RTZ experience to partial AP in the RTZ,. The dream aspect seem to seep into this experience, something that i tried to turn around to a full RTZ.

Is this a coincidence but when ive had my experiences ive usually had a drink the same night, some wine then go to bed and have an experience. Not all the time but it doesn't stop me having AP's. My question still is though what focus level was i on? the same or did/does it change in the same experience?

 

[Rudolph]

My question still is though what focus level was i on? the same or did/does it change in the same experience?

stupid focus levels... who knows... they make no sense for the most part.

In my career I have held highly technical positions and drawn large salaries at more than one company to build analysis structures around disciplined recording methods and I have created extremely complicated systems to evaluate complicated structures in this physical world and I can say without a doubt that these OBE focus levels that these goofs keep blabbering about are worthless at best (imho) 

Some poorly contrived and badly conceived focus level does not change the quality of your experience at all.

[Xanth]

Hi, thanks for the feedback, every time ive had an ap obe in the last 8 months or so ive always rolled out. Sometimes its with a thump and other times its soft and cushioned.

From posts on pulse i understand that its a difference of frequency from a full RTZ experience to partial AP in the RTZ,. The dream aspect seem to seep into this experience, something that i tried to turn around to a full RTZ.

Is this a coincidence but when ive had my experiences ive usually had a drink the same night, some wine then go to bed and have an experience. Not all the time but it doesn't stop me having AP's. My question still is though what focus level was i on? the same or did/does it change in the same experience?

 

You're kinda mixing systems here...

Robert Bruce is the one who came up with the term "real time zone".
Robert Monroe devised the "Focus Model".  Later followed up by Frank Kepples Focus Model of Consciousness (oC).

Monroe and Bruce's models aren't quite interchangeable.

The closest you can come between the two is that Robert Monroe used to use his "Locale" model.  In which traversing this physical reality while in an obe state, he'd call "Locale 1".
I'm not sure what he'd call that in Focus-terms.

I'm not quite in agreement with Rudolph that they're "worthless".  They certainly do have their worth as a meter-stick of sorts.  But, I do agree kinda in that our non-physical explorations are unique and personal to ourselves so you can really only use these models as a loose reference only.  They're not to be taken literally.  You'll eventually want to move away from any "model" that you read from someone else in favour of beginning to create your own model which is usable ONLY by you in reference entirely to you.

EDIT: Added quote for clarity of whom I'm responding to. 

[Rudolph]

You're kinda mixing systems here...

No, I'm not. Not even a little bit.

Monroe and Bruce's models aren't quite interchangeable.

No one said they were.

I'm not quite in agreement with Rudolph that they're "worthless". 

That's not what I said.

I think I indicated that they were worse than that, as in, worthless at best - i.e. they do more harm than good.
Please muster the courage to quote me exactly and reply to what I actually said, Ryan.
(tough fer a lefty, I know,  but I have high hopes....)

[todd421757]

I am in agreement with Rudolph on the focus levels.

I went back and looked into Monroe's second book "Far Journeys". He states (towards the beginning of the book) his OBE techniques stopped working on him. He could not achieve anymore the OBE's he had in his first book. It is hard for me to believe the focus levels should be taken seriously when Monroe couldn't even have an Etheric Projection anymore.

H.P. Blavatsky had the exact same problem as Monroe. Her first book "Isis Unveiled" had much information on OBE phenomena. Her last book "The Secret Doctrine" had none of the OBE information. She then came up with the seven planes of existence and other questionable theories. She just like Monroe had lost the power of real-time OBE's and decided to come up with new questionable theories that may or may not exist.

[Xanth]

No, I'm not. Not even a little bit.

Sorry Rudy, I was addressing blidge in my post.  I should have pointed that out or added a quote. 

I am in agreement with Rudolph on the focus levels.

I went back and looked into Monroe's second book "Far Journeys". He states (towards the beginning of the book) his OBE techniques stopped working on him. He could not achieve anymore the OBE's he had in his first book. It is hard for me to believe the focus levels should be taken seriously when Monroe couldn't even have an Etheric Projection anymore.

H.P. Blavatsky had the exact same problem as Monroe. Her first book "Isis Unveiled" had much information on OBE phenomena. Her last book "The Secret Doctrine" had none of the OBE information. She then came up with the seven planes of existence and other questionable theories. She just like Monroe had lost the power of real-time OBE's and decided to come up with new questionable theories that may or may not exist.

Monroe didn't release his focus model until his third book.  I'm assuming then you're referring to his Locale model from his earlier two books.  He indeed had to drop the locale model, I don't remember exactly why though, it was a while ago I read the books.

In either case, they (focus and locale models) worked quite well for Monroe "at the time".  The simple fact that he had to change things up eventually (presumably when he discovered Phasing), doesn't make them worthless.  They were quite the stepping stone for Monroe.  You'll also eventually have to make changes to your projection practices if you wish to progress further.  Or you might not.

In any case, from the perspective that all of this is unique and personal to you... it's very much worthless.  Do what YOU feel is best.  Not what someone else has found to be best for them.

[todd421757]

Xanth,

You brought up some good points, which I tend to agree with.

I just have a fear that in a few decades, etheric projection will be unknown to most people. Most obe related website nowadays are exclusively talking about lucid dreams, phasing, and chakra related practices. There is very little information left online about etheric projections that were experienced by our founding pioneers.

I know some people will say that Monroe and others were spiritually evolving (increasing vibrational frequency), and that is the reason they can't do real-time OBE's anymore. They have stepped to higher spiritual projections. Some may even make the false claim that etheric projection is a lower vibrational frequency projection, and they have evolved beyond that projection.

If they are so highly evolved, then how can they still function in their dense physical body upon waking (which is a much lower vibrational frequency body than the etheric body)?

[Xanth]

I definitely get what you're saying, but I don't think that's something you need to worry about. 

"Humans" will *ALWAYS* be having what you're calling an Etheric Projection.  I believe this is because most people think this reality is all that exists.
For the times when a human finds themselves conscious in the non-physical... I'd tend to think that "most" of the time it takes on the form of an etheric / rtz projection.

I personally don't think "etheric projections" are something fundamental (in that I don't think they objectively exist).  But that's a discussion for another thread.  lol
I'm more interested in non-rtz projections, simply because I spend the vast chunk of my time in this physical reality... I don't want to waste the precious non-physical time I do have here.  I believe this reality is more about our interactions with each other than it is about experiencing it from the non-physical perspective.

[Boom]

Sounds like a pretty amazing astral projection if you ask me.   I would not concern yourself too much with focus levels.  I think in an astral sense, especially at the beginners stage the whole thing will get wishwashed up anyway.  RTZ projections with added stuff from your own mind and spirits from further afield will all come together.

I loved the question you asked that little girl...  shame she didnt come back with an answer for you.   If you see her again find out as much as you can about her.. name, age, if she's still alive etc..

[Rudolph]

Sorry Rudy, I was addressing blidge in my post.  I should have pointed that out or added a quote. 

Oh, okay. It was the "I'm not quite in agreement with Rudolph that they're "worthless".  " part that made me think you were replying to me.

But back to the topic. I think the OP here is a good demonstration of why these Focus level schema are counter-productive. They are confusing to most and from what I see they pigeon hole the interpretation of experience among the few who think they do understand them.

I am very much intrigued by Todd's proposal here about the "Etheric" projection.

[Xanth]

I'll explain why I like the focus levels... at least for beginners, because yes, I do agree that eventually you'll want to ditch them in favour of a system that works best "for you".

Basically, they give a great meter stick for people just learning.  The increasing focus levels, at least the early levels (Monroe F3, F10, F12, F21) *SEEM* to be fairly accurate amongst a wide range of individuals.  Will it ALWAYS work that way for EVERYONE?  Definitely not, but it at least gives you a very general idea of where you're at in terms of early progression.

However, there is the inclination with some individuals to take it literal and put all their eggs in one basket... these are the kinds of people who will have some troubles with the Focus model.  This is where a problem can begin.  However, if you just take it with a large grain of salt, it's a very good system for showing "early" progression into the non-physical.

[blidge]

I loved the question you asked that little girl...  shame she didnt come back with an answer for you.   If you see her again find out as much as you can about her.. name, age, if she's still alive etc..

Yes i will ask the question if i come across her again, but these experiences come every now and again. unlike my many fellow astral travellers out there and on this site, my astral travels are very intermittent and can and do happen randomly. when i do have an experience i usually go with this script i.e. clarity now, energy now and then get away from my physical body, get outside of the home and ask for my spirit guide and fly in that order, ideally anyway.

[blidge]

I'll explain why I like the focus levels... at least for beginners, because yes, I do agree that eventually you'll want to ditch them in favour of a system that works best "for you".

Basically, they give a great meter stick for people just learning.  The increasing focus levels, at least the early levels (Monroe F3, F10, F12, F21) *SEEM* to be fairly accurate amongst a wide range of individuals.  Will it ALWAYS work that way for EVERYONE?  Definitely not, but it at least gives you a very general idea of where you're at in terms of early progression.

However, there is the inclination with some individuals to take it literal and put all their eggs in one basket... these are the kinds of people who will have some troubles with the Focus model.  This is where a problem can begin.  However, if you just take it with a large grain of salt, it's a very good system for showing "early" progression into the non-physical.

Its only recently that i have been curious what focus levels i have been at, so from my experience what focus level(s) would you say that i was at and at what point? for me its a mixture as i wasn't able to command or be in the same control as i have been in earlier projections, just curious that's all if you know.

thanks

[blidge]

Thanks everyone for the feedback, plenty to think about any ways. 

[Contenteo]

Blidge   
That was a prime example of a full fledged standard F21 experience.

Fully in the astral, but at the lower levels so your reality is a reflection of your most prominent mental models. It appears to be your home and neighborhood, but on further inspection we see slight defects. These are all telltale signs of F21.

In this light it is easy for any newcomer to mistake this zone as 'RTZ', when it is only a duplicate of the 'RTZ'. An age old, Looks like a orange, smells and tastes like an orange, then it must be an orange, causal reason fallacy.


Cheers,
Contenteo

"Before you call something stupid, please realize that stupid is simply a lazy man's term for something that doesn't properly fit into your mental model of the world. And that is the worst because we all admit that, it takes many models to grasp a solid picture of any concept of reality.
Egotism has been the Achilles heel of many capable and brilliant men."

[Rudolph]

In this light it is easy for any newcomer to mistake this zone as 'RTZ', when it is only a duplicate of the 'RTZ'. An age old, Looks like a orange, smells and tastes like an orange, then it must be an orange, causal reason fallacy.

 

A "duplicate" RTZ?

So now we have to invent a new type of RTZ in order to make an experience fit the Focus models?

I dunno.... Does anyone else think this is maybe getting a little ridiculous?

[todd421757]

A "duplicate" RTZ?

So now we have to invent a new type of RTZ in order to make an experience fit the Focus models?

I dunno.... Does anyone else think this is maybe getting a little ridiculous?

There is only one RTZ in my opinion for genuine OBE's. There is no such thing as a duplicate RTZ. The defects and variations people see in the RTZ are from the consciousness losing focus and slipping into a dreamlike state. It is not a problem within the RTZ. It is a problem with the projector thinking he can prolong the experience and travel a longer distance. This will always lead to dreaming within an OBE.

There are never any defects in the RTZ when I stay projected in my bedroom. The defects start when I leave my room, and they get much worse when I project outside my house.

[Rudolph]

There are never any defects in the RTZ when I stay projected in my bedroom. The defects start when I leave my room, and they get much worse when I project outside my house.

This opposite for me. Something is usually different in the room but then I go outside, do the "clarity now", and the house and yard and most other things match the physical world closely. But not always.

[todd421757]

This opposite for me. Something is usually different in the room but then I go outside, do the "clarity now", and the house and yard and most other things match the physical world closely. But not always.

That is interesting. Do you have fast OBE exits (shot out like a cannon through the top of the head) or slow ones (rollout and liftout). I noticed my quicker exits match my experiences I wrote above. My slower exits (rollout) seem to match yours.

[Contenteo]

That's because where you end up from the two exits are two different focus levels of the astral. The rollout is usually always a F21, then you can climb higher from there using intent. The cannonball usually ends you in a BST (belief system territory) of some sort.

Cheers,
Contenteo

[todd421757]

Thanks Contento for the reply. What is the belief system territory? I never heard of it before, but it sounds interesting. 

[Rudolph]

Do you have fast OBE exits (shot out like a cannon through the top of the head) or slow ones (rollout and liftout).

I do both. But lately more the slow rollout and liftout.

[Contenteo]

The way I like to think of the focus levels is on a scale of how disconnected you are from the physical.

The deeper you go, the more 'disconnected' you are. Monroe sequences this with F3, going upwards, etc. Like any scale you have to analyze it and be able to quickly put things into perspective in your head.

F24,25,26 (which are not to much further after F21 you see) are what Robert Monroe dubbed the BSTs. IMO, this is where the Monroe model starts getting vague. But then again, I haven't spent a long time in BSTs and it's confusing delineating between the three(24,25,26). I feel the previously serial circuit of focus levels turns into a parallel one at this step. Making any attempt to use the previous measuring method fairly obsolete. Hence many trained projector's distaste for this perspective.

BSTs are groups of people/souls/spirits -overall astral entities- that have passed on and live in communities based on their belief constructs. i.e. Heaven, Valhalla, a remote island dream resort. Whatever one wants to make their environment look like in the afterlife. Yes, projecting is the same thing that happens when you die. But thats for another thread. As people accept death and realize that can instantly manifest their surroundings it makes sense they seek out 'souls' (for the lack of a better word) with the same tastes and exist in environments together. It seems one can also make environments for the purpose of hosting event/parties. Because these areas have a level of useful duplicability, one could also throw these under BST, although they are are functional then beleif structure based.

I am sure you have been to one of these places before, people commonly stumble upon them when dreaming, but then just lump them together with the concept of dreaming. A more well versed projector can tell the difference where they are pretty easily but looking of the complexity of their environment around them. i.e. How detailed it is, (could I have created all this detail on my own?) how many entities are there? (could all these entities be figments of my imagination, is my brain strong enough for that) In addition, I can't explain it all that concisly, but BSTs have a 'feel' to them that you just get used to. The most definable example I can give you, is that when interacting with other entities, you can get hit with hefty doses of PUL(pure unconditional love), which feels great.

If you can internalize this model, then you can better put your own experiences into perspective.

Here, this is a concise read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focus_level

Cheers,
Contenteo