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Author Topic: Are you saying there's no justice?  (Read 3545 times)
son of light
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« on: January 07, 2008, 15:05:33 »

Hi!  Happy New Year; new here. I've been reading your article about phasing.  Its interesting but what struck me is the absence of justice.  What happens to people like suicide bombers who kill a mass of people but strongly believes they will be rewarded by some god?  Will they live out their belief in your focus 3?

How about people who have caused genocide believing they were doing god's will?

After living out their believed reward in focus 3, what then?  Bad Karma in focus 1?  That's an injustice.

Where's the justice?
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CFTraveler
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« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2008, 23:28:08 »

Hi!  Happy New Year; new here. I've been reading your article about phasing.  Its interesting but what struck me is the absence of justice.  What happens to people like suicide bombers who kill a mass of people but strongly believes they will be rewarded by some god?  Will they live out their belief in your focus 3?

How about people who have caused genocide believing they were doing god's will?
Not if you look at it from a spiritual perspective:  The only part of you that could in any way believe that God would want you to commit such atrocities would be the ego, and not even a healthy ego at that.  The part of you that has any transcendence at all would in no way believe it was ok to do it- it would actually agonize over what it had done, even if there were any possible way that it was necessary for any type of 'big picture' reason that we cannot fathom.  So, the part of the person that would survive physical death, would be it's transcendent part, it's soul, who would have to relive the pain it caused, since nothing happens separately from it.  It would feel every part of the suffering it caused.  And if there was any part of the deluded soul that couldn't grow from that, then it's guilt would make it reenact all kinds of nightmarish scenarios, which would produce the kind of self-created hell projectors have witnessed and report.

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After living out their believed reward in focus 3, what then?  Bad Karma in focus 1?  That's an injustice.

Where's the justice?
'Justice' is a man-made concept.  But I believe there is, nonetheless.
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« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2008, 23:28:08 »

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son of light
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« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2008, 06:29:01 »

Not if you look at it from a spiritual perspective:  The only part of you that could in any way believe that God would want you to commit such atrocities would be the ego, and not even a healthy ego at that.  The part of you that has any transcendence at all would in no way believe it was OK to do it- it would actually agonize over what it had done, even if there were any possible way that it was necessary for any type of 'big picture' reason that we cannot fathom.  So, the part of the person that would survive physical death, would be it's transcendent part, it's soul, who would have to relive the pain it caused, since nothing happens separately from it.  It would feel every part of the suffering it caused.  And if there was any part of the deluded soul that couldn't grow from that, then it's guilt would make it reenact all kinds of nightmarish scenarios, which would produce the kind of  hell projectors have witnessed and report.
 'Justice' is a man-made concept.  But I believe there is, nonetheless.
So, if its the ego, why are there even hollow heavens at all?  No human is free of guilt.  There's a seperate set of rules for those who committed atrocities who believe they are doing God's work? huh
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CFTraveler
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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2008, 21:23:47 »

So, if its the ego, why are there even hollow heavens at all?  No human is free of guilt.  There's a seperate set of rules for those who committed atrocities who believe they are doing God's work? huh
I don't understand the question, especially these two parts:  "why are there even hollow heavens at all?" I don't understand the reference.  And "No human is free of guilt"- I don't understand this one either.  When I speak of guilt, I speak of guilt about something wrong that was done that caused someone else to hurt in some way.  So I don't understand this answer.

About the 'two separate sets of rules', do you mean the 'belief caused hell' versus the 'guilt caused hell'? I don't see them as separate, I see them as versions of the same thing.  You believe that the afterlife is like this, you create it until you don't need to anymore, you die feeling guilty about something you did, you experience it, and then create what you think you deserve for it.  How is this different?
I may not be understanding your distinction.
About people who die thinking they were doing something good but in fact it was evil, I don't think this happens.  I think they realize they were wrong, and the guilt they feel makes them realize their expectations-hell.
How long they stay there is the question, and I don't know if time is a valid concept in the afterlife.
I think I understand the 'hollow heaven' question- I think if you die in grace, that is, knowing you did what you were supposed to do, even though your idea of heaven may be culturally based, your state of grace is real.  So you do bask in some sort of Glory state, and perhaps attain the ability to transcend the need to incarnate.  But this is a big guess.
So, In other words, I believe in heaven as a state we all get to, I don't believe in hell in anything other than a step (or stumble) on the way to get to heaven.  I don't see it as a reward/punishment, but as a result of a natural progression.  What it is, only God knows.
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kiwibonga
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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2008, 02:15:16 »

There is no justice, because there is no justice needed. We are born innocent... The people who really should pay for mass murder are not the people who did it, but the people who, throughout the mass murderer's life, conditioned that person in such a way that somewhere down the line, they committed these horrific actions.

But why did these people condition that mass murderer? Simply because they themselves were conditioned, from their innocent newborn state, into becoming evildoers.

If you think about it, not a single person on earth is truly evil, they were just trapped in a life path that lead them to evil. I don't want to get into the whole concept of fate; whether there is such a thing as destiny or not is irrelevant, it's just a matter of what happens when you introduce a blank slate into an environment, and how that blank slate will react from there on.

Does it really matter if someone thinks they did a good thing by killing thousands of people? Or if someone thinks they did a good thing by stealing from the rich and giving to the poor? Or crushing a bug? Or not eating meat?

At the end of the line, it's just a matter of being right or wrong. If everyone who's ever been wrong had to go to hell... Well.. Let's not even go there!
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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2008, 02:15:16 »



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ariesr
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« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2008, 20:16:01 »

There is no justice, because there is no justice needed. We are born innocent... The people who really should pay for mass murder are not the people who did it, but the people who, throughout the mass murderer's life, conditioned that person in such a way that somewhere down the line, they committed these horrific actions

I think some form of categorization of the variables that led up to the event (i.e. murder) should be taken into account?

Upringing (Real or Foster)
Peer group pressure (through the persons' life)
and so on....

There are many environmental variables, and the other variable that doesnt appear to be considered is Choice.

Choice is made depending on current information at the time, personality etc.....

And there are consequences to making those choices. Someone has to take responsibility. It is possible to choose NOT to do something, no?
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kiwibonga
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« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2008, 02:25:01 »

It's possible to choose not to do something, yes, but a choice is an indirect consequence of environmental variables... You make choices using your own common sense, which came about through your life experience. If the environment either did not tell you what was right or wrong, or put you in such emotional distress that you either could not see wrong in murder or could not think straight enough to avoid the horrific situation, then you will make "the wrong choice."

Take a suicide bomber as an example: you live in a country that hates america... You live in poverty, in a country that has almost no future, that was ravaged by wars and taken over by the US and Russia... Everyone around you burns american flags, and screams out "death to america" every chance they get... You get taught Islam, but in a different way from the rest of the world. Your village turns out to be a terrorist camp, and everyone's idea of good is going on a holy crusade, dying in the name of God so that you may go to heaven while the terrorists lords will give large amounts of money to the rest of your family. You will be a savior, a hero. That is an extreme example, with a few exaggerations, but that's the gist of it. This terrorist seems insane to the rest of the world, but in his own mind, what he's doing is perfectly normal. In his mind, it's only natural to take revenge on those that have wronged him, on those that supposedly crippled his country into a state of constant poverty.

When that guy makes the choice to go out and blow himself up in the middle of a crowd in Israel, it's not because he is an evil person who knows he's doing something bad. He's not doing this for the sake of being bad. He's doing this for good, because it will bring happiness to everyone he has ever known, because he will die in glory, by taking action.

You can see how it's not really his choice. He wasn't taught to carefully research ethics before he went out on his mission. He was just taught to have a one track mind...

Serial killers are often found to have had some kind of trauma in childhood, something that changed them very much, in such a way that they acquired a perverted desire to kill, or a false sense of justice.


The current understanding of the primary stages of the afterlife is as a place of healing. Murderers don't get punished -- their victims find healing. Every wrong is righted in this way, in such a way that punishment is not needed. Punishment does not solve anything besides create more pain. The logical way to balance things out is to free everyone of the "bad" that has been done. This doesn't necessarily mean the victim will pardon his killer, it means the victim will not be affected by the pain of dying at the hands of the murderer. This also means that the victim's family, who mourned his death for years, will find relief in the afterlife. When people are healed, they are able to cope with the fact that their life didn't go the way they wanted to (which is far from being a rare occurrence!).

Whether the murderer wisens up is a separate concern -- it's all part of his personal evolution. Perhaps killing people taught him something useful. Perhaps later he will be recycled into a life where he suffers at the hands of a mass murderer. Perhaps then he will get a different sense of justice.

One thing that is important to remember is that no human is perfect... The very purpose of this existence is probably to be imperfect. We are part of a constantly renewing cycle of destruction and rebuilding. Pain and suffering are actually important motors in our evolution. Whether we become a guru that is perfectly in tune with his higher self's plea and achieves a Greater Purpose, or simply live life through physical processes, at the mercy of our "destiny," we have achieved what we came here to do, no matter how disappointing it can seem from our human point of view.
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Greytraveller
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« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2008, 05:23:19 »

CFTraveler
your quote
Quote
About the 'two separate sets of rules', do you mean the 'belief caused hell' versus the 'guilt caused hell'? I don't see them as separate, I see them as versions of the same thing.  You believe that the afterlife is like this, you create it until you don't need to anymore, you die feeling guilty about something you did, you experience it, and then create what you think you deserve for it.  How is this different?

If I understand correctly then I like your idea. The idea that each individual evolves to a higher level of knowledge and undersatnding. In so doing then the old, outmoded ideas and thoughts can be discarded because they are no longer needed. Eventually even the most deep seated feelings and biases may be discarded if experience and knowledge warrant it. That would be the basis for enlightenment.

Sincerely
Grey  cool
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Urantia
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« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2008, 02:20:56 »

I think this is one of the secrets of the universe that is infinitely changing, if there were a set a rules to justice...there would only be one rule and its ultimate destiny applies to all living creatures. but if there is a second, there is then a third,forth then the list goes infinite, so we will never know probably until we are somehow on a higher spiritual plane of existence, maybe different universe's have completely different justice settings..if there is justice in the mortal universe's there might even be some form justice in the higher spiritual universe worlds, if that concept applies there..but i think it does, because if there wasn't for idea's like justice and fate and destiny, then there would be some kind of dead end. I'm sure Justice,fate, and destiny probably evolves to another idea or concept in the spiritual worlds that most mortals do not understand until they are there..but I'm sure it picks up to something else there and so on and so on, the answer probably is justice is served, but then its not..honestly i don't want to know if justice is served. I just think the answer is yes, no, & maybe..
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