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Author Topic: Dreaming of Lucid Dreaming  (Read 5387 times)
Xanth
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« on: May 07, 2012, 02:21:37 »

Ok, I'm having a discussion about this particular topic on another forum and I'd like some input here.  They're trying to explain the concept to me, but it's simply not making any sense.

To me "dreaming of lucid dreaming" is an experience that simply can't exist, because once you become aware that you're dreaming, it's no longer a "dream" and is now a "lucid dream".
Does this make the same sense to anyone else as it does for me?  That you're either aware that you're dreaming (lucid dream) or you're not aware that you're dreaming (dream)?

Can someone attempt to explain this "dreaming of lucid dreaming" phenomenon to me please?  LoL
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Major Tom
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« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2012, 02:44:22 »

The semantics are important here.

The statement "to be aware of lucid dreaming" confuses the issue.

I am aware of my non-lucid dreams, whenever I remember them, including during the time I had them, so that term is confusing.

The experience is valid however, which can be more accurately put as not having same mental clarity that you ordinarily associate with lucid dreams.

That still doesn't explain anything yet, but it gets you out of the semantic bind.

MT

« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 02:47:33 by Major Tom » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2012, 02:44:22 »

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« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2012, 02:46:42 »

I hate semantics.  Smiley

I'm beginning to think that's what it's boiling down to though... semantics and possibly people using slightly different definitions for some choice words.
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« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2012, 02:53:23 »

Semantics can be important, in terms of getting to the core of an issue, or at least the core of the problem.

In this case, it points to issue: "What is lucidity?

Or to put it in dialectical terms: " What is non-lucidity?"
 
The definition of "being aware that you are dreaming" doesn't really cut it down, because noone knows what awareness really means.

The term is practically synonymous with consciousness, and good luck with explaining that!

« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 02:56:39 by Major Tom » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2012, 03:06:10 »

Well what if we say "to realize that one is dreaming while the dream is happening"?

That's what "being lucid" means to me, at least.
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« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2012, 03:06:10 »



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todd421757
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« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2012, 03:25:32 »

Can someone attempt to explain this "dreaming of lucid dreaming" phenomenon to me please?  LoL

I have also wondered about this same thing.

I have had a few non-typical projections that I thought were failed attempts, but they may be explained by this dreaming of lucid dreaming phenomenon.

In each of these so called failed projections I had, the same exact sequence happened:

I would try to have a projection from the awake state. I would fall asleep (first fail). I then would later find myself lucid in a dream (partial success). I then would try to form a bed in my dream. Then I would attempt an exit technique in the dream (rollout, liftout, etc.). I would feel myself separate. The majority of the time, I would then project into the real time zone (success).

But there has been a few times, where I would not project into the real time zone. Instead, I would have an exit separation in the middle of the lucid dream which would then form another more realistic lucid dream in addition to the regular lucid dream. It is a very strange experience. I don't really know for sure what is actually going on in these few instances. But, I would like to find out the answer someday.

I did really enjoy those few times when this happened. It was very surrealistic. 
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« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2012, 05:20:35 »

Well what if we say "to realize that one is dreaming while the dream is happening"?

That's what "being lucid" means to me, at least.

That's the definition Stephen LaBerge popularized.

It actually dates back further than that, by Oliver Fox in who in 1962 referred to lucid dreams as "dreams of knowledge" - dreams in which you know you are dreaming.

And yet far before that, there was Frederick Van Eeden who coined the term lucid dream, and defined it has dreams with high mental clarity, similar to waking life.

The problem with the definition of LaBerge, as I seee it, is that lucidity is not solely defined by an awareness one is dreaming. I might call it an OBE for example, instead of a dream. LaBerge does not consider it a lucid dream in that instance.

It does not make sense to me.

But also, awareness and lucidity is far more complex than just a simple definition.

From an experiential level, it seems to have a lot to do with automatic and robotic behavior, where you can sometimes go through the motions, doing everything you ordinarily do during an OBE or lucid dream, but your mind is not entirely there.

Usually, upon waking up, people then wonder what the experience was all about.

You did mostly what you intended and planned to do, like during a regular OBE or lucid dream, and yet, it sort of felt non-lucid after the fact, almost like a regular dream, but yet not quite.

Conceptually, I think this is simply a case losing lucidity during an otherwise legitimate OBE, in an almost similar way that a non-lucid dream is also a legitimate OBE.

They are a bit more baffling, because you do seem act out everything you would expect from an OBE, which is not ordinarily associated with a non-lucid dream.

This is how it's best made sense off on a conceptual level I think.

To actually explain the phenomenon, is another matter. It gets complicated very quickly.

For example, DeGracia (with LaBerge) have proposed that perhaps lucidity is related to a continuity in memory with the waking self.

I think that makes sense to a degree, but perhaps not the entire answer.

I prefer to think of lack of lucidity as a dissociation between intent and perception, where almost anything goes in terms of perception, even while intent may remain constant.

In any case, it seems to be complex issue with mostly unsatisfactory answers sofar.





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12padams
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« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2012, 14:34:49 »

You just can't avoid my sensitive topic can you Xanth?

Yes, you can dream of lucid dreaming. It's simply a dream with the topic of lucid dreaming that lacks consciousness. Here is the list of things I have dreamt of within a dream of being conscious without consciousness... I like to called it simulated lucidity or a non-lucid dream with the topic of lucid dreaming:
(p.s. I call the dreamworld "the phase")

Got off computer chair and found myself in the phase
Rolled out of my body during sleep paralysis
Watched a video of a recorded phase experience
Mastered flying and translocation
Performed a WILD in a sleep research centre
Explored the phase with my friend Daniel (also lucid)
Tried out many different dream powers (mainly flying)
Attempted time travel with my parents
Awoke and performed a reality check
Met a teenager who said we had evil phase powers
Awoke but could still feel a phase object in my hand

None of those involved consciousness or awareness that I was dreaming even though each of those experiences were based on lucid dreaming or had the topic of lucid dreaming in them. There was no more consciousness then I have in normal dreams. I simply dreamt of being aware without being aware. You can read the full experiences in my book "Entering The Phase - A 17 Year Olds Journey". Go to the back and check out the "List of my simulated phase experiences" section to get they day reference then read the experience that corresponds to the correct day.

Remember always that you can dream of being aware all you want but it doesn't mean that you are. The only way to truly know if you were lucid is if you make a multistep plan in real life and carry it out within your dream. Also I hate the current definition of lucid dreaming because that's what is confusing you... Here is my new definition to fix the issue:

Old Definition: Knowing your dreaming within a dream
My Defintion: The same analytical conscious mind that is present during waking life becomes present during a dream.

Hope that new term gets it working for you Smiley

P.s I had a debate about this topic on dream views.com and I won! You can check that out here if you want:
http://www.dreamviews.com/f11/simulated-lucidity-dreaming-having-lucid-dream-128246/
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 22:54:10 by 12padams » Logged
Greytraveller
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« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2012, 19:35:32 »

Greetings all
Xanth, right, though we do not always agree this time I concur 100%. A person is either aware that they are dreaming or they are not aware. So once a person becomes aware that he/she is dreaming (at any level) then the experience becomes a lucid dream. This argument is More than just semantics because it is Logically correct whereas the opposite (ie it Not being a LD when one is aware of dreaming) is logically false. (BTW Any Logicians care to challenge that premise, it might be interesting? wink).
AND, while on the subject IMO this same premise also answers All of those (seemingly numerous) threads that are titled "Was this an OBE or a Lucid Dream?". Because again, if the person was not aware that he/she was dreaming then the experience, (By definition = semantics + logic) could NOT have been a Lucid dream.
Good thread Xanth

Regards  cool
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« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2012, 21:22:06 »

AND, while on the subject IMO this same premise also answers All of those (seemingly numerous) threads that are titled "Was this an OBE or a Lucid Dream?". Because again, if the person was not aware that he/she was dreaming then the experience, (By definition = semantics + logic) could NOT have been a Lucid dream.
Good thread Xanth

Yeah, when I read the opening question I was thinking this is sorta like the question of the decade and more 'research' and discussion will flesh it out a little better.

But in order to adhere to logic I think we must agree to definitions and what a word means and what a particular state is and it seems we haven't gotten there yet.

Yet, I think I think I know the condition that is being spoken of here and it is a mystery to me still and I need more experience to more confidently discuss it. I have had full blown OBEs that seem to take on dreamlike characteristics yet I still know I am OBE and I remain fully conscious upon return to the body. And I have LDs that turn into OBEs without vibrations or exit symptoms, but some that do, and I have other experiences I just have no classification for....

I have had some real doosies lately and I have not even emailed my closest old Seeker pals from the Old Surat Shabd days to even try to begin to describe them... I am not sure what to think or say about them.

?

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12padams
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« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2012, 23:19:27 »

Quote
this is sorta like the question of the decade and more 'research' and discussion will flesh it out a little better.
Make a multistep plan of action in real life and see if you carry it out perfectly within your next "conscious" dream. Trust me... My first book "Entering The Phase - A 17 Year Olds Journey" was about two things... Proving that the ability to become conscious in a nonphysical world existed and gaining the ability to determine the difference between simulated lucidity (dreaming of being lucid) and real lucidity (your conscious mind is actually awake in your dream and you recall your multistep plans then complete them.

Here is an example of a dream with the topic of lucidity which involved me performing the WILD technique but it was a normal dream since I wasn't actually conscious and didn't complete my plan of action that I had made at that time. This occurred on day 85 of my journey:

"Once asleep I had a non-lucid dream set in a sleep research centre. The scientists asked me to attempt a WILD (Wake induced lucid dream). After closing my eyes I eventually started to see fragments of hallways and rooms. Slowly the fragments became reality and I found myself deepening and maintaining the state.

Once everything became crystal clear I began to explore. There were a few doors randomly placed along the hallway leading to more rooms however they all seemed to be locked. As a result of this I decided to take the elevator in the middle of the hallway to the top floor. Due to memory gaps I am unable to remember the rest of the dream however I do remember meeting a few people in some of the rooms. Some of these people were vicious and crazy while others were peaceful and befriending.

At some point in the dream I remember reading a book and realising that the first sentence changed each time I read it. The sentence was in english and the words were readable but the sentences as a whole did not make sense."


See there we go! It's called simulated lucidity and I know it exists and have had great experience with determining the different between it and real lucidity. It's driving me insane trying to tell you guys about it but you never seem to "click". What about it do you not get? I am ready to post lots more of my simulated lucidity experiences if that's what you need... Just remember that they are all in my free ebook "Entering The Phase - A 17 Year Olds Journey". Go to the back and find "list on my simulated phase experiences". In your terms that what you would called "dreams of lucid dreaming" Here's the link but make sure download the right book (not teenage phase adventures, because it has only my conscious experiences in it):
http://forum.obe4u.com/index.php?topic=842.0

Feel free to ask me anything on this subject! I am the simulated lucidity expert and I have won debates on this in the past Smiley
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 23:22:46 by 12padams » Logged
todd421757
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« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2012, 23:28:09 »

12padams,

Can you make it into the real time zone if you wanted to, once you become fully conscious in a dream? If so, how do you do it?
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« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2012, 23:34:26 »

Ok, I'm having a discussion about this particular topic on another forum and I'd like some input here.  They're trying to explain the concept to me, but it's simply not making any sense.

To me "dreaming of lucid dreaming" is an experience that simply can't exist, because once you become aware that you're dreaming, it's no longer a "dream" and is now a "lucid dream".
Does this make the same sense to anyone else as it does for me?  That you're either aware that you're dreaming (lucid dream) or you're not aware that you're dreaming (dream)?

Can someone attempt to explain this "dreaming of lucid dreaming" phenomenon to me please?  LoL


Ryan,

At times when I have used this phrase myself, I am generally referring to a dream in which I am talking with someone else in the dream 'about' lucid dreaming.  I may even be teaching people how to lucid dream, or go out of body, etc.. but at no point in the dream do I ever actually become lucid.  For some reason it just doesn't get triggered, even though I am speaking on the subject.  So weird, it happens periodically enough for it to be a shame.

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« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2012, 00:03:46 »

Quote
At times when I have used this phrase myself, I am generally referring to a dream in which I am talking with someone else in the dream 'about' lucid dreaming.  I may even be teaching people how to lucid dream, or go out of body, etc.. but at no point in the dream do I ever actually become lucid.  For some reason it just doesn't get triggered, even though I am speaking on the subject.  So weird, it happens periodically enough for it to be a shame.
Congratulations, you've experienced, understand and accept simulated lucidity. You can dream of performing techniques to enter a lucid dream. You can dream of performing lucid dream control powers such as flying and walkthrough though walls. You can dream of performing a reality check which "triggers lucidity" without triggering actual lucidity. Even single time I have an experience I go to the back of my book and place it in either the "real" or "simulated" experiences section. Determining the difference is very important!

Remember simulated lucidity can still be useful because you may learn about how to perform dream powers by remembering how you did it within the simulated lucid dream once you woke it.

It's ok Xanth, I know this topic was hard to your to understand in the beginning but now Finnally you may master your understanding of it. It's real, I'm real, my experiences of it are real but the lucidity portrayed within them is fake. I really hope you will master the skill of determining the difference because it's a very valuable skill to have.

Good luck Xanth and everyone else still struggling with this concept. I hope you all learn from and understand simulated lucidity and can pass the message on in the future. If you want I can write an article on simulated lucidity with experience snippets and explanations and links to debates and heaps more... Then you can Pin/sticky it so its always understood in the future and this question never comes up again. It's something I have been wanting to do for a long time.

What we should do is have me write an explanation that is simple and fool proof. Then everyone can try to say "I don't get such as such" then I will modify it until everyone understand it. Once we have an explanation that you are all happy with pin it and I'll post it on other forums as well to get them up to date with simulated lucidity. I won't write it without your permission though Xanth so it's your call Smiley

Quote
12padams,

Can you make it into the real time zone if you wanted to, once you become fully conscious in a dream? If so, how do you do it?
I am an expert on and have lots of experience with simulated lucidity but when it comes to "the real time zone" and other dimensions I am low on experience/ex plaintion. Most people from spiritual forums.com say that all my conscious experiences are either in the lower astral or real time zone so yes I have been there but I haven't done research yet on the types of zones. I have felt differences and may be able to determine the difference between the real time zone and lower astral plane but I need much more experience before I can say anything.

In my next book I will be researching the difference zones/planes/dimensions and gaining the ability to determine which is which. Here's a little ex plaintion of my current books:

Entering The Phase - A 17-Year-Old's Journey: Exploring a variety of different techniques to enter a non-physical world and confirm its existence. I also determined the difference between simulated lucidity and real lucidity.
Phase Acquaintances - An 18-Year-Old's Non-Physical Social Life: Meeting nonphysical people that I have never seen in real life to analyse their behaviour and discover just how "real" they are. (currently being written).
Beyond The Phase - A 19-Year-Old's Unlimited World: Leaving the real time zone/etheric plane to enter higher dimensions such as the astral, mental, buddic, atmic and beyond. (possibly my next book yet not fully confirmed).

All of my free eBooks can be found here: http://forum.obe4u.com/index.php?topic=842.0
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 00:15:40 by 12padams » Logged
todd421757
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« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2012, 00:16:46 »

Will = consciousness. The more will you have the more conscious you are. Even if these simulated lucid dreams are found to be valid, I still wouldn't recommend mastering them. You are actually training yourself to be less focused and you may lose some of your will. As a result, you will lose your ability to perform anything that requires full conscious control.

12padams, you originally said you are focusing on proving the phase experience is a reality. How are you going to do that when you are focusing on simulations? Once these simulated experiences start to become frequent, your subconscious will accept this simulation as a consciously aware experience. You will then have difficulties with true projections with 100% conscious awareness with no blackout stage.
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« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2012, 00:25:43 »

Will = consciousness. The more will you have the more conscious you are. Even if these simulated lucid dreams are found to be valid, I still wouldn't recommend mastering them. You are actually training yourself to be less focused and you may lose some of your will. As a result, you will lose your ability to perform anything that requires full conscious control.

12padams, you originally said you are focusing on proving the phase experience is a reality. How are you going to do that when you are focusing on simulations? Once these simulated experiences start to become frequent, your subconscious will accept this simulation as a consciously aware experience. You will then have difficulties with true projections with 100% conscious awareness with no blackout stage.

Your missing the point. My mastery is not of having simulated experiences... It's of determining the difference between a simulated and real one. I make multistep plans and if I don't complete or attempt them then it's obvious I am experencing simulated lucidity!

I am attempting to prove that the phase/astral is more than a mind creation by performing experiments (multistep plans) which prove either connected consciousness or separate consciousness from my own. Right now I am trying to make contact with an entity that called themselves "the somebody" to get them to become my mentor within the astral. I met them a week ago and had a conversation with them over a phone intercom in the real time zone. They live in unit 2 of my apartment building and I don't know who actually lives there in real life. If I can continue my conversations with him and get him to show me around then hopefully I will be able to prove a few things. Maybe even look up the details he gave me astrally to see if he exists in real life...
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 00:32:37 by 12padams » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2012, 00:40:56 »

I asked my original question because, from my own years of experience, the statement that people were making ("dreaming of a lucid dream") simply couldn't happen.  To me based upon my direct experiences in the non-physical, it's a double negative statement.  I wanted to get some other perspectives from people who believed in the truth of that statement and to why they felt that way.

Thank you to those of you who honestly responded.  I have a much better idea now of what that statement means to you and why people see it as being truth.  It's all a matter of, like most things, perspective.  Smiley
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todd421757
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« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2012, 00:41:51 »

12padams,

Just be careful what you make a reality to you. If you make these simulated experiences a known reality to you, then it gets ingrained in your subconscious. At this point, it is very difficult to erase that belief construct from your subconscious. I know simulated experiences are not your goal. But, whenever you talk about them, you are programming your subconscious to have more of them. After this happens you will get the real experiences less frequent.

We self-hypnotize ourself constantly all day long. This is how we actually create our reality. Change all your thoughts to 100% conscious projections with no blackouts and nothing else. Keep your will strong all day long. I do not accept anything less. When Kobe Bryant goes out to play a basketball game, he only accepts the best for his reality. He doesn't believe in anything but the best.

I do wish you good fortune on making contact with that entity in real life. I hope someday someone can prove the non-physical reality to the world. That is a great goal you have. Just realize, life is short. Read the link below to read all the validations that have been posted here to get ideas what has and hasn't been done with validating the non-physical reality.

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_permanent_astral_topics/validation_thread-t25607.0.html
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 02:02:57 by todd421757 » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2012, 05:18:28 »

Hmm, I am going to jump in here and echo what todd is saying.

I understand that nothing is more sacred to an individual then their own personal mental model of reality. Releasing myself from my own mental models and reconstructing them, over and over again, has been indisputably the most stressful thing I have done thus far in my life. The ego does not like to be broken down only to be reformed in another's likeness. But like a muscle, it is this fraying and rebuilding that makes our mental models strong.

You are adept. You are good. Just I caution you that projection is a lifelong study. You are still very young. The deeper my understanding becomes, the deeper the mysteries become. If you look at most of the masters of the world, you find that the road did not end with an answer, but with a strong appreciation for existence and an unparalleled state of humbled joy.

I would hate to see you potentially build a cage for yourself in your own psyche. Such brilliance deserves to be unleashed. The subjective works because it is free to roam where it pleases.

Cheers,
Contenteo
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« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2012, 01:09:42 »

The deeper my understanding becomes, the deeper the mysteries become. If you look at most of the masters of the world, you find that the road did not end with an answer, but with a strong appreciation for existence and an unparalleled state of humbled joy.
Ain't that the truth.  For every answer I've found, two more questions have popped up.  LoL
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