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Author Topic: How to convert Lucid Dreams into an Astral Projections  (Read 49694 times)
Tombo
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« on: November 28, 2004, 14:14:00 »

Hi there!

Converting Lucid dreams into Astral Projections seems to be a promising way for people like myself, who do have great difficulty to relax completely when awake. This is especially the case since LD's are way easier to achieve then conscious Projections (at least for the average Person).
I raised this subject also cause it comes up time after time and seems to interest a lot of people.

So...

-Which techniques do you think are the best, to convert a Lucid Dream     into an Astral Projection?


Please feel free to add Experiences, Comments, Advice etc...

To make a start I share My own experience:

When the LD's ends I try to lay still. If I manage to stay mentally and physically relaxed, the vibrations may hit about 10-60 Seconds after I wake up. (I only did it 4 times yet)

Below I posted The reply RB gave on the subject: (Don't fear to re speak though wink )

1) What techniques do you recommend to convert a LD into an OBE? (Or were can I get Info on that matter ?)

2) Do you think this conversion-approach is something promising to do?

3) Is there any certain test I can perform while out of body to unfailingly determine if I'm having an Astral Projection or a LD?


G'day!

1. One way to convert is to 'feel' for your body. Another is to fall backwards in an LD. But conversion is hit or miss. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

2. Yes, its worth trying.

3. The only way to be certain is to induce an OBE exit from an awake state of consciousness and then to return for deliberate reentry. The dream mind is capable of producing almost perfect OBE dreams from start to finish, eg, you'll dream you wake up then make an obe exit, etc, but its all a dream. The only way to tell for sure is if there is no break in consciousness from start to finish.

Robert Bruce.
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clandestino
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« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2004, 08:49:11 »

Hi Tom,

For me anyway, "converting" to a lucid dream is simply a case of getting more clarity, or to put that another way, increasing my level of awareness until it is on a par with that I experience during waking conciousness.

To do this, I demand to have more clarity, just as the textbooks* recommend. As strange as it sounds, stating out aloud a demand like "Clarity -NOW !" whilst in a lucid dream, can have the desired effect. It doesn't always work, but you'd be surprised how effective it can be.

Converting to an OBE in the real time zone....now, I've never done that before...

Kind regards,
Mark

* Off the top of my head, I can't remember what "textbooks" these may be....My memory is shockingly bad. Though I'm sure I've read this "clarity" command somewhere (perhaps in astral dynamics) & it certainly works.
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« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2004, 08:49:11 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Leo Volont
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« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2004, 10:06:07 »

Lucid Dreams can be wonderful things in and of themselves. The Higher Self goes through a great deal of effort to make Big Lucid Dreams the pivotal points of one's Spiritual Development, and so I would be careful about nullifying each and every single Lucid Dream that would come along. However, I suppose that the Higher Self would be able to somehow effect the Astral Projections so that the same Spiritual Advancements could be attained... one way or the other.

Anyway, I was once able to turn a Lucid Dream into an Astral Projection. I think I used Sylvan Muldunes technique of once having become lucid, I put myself into the same position that I would think corresponded to the position of my sleeping body -- in this case I levitated up horizontally belly-up, back-down. And then I willed myself to rise up into the air. The Technique presupposes that this rising up will take the Astral Body up and away from the physical body, out of range of where the 'silver chord' which connects the two bodies can likely cause interference (I believe that they all say that one should get at least 20 feet from the physical body, or there is the problem of being whipped back into the body from any even minor emotional disturbance).

Anyway, I went upward like a rocket. In the Dream it was broad daylight and so it seemed that I went up so fast and high that I got above the atmosphere and could begin to see the black sky and the stars. This is when I crashed through to the Real Astral. It was still dark, but it was cloudy and I was only a few hundred feet above my house. There was a bit of the Mind-Split thing going on, and so when my maid in the kitchen rattled a few pots and pans, it woke me up for a second... but since I was well above the body I was not pulled entirely back into the body, and was able to re-establish my awareness in the Astral. I decided to get away from the house altogether and go to the local downtown Rail Station and Town Square. There were some subjective elements. Apparently the Local People were more proud of their Town then they ever let on, because in the Astral they have this huge Statue of an old town Hero. And near one store there were these demonic imps playing about. So in the future I made it a point not to shop at that particular store.
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paker7
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« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2004, 02:04:57 »

IMHO Lucid Dreams are Astral Projections.

The only difference is in the perception - if you think that you're in the astral - then you most probably are in the astral.
Thought = Reality  Cheesy

Another interesting thread:how to go realtime?
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« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2004, 04:17:16 »

Okay I am trying to put this into the correct words so forgive me if it comes out wrong.

I have experienced several LD to OBE instances.  Each time it started with me in a dream and realizing that I am dreaming.  To make it fully understood, I could at that moment in time be experiencing a dream and not just know I was asleep but could feel my body sleeping.  This being to the point where I could think in my dream that it was time to roll over in bed.  Then do so and continue my LD.

Now when I take an LD to an OBE I usually stop ever thing I am doing in the dream.  I take a very careful look around to see if I might want to stay first before going on.  When I have decided the dream just drops out and I find myself on the 3D blackness.  From there I go on an OBE trip.

I know Mr. Bruce that the dream mind can re-create an OBE experience but to me the 3D blackness that I end up in from a LD is the same as when I have experienced my few traditional OBE's.  It could just be a matter of awareness.
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shaman
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« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2004, 16:29:37 »

THe way you described the passage from LD to OBE is by actually starting to wake up. You can do exactly the same with everyy single normal dream every morning. As you notice that you are waking up, just stay in bed and don't move an inch and reach for that feeling of "sleep" and "dream" in which you were just before. Then start to reach for the sensation of free fall and the vibrations will come. I myself did that twice, but haven't much time in the morning to do that. The other problem is that of being unconfortable and having a need to move in bed or to go to the bathroom... Otherwise it should work. From normal sleep into OBE....
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clandestino
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« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2004, 13:32:25 »

Quote from: Paker7
IMHO Lucid Dreams are Astral Projections.

Agreed ! But I have noticed that even during a lucid dream, I will carry on pursuing the most bizzare set of circumstances. For example, 3 or 4 nights ago I woke up & realised "hang on, I'm dreaming", yet I continued to float high in the air of a chapel, bouncing between the wooden beams, chasing after some kind of insect(? can't really remember). At the time, I knew I was dreaming, & I knew I had full control, but I was still engaged in an activity that I wouldn't normally pursue under 100% waking conciousness. I "chose" to carry on with this strange dream.

I see OBE's as differing from lucid dreams, only in the level of awareness. The "astral" as such is just as real, in a dream, a day dream, or a full-blown OBE in my opinion.


Quote from: cainam_nazier
I have experienced several LD to OBE instances. Each time it started with me in a dream and realizing that I am dreaming. To make it fully understood, I could at that moment in time be experiencing a dream and not just know I was asleep but could feel my body sleeping. This being to the point where I could think in my dream that it was time to roll over in bed. Then do so and continue my LD.


Hi Cainam, hows things !

I've had this happen several times. I'll roll over, then slip into the same dream. Though, this leaves a blank patch in my memory. Its almost as if my other persona has been carrying on with the dream scenario, without my knowledge !

Sorry for getting a bit off topic....
Shaman, you say "reach for that feeling of sleep..." however, I have tried this, & (for me anyway) it only ends up with me being fully awake !! Have you got any more ideas that might help me (and others) here ?
thanks and kind regards,

Mark
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Tombo
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« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2004, 11:09:46 »

Quote from: paker7
IMHO Lucid Dreams are Astral Projections.

The only difference is in the perception - if you think that you're in the astral - then you most probably are in the astral.
Thought = Reality  Cheesy

Another interesting thread:how to go realtime?


What does you make to believe that? I mean, it is very well possible that the two are the same thing, but just to say it is so, is a bit easy I think. So could you please explain your viewpoint? After all it is certainly not a matter of course since there are quite some experienced Projectors like Robert Bruce as well as others who seem to be sure it is not the same thing!

Cheers Tom
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paker7
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« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2004, 17:50:13 »

Quote from: tombodenmann
Quote from: paker7
IMHO Lucid Dreams are Astral Projections.

The only difference is in the perception - if you think that you're in the astral - then you most probably are in the astral.
Thought = Reality  Cheesy

Another interesting thread:how to go realtime?


What does you make to believe that? I mean, it is very well possible that the two are the same thing, but just to say it is so, is a bit easy I think. So could you please explain your viewpoint? After all it is certainly not a matter of course since there are quite some experienced Projectors like Robert Bruce as well as others who seem to be sure it is not the same thing!

Cheers Tom


Let's define what we are talking about:

Dreaming:
Being in a different reality (The Astral) without being aware of this fact.

Lucid dreaming:
Knowing that what you see/experience is not a physical reality and most often believing that it is all created by your mind and happening "inside" (and therefore believing that nothing is real).

Astral travel/projection:
Exploring non physical realities and knowing that everything that you experience is "outside" - and no matter if created by you or not - everything is real.

OOBE:
Two definitions.

1. For me OOBE is every experience that does not involve my physical senses (dreaming,lucid dreaming,astral projection,real time projection etc).

2. For some people being out of body is exclusively being in Robert's "real time zone".



So if you meant to ask how to convert LD to AP - my answer is:

The only difference between LD and AP is a false opinion of being "inside" (LD) and a proper knowledge of exploring the "outside" (AP) - that is why IMHO LD and AP are exactly the same thing (just different terminology).

But if your question is how to convert LD to OOBE definition #2 then my reply would be:

Will yourself near your physical body and/or say loud "i am in the real time zone", be absolutely sure that you are here and you will be.
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« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2004, 09:58:08 »

Quote from: cainam_nazier


Now when I take an LD to an OBE I usually stop ever thing I am doing in the dream.  I take a very careful look around to see if I might want to stay first before going on.  When I have decided the dream just drops out and I find myself on the 3D blackness.  From there I go on an OBE trip.



Interesting.  I'll have to try that.
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Sampson
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« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2004, 14:19:43 »

Hi Everyone,
Hi tombodenmann, as requested I have copied my post from the 'A different view on OBE/AP: an article' thread over in the OBE Discussion forum to here:

Quote
Hi!
 
Quote
I would be extremely interested in knowing how any of you know the difference for sure.



All of my out of body experiences have so far been into what is called the RTZ (Real Time Zone) below are a some of the symptoms and attributes that I feel separate this experience from a dream for me:

Precursors to the projection are clear crisp sounds that resemble ripping Velcro and a sound similar to somebody walking on a gravel path - I experience sounds in my dreams but these are quite unlike the above and do not share their clarity.

I always exit through my head - I never experience this strange phenomenon when I dream.

I always have the same dimensions out of body, which are about the size of a tennis ball - In the dream state my body feels as if it has the same dimensions as it does in the physical, although on occasion this can change.

I always project into my bedroom - I rarely have dreams about my bedroom and when I do they are never as clear and vivid nor as simple and ordinary as when I leave my body. Another note here is that I have had an RTZ projection whilst staying away from home in a hotel, I projected out of body directly into the room in which I was staying.

Awareness and sensitivity to my environment is extremely heightened in all aspects - Although I experience my senses in the dream state they seem dulled in comparison to when I am out of the body.

Projection ends with a blackout - My dreams either tend to merge or fade into the next or I awake naturally after a REM/Dream cycle.

I suppose one could argue that an experience with characteristics of the above could be said to be a Ďspecial kind of recurring dreamí with very specific qualities.

I have had lucid dreams where I have projected too, these dreams served as a good comparison to what I would call my true RTZ experiences. The lucid dream projections shared all of the characteristics of a real projection but were much more toned down and felt false and a weak copy in contrast.

In these lucid dream projections itís almost as if I am applying my own interpretation of how I feel the projection experience should follow rather than experiencing the associated phenomena as a separate accompaniment to the true experience. The lucid dream projections also took place in locations other than my bedroom, these locations were vague and unfamiliar and very dream like.

I feel that dreams always serve a purpose of some kind, but when I project I tend to just sit in my tennis ball like form near my head, feet or in another part of the room in the quiet and just peacfully observe, this is quite unlike my dreams and is a very conscious experience.

I feel that I know the difference between the two for sure mainly through having the experience itself, I wish I could share that feeling with others but unfortunately I canít  Sad .


Cheers

S
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« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2004, 21:57:30 »

Hello people,

Just a quick question

Bruce stated that "The only way to tell for sure is if there is no break in consciousness from start to finish. "

Does he mean here that to be sure it is an OBE, you have to be sure there is a continuous flow of consciousness? Or not? (im confused)
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« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2004, 01:13:09 »

Hi all,

I think OBE and LD are quite different.

OBE = public reality (ie a stable shared collective environment)
LD = private reality (ie an unstable private individual fantasy)

Try this simple test, whilst LD/OBE.  If you find yourself in a street, look at one of the street signs and read it.  Then look away and look back at the street sign.

Now if you are LD then each time you look at the street sign you will see a different name.  I absolutely guarantee it.  However, if you are OBE you will always see the same street name.

I don't know why this happens, but it does.

In laboratory experiments, some OBE'rs have been able to read numbers placed out of physical sight and report the number back to the experimenters.  However, if every time they looked at the number it changed, then they would not be able to do this.

In LD the number changes every time you look at it.

Try it!  wink
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Tombo
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« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2004, 08:07:06 »

Quote from: paker7

Let's define what we are talking about:

Dreaming:
Being in a different reality (The Astral) without being aware of this fact.

Lucid dreaming:
Knowing that what you see/experience is not a physical reality and most often believing that it is all created by your mind and happening "inside" (and therefore believing that nothing is real).

Astral travel/projection:
Exploring non physical realities and knowing that everything that you experience is "outside" - and no matter if created by you or not - everything is real.

OOBE:
Two definitions.

1. For me OOBE is every experience that does not involve my physical senses (dreaming,lucid dreaming,astral projection,real time projection etc).

2. For some people being out of body is exclusively being in Robert's "real time zone".



So if you meant to ask how to convert LD to AP - my answer is:

The only difference between LD and AP is a false opinion of being "inside" (LD) and a proper knowledge of exploring the "outside" (AP) - that is why IMHO LD and AP are exactly the same thing (just different terminology).

But if your question is how to convert LD to OOBE definition #2 then my reply would be:

Will yourself near your physical body and/or say loud "i am in the real time zone", be absolutely sure that you are here and you will be.


So, you said that on an Astral projection one knows everything is real while in a LD one believes it is no real (although it is), did I understood you right?
So my question then would be: How can I know (see/realize) that everthing in the LD is real? (Since that would make it a Astral Projection, right?)

Cheers Tom
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Tombo
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« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2004, 08:15:45 »

Quote from: Xetrov
Hello people,

Just a quick question

Bruce stated that "The only way to tell for sure is if there is no break in consciousness from start to finish. "

Does he mean here that to be sure it is an OBE, you have to be sure there is a continuous flow of consciousness? Or not? (im confused)


As I understand it, he means that your conscious never blacks out (Falls asleep) Meaning that you are awake then you lay down induce a Projection and afterwards you come "back" stand up and remember the whole thing without a gap.
On the other hand I don't see any difference between WILD and Astral Projection then (I'm confused too...), so I might be wrong here.
Cheers Tom
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« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2004, 11:51:32 »

Quote from: tombodenmann
Quote from: paker7

Let's define what we are talking about:

Dreaming:
Being in a different reality (The Astral) without being aware of this fact.

Lucid dreaming:
Knowing that what you see/experience is not a physical reality and most often believing that it is all created by your mind and happening "inside" (and therefore believing that nothing is real).

Astral travel/projection:
Exploring non physical realities and knowing that everything that you experience is "outside" - and no matter if created by you or not - everything is real.

OOBE:
Two definitions.

1. For me OOBE is every experience that does not involve my physical senses (dreaming,lucid dreaming,astral projection,real time projection etc).

2. For some people being out of body is exclusively being in Robert's "real time zone".



So if you meant to ask how to convert LD to AP - my answer is:

The only difference between LD and AP is a false opinion of being "inside" (LD) and a proper knowledge of exploring the "outside" (AP) - that is why IMHO LD and AP are exactly the same thing (just different terminology).

But if your question is how to convert LD to OOBE definition #2 then my reply would be:

Will yourself near your physical body and/or say loud "i am in the real time zone", be absolutely sure that you are here and you will be.


So, you said that on an Astral projection one knows everything is real while in a LD one believes it is no real (although it is), did I understood you right?


Yes  Cool

Quote from: tombodenmann

So my question then would be: How can I know (see/realize) that everthing in the LD is real? (Since that would make it a Astral Projection, right?)

Cheers Tom


I have a question for you:

What do you think is real and what is unreal ?

My expanded definition of these words :
Everything that happens or exists is real and there is no such thing as an "unreal thing".

For example : imagine a beautiful lady standing next to you - you just created her in the astral dimension and she is as real as you are, she exists in the astral therefore she is real.

You can even create your physical reality - first create something or some situation in the astral and then pump it with energy and will it to the physical dimension.

In the astral reality people very often think that if the environment is perfectly stable then it must be more real than some other completely fluid area.

I have a theory:
The stability of an astral area is proportional to the number of entities in that area.

When you are alone in the astral - you can do everything, but if someone is with you there - his subconsious mind may think that it is impossible to do something that you want to do and this can potentially block some of your creations and your private "reality fluctuations".

If you can, just go to The Park in F27 (always very crowded place) and try to change something big and important - i'm pretty sure that you will fail.
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« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2004, 18:31:09 »

Quote
I have a question for you:

What do you think is real and what is unreal ?
My expanded definition of these words :
Everything that happens or exists is real and there is no such thing as an "unreal thing
".

 O.k. I try to answer this delicate question. I agree that everything that you experience is real for you per se. But is it real for others? Real is probably the wrong word to describe what I meant but I'll try:
I consider something real (in the context of LD/OBE) when it is perceivable by two independent consciousness, since it then appears to have a substance on it's own which is not generated by my consciousness.
On the other hand if this is not possible I have no reason to assume it has a substance on its own. I then would it label unreal/ fantasy/ internal experience. Without demeaning this internal experience I want to add.

Quote
For example : imagine a beautiful lady standing next to you - you just created her in the astral dimension and she is as real as you are, she exists in the astral therefore she is real.
If I imagine a beautiful lady and then somebody, experienced enough can go to the astral and find out her hair color how she looks etc.. then I would consider it to be a real lady in the above sense. If that is not possible I would label it unreal lady.

Quote
You can even create your physical reality - first create something or some situation in the astral and then pump it with energy and will it to the physical dimension.

In the astral reality people very often think that if the environment is perfectly stable then it must be more real than some other completely fluid area.

I have a theory:
The stability of an astral area is proportional to the number of entities in that area.

When you are alone in the astral - you can do everything, but if someone is with you there - his subconscious mind may think that it is impossible to do something that you want to do and this can potentially block some of your creations and your private "reality fluctuations".

Nice theorie, It should be possible to test if you are right.

Quote
If you can, just go to The Park in F27 (always very crowded place) and try to change something big and important - i'm pretty sure that you will fail

What is F27?  huh  How can I get there?

Cheers Tom
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« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2004, 05:14:27 »

Quote from: tombodenmann
Quote
I have a question for you:

What do you think is real and what is unreal ?
My expanded definition of these words :
Everything that happens or exists is real and there is no such thing as an "unreal thing".


I consider something real (in the context of LD/OBE) when it is perceivable by two independent consciousness, since it then appears to have a substance on it's own which is not generated by my consciousness.

So if you couldn't verify your experience by talking with other astral travellers who were there with you - would you be completely sure that it was only your imagination, only in your mind ?

What if those other astral projectors would agree with you on anything except one small detail.

For example - you saw a herd of flying pink elephants flying around you all the time, but your friends didn't.

Who is able to decide whether you saw something that wasn't there or your companions had trouble with seeing the elephants that were there ?

If their minds couldn't accept the possibility of existence of flying pink elephants, they wouldn't be able to see those elephants.

Quote from: tombodenmann

Quote
For example : imagine a beautiful lady standing next to you - you just created her in the astral dimension and she is as real as you are, she exists in the astral therefore she is real.


If I imagine a beautiful lady and then somebody, experienced enough can go to the astral and find out her hair color how she looks etc.. then I would consider it to be a real lady in the above sense. If that is not possible I would label it unreal lady.

And "experienced enough" would need to mean 100% objective.
If not - he would probably distort the reality and mix your perception of beauty with his.

Quote from: tombodenmann

Quote
If you can, just go to The Park in F27 (always very crowded place) and try to change something big and important - i'm pretty sure that you will fail

What is F27?  huh  How can I get there?


http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/what.html

http://thegatewayexperience.com/monroeprograms/exploration27.html
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« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2004, 12:37:00 »

Quote
So if you couldn't verify your experience by talking with other astral travelers who were there with you - would you be completely sure that it was only your imagination, only in your mind ?

No I actually would have no clue if it is my mind or not!

Quote
What if those other astral projectors would agree with you on anything except one small detail.

Then I would start to believe that it is not created by my mind exept maybe the little detail.

Code:
For example - you saw a herd of flying pink elephants flying around you all the time, but your friends didn't
Who is able to decide whether you saw something that wasn't there or your companions had trouble with seeing the elephants that were there ?

Hmmm, No idea. I guess it is not possible to decide

Quote
If their minds couldn't accept the possibility of existence of flying pink elephants, they wouldn't be able to see those elephants.

Yeah, thats indeed possible

Quote
And "experienced enough" would need to mean 100% objective.
If not - he would probably distort the reality and mix your perception of beauty with his.

Well yeah it probably would mean 100 % objective (if thats possible at all...)

Well you got me confused! Maybe there is no such thing as objective or real in the astral, Maybe it is like a merging scale. on the other hand there seem to be real (Not created by mind(s)) things there like other Spirits, Projectors, guides etc... there.


Code:
http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/what.html

http://thegatewayexperience.com/monroeprograms/exploration27.html
Thanks paker7!

Cheers Tom
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catmeow
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« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2004, 00:38:36 »

Hi all

LD vs OBE.  Ok, this is a delicate area for some on this board, so please don't get upset if I say anything you disagree with!

Quote from: parker7
Let's define what we are talking about:

Dreaming:
Being in a different reality (The Astral) without being aware of this fact.

Lucid dreaming:
Knowing that what you see/experience is not a physical reality and most often believing that it is all created by your mind and happening "inside" (and therefore believing that nothing is real).

Astral travel/projection:
Exploring non physical realities and knowing that everything that you experience is "outside" - and no matter if created by you or not - everything is real.

OOBE:
Two definitions.

1. For me OOBE is every experience that does not involve my physical senses (dreaming,lucid dreaming,astral projection,real time projection etc).

2. For some people being out of body is exclusively being in Robert's "real time zone".  

Ok, by this definition, everything basically is "real".  There is no such thing as "unreal".  I have no problem with this idea.  In fact many people on this board share this belief that dreams have a "reality" which is just as valid as physical "reality", and I completely respect the viewpoint.

But by this definition of "reality" we have now lost a word from the English language, namely "real"!  It no longer has any meaning, since everything is "real".  There is no such thing as "unreal", and therefore there can be no such thing as "real".  The word has disappeared.

For this reason, on this board I always prefix the word reality with a qualifier, such as "private" or "public".  I use the following terms interchangeably:

private reality = personal reality = internal reality
public reality = shared reality = common reality = concensus reality

So whenever I use the word "reality" (since I know it is contentious) I always prefix it with one of these terms. By doing this, I have effectively replaced the terms "unreal" and "real" with "private" and "public".   For me at least, talking about "private " and "public" is much more helpful than talking about "unreal" and "real".  

Also, I go a little further and use this distinction, between "private" and "public" (in main) as the definition of the terms "subjective" and "objective".  I have posted about this before in the OBE forums:

Quote from: catmeow
Quote from: tombodenmann
Interesting I gave some comments on the problems of definitions in the reply to Xetrov. What do you mean by subjective and objective?

I'm glad you asked that!

My definition of subjective is "private" and objective is "public". In other words a subjective experience is a personal, private experience, not shared by others, occuring in a private reality. On the other hand an objective experience is a public experience, occurring in some sort of shared or concensus reality. There has to be a very strong degree of concensus for something to be classified as "objective", in other words a lot of people have to share the experience, not just two (as in the dream I shared with my mother).

The physical world is truly objective, since we all agree on it. By and large our dreams are subjective because we tend not to share them with anyone. Occasionally two people may share a dream, but this can be explained as two private dreams linked together by ESP. So a shared dream like this would probably rate as "subjective" by my definition, because it isn't shared by everyone.

According to many authors, and also a number of people on this board, LD and OBE are quite (even utterly) different experiences.  

I think LD=private and OBE=public.  LD takes place in a private world, with constantly shifting fantasy elements.  OBE on the other hand takes place in a public world with less fantasy elements and more stability.

There are other differences of course.  I have never heard of anyone experiencing 360 degree (spherical vision) during LD, whilst I have read a number of reports of this occurring during traditional OBE's.  Also, as I recently posted, if you try to read and re-read a street sign during LD you will always see a different street name every time you look at the sign.  Try it!  During OBE such shifts do not tend to happen.

IMHO there is a definite, meaningful and significant difference between LD and OBE.  They are different experiences.  It is logically incorrect  to say that since these are both "real" experiences they are therefore both the same experience.   This simply doesn't follow.

I also happen to believe there is a biological difference (LD=physical/etheric consciousness, OBE=astral consciousness) as taught by RB, but this is a different discussion altogether. Cheesy

catmeow
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Little Star Orion
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« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2004, 09:54:23 »

Hi,
I have had lucid dreams since I was a small child. I had always believed I was in a different world, a real world somewhere out there in a different dimension.
Then I began to read about the theme, I found it quite frustrating how everyone told different things. Because of what I red, I have believed for a while that lucid dreams where noting more then dreams with more consciousness.
But it had a very negative effect upon my lucid dreams, they did disappear.
When I found back my believe in lucid dreams, that it is just like an out of bod experience a way to explore a whole different world, that my lucid dreams did come back.
I did a course to learn to astral project/or induce a out of body experience, but till now I did not had one.

But now I even believe it more, that one can astral travel, and it does not matter if one enters the astral by a lucid dream or an out of body experience.

regards,
Little Star Orion
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« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2004, 11:54:46 »

Thank you every body for the input so far. I'm very aware that one should not demean the Lucid Dream by itself and that a lucid Dream and a Astral Projection are probably two sides of the same coin. Therefore I think I'll reformulate my initial question into...........

..............What techniques do you use, once you notice have a Lucid Dream, to heighten your awareness and gain more control and clarity and/or to shift from a mainly self-created world into a more "public" area and/or to shift into specific realms such as the RTZ or upper Astral.

I guess this is the  less restricting and more useful Question  wink
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« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2005, 04:34:32 »

i may have a way to "convert" LD into OOBE. u must have "power", power is intent and along with clarity they become more. soo... take an object in your dream, prefibly one u can "hold" ur attention on easly, then be calm, feel urself and the object keeping it to far to tutch, feel it with ur mind. after that let everything fall away.  

this works well with windows in a dream look into it, then beyond, then further, next thing u know ur somewhere clearer. another way is to assume the possision that u do when sleeping, let ur dream continue then fall asleep within ur dream then dream u wake up, still dreaming but think to ur self that (what, where ever) u r is real intend ur destination

the most poerfull things wile dreaming are clarity, attention, intent, no fear, faith in one's own self.
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« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2005, 09:41:59 »

My method for converting LDs into OBEs is that in the LD, I just concentrate on my third eye area, the dream disappears, all is left is the blackness, I feel the consciousness pull up to the third eye area, connect it to the top of head, feel the pop, feel the vibes, then I come out.
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« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2005, 09:43:53 »

Quote from: Potential
TIBETAN YOGA
AND SECRET DOCTRINES

BOOK III
THE PATH OF KNOWLEDGE: THE YOGA OF THE SIX DOCTRINES

CHAPTER III: THE DOCTRINE OF THE DREAM-STATE


(1) The third doctrine, concerning the Dream-state, consisteth
of four parts: Comprehending; Transmuting; Realizing the Dream-
state to be Maya; and meditating on the Thatness of the dream-
state.

[PART I: COMPREHENDING THE NATURE OF THE DREAM-STATE]

(2) The first part, Comprehending [the nature of the Dream-
state] compriseth three practices: Comprehending it by the Power
of Resolution, Comprehending it by the Power of Breath, and
Comprehending it by the Power of Visualization.

[Practice I: Comprehending It By The Power of Resolution]

(3) With respect to the first, Comprehending it by the Power
of Resolution, that which has been called 'the initial
comprehending of the dream', referreth to resolving to maintain
unbroken continuity of consciousness [throughout both the waking-
state and the dream-state].
(4) In other words, under all conditions during the day [or
waking-state] hold to the concept that all things are of the
substance of dreams and that thou must realize their true nature.
(5) Then, at night, when about to sleep, pray to the Guru that
thou mayest be enabled to comprehend the dream-state; and firmly
resolve that thou wilt comprehend it. By meditating thusly, one is
certain to comprehend it.
(6) It hath further been said [in this connection]: 'All
things are the result of causes; they depend wholly upon
resolutions [or motives]'

[PRACTICE 2: COMPREHENDING IT BY THE POWER OF BREATH]

(7) In the second practice, Comprehending it by the Power of
Breath, the methods are: Sleep on the right side, as a lion doth.
With the thumb and the ring-finger of the right hand press the
pulsation of the throat arteries; stop the nostrils with the
fingers [of the left hand] ; and let the saliva collect in the
throat. {As a result of these methods, the yogin enjoys as vivid
consciousness in the dream-state as in the waking-state; and in
passing from one state to another experiences no break in the
continuity of memory. Thereby the content of the dream-state is
found to be quite the same as the content of the waking-state, in
that it is wholly phenomenal and therefore illusory...}

[PRACTICE 3: COMPREHENDING IT BY THE POWER OF VISUALIZATION]

(Cool The third practice, Comprehending it by the Power of
Visualization, consisteth of these processes: The visualization
itself; deriving the Greatest Benefit from the Visualization; And
preventing the Spreading-out of the Dream-Content (this last
process refers to overcoming the tendency of dreams to lose their
coherence, or to be lost to memory upon waking.).

[THE VISUALIZATION ITSELF]

(9) In the first, the Visualization Itself, the method is as
followeth:
Thinking that thou art thyself the deity Vajra-Yogini,
visualize in the throat psychic-center the syllable AH, red of
colour and vividly radiant, as being the real embodiment of Divine
Speech. (Midway between the heart psychic-center and that of the
throat, in a space about four inches long, a tube-like psychic-
organ is said to exist. If the vital force be quiescent within it,
sleep ensues; and if the vital-force be in motion within it, dreams
occur. Hence the visualization chiefly concerns the throat
psychic-center.)
(10) By mentally concentrating on the radiance of the AH, and
recognizing every phenomenal thing to be in essence like forms
reflected in a mirror, which, though apparent, have no real
existence of themselves, one comprehendeth the dream.

[DERIVING THE GREATEST BENEFIT FROM THE VISUALIZATION]

(11) In the second, for Deriving the Greatest Benefit from the
Visualization, the method is as followeth:
At nightfall, [strive to] comprehend the nature of the dream-
state by means of the visualization just described above. At dawn
practice the pot-shaped breathing seven times. Resolve [or try]
eleven times to comprehend the nature of the dream-state. Then
concentrate the mind upon a dot, like unto a bony substance, white
of colour, situated between the eyebrows. (The visualization of the
dot is, in this practice, chiefly for the purpose of attaining
mental concentration, or one-pointedness of mind.)
(12) If one be of plethoric temperament, the dot is to be
visualized as being red of colour; If one be of nervous
temperament, the dot is to be visualized as being green of colour.
(13) If by these means the nature of the dream-state be not
comprehended, then proceed as followeth:
At nightfall meditate upon the dot. In the morning practice
twenty-one 'pot-shaped' breathings. Make twenty-one resolves (or
efforts) to comprehend the nature of the dream-state. Then, by
concentrating the mind on a black dot, the size of an ordinary
pill, as being situated at the base of the generative organ, one
will be enabled to comprehend the nature of the dream-state.

[PREVENTING THE SPREADING OUT OF THE DREAM CONTENT]

(14) Preventing the Spreading-out of the Dream-Content hath
four divisions: The Spreading-out into the Waking-State, the
Spreading-out because of Fatigue [from the exercises], the
Spreading-out because of Physical or Mental Affliction, and the
Spreading-out into negativeness.
(15) The Spreading-out into the Waking-state occureth when one
is about to comprehend the dream, in view of thinking that it must
be comprehended, and then waketh up.
(16) The antidote for this is to eat nutritious food and to
perform bodily work [or exercise] until fatigued. Thereby sleep
becometh deeper; and that cureth it.
(17) The Spreading-out because of fatigue occurreth when a
dream recurreth frequently without any change of content.
(18) The antidote here is to meditate often upon that dream
and to resolve most firmly to comprehend its essential nature;
amalgamating in the process the 'pot-shaped' breathing-exercise
with the visualization of the dot between the eyebrows. (The
purpose of this combination of exercises is to gain better control
of the mind, for indomitable mental control prevents and cures all
the various spreadings-out of the content of the dream.)
(19) The Spreading-out because of Physical or Mental
affliction occureth when one dreameth many dreams and recollecteth
nothing of them upon waking.
(20) The antidote here is to avoid pollutions and impurities,
to take the initiation of Samadhi, and to visualize the dot as
being inside the root of the organ of generation. Thereby this
spreading-out will be cured.
(21) The spreading-out into Negativeness is the
disinclination of dreams to come.
(22) To overcome this, visualize, whilst meditating upon the
'pot-shaped', the dot as being in the root of the generative organ;
and, in particular, with propitiatory offerings the Viras and the
Dakinis.

[PART II: TRANSMUTING THE DREAM-CONTENT]

(23) In the second part, the Transmutating, as it is called,
the process is as followeth:
If, for example, the dream be about fire, think, 'what fear
can there be of fire which ocurreth in a dream!' Holding to this
thought, trample upon the fire. tread under foot whatever be
dreamt.
(24) After having gained proficiency in this, then turn the
thought to the various Buddha Realms [thinking that they are
attainable].
(25) Accordingly, when about to sleep, visualize a red dot as
being within the throat psychic-center, and firmly believe that
thereby thou shalt see whichever of these realms thou desirest to
see, with all its characteristics, most vividly.

(26) By concentrating the mind thus, one beholdeth the Buddha
Realm which one hath wished to behold--The Tush:ta Heaven, or the
Happy Western realm. or that called 'Happy to Know', or any other
of the realms.
(27) This practice serveth as a test of efficiency [in the art
of transmuting dreams.
(28)

[PART III: REALIZING THE DREAM-STATE, OR DREAM-CONTENT, TO BE MAYA]

(28) The third part, Realizing the Dream-State [or Dream-
Content] to be Maya, hath been expounded as followeth:

'At the outset, in the process of realizing it to be Maya,
abandon all feelings of fear [or dread];
And, if the dream be of fire, transform the fire into water,
the antidote of fire.
And if the dream be of minute objects, transform them into
large objects;
Or if the dream be of large objects, transform them into small
objects:
Thereby one comprehendeth the nature of dimensions.
And if the dream be of a single thing, transform it into many
things;
Or if the dream be of many things, transform them into a
single thing:
[Thereby one comprehendeth the nature of plurality and of unity.]
Continue such practices until thoroughly proficient in them.'

(29) Then by visualizing one's own body as seen in the dream-
state, and all other bodies similarly seen, as being Maya-like
bodies of deities, they will be realized to be so.

[PART IV: MEDITATING UPON THE THATNESS OF THE DREAM-STATE]

(30) The fourth part, meditating upon the Thatness of the
Dream-State, is, as hath been said, 'to meditate upon the real
essence of the thatness'; And thereby, the dream propensities,
whence arise whatever is seen in dreams as appearances of deities,
are purified.
(31) By concentrating the mind upon the forms of the deities
seen in the dream-state, and by keeping the mind free of thoughts,
in the quiescent condition, the forms of the deities are attuned to
the non-thought condition of mind; and thereby dawneth the Clear
Light, of which the essence is of the Voidness.
(32) If one attain mastery of this process, then, whether in
the sleeping-state or in the waking-state, one realizeth both
states to be illusory [ in so far as their content are concerned];
and all phenomenon will be known to be born of the Clear Light
[which is the noumenal reality sustaining the Maya],

[Here endeth The Doctrine of Dreams.]
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