LDs are not OBEs

[Astral316]

And of course the post discussing the thread subject is glazed over for the more juicy controversial material of he said, she said.

Is this a matter of rallying up random scientists that don't believe there's any major metaphysical difference between LDs and OBEs? In that case I'd be interested to hear what Campbell has to say about this.

[Summerlander]

Campbell says it's the same excrement.

[Xanth]

In an attempt to salvage the thread... let's go in this direction.

How about we compare the two "types" (and I use that term BEYOND loosely) experiences?

What can you do in a Lucid Dream?  What does a Lucid Dream feel like (and here's the kicker part..) "to you"?
What can you do in an OBE/AP?  What does an OBE/AP feel like "to you"?

[Xanth]

What can you do in a Lucid Dream?  What does a Lucid Dream feel like (and here's the kicker part..) "to you"?

I have control over my environment... I can fly... I can manipulate just about anything with a simple thought... I can gain information through talking to other people around me.
A Lucid Dream feels just like I feel right this very second... the difference being I don't fully realize that I'm a physical person and I don't have complete access to my waking awareness, but I know I'm "asleep".

What can you do in an OBE/AP?  What does an OBE/AP feel like "to you"?

Same as above... except I do have access to all that is physically me.

My conclusion that I draw from it?  They're the same thing, the difference being the quality of consciousness of the experiencer. 
If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck... it's a duck.

[Summerlander]

1 - Anything I want. It feels like I'm elsewhere other than lying in bed (where I usually sleep).

2 - Anything I want. It feels like I'm elsewhere other than lying in bed (where I usually project from).

Conclusion:

Read my signature!

Also, check this out:
http://48lucid-dream.blogspot.com/

"While dream control and dream awareness are correlated, neither requires the other—LaBerge has found dreams which exhibit one clearly without the capacity for the other; also, in some dreams where the dreamer is lucid and aware they could exercise control, they choose simply to observe.[17] In 1992, a study by Deirdre Barrett examined whether lucid dreams contained four "corollaries" of lucidity: knowing that dreamt people are indeed dreamt, that objects won't persist beyond waking, that physical laws need not apply, and having clear memory of the waking world, and found less than a quarter of lucidity accounts exhibited all four. A related and reciprocal category of dreams that are lucid in terms of some of these four corollaries, but miss the realization that "I'm dreaming" were also reported. Scores on these corollaries and correctly identifying the experience as a dream increased with lucidity experience."

You will find a lot more there, folks...

[Ssergiu]

1 - Anything I want. It feels like I'm elsewhere other than lying in bed (where I usually sleep).

2 - Anything I want. It feels like I'm elsewhere other than lying in bed (where I usually project from).

Conclusion:

Read my signature!

Also, check this out:
http://48lucid-dream.blogspot.com/

That site is interesting. Actually exactly what I wanted to read up on! However, there are thousands of mistakes  A lot of misspelled words! "madatiation" "feith" "wors" "then"

[Summerlander]

LOL!

Yeah...it's a shame. But yeah, there is a good chance that all we're doing is just dreaming...a peculiar or distinct form of dreaming from the 'normal' dreaming. That is all the Phase could be! Wouldn't you agree, Ssergiu, my man?

"In a study of fourteen lucid dreamers performed in 1991, people who perform wake-initiated lucid dreams operation (WILD) reported experiences consistent with aspects of out-of-body experiences such as floating above their beds and the feeling of leaving their bodies. Due to the phenomenological overlap between lucid dreams, near-death experiences, and out-of-body experiences, researchers say they believe a protocol could be developed to induce a lucid dream similar to a near-death experience in the laboratory.

According to Buddhist teachers, the experience of lucidity helps us to understand the unreality of phenomena, which would otherwise be overwhelming during dream or the death experience."

More from that site. ^^^

 

[Ssergiu]

LOL!

Yeah...it's a shame. But yeah, there is a good chance that all we're doing is just dreaming...a peculiar or distinct form of dreaming from the 'normal' dreaming. That is all the Phase could be! Wouldn't you agree, Ssergiu, my man?

If we are dreaming, this dream is too stable, but then again, it could feel like this when we die. Waking up from a dream feels weird as we came back in a world that has its own set of rules and things don't add up. Probably, especially those who are not used to the Phase, we will feel the same about our life as it is not very similar to our previous "dream"'s rules.. although we can make the meta-physical be like this. Did this make any sense? lol

[Summerlander]

Yes, those who are not used to lucidity may find the death transition confusing...poor souls!

But, death is oblivion. You won't feel a thing. You...no more! There is nothing after death...hopefully!

More from that site:

"The wake-initiated lucid dream occurs when "the sleeper enters REM sleep with unbroken self-awareness directly from the waking state". There are many techniques aimed at entering a WILD. The key to these techniques is recognizing the hypnagogic stage, which is within the border of being awake and being asleep. If a person is successful in staying aware while this stage occurs, that person will eventually enter the dream state while being fully aware that it is a dream.

There are key times at which this state is best entered; while success at normal bedtime after having been awake all day is very difficult, it is relatively easy after sleeping for 3–7 hours or in the afternoon during a nap. Techniques for inducing WILDs abound. Dreamers may count, envision themselves climbing or descending stairs, chant to themselves, control their breathing, count their breaths to keep their thoughts from drifting, concentrate on relaxing their body from their toes to their head, or allow images to flow through their "mind's eye" and envision themselves jumping into the image to maintain concentration and keep their mind awake, while still being calm enough to let their bodies sleep.

During the actual transition into the dream state, dreamers are likely to experience sleep paralysis, including rapid vibrations, a sequence of loud sounds, and a feeling of twirling into another state of body awareness, or of "drifting off into another dimension", or like passing the interface between water into air, face front, body first, or the gradual sharpening and becoming "real" of images or scenes they are thinking of and trying to visualize gradually, which they can actually "see", instead of the indefinite sensations they feel when trying to imagine something while wide awake.

Brilliant!

[Ssergiu]

Yes, those who are not used to lucidity may find the death transition confusing...poor souls!

But, death is oblivion. You won't feel a thing. You...no more! There is nothing after death...hopefully!

"souls"....

Anyway, I think I want to have some fun before oblivion.  Let's stay on topic though, we've got fb for that.  I still had to tell you something...

[Summerlander]

Ok, I hope you tell me soon on Facebook. By the way, we are on topic. We have just shown that OOBE = Lucid dream.

More:

"During REM sleep the body paralyzes itself as a protection mechanism in order to prevent the movements which occur in the dream from causing the physical body to move. However, it is possible for this mechanism to be triggered before, during, or after normal sleep while the brain awakens. This can lead to a state where a person is lying in bed and feels paralyzed. Hypnagogic hallucination may occur in this state, especially auditory ones. Effects of sleep paralysis include heaviness or inability to move the muscles, rushing or pulsating noises, and brief hypnogogic imagery. Experiencing sleep paralysis is a necessary part of WILD, in which dreamers essentially detach their "dream" body from the paralyzed one. Also see OBE or Out-Of-Body-Experience, opposing the scientific theory of these occurrences stating that the paralysis is actually an occurrence to one who is already "separated" from their physical body meaning that "physical action potentials" have no effect here but "mental actions" do—a hint given that those who are finding difficulty moving are using the wrong "mechanism"."

[Xanth]

If we are dreaming, this dream is too stable, but then again, it could feel like this when we die. Waking up from a dream feels weird as we came back in a world that has its own set of rules and things don't add up. Probably, especially those who are not used to the Phase, we will feel the same about our life as it is not very similar to our previous "dream"'s rules.. although we can make the meta-physical be like this. Did this make any sense? lol

Well, I'll tell ya... when you ask "if we are dreaming, this dream is too stable"...
When I'm experiencing a dream while it's happening, it feels *EXACTLY* like I do right now.  There's, literally, no difference.

I actually just found a really well written article on another site:  http://www.astralvoyage.com/projection/difference.html
I liked it so much I just posted it to my own website.  The author, Anne, describes it in the first paragraph that she believes the difference is which "mind" is in control (conscious or subconscious minds) during the experience, which is really a great way to describe it.

If your subconscious mind is in full control, it's a dream experience.
If your conscious mind is in full control, it's an astral experience.
Then there's the range of combinations between those two, which would be lucid experiences of varying degrees.

It's all about "internalizing" the experience instead of "externalizing" them.  These experiences aren't something you do... they're a state of mind YOU ARE.
You don't HAVE an astral projection... you ARE astrally aware (or in Anne's case, your conscious mind is in full control).

[Ssergiu]

Nice said, Xanth! I guess it works that way too.  What I always meant by losing awareness was exactly the fact that your subconscious mind is taking over.

[Summerlander]

That makes sense. Also, let's remember that non-lucid dreams can be vivid and whatever happens in them is completely accepted by the brain to be really happening. When one is aware of dreaming, however, brain parts that are usually active during the waking state have displayed similar activity. It's as if the conscious is analysing the unconscious. This is also why I've used the brain hemispheres hypothesis as a possible explanation for the differences between Mode 1 and Mode 2:

There is, of course, the possibility that one never really leaves the body as the experience could be an illusion created by the brain, and that, while dreams and imagination could be a product of abundant activity in the right hemisphere of the brain, Mode 1 OOBEs would be a product of the left hemisphere and hence the reason why they are 'more true to life' so to speak. Experiences conducted with split-brain individuals where dreaming is concerned seemingly strengthen the feasibility of such explanation as their dreaming was found to be unimaginative and often tied to reality.

- Summerlander

More from that link:

"OBEs induced from waking (with the intention of achieving Astral Projection) and lucid dreams induced from waking cover such similar ground that common misinterpretation of one as the other (or even equivalence) can be hypothesized. Realistic-seeming yet physically impossible impressions of flying, time-traveling or walking through the walls of an environment matching one's bedroom are equally hallmarks of either. (As those who have experienced them will attest, neither "feels" like ordinary dreams at all.) Their induction techniques are similar, and both are easier to perform at times typical for afternoon naps and late morning REM cycles."

[Pauli2]

I took a look at the T Campbell forum and found one post from him, where he says that
LDs and OBEs "are fundamentally very similar". Similar but NOT identical. He then
continues with mentioning their main differences. It seems that Campbell thinks the
difference between LDs and OBEs are smaller than some other astral matter experts.
But still, he view them as having differences, though small such.

So to keep with the subject:

The list of skilled people grows. They have all noticed that LDs are not OBEs:
Buhlman, Waggoner, Peterson, Gabbard & Twemlow, Scott Rogo, LaBerge,
Monroe, Campbell, Levitan and Susan Blackmore.